#1109 - Matthew Walker

April 25, 2018

Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon.

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All right.

My guest today is a sleep doctor and I said at the beginning this podcast is a fucking good one does this one I knew about the importance of sleep I knew it was huge but I know way more now and I'm stunned I mean this is a this is it I'm going to shut the fuck up and introduce our guest Dr. Matthew Walker.

The Joe Rogan Experience

And we're live. What's going on? Did you sleep well last night? I did. I didn't sleep too badly one half of your brain will actually not sleep as deeply than the other when you're sleeping in unusual room like a hotel room no I'll do three different hotels in a week cuz I'll do like a Thursday Friday Saturday like with jigs and then by the time Sunday rolls around I'm a mess in rough shape is that what it is and it's a threat detection thing that if you look at other species they can do this much more impressively than we can so dull fins or any sort of sea dwelling mammal can actually sleep with half a brain so 1/2 of that brain goes into deep sleep the other half as wide awake that's how people the DMV do it those people that work at the Department of Motor Vehicles

the work half-asleep even meet him I haven't no do I teasing you I will be at the DMV in sleep but yeah we say workers same thing same same type of human that I've come across them too I'm just kidding fuckers relaxed so when you're in a hotel room what is happening that your half your brain is not really sleeping yes it is different stages of sleep there two principal types one is non rapid eye movement sleep or non-rem sleep the other is REM sleep which is also known as dreams sleep Brian and non rapid eye movement sleep is further divided into four separate stages I'm which unimaginatively called stages 1 through 4 where creative bunches is remember if it is but I think it's like you but it's the Deep stages of sleep three and four of that non rapid eye movement that's where I

episode of Buddy replenishment takes place bring the cardiovascular system metabolism all of his good things but that's the deep sleep that one half of your brain will resist going into when you're sleeping in a 4in environment so it stays in this kind of light to Stage almost like a threat detection system and you can imagine why you know it's an unusual come text evolutionarily it would make a lot of sense to just have that to Devon God one half of the brain that makes so much sense in that that really for me fills in the blanks of like why even if I get enough 7 8 hours sleep on the road I'm still kind of just out of it yeah and that's in fact probably one of the I think the most impressive parts of new research on sleep it's not just about quantity it's also about quality I quality can be as detrimental if you don't get it as a reduction in Total Quality me both are essential but I think it speaks exactly to your point you just don't feel like it's a refreshing

deep sleep yeah I feel totally different it just feels like I guess I would say it feels like half-asleep yeah it's really kind of things that I noticed I did this thing with my friends called sober October where we didn't smoke any pot or do any no drinking at all nothing for her for a month and when I did it once things I found this an after about I don't know how many days but it was noticeable that I would have these incredibly vivid dreams and then I had read that marijuana does something to suppress heavy REM sleep like what what it what is happening there yes so both of those chemicals both of which are used as a sleep aid alcohol and marijuana are actually very good at blocking your dreams sleep your rapid eye movement sleep and see what happens is that the brain is quite clever in this regard it builds up a clock counter of how much dreams sleep you should have had but if

helping getting and it starts to develop this increasing appetite and hunger for dreams sleep so that whining when the alcohol actually gets out of your system and sober October that's all the sudden where you get what's called a REM sleep rebound effect where you not only get the normal amount of REM sleep that you would normally have you get that plus the brain tries to get back some of that dream sleep. It's been losing over the past maybe 11 11 months I'm so you get this is REM sleep rebound effect and that's what you have these really intense dreams sleep situations the same reason that people will like I had a bit too much to drink last night maybe it was a Friday or Saturday they sleep in late besides that he's crazy dreams what happens there is a cute version where the alcohol is swelling around in your system

and after about 6 hours delivering a kid needs to finally excreted all of the alcohol and your brain is being deprived of dream sleep for that first 6 hours so then feast in the last couple of hours and that's why you have these really bizarre dreams after you've been drinking a little bit too much so what is happening with marijuana though specifically do you know marijuana it it does help people will help it it puts people to sleep quicker although I think that the question is whether it's really not supposed to sleep on. They going to send me with alcohol it's not that nightcap idea is is a misnomer

alcohol will actually it will it's a form of drugs that we call the sedatives and sedation is not sleep three different but we have the mistake one for the other marijuana it seems to act in a physiological afraid if it doesn't talk at the same receptors in the brain so it's unclear with at this speed with what you fall asleep after having a session with marijuana is actually natural sleep let's assume it is the problem however is that it then we'll start to disrupt REM sleep it will start to block the process we think perhaps at the level of the brainstem witches were these two types of sleeping on RAM and REM sleep well actually gets out of work that out that's when marijuana may actually impact wrench sleep and shut it down and block it have there been any studies on chronic marijuana smokers like those dawn-to-dusk type character that just are constantly high like and what happens to the brain from not because they must never hit hit REM sleep yes I haven't looked at marijuana they have looked at alcohol though

exactly that's what happens if you look at alcoholics they will have something up and when they come off alcohol to make cool delirium tremens which is where is DT there what happens is that the alcoholism blocking dreams sleep for so long and the pressure of a dream sleep is built up so powerfully in the brain it actually just spills over into wakefulness and so the brain just said look okay if I'm not going to get this dream sleep whilst you're asleep I'm just going to take it while you're awake and so you start to essentially dream while you're awake it's this sort of collision of two states of Consciousness so you get delirium detoxing someone said someone lyrium Tremor delirium tremens yeah so what like what is going on with them when this is happening so if they are going through this delirium during the day while they're conscious

what what's physiologically happening so it's almost as though the veil of REM sleep gets pulled over the waking brain as it was she have this mix States Of Consciousness that you can pick up with brainwave recordings how necessary sleep must be if that's the lengths that the brain will go to to get that which it's been missing you know just shows you why you know it took Mother Nature 3.6 million years to put this thing called and he's our sleep besides that the in place and we've come along and within the space of a hundred years we flipped off almost 20% of that if you look at the data wow really so many people take pride in that too I don't need 8 hours sleep I got 3 I'm good ready to go kick ass and dominate the world like sleep machismo it said there's a lot of that

men who sleep 5 to 6 hours a night will have a level of testosterone which is that if someone 10 years that Xenia selective sleep will age you buy a decade and Tums affect critical aspect of Wellness virility muscle strength and sexual wow we had a woman on the podcast for name is Courtney dauwalter and cheese a ultra marathon runner and she ran. She's a real freak I mean like an incredible athletes she ran this thing called the Moab 240 it's 238 Mi through the the Moab mountains and she did it 22 miles faster than the second-place man so she want it by like a whopping I think it was 10 hours 10 hours ahead of the second-place winner and she slept 1 minute

one minute the entire time she tried the lights over three days I think it took her Less Than 3 days they took her like 2 days

she slept for 1 minute there in the entire time but she tried to lie down she she said she lay down for a few minutes but you couldn't fall asleep and then she wound up actually just taking 1 minute and going to sleep and she said that one minute was like one of the most intense restful minutes after that minutes over she was woken up she told her partner running partner to wake her up in a minute and she's like how long did you let me sleep like one minute she's like why I feel great let's go but she was saying that she hallucinate and that she start seeing like rabbits are talking to her and she species things that aren't there in like mystical beings and stuff she said it's really freaky but she knows that she's hallucinating because she's done this she's done a bunch of an ultramarathon so she just keeps going just keeps going she's like saying hi to Ramis there talking to her and stuff you see these reports to I mean this is a race of cycling race things bike Across America just got to go from east coast to West Coast in a show to time as possible in the

exactly what they do to it's all about managing how little sleep that you get and they will explain these wild hallucinogenic experiences on the bike if you look at world records for people who have tried to serve go without sleep I'm one of the most famous examples is a radio disc jockey cool Pizza trip back in the is back in the city of 60s 50s 60s and he tried to break the world record what he went 8 days straight and yeah and you have a scientist the sky just said look this is pretty bad idea based on what we know please don't do it and he said I'm going to do it anyway besides just being a good scientist and attractive and by day 3 he was having florid delusions and hallucinations who is seeing spiders in his shoes he became desperately paranoid such to think that people are trying to pull

in his food one point of the middle of winter some guys came in with Sophie's baby New York winter time came with his big jacket he thought it was the Secret Service coming to get him and he ran out into the road because it's strange but so we know that that same profile if just starting to become you know psychotic which is essentially what happens naturally when you dream that you are I mean all of us here in as long as we slept last night became flagrantly psychotic when we went into dreams sleep because you start to see things which are not the so you hallucinate you believe things that could possibly be true to your delusional you get confused about time place and pus and say suffering from disorientation you have wildly fluctuating emotions so maybe that psichiatra school being so effectively labile and then so wonderful we both woke up this morning and we forgot most if not all of that dream extreme she was suffering from Amnesia what is happening when

having these hallucinogenic experiences like what are the chemicals that are causing it do we know the day we let them fall asleep and then we see what happens within the brain which parts of the brain is switching on which parts of the brain is switching off when you go into REM sleep first me some parts of your brain become 30% more active than when you're awake so it's it's going to be think of sleep is this so you know static passive state where everything just kind of drops down and comes back to the tea light the country

but what's also interesting is that not all parts of the brain ramp up when you go into REM sleep visual parts of the brain increase motor parts of the brain increase emotional sent as a memory sent as they will increase but the part of the brain that books the trend and goes in the opposite direction is the part of the brain that we pull a prefrontal cortex this set of CEO of the brain that's pretty good at rational logical thinking that part to part of the brain that shuts off so it's almost as though you know that the prison guards are gone and everyone runs amok because there's no controller in place and so we knew it from the patents of brain activity why you become set up so visual you see things why you have motoc anesthetic activity why things feel it so emotional but we'll see why things seem bodily illogical and irrational cuz your friends will bring the thing that makes is most human you can say goodbye to that for the rest of dreams sleep so there's no driver for this

driver yeah now why do we forget why do we forget those dreams because I I wake up and I am sure that I'm going to remember these dreams and sometimes I do sometimes I remember and I don't think I really remember that I think what it is is very much like you ever hear someone talk about a memory from a long time ago I used to think that people actually remembered things from a long time ago but now what I think is Dave remember remembering it I think they remember talking about it they remember how they described it and then they sort of remember that and repeat it and in their mind convince themselves that that's what happened because I've heard people tell stories about the past and there'll they vary wildly from what is absolutely true like like factual you could check it you could research it you know what the facts are but then their mind it's very different and I think that it's entirely possible that Whoopi

are doing is remembering the recollection of these memories and how they told them and then also serve people elaborate things and make themselves look better or make the situation look more dramatic but with dreams that doesn't make any sense so I was so I'm always trying to figure out like what is it about a dream where sometimes I can remember the dream and sometimes it's so vivid when I wake up I'm like holy shit that went crazy what a dream and then I forget it 20 minutes later. What is that so fussy is that it's just simply a reconstruction when you wake up so you have these fragments of activity and what your cortex does when it wakes up is what your cortex is designed to do when you're awake normally but just try to package everything can make a good story make logical fit out of the world that's one Theory I don't believe that though you're planted every interesting one do I remember my dreams that disc

surly mean I forget my dreams and what I mean by that is accessibility buses availability so if you haven't had that experience I was dreaming I talk like rabbit United and it's gone and then 2 days later you're in the shower you said washing yourself you see a bottle of shampoo you see the label and it just triggers the unlocking of that dream memory units of comes flooding back when someone says something to you what that tells me is a brain scientist is that the memory is the it's preserved it's available but what happens when most of the time when we wake up is that we lose the IP address to the memory so it's present but it's not consciously accessible available not accessible if that's true what it means is that this type of information we know can have known conscious impact on our behavior all the times Great Brain science about this non-conscious

reprocessing it's possible that we stole every one of our dreams we just don't consciously have accessibility to it but nevertheless it's changing how we behave how we feel each and every day no evidence for it to therium still wanting to test but that's possible too and it's only that anecdote where I can think I just don't remember the dream I forgotten it I don't think that may be true it may still be there I just need to find the keys to exit of excess that memory what stunning to me is how quickly the dream evaporates the memory the dream in relation to an actual experience like if we went outside and we saw some lady walk up to some guy and kick him in the balls would be like what we would remember that and that you need to be able to tell your friends like yeah some lady just randomly walk us some guy and kicked in the balls like weird remember that and you would remember it ten minutes later good member in an hour

yeah she just walk right up to him I remember it like it was yesterday cuz it was right but a dream give me 10 minutes ago and you wake up and dude it was the King Kong and he was he was swinging for my ceiling and somehow or another they see fit in the room but the room got bigger and you do you have these crazy dreams and then 20 minutes later you forget all of it like what is happening there so 1 1 current explanation is that the chemistry of the brain when you go into dreams sleep is radically different so one of the chemicals called noradrenaline in the brain which downstairs in the body at sista chemical is called adrenaline

noradrenaline actually Plymouth the lowest level to touch the distress chemical in the brain of one of them that gets shut off during dreams sleep which is even if you're panicking like what if you fall off a building well what's interesting is that vet chemical is low wealth's you're having that dream but when you wake up at from there isn't some people often wake up that's when you have the spike of northrend so it's still low when you're in dreams sleep but there's another chemical that goes in the opposite direction School acetyl choline is the chemical that is actually a multitude Alzheimer's disease and these two chemicals will change essentially the input output direction of information flow into the memory centers of the brain send that makes sense cuz people take that as a nootropic they do actually in Alpha Brain when when you take that it's this been clinically proven to enhance memory especially verbal memory and recollection of words and things like that that's right so that's happening

while you're sleeping well it's cheering REM sleep yeah but what may be happening a current model is effusive build these new role models to submit dreaming it may be that join dreaming its principal about out flow of information to generate dreams and in fact the chemical profile is oppositional to input which is about saving so it's about to the pumping out information rather than committing information and so when you come out of a dream sleep you still get this set of lingering Taste of chemistry is it where in the brain that means that the dreaming brain is more program to be out putting a narrative an experience rather than actually committing it to memory which is the opposite direction if that makes sense it does make sense how we are you of dimethyltryptamine I've somewhat aware of it scientifically not not one of the things about psychedelic experiences with dimethyltryptamine

first of all it's endogenous you at your brain produce it your lungs your liver produce it but when you have a DMT experience after it's over the memory Fades very rapidly and it seems just like a dream in that regard wear while you while you're having it what's bizarre is that you're having it while you're awake now and then after you have it within 10-20 minutes it is just like a dream that you can't remember so I remember like little flashes of experiences that I've had and there's been a lot of speculation that that's one of the things that you were experiencing while you're in heavy REM sleep and that could be responsible for the crazy visuals that you have that seems so vivid mean there there's been times where I've had dreams where I was a hundred percent convinced that I was awake and then something happened like I do this thing sometimes where I'll end if I do it consciously a lot I think I saw him on those wacky movies like what the bleep do we know

I think it's not in that will you walk up to a door as you walk through the door you knock on the side of the door and go am I wake nope not awake or am I asleep rather cuz I'm not going to do it but I did that in my hands are like going right through the wall and I know I'm sleeping and then I woke up and I was like but the feeling that I had while I was in that dream will it was so vivid I mean everything seems so real like what could possibly be causing me to construct this artificial reality in my mind that at the moment least was indistinguishable from the reality that I experience right now and I'm assuming cuz I just not in the stable that I'm awake yeah I really hope I'm not just effective character in your dreams maybe we sharing a drink at a possible not based on the sign so far but I think you know what you

thinking about Verity is almost why would why would Mother Nature create this thing called The Dream experience you don't do that would be the function of essentially every night going into what sums up to be about 2 total hours of virtual reality experience and testing one possibility which is deeply unsatisfying is that it's just a byproduct it's just a p phenomenal that when your brain goes into this thing called REM sleep and all of the different pens brain activity that we described an offshoot is this thing that we call dreaming in the same way that a lightbulb the reason that we construct the operator stats a light bulb is produced light but when you produce light in that way you will soap reduce heat was never the function of the lightbulb it's just what happens when you produce light in that way maybe dreaming is just to have the heat of REM sleep and REM sleep sets off to other functions but wow doesn't feel to me

right though why was firstly I think it's probably a additionally metabolically demanding to have dreams in addition to this thing called REM sleep and whenever Mother Nature buns calories it's usually for a reason because they're so precious that make sense to you know I read some article about the lack of REM sleep with marijuana users and it was trying to say it may be super skeptical even as a pot smoker that it was trying to say that it's not bad for you because what's essentially doing is bypassing the REM sleep and going directly into the deep sleep and it's helping you in that regard does that make sense to you doesn't make sense as a neuroscientist

likeable but I don't think you say anything wrong I think I think marijuana like most things is best used in moderation and one thing that I got out of the sober October thing wasn't just that it's fascinating to see the dreams like just ramp up and get crazy but also that when you take a few days off and then smoke a little pot The Parsley has more of an impact in fact one of my favorite psychedelic authors and lectures the late great Terence McKenna his advice was to not do marijuana for long periods of time and then do as much as you could stand and he was a you know a real psychedelic adventure and his thought was to really get the benefit of marijuana it's not something that should be used daily and Rec relate recreationally it should be used as a psychedelic Sacrament. Should because he actually did smoke pot pretty really pretty regularly rather

but his thought was you really want to get the full impact of it you shouldn't be accustomed to it and when you're accustomed to it you build up a tolerance to it it doesn't have the same impact like it's that thing I don't know if you've ever been around pot smokers but when someone doesn't smoke pot and then they get talked into smoking pot with some pot smokers it so he's a terrible idea and some poor person that doesn't have any tolerance and they just they just get taken down a tornado Rabbit Hole journey into their choice of 0 to 60 days will ever know and thank you about everything freaking out all these Sensations or they just never experienced before but the idea that you could bypass REM sleep and go straight into the deep sleep that doesn't make any sense to you know it doesn't end what we've learned over the past of 30 or 40 years is all stages of sleep are important and it when you think about

sleep as a state it makes no sense for us the your vulnerable to predation you know finding food you're not finding a mate you're not reproducing you not caring for young on any one of those grounds sleep should feed strongly selected against as a collective I mean it it's it's almost idiotic if sleep does not 7 absolutely vital function it is the biggest mistake that the evolutionary process have been made and that counts for all of the stages of sleep too I got Mother Nature wouldn't waste time putting you into a state that wasn't necessary but we've discovered is that all of those different stages of sleep that we spoke about all have unique and separate functions so Yukon Short change any one of them you don't need to bias 2 world 1 + transitive you know placate the other you know Illusionist as taking a long time to get the blueprint accurately correct each physiological

I wouldn't play around with it and that you're smarter than that process I felt like it was justification for smoking a lot of pot for sleep man I need a trim sleeve you're passing it up man you just go right into the deep heavy necessary Sleep Country contraire potheads so what is happening to the body during REM sleep that's so critical that one particular aspect of sleep so first lead in the Buddy the your cardiovascular system seems to do something quite strange it goes through periods of dramatic acceleration and then traumatic deceleration during the during REM sleep quite unpredictable to we also know that during REM sleep your brain paralyzes your body so that your mind can dream safely so if you are thinking that you're in Ohio this

well Champion mixed martial arts person and it's in the middle of the night you're not it's dark you can't see you're not receiving or outside will you guys get popped out of the gene pool very quickly if you start acting out that experience so there is a barrier in place that mother nature walks you down in incarceration muscling Hustler conservation that's crazy that you say that because when I was fighting when I was young I would wake up throwing kicks I would kick in the middle of the night I would do it all the time I'd be sleeping and I just thought I would move and throw a kick in the middle of the night waking me up like what the fuck is wrong with me and I try to go back to sleep again but I was obviously dreaming about competing do you actually remember this it when you woke up did you remember dreaming at that point or did you just have no recollection of anything going on at that point I believe I had a recollection it's been a long time but I believe I had a recollection

I would be like in bed with my girlfriend had to wake her up to you know cuz I just felt like I didn't throw a full kick but my body would move like I was going to you know I got would turn my hips in my leg would extend it was my body was it was attributed to the the idea that it's so extreme like the activity of fighting is so extreme that my my brain had kind of like hypercharged itself to compete at this very high level you know and that this was like so unusual that it was it was almost at Red Alert all the time and maybe even trying to work out patterns simple things like remote to skills or even rats running around to make you swear they will learn specifics of navigational Pathways and even skilled motor movements what you can do as you can place these electrodes into senses of the of the brain wheat

what can I buy my sleep center works on humans but other people have done these STDs and rats and you implant electrodes and you measure the brain cells firing as the rest is running around the Maze and let's see that you consider play Bethel Towing speed brain cell so they're running around amazing and you can listen to the brain cells to learning the signature of that may so it goes up up up up up up up up up up is that when you let those rats sleep but you keep listening to the brain what you hear is as if the brain is actually it is the exact same sequence 3 memory sequence that it was Landing lost it was awake it's only playing but at a speed that is 20 times faster

well so you don't have to get into this Inception well then I don't mean to cut the scientific 883 the wind up in that territory but you know that notion of time compression and time dilation that Christopher Nolan played so well within that movie we can see that at the level of brain cell firing and rats as they let him use maces and it comes back to what you're saying which is that the battle that they rehearse those skilled memories when you wake them up and test them the next day. Predict how much batter they are in terms of their performance so it's not just that you learn you got to sleep and you replay and you hit the save button on these new memories you actually scoped out those memories and you improve them and we've been cities with most skill learning critical for athletic performance and

practice does not make perfect practice with a nights of sleep is what makes perfect because you come back the next day and your 20 to 30% better in terms of your skilled performance than where you were at the end of your practice session the day before wow sleep is the greatest legal performance-enhancing drug that most people are probably neglecting and Spa wow not just for your physical performance but actually skill learning that's right skill learning memory and then also you know downstairs in the body all over the recuperative benefits and you can flip a coin by the way if you getting 6 hours of sleep or less your time to physical exhaustion drops pipes up to 30% so you could spend all of your time training for 10 round fight

perfect condition but then I put you on 6 hours of sleep the night before you're not going to be physically exhausted by round 7 rather than round 10 but that's a really hard thing for Fighter 2 they have a very difficult time sleeping the night before a big fight he is very very difficult and I would imagine

it's got to be

I mean it's probably take a huge toll on his probably at it see what your benefit if they can somehow or another bypass all that and just relax and learn how to relax and learn how to actually sleep I mean I think you know it's one of the Wisconsin trying to hack the physiological system especially in Elite Sports these days in small fraction of a percent of game can make a huge difference that sounds like 30% I mean your time to not just physical exhaustion but you know the lactic acid build-up quicker the less and less that you sleep your ability of the lungs to actually expire carbon dioxide and oxygen decreases the less sleep that you have that makes so much sense because what I was doing I was doing Fear Factor and I was doing stand-up comedy and then I was also doing another television show and I was doing Jiu-Jitsu I was asleep I mostly got for usually got four and my cardio is sucked

yeah it's a huge part of how many hours of sleep should you get somewhere between excuse me somewhere between 7 to 9 hours once you get below 7 hours of sleep we can measure objective implements in your brain in your body I can show that in the last two days and I can shave it show it because I basically did the same workout 2 days in a row the day before I flown back from Boston very tired hung out with my kids all day went to get some sleep but then I had to do some stuff at like 2 in the morning and I just never really got good sleep and then my youngest daughter got up at 5 she was crying and then eventually my alarm went off at 8 so my my sleep was like 3-4 hours is all screwy and the night before I was even last cuz I had flown and I had to get up early for the flight and I try to sleep on the plane and I went running I felt like dogshit and then during the day I felt like dogshit I just didn't have

like as I was running I just didn't have any extra gear of what I did it I pushed through it but then it was over by the last night last night I slept seven and a half hours woke up today lifted weights ran ran felt great feel great now like 2 days indifference mean that's the difference a difference is one day I got real sleep one day I didn't I did the exact same thing even more today I did that lifted weights today as well and I feel great so I could see I can see it physiologically in the the difference in my performance in 24 hours and that's when we see that to you know you're at your Peak muscle strength your physical vertical jump height and your Pete running speed all of those things Carly quits leave the less that you have the worst those outcomes are probably one of the most surprising fact is they was injury risk when they looked at athlete's across the season and they just posted you know so frequently will they get injured

anime 7/8 them you know how much sleep you guessing and the buckets at them into set of people who getting 9 hours 70654 and it's a perfect linear relationship the last week that you have hired your injury risk two people getting 9 hours fast is 5 hours there's almost a 60% increase in probability of injury risk during a season do tribute that to exhaustion or do you treat me. To a lack of recovery from the previous night's workout is it a combination of those things is it exhaustion causing you to miss step perhaps and like twisting ankle or turn Annie yeah it's all of those things Solace I mean if you look at my crib balance if you look at the set of these stability muscles fast as you know major muscles those stability muscles also fail when you're not getting sufficient sleep I think we often underestimate how critical they are in spoke before particularly in terms of combating and placating injury risk to see if you just get someone on a stability ball you know

so just dosed them down with sleep 8 hours 5 hours and 3 hours I just noticed how those stability muscles help you balance just the basic active balance that deteriorates dramatically know when do you getting more injury risk totally makes sense now I'm pissed tribute when when people talk about visualization and visualization is it's a huge factor in improving technical skills specific martial arts which is a big fan of obviously martial arts when you you visualize people who visualize who sit down and like go over their body going through the motions and doing things there with those people perform better they are better than the they learn quicker what do you treat me that to do you think it's the same thing as what's happening when you're sleeping just maybe to a lesser extent I think it's to a lesser extent

but people have done those cities where they looked at whether you actually physically practice let's hang on a keyboard just cuz it's easier to manage another part three of us is just imagining set of typing out that sequence and just the active physical visualization of set of imagination of that motor skill it's it's about 50% as a effective as physically performing at 2 and its 50% as effective what I mean there is in changing the plastic connections within the brain to even just visual isation you know passive play as it was still can actually cause a rewiring of the brain been officially you know learning techniques specifically martial arts techniques my good friend Eddie Bravo so world famous jiu-jitsu instructor he's he's always

comparing it to tying your shoe and he said do you know how like when you were a little kid and you trying to figure out how to tie your shoe it's of extremely difficult thing to do you like how do I do this and you put that down to do loops like I'm watching my seven-year-old daughter go through that right now but now as a grown man when I tie my shoe and I don't even know what I did if you tried to ask me to explain how I tie my shoe at be like how do I tell how I do it because I have it in there it just the idea with martial arts is you've got to be eat all your techniques have to be automatic someone extends the arm you instantly hook and go into the armbar you know it's someone you have to have these paths like so well drilled in that you don't even know you're doing them until it's over so automaticity is one of the things that sleep actually accomplish as you have told me about those 20 to 30% benefits in Moses

so we did some additional study Stacks able to sleep do that in a wearing your skill performance to sleep give you the benefit so you're right tying a shoelace even driving a car with stick you know first it's just overwhelming it's so difficult to clutch it's gas pedal you know it's now it's just second nature shifted from conscious to automatic conscious and unconscious if you look at performance that is conscious and not automatic it's usually price to call to it's this then it's that and it's that it's not fluid if you had someone trying to preserve play piano to begin with doesn't sound very fluid you know someone who was on my stroke it just flows out of them so we looked at this with motorcycle performance against if I keep on playing music and ship

you letting you letting you get better and let's see that you type of sequence it take for 1324 and people learn it but they have these problems points throughout the sequence they give for 130-244-1324 as if it's the sticking point to the same thing with any skilled performance in in athletics and it's the brain chunking things up a very long Note 2 sequence gets choked up into small set of digestible bites it's a good way to begin learning but it's not the way to create automaticity at some point what you have to do is stick your love those things together and it just flows like a sentence like a sentence like a piano piece like you know a sequence of movements if you've got you know in martial arts you've got you know so what we found was that before sleep you know he's big problem points these gaps in your motor skill letting sleep does not necessarily improve the places where you're already good sleep is intelligent it goes in fines that problem point

that friction point in your motor skill to the deficit and it's smooth it out so you come back the next day and now it's just for one 324-413-2441 Altima tesity and see exactly what you're describing your speak to musicians Belsay playing I just couldn't get that piece that I before I came back the next day and I sat down and I could just play sleep's doing it's what I've heard that too with problems and that's why people say sleep on it yeah yeah you've never been told to stay awake on a problem about to go to bed it's almost overwhelming you just can't concentrate on anything else but this problem whatever it is and then you go to sleep and you wake up in the morning like it's all right yeah it's going to be fine I got it I know what to do and sleeps it again I just lots of anecdotal evidence of sleep Inspire creativity and now the shifts to one of the benefits of dreaming in fact it's during dreams sleep and

take all of the information that we previously learned let me start to collided with all of the new information that we flood it's like group therapy for memories you know everyone gets a name badge and you will get to speak to each other and the Brain starts to seek out and test novel connections a new associations so it's almost like informational Alchemy and you wake up the next morning with a revised mind Wide Web that is now capable of divining no incredible solutions to previously impenetrable problem

lots of anecdote scene of Dmitri Mendeleev came up with the Periodic Table of Elements by way of dream inspired inside you know talk about a Herculean task take all of the elements in the known universe and figure out a structures to how they all fit together a few go he's waking brain could not do it his sleeping brain solve the problem

Einstein by the way. This is Einstein was suggested to be a short sleeper and we don't know if that's true but even if he was he was a habitual Neff put during the day I've got two great pictures of him on his work bench and he used sleep ruthlessly as a tool for creativity and he would sit at his desk and you have a lot of paper and a pencil and she had a chair with armrests and he would pick up to Steel ball bearings take a metal source button and turn it upside down placed underneath the arm of the chat and put the two steeple sealed bearings in his hand that he would rest back and he would start to fall asleep and so we didn't fall too far into sleep what would happen is at some point is muscle tone would relax they would release the steel ball bearings they would pressure on the source Bend wake him up and then he would write down all of the creative ideas

you never told the sub stay awake in a problem and in every language that I've been quiet about today I'm French Swahili that phrase sleeping on a problem seems to exist which must mean that this benefit of dreams sleep transcends cultural boundaries I should note I think it's important that the French the French translation is much closer to you you sleep with a problem we the British you say you sleep on a problem friend she say sleep with a problem I think it says so much about the Romantic difference between the British and the French you know the problems at least my British passport had like a whole routine that you would drop this ball and hit it bad to wake up and start writing on living room

Edison my goodness I'm an idiot but he has a lot to answer for by the way in terms of the way that was sleeping you know he Electra he was the first person to Electrify Society shifters from a point where now we control the night in terms of Illumination and we are a dog deprived Society in this area and that's one of the things that are keeping us awake at night a lot of doctors are not just that but also our inability to see the stars anymore the light pollution that we have at night I think it's I think it's a giant shift in perspective like have you ever been to a planetarium or an observatory like one of those at night there's a pack of servatory in Hawaii so place I try to go to every year and it's

it's really stunning because it's very high up I think the observatory is it somewhat it's somewhere more than 9000 feet above sea level and then I think you go even further and they have the telescopes but you got a visitor center and you go to The Visitor Center to have some talk telescope setup but it's you'd actually drive through the clouds so as you're driving up this Mount we were bummed out I gots cloudy anything and then you drive through the clouds and then when you get through the clouds you like holy shit you feel like you're on a spaceship flying through space and this is what our ancestors saw every night when they went to sleep with a clear sky they saw all the stars they saw the full Milky Way like this and the way the big island has set up to use diffuse lighting all over the island because of the Keck Observatory so you don't have the same level of light pollution that you have when your in a normal City like Los Angeles which is terrible in La if you look up you still like one or two

is everything is lit up I think that perspective is a that's a giant factor in the way human beings look their relationship with the universe but I think that also just a light everywhere constant light everywhere it's got to be a big factor in why people sleep so little right we know it is now I mean these studies of being done the first pot is the external light which is you know Street Lighting in a even if you've got curtains that can still bleed through but then when you come into the home you know the invasion of light into the home by way of technology has being a big problem I'm looking at their phones before they go to bed and light bulbs can suppressor hormone that's called melatonin is the whole amount of darkness and it tells your brain when it's dark and when it's time to sleep but then you adding to that screen usage and fake Tan City's weather for example you know one hour of iPad reading versus just

one hour of reading on a buck you know in dim light that one hour of iPad reading firstly delayed the release of this critical Darkness hormone called melatonin by about 3 hours so if you read on your iPad for an hour here in California your melatonin Peak is not going to arrive and it's somewhere in Hawaii time if I could 3 hours delayed its 50% Less in terms of its peak and furthermore you don't get the same amount of REM sleep and when you wake up next morning you don't feel as refreshed restored by asleep those studies of being done to wow what should someone do if they have a hard time sleeping they say if you're a person who is insomnia you have a hard time getting getting to bed and we have a hard time staying asleep when you wake up can go back to bed strategies I mean I think the most people are five things that you can do at the gate to get back to sleep regularity is probably the most important thing I can tell

go to bed at the same time wake up the same time no matter whether it's the weekend weekday regularity is key we spoke about light for example when you in the last hour before bed try to stay away from screens but also just switch off half the lights in the house you would be surprised at how suffer riffic that is it really starts to set of make you feel a bit more privacy it done some great cities were they would take people out you know into the Rockies no electric light no electricity whatsoever and they started to go to bed 2 hours earlier than that claimed natural fet I wasn't just because they didn't have anything this ready to do it was that that melatonin was Rising you know two hours Elliott so keep it dog the Fudd it's probably keep it cool your brain actually needs to drop its temperature by about 2 to 3 degrees Fahrenheit to initiate sleep and that's the reason that you will always find it easier to fall asleep in a room that's too cold then too

I've seen people use cold pads work I write about the series of stories where they had people in it's almost like a wetsuit but it has all of these veins running through it and they could actually use warm or cold water into any part of the body hands core of the body feet and so that you could exquisitely manipulate the temperature of any part of the body and what they found is that they could effectively cool the body down instantaneously made people fall asleep faster and it gave them deeper deep non-rem sleep that's a restorative sleep for the body so you can even look at studies why people sleep semi-naked

and that also seems to improve their sleep and they get a little bit more deep sleep too so cold is better the Paradox here though is that you need to warm your feet and your hands too kind of charm the blood away from your cool out to the surface and radiate that heat real evidence here to that I discuss what people say you know I get out of a hot bath I feel nice and toasty I'm relaxed and that's why I fall asleep it's the opposite when you get into a bath you got vasodilation or used to get rosy cheeks red skin of the blood rushes to the surface you get out of the bath and you have this massive thermal dump of heat that just evacuates from the body fuel core body temperature plummets that's why you sleep after so you can hack the system pretty easily body temperature plummets

what makes you sleep easier yeah that sounds so counter-intuitive but it makes sense makes sense because that's how we would design if you look at home together a tribes who's way of life is not change the thousands of years and you ask how did they sleep one of the things that seems to dictate this sleep is the rise and fall of temperature in temperature is it at its lowest in the Dignity of the night you have three or four in the morning and asked that temperature that climate temperature starts to drop that's when they start to get drowsy as if the temperature is just said of signaling to the brain now it's time to sleep so it light as well as temperature at too'ki triggers to help you get back to sleep if you look at those tribes by the way and when they go to sleep and they wake up I'm going to go to sleep probably 2 hours after dusk set of 8 to 9 in the evening wake up about half an hour even an hour before Dawn it's the rising temperature rather than light that trick is there away

what does a reason you know about what the term midnight actually middle of the night and that's what it should be for all of us but in modernity weeping dislocated from on natural rhythms and now midnight has become the time when we think I should check Facebook last time you know I should be here send my last email wasn't that is not how we were designed to sleep and in fact we may also be designed to sleep by face ically to if you look at those fun together as they don't sleep well and long vowels of 8 hours at night yeah I've heard this recently that people that you should have two sleeps the idea of two sleeps yeah it's actually a little different in the idea of to sleep so it was a time instead of a dickensian here up what people would sleep for the first half of the night maybe you should have 4 hours or so then they would wake up they would socialize they would eat they would bring your love and then they would go back and have a second

if you look at natural biological rhythms in the brain in the body that doesn't really seem to be how we were designed it sent Lee seems to be something that we did in society but I think it's more the societal I'm Trend when it was a biological eat it however we do seem to have to sleep. The way that we would assign those tribes will often sleep about 6 and 1/2 hours 7 hours of sleep at night and then especially in the summer they'll have that Siesta like behavior in the afternoon and all of us have that instead of this what school did postprandial dip in a lot that's just means after lunch and if I measure your brain wave activity with electrodes I can see a drop in your physiological alertness somewhere between 2 to 4 p.m. in the afternoon but is that depended on diet to not people think it is you know especially after they've had a heavy lunch yeah you can actually just have people fast instead of a 12-hour fasting for long periods of time at you

just leave much was but I'm you can shut people abstain from lunch and you still get that drops with independent food it's a genetically hardwired pre-programmed drop that suggest we should be sleeping biphasic what does is that depended upon their standard diet because if if someone is on a carbohydrate carbohydrate Rich diet a lot of times you do get that Spike and then you crashed crashed but when people are on low-carb high-fat diets they don't get that and they they they tend to be more even with their energy through the day yeah so yeah that's it more constant release of energy cannot be helped use it almost Kombat that low fat low just a matter what exactly so even if you don't think it exists it's there it's still present so why did they do that why did they what what is there a root cause of their double sleep thing we don't know that way it's hard to sit if you go back and do things and

what to do in South now when you're when you're measuring the People's Health and when your measuring People's Health in regard to how much sleep they have like what how do you how do you do that you just talk to people do you do surveys like how do you get like a detailed analysis of people's patterns she can do it at many different levels that mean we can start at the set of gross high level which is epidemiological studies across millions of people will you do surveys you ask them about their sleep and then you look at Health outcomes the first thing from that day so that's clear is an unfortunate truth the shorty asleep the short your life well short sleep predict all-cause mortality which is really ironic because people that want to sleep less I like you know I don't have a whole lot of time

you know this life is short yes fucking short if you sleep less yet that the old Max if you don't you can sleep when you're dead Vice because we know from the date that you will be both dead Sunnah and the quality of that now shorter life will be significantly was yeah that's counterintuitive to people that the idea that you need this and it's not just like you're making best use of time by sleeping less you're not yet you'd make best use of time by being awake less exactly which is crazy I mean wakefulness first date from a brain perspective is low-level brain damage we know that wait for me and says low like right now what are you and I are getting low level brain damage yep that's right I need to sleep that officer repaired pre-function I'll give you one example which is your risk for Alzheimer's disease insufficient sleep across the lifespan now seems to be one of the most significant lifestyle factors determining whether or not you'll develop Alzheimer's what studies or if any have been done on people that work 3rd Shift

two people have looked at shift work in general they haven't necessarily split it down to that granular point but what we see is that shift workers have higher rates of obesity High rates of diabetes but perhaps most frightening Lee cancer and in fact we now know the link between elective sleeping cancer is quite strong insufficient sleep is linked to cancer of the bowel cancer of the prostate cancer of the breast on the association has become so powerful that recently the World Health organisation decided to classify any form of night time shift work as a probable cause synagen oh yes if jobs that mean juice cancer because of A disruption if you'll sleep like riddims other other quarreling factors like don't people that sleep less or work into the night don't they eat more I need more shity food they do both of those things yeah we know exactly the pathways so they're off to hormones that control your appetite and you'll wait I want to

letting the other is called growling sound like Hobbits but they not the reason that tells your brain your full you'll satiated you don't want to lose any more Grayling does the opposite it's the hunger hormone it says you want to eat more you're not satisfied with your food if I take people in these studies being done we've done some of these trees too and you just put you in a group of healthy people on for 5 hours of sleep for that say one week and you look at those two hormones make it when I'm fortunately opposite directions to leptin that says you. Eating that gets pressed by lack of sleep Grill in the Hunger hormone that gets rammed up so thirsty people who are sleeping just 5 to 6 hours a night will on average eat somewhere between 200 to 300 extra calories each day because of the underslept state

patch that up it's about 70,000 extra calories a year it's about 10 to 15 lb of obese Mass each year which for me is starting to sound familiar but we also know is that it's just that when you are under slept you eat more you eat more of the wrong things and this that the great scientific work if you get people to finger buffet and they can eat whatever they want and it contains all of the different food groups you sleep deprived them will you give him a full 8 hours of sleep yes they start to overeat by somewhere around about 450 calories with total sleep deprivation but what they go after is heavy-hitting carbohydrates and simple sugars processed food and they stay away from the healthy side of leafy greens nuts proteins xcetera and that's why a lack of sleep has such a strong obesogenic profile to it

and you can take a step back to and you say well if you look at the rise of obesity of the past 70 years just this up would exponential increase and if you place on the same graph the amount of sleep that Society is getting goes in the opposite direction as sleep time at declined obesity rates have increased I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the Obesity epidemic is simply asleep problem it's not it's a problem of us being sedentary processed foods larger food serving sizes if you take those factors though by themselves they cannot explain the increase in obesity other things are at play is sleep one of them now we know it is it's a critical factor in the obesogenic epidemic I know from personal experience when I'm tired I always gravitate towards the worst choices for me it's late night cheeseburgers in a Wendy's at 2 in the morning or whatever what happens if you get naps like say if you only have 5 hours of sleep but you

take a 2-hour nap during the day does everything makeup

yes or no so what you talking about there is I will Waco prophylactic napping which is it of strategically trying to help combat can actually give you benefits we've done some of these cities where they improve you know you learning your memory your alertness your concentration especially your emotional regulation to sleep is critical for emotional first aid mental health Yukon keep using naps to self medicate should have short sleeve Pocono for a 5 hours each night we know that the system itself you love your brain has no capacity to regain all of the sleep but it's lost it will try to sleep back some of that debt but we've discovered let's say I take you tonight I deprive you of sleep 8 hours lost then I give you all of the recovery sleep that you want on a second third or fourth night you will sleep longer but you will only get back maybe just three or four hour

is of that lost to 8 so sleep is not like the bank you contact cumulated that and then hope to pay it off at the weekend and so there is no credit system within the brain for sleepy compound kit which is odd by the way I would love that system but I could also just know when I'm going into a state of you no sleep dad and I could build up some credit on this president for this by the way there is a system like that in the brain it's called the fat cell because there was times during our evolutionary past where we faced feminem effaced feast and so the Buddy learned to adapt to that said when you have Feast store it up is caloric energy in these things called adipose cells fat cells and then when you go into famine you can spend that caloric credit

where is that in the brave why don't we have that the reason is for a simple human beings are the only species that deliberately deprive themselves of sleep for no apparent reason in other words Mother Nature has never faced the challenge of coming up with a safety net for lack of sleep we've never been forced to come up with that Solution that's why we get such demonstrable disease sickness in empowerment when you undergo a lack of sleep so this is a recent occurrence and in human beings that we're saying is when you go into conditions of starvation the only way that you can get a species to sleep last night very very difficult to do because sleep is just so essential is when you put them on the conditions of extreme starvation that they will forgo some sleep to stay awake so that they can forage in a larger to the circumference area to try and find more food it's probably the reason that when people giving to fasting

sleep is so terrible because the brain is receiving this ancient trigger that you're going without food reinstates of starvation you need to stay awake and hunt for food that's why you're sleep gets so much worse when you're when you're indicating fasting. I did not know that so fasting is when you're talking about multiple day fasting and not intermittent fasting we don't know the evidence for intermittent fasting so you know if you are some people at doings of 12 hours 14 hours 16 hours that doesn't seem to be extreme enough to trigger a changing sleep but if you fast for these long. See you two days 3 days 4 days you can really see some quite Mark sleep fragmentation sleep as they're going to ask any of those people they'll tell you that's fast into because people always cite the health benefits of multiple day fast do you think that that's just like a placebo effect I mean sent you we know that there are chemical Pathways that when you go into fasting Go activate

seem to be beneficial for health outcomes if this big glitch Turanza fasting an aging the end tour pathway for example but we also know that is a species we would not designed to have such terrible fragmented sleep and we spoke about how sleep regulates your appetite if you're trying not to eat food instead of control and manage your weight the last thing that you probably want to do is be short-changing yourself on sleep because it's only going to make you even more hungry and reach for said it was food so I still think there's room for fasting in the equation but I think there's extreme Fest you know and the fact that it plays on sleep it's still yet to be understood you got to be very careful with playing around with anything going Beyond sensible in a behavior so what does it like what is if you say if you're going too fast for 2 days what switch is on that forces your your body into this haphazard sleep program so that's where that full moon Grayling just kicks into high Creek

yeah that, that is just saying it's a starvation hormone at that point is not hunger hormone you've gone over into starvation and that will promote a alertness it promotes chemicals that try to keep you awake chemicals like dopamine to set up new 4C wide awake so it's forcing you to go hunter-gatherer that's right and this is even if your body goes to a state of ketosis that we don't know people have not tried to correlate to the funeral the profile change in ketosis vs. alterations in sleep I have you think it would be fascinating you know maybe there's a week where it's bad and then you should have you crested and then things get better you know just a body acclimate to that I don't know it's we've never seen the body being able to sort of really engage with you know, Tyvek function with a dose of sleep deprivation that keeps going so if I see something done take people and give them 2 weeks of 7 hours of sleep 5 hours of sleep

3 hours of sleep or no sleep you don't even buy some 7 days a week 14 days of 6 hours of sleep you'll come to Performance just nosedives like a doll into the ground and it doesn't show any signs of leveling off as if there is no asymptote that I can keep going by the way people should know that after 20 hours of being awake you are as him. Cognitively as you would be if you are legally drunk why what about physical movement same thing if your reaction time driving comes in for every 30 seconds that we've been speaking there is being a car accident linked to sleeplessness drowsy driving it seems kills more people on the roads than either alcohol or drugs combined why are why are drowsy driving accidents so definitely right now I'm not endorsing those other things of course not but let's just think about why that's the case

when you're under slapped you start to have water cooled microsleeps sometimes your eyelid does not close all the way it just partially closes but the brain essentially goes to sleep for just a brief brief. Of time you can even see individual brain cells looks like they go to sleep during these receipts at that moment if you're traveling in a vehicle on the freeway you've got a 1-ton missile traveling at 65 miles an hour and no one is in control of your lucky yeah yeah yeah alright yeah a McLaren P1 if you are really alcohol it's often the case of a problem later reaction with with the lack of sleep it's a problem of no reaction at all so you're out of it so you can

it's about them breaking too late it's just new Breaking whatsoever. That's why I tip for people to if you if you find yourself colura tired and driving and you have to stay awake take either ice or ice cold water and put in a washcloth and then rub your face with it keeps you awake if you're forced to drive if for whatever reason you have to you know you have 20 minutes to go in you're really exhausted do that I guess is the best like a wet cloth put ice inside of it and just rub your face and just wait to write up for whatever reason and it's I mean those the statistics around price drowsy driving though you know frightening and what's a weird thing when you're on the road there's something about those white lines that just want to put you to sleep there's no other time where I feel more compelled just conk out while I'm awake yeah it was probably one of the greatest sedatives to come too bad meaning of monotonous Behavior and the longer you go with that monotony of the worst things get you know if you look at it

I'm here teenagers that's where we see some of the greatest impact of short as he driving you know it's the leading cause of death in most of us will Nation suicide II wow that is crazy this model of later school start times they've done these studies there was a great one that was done I think in Teton County in Wyoming they shifted the school start times from 7:35 in the morning to 8:55 in the morning Mitch mobile logically reasonable for teenagers in the extra hour of sleep that those teenagers reported guessing was the drop in vehicle accidents there was a 70% reduction in car crashes the following year when they made the 700 technology solution here's a simple biological factor sleep that will drop accident rates by 70%

so I think if all goalies Educators truly is to educate we spoke about learning and memory and not risk lives in the process then we are failing all children in the most spectacular mountain with this Valley School start times why do we do that like what school times but early work times too I was driving to the airport to the day at 6 a.m. 6 a.m. bumper-to-bumper traffic on the 405 I think this is insane look at these poor Fox what are we doing if you are in the car at 6 a.m. that it means that you probably woke up fire average school start times you know in the US some of them you know 7 725 buses for school start time of 7:25 will begin leaving at 5:30 in the morning that means that some kids are having to wake up at 5:15 5 maybe even earlier I really want to see that never corrected it

he has changed over the past 30 or 40 years I mean American schools used to go to need to start around 9 and it starts at 2 Shift ever and ever Elia why I'm part of it is because of work times that parents had to get to work at ever earlier start schools they comply to that same time frame as well and it becomes very difficult in high school systems all the bus unions you know it's incredibly difficult Logistics problem but I have to think that you know what is a go if a goal is to keep our kids safe and to get them well educated get information to the brain and nuts them you know create them to be the next generation

early school start times in on not the thing to do there's a lot of lazy kids out there they're going yes I preach on dr. preach I need the dates and cities academic things together one of these another example comes from Edina in Minnesota and they shifted school start times from I think it was at 7:25 to 8:30 in the morning and they look at SAT scores and in the year before they made the time change the top 10% performing students got an average SAT score of 1288 which is a great School

the following year and they were going to school now at 8:30 Ross and 7:25 the average SAT score was 1500 that's a 212 Point increase which is non-trivial wow that's gigantic I just I think it's the school time in correlation with the work time and that's part of what you know modernity has done well working longer hours and also what commuting for long durations of time so that's what people having to wake up oh yeah they come home later on the one thing that gets squeezed to the vice grips is this thing called sleep you know on the decimation of sleep throughout industrialized nations the consequences having a catastrophic impact on our health and our wellness and the safety in the education of our children

silent Sleepless epidemic

now other than making the room cold and warming up your hands in your feet and things on one side what about diet is it the or even time that you eat is there a specific time before you go to bed that you should eat how much time should you give yourself to digest your food you said the general advice right now is don't go to bed too full and don't go to bed too hungry again if you're going to bed too hungry you can get that set of that signal of I'm starting to go into low levels of starvation in that can keep people awake at night the evidence in terms of diet composition sleep is quite unclear it's not particularly well-researched area right now what we do know is that diets that are high in sugar and heavy starchy carbohydrates and low in fiber those diets to not to be good for sleep you tend to have less deep sleep and you'll sleep is also more fragmented throughout the night so that's

right now the best advice so you should eat several hours before you go to bed but not 5 hours that's right and you will know it if you're starting to wake up with really severe hunger pangs the what about supplements like melatonin supplements are things on those lines melatonin is efficacious it's useful when you are traveling between time zones so at that point your body clock your internal clock is out of sync with the actual real time and then you time zone and let's say I fly from Los Angeles over to London back home my melatonin spike is going to be eight hours in the past they know it to the back in time not going to arrive with me for 8 hours so I can take some melatonin I can fool my brain into thinking oh my goodness it's actually dog when despite in California it's still daylight once I've arrived so you can

is melatonin strategically for jet lag once people however are stable in a new time zone

melatonin does not seem to be efficacious for helping sleep that said though if people out there take melatonin and they think it helps I would tell him to keep taking it because the placebo effect is the most reliable affecting all of pharmacology so if it works for you no harm no foul to take me an interesting so the people that take melatonin nightly like this is what gets me go to bed really they're just playing a trick on their mind yeah unless you an older individual where yours have 24-hour rhythms cut your circadian rhythm starts to get blunted and it's not a strong anymore that's what night nightly use of melatonin actually has been demonstrated to be efficacious but if you're young healthy and you're taking melatonin it's unlikely that it's actually helping asleep that's probably the placebo so really should just be just for traveling situation that's right

definitely you know that's one way that you can have Jack like I mean there's no cure for jet-lag but this actually lots of ways that you can hack just like are there any other vitamins or nutrients or particular foods that enhance the Sleepy affect about tryptophan I really thought the trip to fan was in turkey and what was really going on was that you just ate a gigantic meal and it's filled with stuffing and mashed potatoes and all those carbohydrates cause you to his crash and it's usually it's the time then everyone goes back through instead of the living room you like down what you think the numbers are sleep-deprived people in this country so we know those numbers actually almost 1 out of every two adults in America are not getting the recommended 8 hours of sleep

almost 1 out of every three people that you pass on the sleep on the street to try to survive on 6 oz glass of sleep I'm back in 1942 Gallup to the pole and what they found was that the average American adult was sleeping 7.9 hours of sleep a night now that number the most recent he is down to 6 hours and 31 minutes for the average adult during the week in America that's the average by the way that means that there's a huge swath of people well below average and what about the people that say that they sleep they go to bed they were they sleep 5 hours they wake up they feel great said bullshit we have the number of people who can survive on 6 hours of sleep will last without showing any empowerment rounded to a whole number and expressed as a percent of the population is zero

wow wow 0

and one of the big problems with the lack of sleep by the way is that you don't know you're sleep deprived when you're sleep deprived so you'll subjective sense of how well you're doing with the lack of sleep is a miserable predictor of objectively right you doing since I could sleep right man you find Strife subject objectively trust me you're not the same way with sleep deprivation that's fast moving so but you're not drunk so even though you're impaired you don't feel like you're impaired you just and you probably have a couple espressos or I'm going to the caveman coffee she feel fine right you get used up you ready to go and you're trying to accomplish things you're trying to succeed right you're trying to get ahead in this life I don't need to sleep and it's and that's completely country intuitive lights on the days that we know that people off more productive

I'm recently studied in the workplace where you look at the first lie under slept employees will take on fuel up challenges overall they end up taking the the simple ones like listening to voice messages rather than actually digging into deep Project Blog they produce fewer Creative Solutions to challenges that you give them they also slack off when they're working in groups called social loafing where they just ride the coattails of other people's hard work that you have the more that you just serve don't pull your weight for the more it goes all the way up to the top so the more or less sleep at a business leader has had from one night to the next the more or less charismatic that employees will rate that business leader despite them knowing nothing about the sleep of that see it's evident in the behavior will because they're short with the another of those short their temper are there quicker to get upset about things that are less charismatic and

social with the conversations I just want to go to work or productivity and it's always struck me as strange know why do we to the fovea value employees that undervalue sleep and if you look at your work force you know trust me everyone's going to be looking busy but it's like stationary bikes everyone's looking like they're working hot but there's no forward progress the scenery never changes that's what an under slept it what force will be for you now what about the amount of time that people spend at work I mean I know this is not related to to sleep but I've always felt like people work too much cuz I feel like you probably can get more done with less time they're so efficiency is what we are not another one of those things would sleep deprivation and I think many people when they have not a good night's sleep that you know that looking at this report and I realized I just read this paragraph the time and I still

come quite guess is you had scrambled efficiency you know productivity but I would feel like when people working 8 hours a day I don't think that you can work at Peak capacity for 8 hours at least I don't think the average person get out of Uconn sustain that yeah I'm so you're kind of bleeding these people you're getting blood out of a rock in the last couple hours and it's it's not you know either a creative way to work in creativity University's be the engine of a new business but why would you you know take twice the amount of time to boil a peanut a pot of water on half heat when you could do it in half the time if you just put it on high go back to sleep you know it's interesting though there are certain writers who use sleep deprivation as a strategy for creativity they literally don't start like the writer's for the sitcom I was on news radio they wouldn't start writing till like 2:30 in the morning they were just play video games and fuck around and then late at night they would really

writing a new dryer till like 7 the morning they would be they would stumble into the set like Barefoot Delirious hair all fucked up with hilarious grips and it's like they had used being silly and over tired as a strategy almost like they are doing drugs right they weren't doing any drugs I mean it comes back there Twilight we did it we don't know and that's not what we have found in all scientific studies is that that prefrontal cortex region that we spoke about before that set of rational logical part of the brain that's one of the first things to go when you're sleep deprived that area of the brain just gets to the switch off the more that you should have laughing in your sleep and emotional deep emotional centers of the brain which are normally controlled and kept in check by that prefrontal cortex they just erupt in terms of their activity so you all emotional gas pedal into little regulatory control brake switch for the most part very bad

but you know one possibility is that if you want to try and get a little bit so that you know crazy loosey-goosey and maybe that's not bad but that type of suit of comedic writing that you eat at you become a bit more childlike and I say that affectionately because the last part of the brain to mature in development is the prefrontal cortex so you would have back to almost there more childlike state but I wouldn't I honestly would not condone that citizens you know undergoing sleep just based on the mortality in you know that risk of Alzheimer's and cancer by itself you just don't understand leave even in short doses like a couple days a week like they sleep is not a renewable resource like what is the effect of say if you have three nights a week where you sleep 8 hours and then the next night 2 hours

and then the next night 8 hours how much of a bump or how much of a dip does that 2 hours give you and your overall health is bad it's bad so I'll give you two examples that there is a study where they just took individuals and they just gave him 4 hours of sleep for one night and what they saw it was a 70% reduction in critical empty come to fighting immune cells called natural killer cells these off wonderful immune assassin's that Target malignant cells so today both you and I have produced cancer cells in our body what prevents those kinds of cells from becoming the disease that we cool concert is in pot these natural killer cells and after one night at 4 hours of sleep that is a remarkable state of immune deficiency and that's one of the reasons why insufficient sleep predicts cancer I can also speak about your cardiovascular system though and all it takes is one hour because there was a global experiment that's performed on 1.6 billion

across 70 countries twice a year and it's cool daylight savings time now in the spring when we lose an hour of sleep we see a subsequent 24% increase in heart attacks what in the fool in the ottoman we gain an hour of sleep does a 21% decrease in heart attacks so it's bi-directional that's how fragile and vulnerable your body is to even just the smallest participation of sleep 1 hour

that is your blowing my fucking mind it's fine you can go even further by the way I get insufficient sleep even wrote The Very fabric of biological life itself your DNA code so in one study they took a group of healthy adults and they limited them to 6 hours of sleep for one week and they can put the profile of gene activity relative to when those same people getting 8 hours of sleep and there were two critical results the first was that a sizable 711 jeans with distorted in their activity caused by one week of 6 hours of sleep

which is highly relevant by the way because we know that many people are trying to survive on 6 hours of sleep during the week wow the second interesting result was that about half of those jeans were actually increase in their activity the other half were actually suppress those jeans that was switched off by 6 hours of sleep one week what genes related to your immune response many of them so you become immune deficient those jeans that were increased or we go over expressed which means that we related to the promotion of chumas jeans that were related to long-term chronic inflammation within the body and jeans that were associated with stress and as a consequence cardiovascular disease this is unbelievable you know it's really disturbing to me in my used from age probably I guess I was price 18 when I started I delivered newspapers

drive around and throw newspapers out of my car and I did it for years and I would have to be up at 5 every morning and I never never went to bed early ever and I work 365 days a year and I started when I was 18 I might have been 17 whenever I started driving I drove it 16 but I don't think I started right away delivering newspapers but I was trying to find a good part time job I think I was like either in my senior year of high school or after I think right after my senior year of high school so probably 18 Okay Glass by the way is because I should go through into their stuff later stages about Austin since its early adulthood you'll biological Rhythm moves forward in time so you want to go to bed later and wake up later if you went to bed so conscientiously at that time at the taste like 10 online you wouldn't be able to sleep because it biologically impossible no I didn't sleep again on Saturday even worse one day a week sad

goodnight I have to get up at 3 or 4 in the morning because I had to deliver Sunday papers in the Sunday papers were enormous and so I had to pack of Van filled with side 350 people that deliver papers too so I had to do multiple trips side start work at I start delivering somewhere around 4:35 depending on when the papers got in and I was done by like 9 you know 9:30 not to try to crash but I was all Wreck-It fuck me up for years for years I did that and I stop and think about that now listening to you sing this conversation what kind of damage that I do to myself over those years now and tell you about the stuff without Simas 10 it feel okay now it's been it's been several decades did I mention that your subjective sense of how well you're doing with insufficient sleep isn't known as I'm sure you did and I'm sure there's a factor there what stunning to me is that 6 hours is so detrimental

I would have thought that I've been fine to 6 hours is good I can get 6 hours as good that's normal for me like 6 hours is normal IQ literally the minimum 77297 you need for the fraction of 1% of the population that has a special Gene that allows them to survive on about 5 hours of sleep and most people when I tell him that I am much more likely for example to be struck by lightning in your lifetime the odds of which I think about 1in 12500 than you ought to have this incredibly red Gene that means you can survive on something around 5 hours of sleep really know what is the gene well it's a gene that seems to promote set of again wakefulness chemistry within the brain that allows you to sort of maintain

Anamosa Steinway and so I only trying to understand right now what the actual biochemical mechanisms are in terms of the consequence of that Gene that gene mutation but sadly it seems to exist that there are some of those quote-unquote short sleepers by the way you know we hear of these Business Leaders and even actually heads of state or not going to name any names but I'll give you right now but I'll give you two examples of the past Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan both what vociferous in the statement in the Declaration of how little sleep that they would get both of them said for 5 hours a night and I think it was to paint this heroic Ironclad status well sadly in tragically Thatcher and Reagan both ended up getting Alzheimer's disease you know I'm we now know because of its during deep sleep at night. There is a sewage system

the brain that kicks into high gear and it cleanses the brain of all of the metabolic toxins that are being built up throughout the day this low-level brain damage one of those toxic sticky proteins that build the bus were awake is cooled PC Emma Lloyd be to Emily just one of the leading causes of underlying the mechanism of Alzheimer's disease so the less sleep that you're having a cross the lifespan the more of that toxic amyloid is building up nice after night year after year I don't think it's coincidence that both of them ended up progressing into a tragically into a stage of Alzheimer's disease. Good night sleep cleaning that weigh in tons of of deep sleep. Study that is stunning are there anything is there anything you can do in terms of how you eat or supplements you can take that could potentially at least somewhat mitigate the effects of having no sleep

we haven't found any good countermeasures diet pills so people have tried at things like ephedrine amphetamines know I'm caffeine has been used to teach ugly by the military for years and caffeine can help you get over the basic reduction in your alertness a basic response times you can you can dose with caffeine and still maintain some degree of a fast response under conditions of sleep deprivation what about provigil or Nuvigil and acetic acid modafinil like chemical Aaron debated who actually came up with it maybe in the French military who actually ended up being the degenerates of that that seems to work through a pathway at least right now is me and just ended I'm freaking vehicle code dopamine dopamine is principally known as pleasure drug it's the chemical that a lot of trucks but useful Target to set of ramp-up but it also is a basic alertness truck that when you go

an increase in dopamine you tend to actually get an increase in your love this in your wakefulness don't you get an increase in happiness as well you can too although modafinil tends to come with the alertness component of that equation and less so with the Euphoria that's why it has a lower prevalence of to the addiction and abuse for I know a lot of people who I wouldn't say they were abused it but they say they have to use it like that all the doctor says doctor says I got to use it and I'm always suspicious because they seem pretty normal other than the fact that they they're exhausted if they don't take this which was essentially stimulant I've taken it a few times I've taken it when I have to drive like long periods of time like I'm driving from San Diego to California or two y Los Angeles and maybe I have a gig my gigs on at like 11:30 I know I'm going to be on the road late at night I might take one and it's fine but it gives you this weird feeling it's a weird State and I know Al

attack people a lot of Silicon Valley is on the stuff and they pop it like candy so much so the Tim Ferriss when he was writing his book The 4-Hour Body he didn't want included anyone include this particular drug because he felt like people just going to eat it all the time that you can populations as well as adderal one of the interesting things is that if you look at the the profile of what sleep deprivation is cognitively you know reduced alertness impulsivity lack of ability to concentrate difficulties with learning and memory difficulties with behavioral problems

if I were to describe those features to a pediatrician and say what disorder is this probably say it's

it's ADHD but we now know is that there is some portion of children out there who are diagnosed with ADHD who either one or just under slept or to actually have sleep-disordered breathing because of perhaps tonsil problems with a not getting sufficient sleep and when you treat the Sleep Disorder when you do is it in a remove the tonsils they start sleeping normally and the ADHD he disappears well so there is an issue here I think within that said of the explosion of ADHD notable people you know privy to this stuff sleep problems simply masquerading it's ADHD but some people are one of the other problems too though is that ADHD kids tend not to sleep very well and what we end up giving them is a drug that is a stimulant which will combat sleep and fight back against sleep so I think we need to have a bit more of a strategic approach it to when we think about at least the dose of those that medication in terms of when sleep should be

expected during the day cuz you know taking it in the middle of the day in the evening and if it's stimulants wake promoting drug it's be pretty cuff sleep is part of that it was too that's terrifying because I don't know if the people that are prescribing these things have the sort of deep education and sleep and then Sin City of it that you do they don't I don't you know it's not that at all it's you that doctors stop prescribing sleep and don't make the mistake that that's me suggesting prescribing sleeping pills that's a separate straight sleeping pills are associated with significantly higher risk of death in cancer and I'm happy to speak about that to the one chapter in the book that I think the the legal team with my published took a very long long look at but I think Doug just come back to your point they on average only have about 2 hours of sleep education in the medical curriculum so warm fashion hours 2 hours one third of this podcast has been 2 hours

fucking crazy it says that's terrifying and I bet you probably have laid things out better in this podcast than you would get in those two hours of Education I don't know about that but I think I'll give you a credit increase that you know I'm but they only get 2 hours of Education in but the other problem is the medical industry Itself by the way you know that residents that data in Juniata residents working a 30-hour shift off 465 sent more likely to make diagnostic errors in the Intensive Care Unit relative to when they're working 16 hours if you have elective surgery you should ask your sergeant how much sleep I've had in the past 24 hours if they had 6 hours of sleep will last you have a 170% increase risk of major surgical error such as significant damage or hemorrhaging relative to that same surgeon

if they should be well-rested I'm in the irony here by the way is that when a resident finishes a 30-hour shift gets back into that cause drive home there is a 168% increase risk that they will get into a car accident because of the underside of State being ending up back in the same emergency room where they just came from but now is a patient she's going to Cochrane we need to radically rethink the importance of sleep in education in in business in the workplace and in medicine to why do they do that to Residence it's a fascinating story guy called William Halsted and he set up the first resident surgical program in the United States at Johns Hopkins University

and he was known for being able to stay awake for these growing length of time days on end is incredible like superhuman strength turns out that in later years after he died there was a dirty secret that he was actually a cocaine addict. Son of a bitch and he wasn't his call but he was examining the anesthetic capacities of cocaine so you know if you may have heard from Project colleagues that when you snort cocaine you get the numb face the reason is because it's it blocks nerve so I tell you said it from colleagues actually never done cocaine out of quite a few people who have numbness it's the reason is because cocaine is also a nerve blocking agent like lidocaine lidocaine

Alex the initial dr. Sistar doing lidocaine post it was one of them and he stretchy to program what he expected his residence to match him to go toe-to-toe with him unbelievable the story was that he actually knew that there was a problem he went to Rehabilitation checked in under a different surname and one part of the regiment for him coming off cocaine was to prescribe morphine and at the end of the rehabilitation program he came out with both of cocaine addiction and heroin addiction that he would get his shirts laundered in Paris you know in France and you know they would come back and it wasn't just a white starched you know shuts back but we're in the box that we were

white substance is too but that's you know you asked a great question would that come from was that history the Legacy seems the date back to William Halsted who is an accidental cocaine addicting and then we've been maintained that inhumane practice in medicine so critical to be awake and aware and to be sharp your house people open your operating on people I think back to what you said to get about being awake you know you would never accept treatment from a doctor who started going to looking at your child who sick with an appendicitis at 3 a.m. in the morning who dance week some whiskey and says yeah I'm going to do the operation spy you would you've got ballistic well why do we accept treatment or after 20 hours of being awake you are as important as you would be if you were legally drunk so unfortunately we placed young residents in this position of acting and operating in decision-making under conditions of insufficient sleep

five medical residents will make a serious medical error due to insufficient sleep one in 20 medical residents will kill a patient because of a fatigue-related era

1 and 20 right now you know there are well over 20,000 medical residents at if you have a hundred of them 5 or going to kill people accidental deaths think about that none but that's insane if we were to solve the sleepless epidemic in medicine that we could start saving lives and I don't know what it is is it just you know an old boys network we will we went through it so you've got to go through it you know under the day so now it's so prolific and I write to all about that I've tried to make a builder and evidence-based you know emotionless Cold Case for Sleep Inn medicine sleep prescription for medicine is it what will most people don't realize the requirements of residents have

and and they are they are literally going to be on human capacity thinking that you know hubris and some degree of hours on the job is going to be able to allow you to sit if you could short what took three and a half million years to set Aveeno guessing place which is an 8-hour nights of sleep that's just thick-headed you know it's like the medical profession it may be at the stage where it's My Mind Is Made Up don't confuse me with the fact that this is blowing me away I just don't understand how the very people that are working on the health of patients and fixing them and repairing injuries and taking care of diseases those are the people that are ignoring one of the primary factors of disease and errors and cognitive function it's it's impairment it's a travesty I have a friend who is an opthamologist he tells a story about during his residence

he was is back in the 80s and had a pager he was on the toilet with a tray of food on his lap because he didn't have time to eat and go to the bathroom so is eating food and he fell asleep and then his pager went off he's like fuckmylife state if you sleep with your trousers around your ankles and yet you're in the deepest stages of non-rem sleep and he's a guy was working on people's eyes it's crazy

yeah I mean I didn't sleep is equally absent for the patient in the hospital you know setting we know that somewhere between 50 to 70% of all I see you alarms either unnecessary or ignorable on the one place where you desperately need the Swiss army knife of Health that is a good nights of sleep in the one place where you get at least which is on a hospital or we could we could exit people out of hospital beds Elliott the date was already there for the neonatal Intensive Care Unit that used to leave bright lights on 24/7 right and that would prevent set of the signaling for sleep and wake and sleep and waking up cycle is critical if you regularize sleep after a few regular eyes the light in the neonatal Intensive Care Unit those infants ended up having high levels of oxygen saturation cuz they were sleeping better that weight gain was dramatically increased and the ending of exiting the neonatal Intensive Care Unit 5

weeks earlier wow simple things you why don't we do something like this in medicine when you come in on to a hospital would you get this on an international flight travel to free earplugs face mask even just that by itself could help people to stop get back to sleep next on the hospital admission form tell me when you normally go to sleep and when you normally wake up and to the best of our ability Williams doctors will try to send you know manage your health care around your natural sleep Tendencies if we could do that you know sleep is is the elixir of life it is the most widely available Democratic and Powerful Healthcare System I could ever possibly imagine why don't we leveraging that and taking it that's one of the greatest hacks that medicine could actually you know in fact that is stunning

I was just being received by doctors are they were locked in to listen to you or me what would it what is happening with all this data and you're you're passionate Cry 4 extra sleep or more sleep for the proper sleep I should say it's starting to happen I mean when the book came out which is sit at The Hobbit came back I was in back in October and some people started to give push back some sort of in the medicine realm you know that there was some concerns about continuity of care that if you keep switching residents out every 16 hours that you wouldn't have continuous patient care in that was a problem I'm well there are other medical training systems are for example France Sweden you Zealand they do this all the time they do not allow that residents to undergo anything longer than either of 14 or 16 hour shift they train their residents in the same amount of time or less and if you look at the rankings of the medical health systems around the world they ranked far higher than the United

States so you can't tell me that longer work hours for residence for example on necessary to train the doctor's the evidence just didn't support himself had some pushback the but for the most part I think people are receptive once they know the information and I think I'm the IP in the someone who's to blame here I've known this evidence for you know I've been doing sleep research now for 20 or so years we all with sleep where we were with smoking 50 years ago we had all of the evidence about the deathly carcinogenic cardiovascular disease issues but the public and not being a word no one had adequately communicated the science of you know smoking to public the same I think is true for sleep right now that's part of the motivation for why I wrote the book why I've been doing trying to do a lot of publicity bypass and I don't like being in the spotlight but I feel as though there is a mission that whose voice is not be naturally gifted yet

wanted to try and help him via the service link diplomatic mean that's why I choose to handle on social media trying to be there as an ambassador for sleep and now once people start to understand the science if we've spoken about 52 hours then people start to actually realize it's not the third pillar of good health alongside diet and exercise to the foundation on which those two other things said in a pretty simple if your dieting but you're not getting sufficient sleep 70% of all the weight that you lose will come from lean body mass muscle and not fat your body becomes stingy in giving up its fat when it's under slept so once you get this information out the things are starting to change I've started to have some discussions with the World Health Organization they seem to be very interested now and in getting getting some good sleep I love to speak to First World governments though when was the last time you saw any first world nation have a government supported Public Health campaign around sleep

I don't know any we've had them for you know drink-driving for risky behaviors you know for drugs or alcohol for healthy eating sleep should be a part of that equation and I want to the lobby governments to start to instigate this and it will save them millions of dollars the Rand Corporation did an independent survey 2 years ago on the demonstrable cost of a lack of sleep to Global economies what they found was that a lack of sleep cost most Nations about 2% of the GDP the gross domestic product here in America that number was 411 billion dollars caused by insufficient sleep solve the sleepless epidemic you could almost double the budget for Education you could almost half the deficit for healthcare

wow what studies if any have been done on people who live in the Northern Hemisphere for the experience these long days like Alaska and Siberia place like that it's really tough but the regulation of this Acadian Rhythm and what they lot of people that not all but a lot of people will suffer from what's called seasonal affective disorder which is the winter Blues Fortune acronym sadd stop to comes along you say look I'm not feeling good it's the winter time well you're sad you know I know I know I'm sorry it's in medical sat seasonal seasonal affective disorder that dates are is is quite powerful to and you end up having to use melatonin strategically to help you fall asleep to set up signal darkness in the summer time when it's really like almost all day and then in the winter time you reverse engineer the trick and in the morning you said you have your breakfast are you working at your terminal and you have one of these

light boxes that sits next to you strong looks powerlite to try and fool your brain into thinking that you're getting a lot of daylight when it's you know it's not going to be like for the next 4 hours so they have to undergo treatment do they have to do vitamin D supplementation as well some of that too yeah because of lack of exposure for the skin to UV light listen man you just open up a lot of people's minds you certainly did mind it mean this at this podcast blew me away I thought I knew a little bit about sleep I knew nothing thank you so much and since people how they could read your book work they get it what's your website yes so I'm all over the social media and web pages by slim and the book is called why we sleep on AC is out now on Amazon and Old Major booksellers and that's probably the best way that they can learn all about sleeping frightening The Living Daylights out of

thank you so much Matt I really really appreciate how you lost me up sleep well thank you you too thanks

it was good right I didn't lie

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that's it we did it God damn those important podcast I really really enjoyed that I mean that guy fucking blew me away important stuff alright that's it for today we'll see you soon bye bye

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