#1110 - Zach Bitter

The Joe Rogan Experience #1110 - Zach Bitter

April 26, 2018

Zach Bitter is an endurance athlete, ultramarathon runner and coach. He holds the current American 100-mile record at 11:40:55.

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this episode is brought to you by Onnit most of them are kind of rain

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what are things we do it on it we we make these fucking beautiful kettlebells we have Primal Bells which are the great apes we have chimps howler monkeys gorillas orangutans and Bigfoot and I had a guy named Three Sheets he's three sheets on Instagram I think that's his thing going to find out real quick for you guys he did some fucking amazing artwork for these things he took the

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kettlebells and painted them like Planet of the Apes so like the chant like when the chips are going to war in Planet of the Apes on Twitter the number 3 and then sheets he does awesome stuff if you're into kettlebells we have it on it these 3d balance kettlebell so they function like a regular kettlebell but they're beautiful they're artistically designed and 3D balanced so they're not like wonky when you use them but they look fucking sick we have them also now in the Star Wars collection we have Boba Fett Darth Vader and Stormtrooper we have an Iron Man kettlebell

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will too much for me to mention zombies have a werewolf Cyclops I can go on and on but what else we have is a host of strength adult fucking shit ton of awesome strength conditioning equipment stuff that builds functional strength things like steel clubs and steel maces and battle ropes and sandbags functional strength the idea behind functional strength exercises that promote real strength in athletics like martial arts in particular switch what I'm interested in nothing that I found is help me in Jiu-Jitsu more than kettlebells because they make your whole body move as one unit you could do some fantastic conditioning workout drills with them

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I really highly recommend Keith Weber's extreme kettlebell cardio series he has several DVDs out those are also available on it go to on it click on the academy link and that's one of my favorite sections of the site I go to all the time it's free go check it out right now it's hundreds of articles on diet nutrition exercise physiology different strength and conditioning routines q and A's with interesting people and there's a real Academy in actual physical Academy in Austin Texas it has 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu classes they are bang Muay Thai and of course a state-of-the-art strength and conditioning equipment and classes and just it's the shit it's got an awesome 5-2 it's got a great environment really cool people there go to onnit.com o n n i t use the code word rogan and you will save 10% off any and all supplements we are also brought to you by

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netsuite.com Ford Rogan get netsuite's guide crushing the five barriers to growth when you go to netsuite.com Ford Rogan now and you can download for free crushing the five barriers to growth again netsuite.com Ford's Rogan Tiffany Dance people complain about that hey fucker I can shove them in the middle somewhere sometimes I'm a little too long I get it but I'm a Ramblin Man for for for for Mike yesterday though is not a rambler this motherfukers Runner my guess today is Zach bitter and he's a fucking beast this guy is an animal I mean

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here and we found this out like deep in the podcast he ran a hundred miles by doing a 7 minute mile 7 minutes and 1 second per mile for a hundred miles

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just holy shit that hurts my head he broke the u.s. 100 mile record and he's doing all this which is interesting on a low-carb diet but not that simple it's not that simple it's very complicated and he really delved into the science of adjusting manipulating his diet and really interesting I am fascinated by these kind of people these ultramarathon psychos in this guy is one of the elite so please give it up for Zach bitter

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Joe Rogan Park

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all day

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boom and we're off what's up brother how are you good good thanks for having me on my pleasure nice to meet you man you know it's funny that you just brought up dr. Atiya you know we were we were you were saying that you download the podcast you're saying I got to get that guy on it was funny I ate I was an auto downloads in that one popped up and I remember thinking about a week before that I was like well when I when we first schedule this one as a guy I told you about dr. tau is one kind of first guys I really followed when I kind of dope in town of a high-fat approach to to nutrition so yeah he's a bastard in guy was great listen I had to listen to it like twice so he's one of those guys were you talk to him you think I owe this a good normal really nice guy and then as he starts getting to the medical aspect of things go oh yeah I remember one of the first things he ever said that really kind of resonated with me was I think someone was asking him about like what the facts are where the ketogenic diet in terms of like micronutrients and what maybe he'd be

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sing based on kind of like that normal profile of what you're supposed to get in and he was just like you know it's it's interesting because most of those studies and recommendations are based off of basically a standard American diet or higher carb diet so he's like well you might just not need the same we need to do more and he's always looking to kind of push the envelope a bit so cool gas for sure I'm fascinated by you and I'm fascinated by anybody who does the kind of shit that you do I mean please explain to people all the different ultra-marathons you've done in like what you've accomplished yeah you know it's it's interesting because like I still kind of see myself as a pre average Runner because like I competed in high school and made state cross country and state track in that kind of thing for a small school and I went to a small division 3 school and was pretty much in your average wants a real good program at the D3 level and I always do

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did kind of like running longer though so like once I got done with college I kind of decided Well let's let's see what's longer than some of those traditional like Collegiate races of like 5K and then I started kind of just download that stuff and then and in 2010 I think I actually my first ultramarathon you know partly because I was just like looking around and it turned out to be one in the state I was living in Wisconsin at a time and there was one that was kind of in my neck of the woods and I actually had just decided to go back to grad school and that one had a $1,000 prize purse on it I'd like to know what if I if I can win that thousand bucks go a long way during grad school so I did that one and I ended up winning it and it is definitely talk to me it was like the type of thing where I was like I want to do more of these and buy 2011 I kind of jumped all in at the end of the year and ended 350 Mi and I think it was a 9 week time frame

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and that's so crazy I mean it gets crazier there's there's some freaks out there on those guys will do like a couple in the weekend and stuff like that so it never ends but yeah you know it was one of those things or after that I was totally hooked so you know I had to be partly just a little bit of success you know I wasn't necessarily used to winning so like I mean I can I had a good races and Good Times relative to what you probably see like an average person but you know what I want to like a competitive 5K competitive Marathon or something like that you know I wasn't going to win unless it was kind of a local race so kind of finding you know it's like anything I guess you kind of gravitate to what you feel you're good at and then that kind of pizza are interest that was part of it the other part was just I really enjoyed doing the long run like when you break up kind of like a training week you have like a variety of different things you've got like kind of snow base level runs you got specific workouts for the disc

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and send the most training programs I'm going to have a long run once a week and that was the one that was always my favorite so wrapping my head around doing a bunch of those a week instead of just one was was really a kind of appealing to me and when you're putting that much time into one of your training for it's nothing important to enjoy it so being with the kind of enjoy the training process a lot was really appealing to me and then it's just a very little snake when you're out there for that long there so many variables to consider and it's like it's a blast for me to kind of like work through those plan for those and then adjusted them on the fly when you're out there and you know things in a little bit stronger things pop up that you didn't expect so it's it's it's just it's kind of hard to explain but it it's it's weird one of the things an ultramarathon Runner people always say is like they'll have a race and you would have a bad race say I've never done one of these again and then the next day they're on on the internet looking for another race so it's this is weird thing about it that you don't really know until you do it but it it sucks you in

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probably talk about things that are like that they have to suffer through you know I've heard that when guys talk about like those extreme hikes you know when they in the like they do that you know that one that goes from Georgia all the way to Maine yet dies down there's something about that challenge that stimulates in people like you and people that are into these really long distance things like there's something about distance to something about like what you were saying like you weren't the best runner in high school or college right but there's something about the mind of an ultramarathon it's a different mind the purse the type of person that can run a hundred mile 238 Mi a mental strength in the ability to just keep going on and on and on that I'm absolutely fastener

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yeah you know what it is interesting to cuz it's the sports grown up quite a bit in the last decade or so but it's still very much kind of an itch group and then we kind of hang out in that group he starts going to normalize a little bit I think so then you start thinking like a hundred miles it's just what we do and then you you know we actually try to like separate yourself from the fact that you've done a few of those or separate yourself from the fact that you've been hanging out with other people doing it you realize oh this is actually kind of a weird thing to kind of do as soon as I can if you want it's I think I've done just shy of 50 total now you know everything from 50 km to the furthest I've done is 200 km 25 M I look to see how many have one it's it's it's it's really goofy cuz when you start getting into the longer stuff like a hundred miles and Beyond you start at least in my training program you start to kind of pic smaller races too kind of user

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training runs in some of it I think it's just because for me if I'm going to go out and do like a 30 mile or 40 mile training run or something like that it's kind of tedious to do that by yourself and then plan all the logistics of it so if there is a race nearby and that's not too hard to get to it's easier to sign up for that going to do that so some of those you know all win if there if they're small enough even though I'm not necessarily trying to go for the new golf call out so to speak cuz I'm hoping to recover kind of in and get back into training this a real hard thing for a lot of people to do I think it's like you go into a race saying this is going to be a moderately difficult long run so maybe a little faster than what I would do if I was just going to do it by myself like unsupported that sort of thing and then I always tell myself 80% is the hardest you can go if you want to be able to come back and start training on time to meet the actual goal of the a race

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so when I do those it's like that's one of those things where I like you know if you know someone might show up that's that's like as fast as you or maybe a little slower than you normal and if they're deciding to just hammer it that day he might beat you and you got to be okay with that flare up there the main reason why some people approach they stay away from races unless it's there a race and they just Sam if I'm going to do a long run I'll do it on my own and and and you are not do that or you know they're certainly I'm sure folks to do it and then they get caught up and then ended up leaving Ray Rice out on on the B race I guess so to speak so yeah it's interesting it's a it's kind of a sport that I think is still a lot to learn which I think is actually the case for a lot of things that you know even things that are well-established you know there's always something to learn new things to pick up on one of those things

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start doing it like you said it almost becomes normalized and then people start to try to push that boundary I've been hearing talk about the woman Candice who runs the Moab 240 if they're talking about doing 500 I heard that in 5 years will get used to like 4-5 Day races so it's really fast I took me a couple years to do this before I got into the sport but once I was in for a couple years I kind of did a little a little a little research and see like what the deal was with on some of the stuff in the funny thing is like that type of a distance isn't even on heard of they actually have to go to book is called but and they actually had in Madison Square Garden they used to host a 6-day event where guys and gals I found out you're overdoing it back then but guys for sure we're going there and see how far they could run in 6 days and I know crazy and I think if I remember right they would actually the people

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betting on them that way until they fill it up like people with common water on spec spectacles it was in the lady when I started it I'm not sure when it cycling the Six-Day grind at Madison Square Garden into cycling the Six-Day grind at Madison Square Garden and so it's just a track and these people are disses old timey shit

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Nike I just went down and so they're they're just ride their bike for 6 days ago shit when they wipe out oh my God they probably a terrible brakes back then right yeah that was their feet to the probably are the railing nothing new it's the trail running scene is definitely way bigger than like the road running or certainly the track track scene but that wasn't always the case if you look back until like the seventies and eighties there was a pretty big surgeon ultra-marathon running for flat fast off that's where we see a lot of the the records coming from track or a road of really Flat Road King about the first time you did one was on a track in circles on track which is almost got to be more taxing for your mind cuz you're just seeing the same shit over and over and over again

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it's really fast things I've done I've done both again hundred miles on the trail and I've done hundred miles on it for me to track and the fascinating thing is it is like what you said it's almost a different event where mentally you're doing everything you can on that tractor kind of separate yourself from the actual environment and vision yourself being somewhere else you know looking forward to little things that kind of not necessarily you thinking too far in advance as I can get overwhelming where is when I'm out on the trails it's like you're using a pretty pristine beautiful area and you can kind of just take it as it comes it's all cool and I'll get to see that or this is an area I like this section and you look you look forward to that kind of diversity where is on the track it's you need to see it once and you seen it every time and then you know what just kind of beat you up mentally from that side of things but then you know there's other things about that to that that help out like logistically I'm when you're on a track for 400 meters you bring out one person you put everything you may possibly want on a little table and if I want something I said hey can I get that for me this later I have it and you

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beautiful mess it up I'll get 400 years after that so grown but like you mess up your age station or if you get caught up in the moment and just blow through it and don't take care of yourself you might have to suffer for an hour plus before you get help again so that's where kind of gets a little different I think the logistic Lee when you're on the trails verses verses on the road but but yeah it's it's kind of a different thing the track is interesting to in the sense that you're essentially making that same exact most exact motion the whole way so like there's certain areas of your body that fatigue and they don't separate the turn and just run flat and running flat you're going to localize some of the way you stimulate your muscles or gate is going to be pretty similar throughout where's me on the trail that you might be going on a slight incline steep incline slight decline a little bit of flats and rolling all kinds of things in between and then Trails can be kind of undulating so you're just kind

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moving all that forces around your legs a little more than you would be when you're running on a flat surface so you know it's one of the things that I always tell like my coaching clients and and myself when I'm planning or something is like if you really wanted me to full potential like specificity is King you need to be on that environment in the environment you're going to race on a really get your body used to kind of that type of a Move Motion and it makes it a little more interesting when you're doing the track races that means some kind of long runs on a track so you're kind of balancing doing just enough to get ready for it and not doing too much so that when you get to the race you're like screw this I've done too much of the sorry I don't want to see another bloop that's kind of a an interesting concept it's interesting to me to that you're if you're planning to run a hundred miles like what you were saying about running the shorter races as a training run which makes sense because how else he going to prepare for a hundred miles like if you just decided to just go out and run a hundred miles you feel like map it out like how far is a hundred miles where am I going to park

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India and then people also kind of get like forget about the aspect just all the stuff surrounding the race that you can kind of fine-tune when you're doing a race as a kind of training run where like you know usually you're going to have a little bit for stuff like this so you're probably going to stay in a hotel the night before you're going to have to wake up early in the morning after they get your your your gear ready and so it's kind of like going through that process of what you have to do on race day so then when your big race comes up you're like okay I've done this three or four times in the last 6 months so I know what I'm doing in this is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about this is that you you are on a fat burning diet you're essentially you're on a ketogenic diet and running these races yeah you know it's it's a little interesting because the way I kind of let least the way I came into it like I explored the ketogenic diet mainly because I started noticing something

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can you explain the ketogenic diet back in late 2011 because I started noticing some simple things going on with my body from from the from the high level of training and then in the racing and that's right around that same time I did those 350 miles in in 9 weeks like 3 or 4 times at night and then like pee all the time at night and I have like swelling in my ankles and stop a lot of just like you Gentry swings throughout the day like I would yeah I was I was a teacher at the time so I remember thinking like everyday I like one or two I could have laid down to take a nap on Spotify had had the opportunity to so it was just like a lot of weird things that I thought was pretty abnormal for 25 year old male at the time and it's so it was kind of becoming clear to me that what I was doing was either unsustainable or the way I was doing was unsustainable and you know I was really intrigued by the sport and I didn't really want to necessarily back off of that if I

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have to that's when I can start to explore nutrition and diet and things like that and I was very much following what I would have considered a healthy diet for that at the time it was it was high-carbohydrate but it was like what you would you think of as a healthy High carbohydrate diet would like to go for a run and then have like some oatmeal raisins maybe some fruit or something like that some some eggs or something with the with that in the morning Focus heavily on that and make sure I wasn't eating like junk junk food I wasn't going through fast food restaurants or eating Oreos and bonbons and I didn't really realize that it was necessarily the nutritional side of things like it wasn't it wasn't like a big slap in the face in the sense that oh I just got it cut off the junk cuz like according to most people

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play junk I was eating really good food that's all you know that's what I kind of got introduced to some folks like dr. volek and dr. Finney who are kind of I guess I guess the pioneers of the latest way of a kind of the high-fat approach and you know they were I started reading it both listen to podcasts and things like that and and it stinks I was trying to help her to 20 hours a week at the time and you know I started kind of thinking like how much time am I going to invest in in just running in a how can I come to kill two birds with one stone in and that's kind of what I discovered podcasts and thought it was sweet I can learn something and rain at the same time and so I just kind of like one all in on listen to a bunch of you know podcast and stuff like that and when your previous guests Ben Greenfield was one of the first podcast I really kind of did a deep dive into and he was always kind of like rolling out stuff that was like kind of knew or Cutting Edge so

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you definitely had a lot of information there and I was a duck he definitely had a lot of info from guys like dr. Pinon dr. Pollack and I was lucky to meet those guys to on a couple occasions and with dr. Mollica Johnson podcast with him and certainly would you like to exchange emails and stuff when I pet questions and tested it out you know I was like what's the worst that can happen I can just go back and it's not like I have to stick to this to the rest of my life if it's not something your issues were swelling and energy and how wide your true that your diet like what was making me think those who died that was doing that to you I wasn't sure I thought I thought for sure that something I was doing was wrong and check your hormone levels all that stuff I didn't have blood work done as I would have liked to

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really like look at stuff in and see like the way I look at blood work is if you're doing it regularly like often enough and not changing things that we need to see the most cuz you need to see changes versus just like oh I'm chronically low in this or I'm always alone this but doesn't seem to be an issue but you know there was no big red flags on my blood work like nothing that would have said said like thyroid disease right yeah nothing nothing quite that wrong and you know it wasn't like the wheels were coming off at that point there were these were small things that I kind of associated like nagging things they they were like things I could get through but they were my deal so you know I'm kind of curious person like my whole life so I was I was just looking to can optimize I guess more lesson and I didn't know if it was going to work I was was terrified that I find out it wasn't and then I would have to stop running as much and at the time I was like that doesn't sound like what I want to do so this was just something I've decided to explore first

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and it gets its really goofy because it's like I'd certainly evolve in pan how I use it from that when I first started when I when I first started I went like really you kind of really low carb like that clinical ketosis level where you read about where they're like 50 grams of carbohydrates are Lassen you know I did that for about I think was like 4 to 6 weeks and I didn't have as hard of a time as what I think I've ever seen some people have with it you know you have people talking about everything from the keto flu too just like feeling really lethargic for a while before that kind of metabolic switch Clips what I kind of noticed was I felt really good doing like really like low-level type mundane tasks just like day-to-day work and things like that but like maybe every second or third day I go for a run and just feel awful and I kind of knew enough about it that I thought I could give us give this salad for weeks before I make any judgements on whether that's going to be something that sticks around or not

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and you happy about that point my energy levels kind of normalized and then you know I was so at that point I was like excited I was like this is sweet I should have mentioned to like it during that process I started sleeping through the night again which was like kind of really an eye-opening thing for me because usually like that wake up at least 3 times you know I I don't know for sure but you know could be anything from just the amount of stress I was causing on my body from kind of two angles from the training plus like you know like I don't want to demonize carbohydrates I think they have a place I think there are great tool I just think like the the question everyone should ask is at what level do they become kind of a margin of diminishing returns for you and you know what I think was blue likely happening is that you know I was preaching past that margin of diminishing returns and it was causing more stress than what my body was was able to tolerate and I

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calling Portersville spikes or something like that that was waking me up at night but you know who knows really like it's all I know is the only thing at that time I changed as my diet and it was probably point out that this is not Universal that everybody's diet is going to affect them differently zero issues with it whatsoever and it's that's why the weird things about people you don't sit that we are so variable depending upon your ancestry and what part of the world do they evolved it's it's fascinating to me I'll look at folks doing the opposite while I'm in there they're doing just fine and it's you know then I'll look at some folks to that are doing the opposite of me and they're doing just fine for a while and then they ultimately start noticing the same kind of things I did and then they can clean it up so it is kind of I think at the end of the day it's got to be honest with yourself and you know some people I think are really really robust

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they can hit their body with that high octane fuel carbohydrate day in and day out at a high level and it doesn't seem to bother him much but no other people like yet think just that it can kind of its like playing with rock if you a little bit we're in a little bit can be great in them too much of it and kind of burn it up a little bit so you're eventually moved to it so the way I call it like pure dies it so like when I look at my year you can pick out a week where I'm kind of in Peak training and then pick out a week where I'm kind of been like a recovery phase or offseason and it looks like two completely different Lifestyles so my first thought after kind of like working through the whole ketogenic approach cuz I should add to like once I got like feeling good about that I started adding back speed workouts and things like that and I definitely noticed that I was missing kind of that last year it was a lot more difficult to go out and really Throttle Down

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I could run all day at a slow pace but if I decide to go out in the track and do like 400 repeats at like a really fast like a really fast paced it was really hard to kind of up to be able to do that that's a common complaint Robb wolf wolf had a similar issue he's gotten like very heavily into Jujitsu and he was telling me that he just can't stick to that 50 grams of carbohydrate today yes still have the energy to go hard to notice Rob will work out more than one time a day I do not know he looks very fit though I'm not sure what it is what is schedule is but I know he works out very hard and if he's doing Jiu-Jitsu this really it's very difficult to do Jiu Jitsu any other way than hard sure you know I'm not trying to come come on here and say like everyone should switch to doing what I do and I think you should follow your own your own set your own personal self and if they be honest with yourself you feel great do what you're doing if you don't then probably have to change something

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but like one thing I'm always looking at now or suspecting is that like it's more about the recovery between efforts then it is about the intensity of the Opera tour the duration of the effort in terms of how much carbs you need to bring back or want to bring back because I've also had circumstances where like I'll do like a big workout or a race or something like that and then I'll go really easy for like a week and during that week I'll go at Super strict keto recovering I'm not doing anything intense I'm not doing anything too long so that's what at the point of my training where I kind of say alright let's get rid of the start the fast-acting fuel sources I don't need them right now and reset that whole fat adaptation thing I actually think it's it's when you're doubling down on those on a regular basis so like if you're working out really hard for like 45 minutes to an hour a day I think you can probably get away with almost a ketogenic or like a really low

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carbohydrate approach because you're giving yourself like 23 + hours between sessions for your body to kind of a restock glycogen stores from other areas like me from fat proteins and things like that I think when you start getting into the system where you're like myself I'm doing two days a lot and sometimes one of those is a speed session that's when I feel like I need to bring some by carbohydrate back and I think it probably just to get some of the glycogen and a little faster rate is that is going to replenish your glycogen stores faster is a carbohydrate than butt fatter or protein probably would so how many grams is a week of running strength training and Mobility type stuff and I'll probably let myself get up to like 15 to 25% of my intake from carbohydrates and I used to just kind of like see what was going

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on and then I kind of got into it with it Grandma's you know it's probably anywhere from like 2 to 3 hundred maybe and then when I'm in those phases of training it it's really intense in terms of like just arguing saying times it's just really tedious in the amount of time and energy required for it seems like when I was like when I get curious about that type of stuff or have done it in the past I've actually what I did originally is I got the the blood Ketone Monitor and I also got one of those cute on Xbox like it needs like a slow USB thing and you blow into it and then I think it's a lot better with it but what I did is I actually measured my blood Ketone and then I would use that and I tried to find kind of like if mine was matching what that thing would say so I kind of had and I I got it to where I kind of had an idea where the certain range is on that

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what kind of indicate whether I was in ketosis or not so like I very much is coming out of ketosis during Peak training like when I would specially when I would get up to 300 grams of carbohydrate I would come out of ketosis and I try to go back into ketosis throughout that for that phase come out like the time. Was more indicative about what I kind of ate during it to like if I did if if if I did or I should say what I like how I kind of structure those two to three hundred grams of carbohydrate like body like a big bowls of it in one meal I get back into ketosis a little quicker because then I wouldn't come back to the carbohydrates again for a while inside the day yeah yeah like I would like in here. Kind of interesting I guess is I do a lot of my the heaviest bulk of my training in the morning so I typically wake up and have some like coffee with like coconut milker

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whipping cream or something like that and then you'll go for my run so then I get back from a run you I might be 2 hours sometimes even 3 and you know at that point I just slept for 8 to 10 hours then you know by time I hadn't I hadn't really done like a small intermittent fast for the most part so like even when I had the higher amounts of carbohydrates I find myself going back into ketosis at the end of something like that sometimes but really it was to me it wasn't necessarily a question of whether I was in ketosis or not cuz that really wasn't important to me exactly yeah and what I wanted out of this approach was I wanted to be able to rely on my body to body to burn high levels of fat when I needed it too but I also wanted to be mad about the flexible enough where if I needed to hit the gas pedal I could do that as well and I think that's where people get a little confused or up a notch

► 00:38:35

is there something because there's not a whole lot of study that kind of help her look at that specifically like can you do that or can you not do that some people think it's kind of an all-or-nothing thing where you either get really fat adapted or you get really carpet pendants and then everything else is kind of like you know this gray area that you can't really get into but that's not my experience new my experience has been that like I can get kind of litmus test if I can go out for like A4 hour or even 5 Hour run with no fuel other than water and electrolytes then I'm fat adapted enough I don't need any more fat adapted than that because I can eat during the race and everyone else is going to be so like I don't really need to get more fat and out of that muscle performance standpoint so when I get to that point then it's like how many how many carbohydrates can I bring back to kind of give me that extra large or that extra fuel substrate have you ever tried mixing exogenous ketones with carbohydrates

► 00:39:30

incredible he's a maniac who else was it was it was playing with the the creation of some of that stuff I know there was I got to look back in my emails and stuff but I actually had are there was a guy who is doing a real clinical version of the exactness ketones and he had sent me one a while back to kind of do a little test for him and it was like justice little canister of exotic Ketone and you wanted me to kind of check my ketones when I woke up in the morning take that test to 15 minutes later and then test again after my run I think so did you test a few times when you text me but it tasted terrible but I felt great and you have to take it with the glucose

► 00:40:33

that's where I messed up but besides that like my Ketone level shot up I woke up that morning I think I was at 1.0 millimoles or something like that I took that exaggerant is Ketone and 15 minutes later I test I was at 3.70 months so I was like okay stuff works but is like it's people are looking at that kind of I think more like an electrolyte where it's like I take this on top of my energy source whereas that's actually an energy source of air leak only one too so like when I'm out there racing and I'm trying to kind of limit on trying to eat a certain amount so that I kind of keep that energy where I want it but I'm also try not to go overboard because I don't want digestive stress that's interesting so you have to maintain like a certain amount of food in your system but you don't want to have a large meal

► 00:41:35

yeah yeah cuz like basically the way I sent to Simply put it like digestion requires blood volume you know to move into your gotten like digest the food so when you're running especially when it's hot your body is also trying to use your your blood volume for muscle function and Cooling and things like that so by kind of introducing another use for that blood volume your body's problem is is running out of resources to kind of make all those things run smoothly which is why a lot of people find out like they have the worst luck with like throwing up and stomach issues when it gets really hot out because their bodies got to go double down on the cooling side of things with the blood volume and then it's like well something's got to give so just puked up everything you put in your stomach if your what's a size portion liquid it would be doing a hundred Miler for fuel I'll typically aim for

► 00:42:35

100 of 200 calories an hour when I'm doing it doing a hundred miles are in the kind of put that in perspective when I was high carb I was aiming for 3/4 and sometimes eating 500 calories an hour so when I kind of went into the approach were fat with my primary fuel source the the need for that carbohydrate essentially got cut in half if not more and for me that's a win as long as energy levels are the same because it means I have to eat last during the race that is one less logistic thing one left potential stomach issue so typical meal you know I usually stick to like like water based stuff so like I'll use a product called X endurance fuel 5 and it's essentially like really really high level sports drink with like a varying it's got its its carbohydrate based and I can tell you why I use carbohydrates instead of fats during a race in a minute too if you want but it's like five different types of kind of carbohydrate that really

► 00:43:35

the bearing points to get some that's kind of a little quick jolt and others that are more sustain like kinda like a sweet potato type of a release so I'll be just trickling that in so like if I'm doing like a hundred Miler and let's say I'm in a meeting for like 30 to 40 oz of water per hour to kind of stay on top of hydration I'll put you know to like a hundred or $200 with that stuff in that water so then I'm kind of killing two birds with one stone and getting my fuel in as well as hydrating at the same time so it's somewhat of a I don't know if it's an issue necessarily but it's an interesting thing for that at the very least is when you when I talk to folks who are like really into the hype that approach you know some of them are like zero carb or like really ketogenic all the time 24/7 they'll be taking in like fat sources during a race and I've never understood that just because when you look at your body

► 00:44:35

Energy Systems during a race like you have your glycogen stores and then you have body fat and I think a lot of people kind of get misled and I think oh I'm a really lean Runner so I can't rely on body fat when in reality even though Venus endurance athletes have enough body fat to get through an endurance race like even if you're 4% 5% body fat at at your lenus you that's a much bigger fuel source than your glycogen reserves so when I'm doing a race I've got enough fat to take care of the fat metabolism portion of that energy requirement for the race what I might run out of is those glycogen stores which are really small in comparison so I'm trying to just slowly trickle in the the the sugar or the carbohydrate during a race just enough to kind of keep my glycogen stores where I want to be so I can hit the gas if I need to but not at the level where it's going to cost stomach distress or compromise or Hadley compromise my body's willingness or ability to burn fat either

► 00:45:32

back and forth between fats and carbohydrates because you're so fat adapted yeah and I know it's actually probably happening like simultaneously it just at different rates like like someone who's really fat adapted they could be running kind of the same effort and the fat a person might be like burning 80% fat 20% carbohydrate in the carb dependent person might be like a 50/50 split so that card up in a person's gun exhaust or glycogen stores a lot quicker or they're going to have to fuel themselves at a much higher rate to make up for that deficit and when you look at like how difficult that is cuz you know some of these took somebody's Mountain races where you're running uphill it's like you you might be burning 800 + calories an hour and it's really hard to replace that on the Fly much more difficult race yeah yeah I mean it's a different set up it's you know it's one of those things where I'm pretty new to that actually like most of my ultra running for f Oaks Mall

► 00:46:35

flat stuff in part of that just cuz I live in a lot of flat areas and like I was kind of saying earlier if you really want to nail race you have to be specific so I learned kind of early probably around like 2013 or so that was in my best interest to make my Peak races flat ones if I really wanted to meet my full potential now I live in Phoenix so I got a lot more access to Mountain z i can get on the trails and then and do some significant climbing around my back door so I've certainly been able to practice that more and as I've gotten more competent at it I do recognize like oh it's not quite as hard as I thought it was originally I was going into it essentially under friend where is now it's like I go into am I go I'm on more adjusted to this so I mean it's still hard like going uphill it's hard no matter how you spin it but it's like it's one of those things where if you kind of figure out the pace it shouldn't be any more hard like it should be just as hard to run flat because you're going to run faster and it just did it just comes down to I think the right training and you'll pacing everything right

► 00:47:35

suggesting you saying you live in in Phoenix do you run the summer and Phoenix is Phoenix is fucking insanely hot so I can move there in January so yeah it'll be it'll be warm I have to kind of like it because right now I'm I'm training for the western states 100 and that's in it starts in Squaw Valley Men's in Auburn California and they go through like these for Canyons that get can get brutally hot like a hundred ten plus some years and you like that stuff is come such a long way since I started the sport I remember when I first started it was pretty primitive type stuff and now the the sport is the I think through hiking plays a big role in this too is that in like so popular or unpopular know if we're now companies are really tight dialing at stuff and where you can get like a pack that just sits nice and snug on you and you can put it like I use use a brand called Nathan they have like one.

► 00:48:35

on the back where they also want you to put water bottles on the front and then just your different setups and stuff so so yeah I bet that's like embossed in Phoenix right yeah I have yet to see the worst of it part of it was I would have done well I'm looking to move to Sacramento so the same looking into that. It was a combination of things for me like I'm trying to find a balance a few different things I I train a lot I also work for one of my primary sponsors Altra footwear and like for me to be able to kind of do the stuff for them that I was wanting to do it made more sense to be in Phoenix just product testing and stuff like that like if I wanted to invest if I wanted to

► 00:49:35

appropriately handled the territory Phoenix made a lot more sense in Sacramento Northern California is just grown so much for that company in the last couple years that like they needed to get someone in there who's going to do full time plus to really cover the area I also got engaged and in January as well so my fiance she she was best served being in the Phoenix area too so I was kind of a mutual Dallas original in Phoenix was kind of like a mutually good spot for both of us so we we both kind of looked at it as like what we want and it was we want Trails right in our backyard but we also want access to Flat stuff and we kind of want the heat because it would like there's racist or you need that to train for so when it gets hot earlier you can prepare for them most of the race for training

► 00:50:29

yeah her name is Nicole kalogeropoulos she like you know how it like I thought I've always thought I'm a hard worker and someone who like put a lot of time and effort into things I do and then I met her and you know I like to hop on the Jocko cloth let's put it that way so that she works for a company called Towers Watson and kind of does the manages the Midwest Division for like stuff so she'll be on a conference call with Amazon and then you'll go out and run 3 hours after that and then come back and get another conference call and just keeps going and going and going so yeah it's it it was it made sense for her job and my job is going to be in Phoenix and with as busy as she is and it's busy as I can get from time to time like it's nice to be able to go out your backyard and Beyond the trail 5 minutes late where is both of us didn't have that before we both had to drive to get to any kind of Trail specially her Dallas it was a lot I was like Flat Road running in her area so

► 00:51:31

you all and that's that's that's what is impressive with like so she's done watching States a few times the race I was telling you before at the canyons and I she's been sick place there twice just training on flat roads basically so crazy does she do anything to augment that likes doing lunges or anything like that she does some strengths work and stuff but really in a lot of it was just you know she would go out and run and run a lot and then I'm sure like she hasn't met her full potential at that at the specific event or certainly like Mountain type races just because she wasn't Trinidad and she's she's good though so like I mean she is a division 1 recruit for college and stuff back in the day so I can she's got some run count no doubt that you put in the work is consistency that huge thing like if you can't find the specific stuff in your really geeked about a specific race like I don't think not having the right training environment is reason to not do it if you're excited to do it so like for her she was more excited to get on the trails and she was to go you know do something on a Tracker app

► 00:52:35

rode like I was so for her it was like even if I'm not quite where I would like to be I'm going to do it anyway like Minimalist Shoes and run these ultra-marathons does Vibram FiveFingers stuff too so you know it was going to be interesting because to Altra footwear made the shoe this last year called the The Vanishing it's essentially minimal shoe I'm just like a little bit of fabric on the top super hard flat based on what I like when I'm on a road or track so I was wearing that the vanish vanish yet

► 00:53:28

I have the lightest shoe out of anyone here three guys show up running put their foot he's like A2 22 or 23 marathoner and he's Barefoot and he said the marathon beer float the looks like relisted there's a lip on the outside is that the vanishers at the Savannah Desert carbon fiber played in that makes a little more firm I'm looking for an issue when I'm looking for kind of like that natural feel is something I've got a firm midsole or firm durometer because like I don't want to switch down into the shoe I want to pop right off the ground and I think like really like that is just I mean price parents this with the with the Vibrams where like if you spend the

► 00:54:35

find your foot feet stronger and stronger and stronger and it's only a matter of time before they get strong and he's got to keep kind of working at it just like you know a weightlifter you know when they start out weightlifting they're nowhere near where they are ten years later so like for me back in 2012 I think I kind of like I've ever read that I was like this is intriguing you know and it made a lot of sense to it's like you know if we were meant to have a wedge on our feel like we would have had a wedge on her that's a ridiculous thing that Nike came up with ya adopted that they run heal first like that in the problem is that like a shoe is essentially a cast for your foot even that bad ass I had up there that's a little cast compared to what you normally going to see but it's still a cast that's why I like those five fingers there's nothing

► 00:55:33

flag look like underneath and it's a glove for your for your feet yeah yeah I just don't know that I think that you can really work those foot muscles to a point where you can exhaust them the way you wouldn't of shoe it just takes a lot of time cuz like if I broke my arm with a cast on it and then like 6-8 weeks later. The cast taken off I went back in the weight room and did a normal routine I would be wrecked the next day when you take your foot out of that shoe cast you have it in or take it out of the position it's gotten used to put in a different position it's like taking a cast off and trying to do that full mode of mode of training or emotion so like you know when I first kind of got an ultra running Ice I work my way down to a minimal shoe I spent probably 6 months before I was running exclusively and something that was really minimalist in when I said minimalist I mean zero drop and no cushion or little to no cushion cuz I think some people confuse that too like that the shoot you stop

► 00:56:35

could you let go looks like it's a little bit of padding there so that's like zero drop of cushioning but there are shoes that alternates a does and what that does it take you from like the way I described as visit someone in like a someone in a traditional running shoe reel Bill top cushion lot of support is on one and a spectrum barefoot running like those dudes that I ran into at the track there on the other nurse Spectrum there's all these steps in between to get to that so like Barefoot oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah hahaha using something called a pull-up is Vevo vivobarefoot what I like about this is that I don't have to look where I step there's no cushion

► 00:57:35

at all the trail one that I'd lose that one the far left the far left yeah that run there's no cushion to it but it's got some tread and the bottom is hard enough so that I can run on Hard Rock's and I don't think about it it's hard to tell in that image how little there is underneath it but there's there's nothing going on and in terms of like there's no squish to it off to share some good size knob so you have some good some good tread you know so you can you know you can get good traction on in dirt and mud and stuff like that but that way nothing that's your muscles are flexing Every Witch Way that it's made a big difference with me man but honestly the five fingers are probably the best for that they just don't have as much attraction and I have to look where I'm stepping you know like I have to be careful like sharp rocks you have to look down don't step on that I don't like looking

► 00:58:34

what those I can just run to flow through it yeah I get a faster Pace with those that's where I draw the line 2 is like when I'm on the road and on the track I don't mind having that like no cushion type of thing but then when I go on like the trails in Phoenix it's very Rocky and hard and then all use like a shoe called the king Mt that's kind of like the one you had their it's a little less Nimble I would say it in that one just got that that like really aggressive log set the foot shaped pill box so I don't feel like my fever game pinch together yeah I just something where is that just something that keeps him getting caught yeah but there are guys who just do it at Barefoot to sit and think they're very few but it's it's it's doable if you ever see that show Dual Survivor from those wacky survivor shows and I don't know if I've seen that one this one guy I think is named Corey who has the most disgusting feet I've ever seen in my life almost is disgusting

► 00:59:35

one guy was cutting the the bottom of the sea off and feeding into dogs know that guy with a knife. Videos awful to watch but this guy walked Barefoot everywhere in his ideas from your feet up and you might not have shoes you know they get real crazy with this whole survivalist has I'm not joking like a good solid half inch of callus under his entire foot it's amazing what the human body will do when you put it in a position to need to for the average person that's an impossible feat but you've built theirs that guy's foot like that what in the fox elephant skin but the guys like you have adapted your body to this position where you know you can do that and it's just a matter of putting in the training runs and making sure your fueling up correctly and you know it

► 01:00:34

my race is not a question whether or not you could do it's how fast he could do it yeah you know it's it's interesting the cool thing in this might go back with your ass like why Ultra marathons and I think it is part of it to you is like in a hundred miles it's almost like it's not a matter of when is something going to go wrong it's the way I should take if something is going to go wrong it's a matter of when and how do you respond to it run so it's a difficult thing that goes wrong you know I think a lot of people will have like cramping or the bill Bonk I mean this is one of the reasons why I love the high-fat approach is because like bonking from the light energy side of things is essentially non-existent is essentially what happens if its more common in the mirror because people are running a lot faster in those but what century was happening and you're depleting your glycogen stores to the point where your body doesn't really have access to that fuel substrate anymore and if you are trying if you're not good at metabolizing fatter you cannot burn fat ass

► 01:01:35

I rate I'm at a decent clip It's a Grind you to a halt you see people staggering and falling over losing her mind hallucinating and stuff like that in those situations so like you know bonking is something that is is an issue with ultra-marathons you're out there for so long if you get behind on fueling you know you could bond and stuff like that so you know part of the reason and I talked about before with like this a lot of logistics with an ultra marathon in his old is variables are just just just so problem when you're out there that long that if you can eliminate some of those are reduce the potential them flaring up that's usually a win cuz in his last chance of something popping up that you wouldn't expect her and uncertain thing happening during the race and but you may still happen you know I've done that I would say the most efficient hundred Miler I've done is when I I ran 11 hours and 40 minutes and 55 seconds at a race in 2015 called a hundred miles and 11 hours

► 01:02:29

wave 11 hours are in 100 Mi so I think the thing that it might take me longer to get to the airport if the traffic on the 405 is backed us 100 mile record you average 7-10 minutes per mile for almost 12 hours to that is insane that is fucking insane Bert Kreischer he brags when he run 7 miles the LA Marathon in 6 and 1/2 don't know well I'll say I'll say I'll say this your bird if you're listening contact me I'll get you to 4 and 1/2 and 6 Mile

► 01:03:35

100 mile record by running been stalking minutes per mile it's crazy the thing of the interesting thing I thought about that event was when I was talking about efficiency is I stopped twice during that race and it was for maybe a total of like $60 at most 90 seconds total and it was just it was just a p two times so like there was a guy who did that was two years before I did that race and he was trying to break 13 hours and he was like right on the edge I don't he just whipped it out and peed all over the track I'm pretty well as penis on pants I don't know what I would do and it's

► 01:04:29

situation like that unfortunately, is that him that the same guy are very sensitive subject for Community though cuz if you do it long enough to spend it probably happened to you about ask to see if you're going to run a hundred miles when's your last meal before you get there so I'll eat a big dinner the night before probably around like 4 or 5 and what would that be so I'll do like a huge steak I try to keep Eckstein ounces 20 oz at least probably pretty good number 40 lb give or take

► 01:05:32

crazy well this is where it gets fascinating with the lights. Thing I was telling you about is like there's days during the year we're like I'm in training where I'm a tablet in 2 to 3 times my resting metabolic rate so I've got to feed myself appropriately for that in that means a lot of steak but definitely a lot of like like saturated fat based oils at coconut oil like that sort of thing but yeah I don't I don't shy away from meat I usually have meat or eggs for every meal for the most part it's a lot of talk lately about the carnivore diet lot of people that are delving into that including Jordan Peterson daughter which is a really interesting case because she had severe autoimmune disorder like she has some severe issues with on a bike horrible arthritis where she's had I know she

► 01:06:35

had hip replacements and I believe she's having an ankle replace soon too and if she eat anything other than meat it flares up horrible it's really crazy yeah I've never tried to talk to her maybe you can get her in here but I've never heard anything like that I thought I heard somewhere they was after the last time you had Jordan on where he was telling you about how he just basically just need some greens where yeah I think he's cut out all vegetables right now for at least a try like I thought I saw something about that but yeah it's it's one of those things sounds like what I was saying before like why I don't necessarily want people to say like will Zach is saying everyone should do exactly what he's doing and then you know that that's important I mean to the point where like you have people like that like when I had nothing but issues I were having work incredibly minor compared to Jordan Peterson's daughter like like I mean cheese

► 01:07:35

in a spot where you know she had to make changes if she wanted to even just probably do daily activities and you know that's that that's I think the hard part for people that kind of understand is like there are people are different stages at some people like no one's breaking themselves overnight so it's like this is something that's chipping away at people and sometimes of chips away at them quicker and not some people and take longer for others so if you have an issue like that it's like you almost have to go back to square one and say what are give me a couple things that I know aren't going to upset me and let's start from there and see if we can start adding things back eventually maybe or you know we are you had on the podcast we have to start a recording some podcasts together and we are having the scale come on he's been a carnival for 8 years and she was kind of in that situation where she had a whole bunch of good things going on even with the keto protocol and she eventually just cuddling up with meeting has been doing great ever sense and that's a vegan

► 01:08:35

I just wish people could separate their ideology from the reality of certain people's bodies and unfortunately in this is very important you got a separate also all your the all the horrors that we associate with factory farming and all the other things that we associate with meat and meat consumption those things are real and terrible and he absolutely should be avoided an absolutely factory farming should be illegal the great horrors of modern society I really really do but take that away then you know some people don't think animals should die at all but they don't live forever and other animals eat them it's just like this is just a part of life then you're into health and whether or not consuming me is actually healthy and there's no evidence that it's not there's none yeah you know the thing that like I want a vegan to sit me down and explain to me is that like when I look at 5 available

► 01:09:35

of micronutrients it's like you can't find much better than liver like it's like the stuff is super available like yeah so like it it in sole it's like it I need that explode like I don't know I'm sure there's a ranges of what people can do in terms of absorbing something like I have non-heme iron versus Iron but like for me it's it it's like I'm going to affect my iron levels below the first thing I'm going to I'm doubling down on liver building down a liver and it's like purely objective standpoint consumption nutrients organ meats are some of the best yeah for sure you're aware Chris Kresser is a macrobiotic vegan and you know I mean he was like fully hardcore in this is having all sorts of huge issues his body just didn't react to it and he fixed all that by eating organ meat and that's like his primary food source yeah what's the gal's name

► 01:10:35

there's a a lady who she can what she had

► 01:10:39

I'm I'm not going to think of it but if I do I'll remember but she did spring the same thing bioavailability of nutrients but it's certainly better than standard Western diet she's candy right like it's candy and drinks beer and eat some nachos and she said that she's got like candy jar sitting around the house yeah and she's like before I go for a run I'll go anywhere from just like you know nibbling on it till small stomach ache filled I guess in that regard was real freak man in this people that know her that just there stunned by her because what's interesting about her is she's not a fast runner in per se like

► 01:11:41

the way she would run a marathon she'd run a marathon in like 3 hours so did she did she talk about how she got into running when she was on here for like you she ran in high school I think a little bit but she was teaching as well yeah yeah she was teaching she was running and she was able to get enough sponsors, which is what she does now but with with her I think this is one of the reasons why I'm fascinated by you folks with her it's her mind her mind is just unbelievably powerful when she was experiencing cornea edema caused by her she couldn't fucking see man she was literally blind Sheik barely could see her feet and she still want cracked her head open blood pouring down her head and she's still one is that it run Rabbit Run think that was what it was an image of her crossing the Finish Line literally can't see shit she's got her hands in front of her she's covered in blood

► 01:12:40

she's a fucking Savage she's been on a track and they're all the same sport when you look at like people who can kind of do really well at all of them or in Courtney's case really well at all of them you can't find a better female on the female side of thing someone can do it better than that like she doesn't she goes on the track kills it she goes in 240 Mi to the mountains kills it it's it's crazy he doesn't even run I don't think are barely and he's not letting me just so fast me buy this one woman that was so far ahead of everybody decide what the fuck is she doing that

► 01:13:38

in a 238 mile race 22 miles ahead of them to wear like wear like men and women in an ultra marathoning and all that kind of like we're on the trail races were women can win yeah and it's the interesting thing to me about it is women can and do win some races but when they're like like Courtney's very much the most I would say talented person to do one of the $200 yet like there hasn't been a lot of what like the the top of the sport hasn't really moved into that I'm important certainly top of the sport but she thinks she's the best I think she's the best woman all around it certainly in the United States is the best of running those 200 my boss and variables to the day I think like so let me know if there's some like there's a guy named Killian and he j o r n

► 01:14:40

and he won the he's he's he's essentially the best Mountain Runner by far like there's maybe one of the guy can maybe compete with him at something under a hundred miles but if it's like he's a he's a he would probably like beat Everyone by who knows how much of a 200 lines in like you'll be the gap on both sides and he just so yeah that's that's crazy

► 01:15:21

look at them looks like a freak to the GoPro strap this hasn't that's got a story about the GoPro put that down as interesting cuz I mean his parents were like Mountaineers I think and I basically grew up in the spot right now and it's like he is running folks what is this video

► 01:15:54

okay and it spell his name Ki is a 2 else 101 l i a n j o r n e t and he's running in my Chevrolet Chevrolet Chevrolet France and he's running on what looks like the fin of a shark if a shark was the size of a mountain

► 01:16:18

schedule fucking animal mad that it's so scary that my hands are sweating just get it on the mountains for sure he doesn't do anything is not mountain is like he did western states in won it in 2011 and he was complaining about it being too flat in Moss of elevation what are 20,000 feet down 17000 feet up is there in that you can do you can do like 50 or a hundred kids that have the same profiles as you can get like if you're doing like what he's doing it probably does feel kind of flat for him like he likes that Steve technical stuff so but yeah so as far as the mountains go he's the keys the guy to beat for sure and he'll do races on a regular basis when he is running cuz he's actually professional Year too so like he's only running basically have to guarantee scheme the other half

► 01:17:19

Christ yeah yeah so he's accused of undue to follow for sure but yeah it's when you look at like some of the races that are kind of the big race is like Western States 100 is the most competitive firm Island United States in Alta Trail Mont Blanc Witch Doctor by shaminy where you saw that video is probably at least last year with the most competitive in the world those are the reasons I like to look at that kind of see like where the divergences from the males and females and if you look like course records and winning times like you know the men are finishing like two plus hours ahead of the women are on a pretty regular basis on that type of stopping at Altra Trail Mount Blanca know sometimes it's for 5 hours and then it is so then you can kind of late is more in line with what you see with other endurance distances like marathons and stuff like that the crazy thing about it though is that doesn't mean that's going to happen every time like there's certainly yours where women do really well and finish like in the top 10

► 01:18:19

the in like Budweiser States or UTMB one year 2006 this gal Nikki Kimball she finished third overall at Western States was which is the highest finish showering finishing place for a woman other than the other lady named Ann trason who you shouldn't live race anymore but she was cheating like the legend of the sport from the women or she's she's one Western States like 14 times and had like 20 world records at one point and stuff like that and but Nikki Nikki Kimball she finished third and part of it was cuz I was like the hottest year in the canyons on record and if women do one thing at pretty content when do better at these hundred miles and they're not nearly as stupid like that will go out and like it is competitive it takes one or two guys too kind of run a little too fast and he's going to bring 5 6 7 guys with him and then it's actually fascinating racing concept I think because you're like

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okay one of these guys going to the race of his life and hold on for dear life and run a spectacular time everyone else is going to blow that quickly when's it going to happen so you can thin out that men's field really easy when that happens I think the women are a little smarter than that they can I wasn't there a guy that was like way out of head in the case when he was capable of doing anything you see that all the time and it's really easy to do at a hundred plus miles cuz really at the end of the day like if you feel comfortable to start you're probably going too fast how do you pace yourself and are you using your watch or you are you counting steps like what are you doing yeah I like to get to a point where I can use perceived effort which is basically like listening to my body I can know like okay this is a little too hard I need to dial it back I'll use heart rate a lot in train and kind of get myself to the fitness I'm looking for

► 01:20:16

40 or in the 1:40 at the thing about heart rate that I would wear I kind of did it from heart rate is when you start getting into these really long events that go past like 2 or 3 hours heart rate starts losing its value in terms of being able to trust it as like a metric asking to tell you to do the right thing like there's so many things I can kind of just drop that from like dehydration to just cardiac tread all kinds of all kinds of things so I think it's like if an athlete's really has things dialed-in they can use heart rate in training and they can look at heart rate if they want but they also need to connect that with perceived effort so that if something goes wrong with that or it starts you know issue start coming up with the heart rate side of things they can still kind of like reflect back in on themselves like okay this is a state sustainable pace for me or this is not a sustainable pays for me if you guys that is fully functional has no issues at all keeping that diet up yeah yeah and I think he took I mean he puts a lot of work into that

► 01:21:16

super dedicated to make make sure you getting the proper amount of nutrients make a tree getting microalgae and all these different forms of B12 and yeah yeah yeah I like we should I looked you in St the first guy points his like doing it right at him so Courtney below that whole field away like that I think some of it is just that's a really new event like I think they're in there like 3rd or 4th year for $200 there's three of them in the United States and it'll probably be 4 or 5 in the next couple years so it really hasn't it's in its infancy I mean think of it like like with UFC like back like in the 90s like and then where does that today so it goes to hundreds are kind of like UFC wasn't a 90s and if people start gravitating toward it then you start you'll see some of these course records just get blown out any we saw that with the Hundred Mile distance and you seen that

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you know a lot of all the trail course records because like a lot of fast guys and gals I moved in the sport in the last five 10 years so we've just been it's been like Justin Bieber talent pool more likely to get a complete genetic freak more lightning and the other thing to is like it a lot like a lot of times that you have is you get competitive enough in a sport then people start playing with Fire and Rain and they're doing it because they know they have to get to their optimal fast and it's the people that make it through that they are there as fit as they can get so then you can see if you can see some really good times to Peak for a race definitely maybe three races a year and those are the ones that I'm really going to try to nail those are the ones we're like I'm going to like try to do everything I can to be ready to hurt during that race and then I'll usually do maybe

► 01:23:19

free range like I lose about six to eight Ultra marathons in a year and then the other ones are kinda like those training races I talked about before or every once awhile to get invited to a race that's like overseas and it's like the free trip to go to China will speaking hurting during the race I know that a lot of ultra Runners are utilizing see and even using edible marijuana while they run and that they found that this is a great performance enhancing workouts though like more like a sleep aid that anything but like or an inflammation of them type things and it was all about marijuana and ultra running and that it's it's somehow or another become a big part of it that for a lot of these guys yeah I think

► 01:24:19

at you know it's interesting because like your marijuana use I'm not sure about CBD but marijuana use is like is illegal in competition yeah it's it's it's it's the same protocol so I think I think it's like it has to be below a certain level for like that's all those things I mean it's still pretty primitive in ultra running like there's testing at some of the big races and that's even relatively new like the last year or so so it was from Statesville test will test the top 10 on each side and then a few random people and then I think UTMB which is the other big hunter my talking with a task after when I broke a $12 world record in 2013 I got tested after that have there been any big Superstars that pissed off. There's been people who have they weren't like

► 01:25:17

individuals that were like kind of like a poster child of a sport necessarily though nothing like that so I'm in it it's it's really interesting because like I mean there's certainly people skirt in the rules in ultra-marathon running I've no doubt about it but probably like what is it a blood transfusion things like Tour de France all cuz I mean that's an expensive hard thing to kind of put together you need a doctor essentially if I'm understanding it all right so they're probably just doing a little like minor things like maybe like peptides or something like that would be my guess but I also do think it's not nearly licks people I think nowadays it would like with Icarus and all that stuff like now people are on the opposite side of what they were 4 years ago were they there suspect everyone's doing it versus I know they're not doing it they have gotten caught yet which is where we were prior few years ago I think I think the culture play that you draw on that I mean

► 01:26:16

he was pretty good about talking about like how like you know like you come into the sport you go over to Europe to race and like they ask you to get on a protocol if you say no they sent her back like it's like you know that's a cultural thing a man to like like it's like you you have to do it to be in the sport almost in with all trying it's kind of the opposite I think I think the culture is stay away from that stuff like like we don't we don't want that since it's a mind-thing almost more than anything which is why people like Courtney who aren't me to the fastest marathon runners but have this just Bulletproof Mind that allows them to compete in in that you really there's no supplement for your mind for the power Yea Yea and there's things that can go wrong just from the duration you're out there to speed so much of it seems to be your ability to deal with discomfort and pain and just press on yeah it you know the way I described ultra-marathon running is it still running sport same runner's high the app

► 01:27:18

it's use marijuana to improve their training what was that in like walking contradiction but there are hints that the drug and long distance running could go hand-in-hand I'll tell you what man I've only done it a few times where I got super baked and went running it feels awesome but I would imagine fruit for some people it's it's a euphoric 50% of the runners I mean you're a bad cannabis user to say almost none of them are open about it says Avery, yeah he's interesting because he's be the spokesperson for marijuana use like I mean I don't you don't have to look far into like marijuana and how it got to be where is in terms of its legality of the legality to recognize there is some time. I mean you don't have to be like historian to find out

► 01:28:18

like like why that criminalize well at where is alcohol is it in that sort of thing like a pretty big proponent about kind of deep stigmatizing it and it but you know he understands at least he understands that it's illegal in competition and I think he's been tested at least twice after races 6 that and no I think it is at a certain level I think is all they may have just removed it I'm trying to buy saw that right but it used to be like you can have caffeine but at a certain level it would be legal but it was like the equivalent to 16 cup of coffee or something like that so you have to put down like four of those Nitros or six of those Nitro straight before you raise if you wanted any any chance of going over then you probably going to Cardiac Arrest by the time you got to be

► 01:29:10

that there's some high school kid was playing football and he like slammed a Red Bull or some one of those like high caffeine energy drinks and then like was like on the kick return team or something returned the kick for Touchdown was just jacked out of his mind I had a heart attack so I took one of those something that's yeah well then they put a bunch of other statements in there that people don't know about so yeah it's kind of those pre-workout supplements for car while green member those ribs I took. I stopped raining and my heart is beating so fast I could die here like this

► 01:30:17

is not good and I was right before they pulled it off the Martian cut it in just in time I guess was it called date that killed a few folks I think killed a few folks in the military so you know you not talking about like some fucking sickly old man like yeah yeah I may lose caffeine in races I think it's pretty clear that caffeine is a performance-enhancing it's happens to be one that's that's legal and perform for sure coffee or taking pills a little of Madonna variety of different things I've done I did erase once where I was trying to figure out like my fuel rate and like, what was ideal and this was awhile ago but I did a hundred K race and I did nothing but Mountain Dew and it was like I think I took in

► 01:31:17

out to about a hundred and fifty-eight calories an hour of just Mountain Dew with Similac I had some electrolytes to ask if you just sitting around doing nothing terrible for you and really kicking ass like that the amount of fuel you're burning damn Mountain Dew might be a great movie if you don't go overboard I mean sodas at every age station at from a Chevy race yeah so it's definitely something people buy that is useful but like since then I've been not that practice before the X endurance fuel 5 they make one that's really caffeine in it too so now I will use you if I want to Kathy and I'll just use that instead of the non-caffeinated one but then I was like yeah I'll still sometimes do little bit of soda special at the end of the race I'm just going to change things up a little bit cuz that's the other thing too it's like if you do the same thing you know after a while so I could just do something different would Mayweather drink soda after he works out an idiot and I was like maybe the best boxer of all times

► 01:32:15

something good on top of having terrible diet and I think part of his like terrible died as a joke I killed him and shit and show you until I'm taking over his ass eating cheeseburgers but not really he really does help me the shapes made it home gourmet meal I mean he has a personal chef the fueling up with like really heavy sugary drinks after a very hard workout it's not a bad idea to replenish your glycogen your muscles yeah I think that depends I think like I think the science is pretty clear if you're on a high-carbohydrate or at least a higher carbohydrate diet that you know carbohydrate and protein within like 30 45 minutes of a post workout as going to be in your best interest chocolate milk for that right yeah that's gotten that's gotten kind of like labeled as that perfect ratio where it's not clear or Lisa

► 01:33:17

it's getting clearer is like where the variance there is for someone like myself we found a high-fat approach we we have a little bit of a glimpse into it from some studies and interesting thing is what they did this one study for the faster study and it looked at like it was 10 guys when a high-fat diet and 10 guys from the high carbohydrate diet and the guys on the they try to pair them up as twins like similar like performance achievements similar like bodymetrix and then kind of compare the two in that the high-fat cool or actually when they finish that we did one of those workouts is a 3-hour treadmill session and then they were they taken like blood tests and stuff and they had like the oxygen mask and things like throughout the course of it and they tested things before or after they saw was like the high fat folks actually had this kind of big like surge of glucose in the bloodstream post workout so the thought is like you my

► 01:34:18

not want to double down on that if you're in a fat adapted State because like I mean some of the levels this is good goes back to it would been like this is what something I like to ask a doctor a t about is that like you get these big kind of post workout like blood glucose spikes on sometimes to the level of like what would look like a type 2 diabetic but it's not it's not it's it's in a different contacts and what you would see in someone who's just the following a normal diet where that would be kind of a red flag and selective to hit the body with another source of glucose essentially might not be faxing you the same way so yeah it's it's it's interesting stuff so like it's actually like what I've done sometimes to is after a big hard workout if I'm not hungry I don't know with you right away I wait for my stomach to come around in like my body to say you're hungry just to let all that stuff, I'll go through and then then I'll have depending on depending on what I'm doing next like if I'm if I'm taking it easy day or

► 01:35:18

probably two days I'll go like really low carb but if I'm going back out that afternoon for another workout or the next morning for like a speed session or something. That's what maybe I would try to drop in a little bit of carbohydrate to kinda speed up the glycogen side of things so I'm ready for that next one thanks for having me on.

► 01:35:43

Alright folks we did it thank you tune into the podcast Good Times motherfuckers thank you Donna could Onnit use the code word Rogan and you will save 10% off any and all supplements thank you also to policygenius the easiest way to compare life insurance online easiest way to compare top Insurance insures find the best value for you

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► 01:36:50

we did it was fun podcast interesting dude, crazy they're all crazy you have to be thank you appreciate guys much love to you all bye bye