#1173 - Geoffrey Miller

September 25, 2018

Geoffrey Miller is an evolutionary psychologist, serving as an associate professor of psychology at the University of New Mexico and known for his expertise in sexual selection in human evolution.

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beautiful right folks that's what I'm saying the beautiful my guest today..... Is Jeffrey Miller Jeffrey Miller is an evolutionary psychology professor and really interesting guy I heard him on Sam Harris podcast and I became enthralled and I must have had a great time talking to him I hope you enjoy it please give it up for Jeffrey Miller The Joe Rogan Experience

Joe Rogan podcast

all day

Jeffrey hey hey Joe I appreciate it

crazy that's where that sad for some people happy for others sad that he's only going away for I wonder if that's a death sentence for mad at his age essential it is right he's like 81 Justice took into account like your health status and awarding with that guy who was speaker hastert who is Speaker of the House who is convicted for molesting a large number of boys when he was a wrestling coach oh yeah yeah 15 months 15 months imagine

play my music that's that's pure Insanity in a wheelchair weigh if he was a twenty-five-year-old able-bodied man who done the exact same thing you would have gone to jail for 15 months for admitting to molesta a large number of kids

Coroner's care when he was when he was wrestling Coach Wright

yeah yeah I'll give the guy the movie was made of no was not a child molester he was just a psychopath who hired the wrestlers to come live with them and wrestle with them yeah yeah yeah I know one of them

the weather in the main guy the movie date the the the the two brothers David Mark Schultz fantastic wrestlers who were completely misrepresented in the movie they made out to be like involved this weird gay relationship with him and doing cocaine. They got it all sorts of shit to that movie that very weird how they do that screenwriters got to dramatize it I guess this wasn't for child abuse that it says this is the judge said it would have been higher he would have gotten more if the statute of limitation for accident 1960s and 70s ran out to the judge noted the punishment for such a conviction would have been far worse I think he actually got evicted for Bank transactions keeping stuff secret had to pay fines statute of limitations

it's a war talking about Bill Cosby that psychology professors and experts were

obviously stating that he had some sort of problem

I mean it's weird cuz the media will have a certain narrative they want to promote and also to find the psychologist will say the thing that fits that so I think most clinical psychologist would say I've never talked to the guy I'm not going to try to diagnose him from a distance right eye I have no idea what his condition is or what his issue is but then there's a handful who are willing to stick their necks out and say something and and it's embarrassing to be a psych Professor for that reason because you're you're always kind of being represented publicly by the people who are going to being released professional about this kind of dog that is a real problem today isn't it like an in terms of identity politics and this this inclination to draw conclusions and to lean towards one side of the other instead of just looking at the actual situation objectively and if you're not talking to him I mean I'm assuming Bill Cosby's a terrible piece of shit as a human being that's what I'm assuming by looking at

but I never talk to the man I don't know what kind of crazy shit he's got going on in his head but if all these women are telling the truth and seem super unlikely that they're all lying we wasn't like that over 50 with the same story he's got a deep dark streak that's for sure thing is so a lot of people who are successful have a little bit of that dark streak to have a little bit of that sociopathy like they can kind of step back from normal human relations and they can either turn it into it you know abuse and exploitation lie cause we did or they can climb civilize themselves right and they can harness that took to do something that's good and and where they're kind of using your ability to take a different viewpoint on things too

analyze human behavior or invent things or or you know propose new policies or whatever and

so I think that kind of dark streak you know if you have it you have to recognize it and and kind of payment and work with it and people who do I think in all the great things for side in the people don't end up in jail

well this one of the reason why I wanted to bring this up to you as an evolutionary psych Professor looking at the human mind and looking at Behavior patterns and what was clearly some sort of I hesitate to call Crime an addiction but it seems like it addictive pattern that he has that there's a compulsion to doing this to people that's not as simple as he wants women have sex with them they don't want to have sex with them so he drugs them I don't think it's that simple I think there's some getting away with it thing there's got to be some he's better than everyone saying because he's you know he's royalty in the to in terms of like Hollywood in terms of Show Business and turn the stand up comedy he's always been treated as royalty I mean he's been allowed to essentially criticize anyone who wants is it's rarely is there a rebuttal to the the things that he says and you know he's been criticizing the black community for its use of bad

words in for its use of sexually explicit language and Linda piction zand me while the entire time was raping people fucking amazing

I think one thing that might happen is if you've got this Public Image is being like squeaky clean family values and you've got the burden of kind of being a moral Exemplar like that you know just like televangelists anybody has a big religious following like the pressure to be good all the time I think and kind of tip people into the right the thrill of transgression imagine could be quite kind of addictive and that's a real danger and I think that's that kind of hypocrisy is why

we should be really careful about kind of idolizing anybody to that degree kind of morally and putting that burden on them yeah I mean I can only imagine like being an evangelist and being someone who will who preached about the word of God but meanwhile having this weird hooker thing like do you remember what was his name Ted he ran a giant Church in I believe it was Colorado and the entire time I just have a bit about him the entire time we smoking meth and having sex with gay prostitutes and all the wires going on about it's always the guys to go on about how awful gay people are there secretly gay it's so common there's a little research on that I mean it's not definitive but it looks like a lot of Ted Haggerty a lot of guys who are pretty like you put them in a

search situation and see what actually Rouses them like if you show them straight or gay porn right and you have a pussy as McGrath and you sense why would one penis oh boy I need one of those anyway let's just have it in the background of every podcast when you come do the podcast got to put these electrodes on your penis and then we were just going to talk about Japanese vomit porn and tentacles Austin Ally so yeah it's the people who are often you know most hostile to something have some some little issue inside that is creating some conflict did they conflicted thoughts of the human being who has this ideal of who they like to project and what they like people think they are I mean while how's this thing below the surface that is literally every

I despise and everything they rally against and that is their true nature yeah I've known several guys who are closeted gay men and it's it's a awful existence that they just live in a Perpetual state of just angsten unease and Scottish think for the most part especially if you live in an urban environment most people don't give a shit anymore is it almost a self-imposed prison in the people that do give a shit there the real problem the other day at the people who are not gay who really care if someone's gay a little less they're trying to do a Cosby on you like why do you care

look if somebody wants to be in the closet about their sexuality like they want to be discreet and professional reasons or because investors would Panic or whatever like that's totally cool but I think it's so hard to be authentic to yourself I guess it's okay to go to acknowledge I have this sexuality are these predilections and and it's up to me to kind of harness them and deal with them and I manage them and if you want to do that privately that's that's cool we should have that freedom yes but if you don't work out those little demons and if you can't acknowledge what's authentic I think that's where you got these problems like the Cosby case but I believe is the difference between discretion not wanting to discuss your sexuality and out now apocracy completely different things it's one thing like you said look safe guys that CEOs of major corporation happens to be gay and just not interested in all the political nonsense and all the social nonsense that goes along with discussing that yeah he's like I'm just going to keep

that makes sense like why should he have to but if he lies to his friends you know like we are so strange as a race I have talked to many times about how bizarre it is that we've become really comfortable with seeing people have sex like on phones and iPads and laptops I mean it is such a massive part of Internet consumption but yet so dirty and so forbidden if someone comes in the room you watching slam the laptop shut and discussed total embarrassment it's we really weird yeah well it's weird on so many levels like I don't do research on whatever the psychology of porn but I know people who do and the fact that you can study yet

everyone watches it but you can't even show clips at a scientific Conference of what people are watching is kind of bizarre thing that's bizarre as if you'd ask people

7 years ago you know in the 50s or whatever what do you think will happen if there is unlimited free online pornography is it is every possible genre of humans of all Sexes interacting with each other in including cartoon dragons and whatever they would go civilization will have fallen like it would be chaos it at that sounds post-apocalyptic and yet we're living in that era

people still driving their kids to school and it seems like morally judgemental about politics and

our ability to compartmentalize is kind of all inspiring actually but it's also to adjust to the times that kind of all inspiring to got me think about the different like a mop and talked about when I was in high school is was in high school in 1981 my freshman year of high school and that was literally around the time to VH1 tape was introduced into modern America dies in getting a D2 like maybe I was a sophomore which is right when you're about the horniest and that's that's why I'm poor and made it into people's houses and you had to go through those beads in the video store to get to the point section and everybody was like every other guy had blinders on and nobody looked at anybody else it was just terrifying and rental rental late fees like should I bring it back today

Steve attacks another 3 bucks if you just stole it cost 30

70s 70s really okay well maybe it was late seventies or something like that my house we got in around 1980s 82 ish but it did change the world and a change in the real sneaky way that we're nobody saw it coming but the difference between the access to Saks to what the looking at Saks from 1960 to 1980 20 years which is you know terms of historically is a very short. Of time at any other time other than today today it's a massive change loaf of you had anticipate what it would be like in 2038 he like oh God you know all of you on musk's inventions will come to fruition will be living in tunnels underground and the surface of the Earth to be a hundred 90 degrees and will be no more water and

yeah people always overestimate how much was going to change in the next 20 years compared to last 20 yeah but you know a bunch of what's a psychology researchers who study like marriages in long-term relationships ask him in 1980 what's going to happen when you have unlimited VHS porn some of them might have said that'll save American how many do you think would go with that all the hippies I think a lot of folks would have said well that's the way you can get your sexual variety needs Matt and it kind of virtual fake way and so that'll reduce the pressure for like infidelity I know the folks would have said oh my God it'll remind people what they're missing and so it'll it'll nuke marriages divorce rate will go to 80% option which is the sort of The Cosby ask thing is that the addiction that there's there's maybe I can ask you about this like what is it about things whether it is gambling or you know whatever

video games there are things that people get obsessed with and those things become almost a part of who they are that it takes over their mind so much like a chart of the human brain with some folks there's a giant chunk of this just porn it's like 40% of the brain's porn what happens what is what is it about the mind that makes one obsessed with her it's with gambling or whatever it was ever the vice whatever the the thing that makes you addicted

well I mean one that one issue is people differ in their their conscientiousness write their degree of self-control and their ability to kind of resist Temptations and keep their their eyes on the target like Curry family kids in Do the Right Stuff other people like I just can't control myself and I need to made of Life whatever it is video games porn doing my homework whatever

but I think we also have to cut people some slack cuz remember

if your teenager and you're really into video games Call of Duty whatever it is there are literally thousands of people designing that game to be as addictive as possible and beta testing a timer finding it and and you know doing a level design so it gives you just the right reinforcers at the right pace and of course we're not going to be very good at resisting not because the power of

capitalism attack on an innovation too kind of exploit our brains is is pretty awesome I being naive or are they just trying to be entertaining mean you just trying to make an amazing game that's totally immersive and sucks you in or are they really thinking a this Jeffrey Miller guy I want to get him fucked up on Battlefield Earth movie yeah. Did not say let's just say Unreal Tournament I want to get him on real tournament and get him complete what are they doing it consciously or they just trying to make the best possible game that's so entertaining and then it just as a side effect it becomes addictive I think it's as well

okay if you're running a video game company the folks actually doing the programming right character design level design whatever

they wanted to be awesome they wanted to just use the best game ever that is just so fun to play but the management knows

we have to sell it we have to make it compelling we have to make people excited about the next version and you know the add-ons

so I think that there's kind of like a

super you going in an issue going on even within company for the the designers just wanted to be cool and management just wants a viable commercial product but doesn't that just come something is cool I mean I'm I'm just playing devil's advocate here cuz I'm not exactly sure I'm friends with a few guys who make video games Cliffy B who work for epic games to make so he showed us unreal way back in the day before Jamie works here we got to see them making Unreal Tournament like I was being made and I went to the aid offices when they were working on Quake 3 what you just these amazing game and seemed to me again I could be naive but it seems to me that all they were doing was just trying to make awesome shit that they like yeah and then it became a good

I think that's most of it yeah I mean this summer like my girlfriend and I were each doing working on our next book proposals and we each got a little bit addicted to Age of Empires HD which is like back in the day 20 years ago and it's really fun cuz we learned a lot about each other just watching each other play like we had such different strategies and in terms of like what you've been told but you prioritize how you deal with animes like it it's an amazing kind of personality test and it's on right and we each got a little bit addicted temporarily in it in our own way

I don't think that's an intention of the designers it's just if you make anything awesome whether it's music whether it stand up comedy or sex weather at sex whether its long-form TV drama like Ozark

people want that you know it works it's it's brain candy yeah I saw you quote you posted about Ozark after I post about how amazing is I'm completely wrapped up in this second season so incredible but you're saying how they always make the kids bratty you don't have kids do parents are murderers and drug dealers spoiler alert need to talk to her I mean you can't just let her go through life hanging out with some kid who lives in the trailer smoking weed and stealing books and you got a kind of warmed up to it after like I've watched first couple episodes when she seemed kind of bratty the daughter and really in that and then and then the amazing like it's awesome and and I don't know why all kids are like her

so but I think screenwriters got lazy about this stuff they think well if there's a family you need marital conflict and you eat parrot Offspring conflict and you need secrets and lies and and but I think the way they're handling it is amazing because the kid doesn't have that kind of conflict the kid has like in my opinion typical sort of relationship with his father where he admires his father and his father's abilities and you know he seems to be it's I just think that shows fucking great it is so well read rather it just so it's so twisted and so much going on so many different levels that you don't really know what's going to happen and legitimate like it

in a Game of Thrones you had that thing where any character could die at any time and that's what that was one of the major things that you have people watching and I think was really good TV drama you you got that kind of

Engagement words for it's like real life like you know the series will continue but you don't know any particular character will we didn't have that for most of culture that's what's really interesting it was through most of mass media fiction that you saw on television in the movies a good guy one you know and it was real predictable and there was always like a little bit of drama like you might lose he might lose all he wins occasionally had something crazy like Thelma and Louise driving off the cliff in the movie you leave the movie trailers holy shit but a gangster move

yeah there was a few movies like that but for the most part in like the Golden Age of Cinema in the seventies the counterculture Cinema you sometimes got those really profound surprise endings the one thing that makes Example The Hustler vanishing point Challenger they going to have the Challenger in the car

but I mean one thing that makes me optimistic about America is that the same adults who were being completely insane to each other about politics on Twitter whatever are watching this really sophisticated you know emotionally insightful Netflix stuff

and I I can't connect those those two things it's like when people aren't talking about certain issues to capable of

and I really am appreciating really insightful drama that's about the subtleties of Human Relationships and and morally ambiguous situations and then they go into the voting booth or get on Twitter and it's like his back and his white and that's it and I hate those people and I love these people

I can't connect the dots between

you know the entertainment media

that we appreciate versus the kind of ideologies that that we oversimplify

yeah I think Twitter and I think well Twitter in particular but blogs as well I think it is a horrible way to communicate when you are saying something to send dispute you know because you're not challenged and I think there's also whether it's 140 characters of 280 characters I just think this limited way of writing and text without talking to someone without being in front of them and communicating with them in the subtleties of human interaction and social cues and recognizing people's feelings and it just it's a piss poor way of getting your thoughts out and it's very nonhuman you know it's it's very its tends to gravitate towards cruelty because there's no consequences for saying cruel things it's almost like you're you throwing a bomb over a wall and you don't know who's over there you know I like you don't you're not there seeing it you're not there's something about that they're just think is

show me into The Human Condition and I think it's it's having a real effect on our civilization in our culture and how we communicate with each other and I think it's galvanizing the Polar Opposites and it's making people go towards these extreme lapsing extreme rights especially people that are easily LED or maybe not so thoughtful about you know the objective way that they're interpreting these events and not not being introspective not looking at themselves with a critical eye and just engaging in this sort of back-and-forth tribal shit with people that I just think is it's so strange to walk and particularly with when you read something and it's really well-written like you can tell this is an intelligent person it's written a bunch of nonsense and call people all tried and Nazis and what's the most recent one box box

the red light reaction the reaction are right this is the new one we have a new one now it's new it's only a couple weeks old the reactionary right baby yeah

I need the weird thing is

people do have a hunger for this more Primal engaged kind of longform discussion which is why podcast like this are really popular in my people are willing to listen to you know to recently smart people talking for an hour about cool topics because

that's the natural condition you know imagine our ancestors hundred thousand years ago around the campfire having a discussion about some fraud issue while they would talk it through until it was more or less results or unless they at least identified here's some things we can agree on and here's the things we can agree to disagree on

Twitter it's it's just the exact opposite it's not sitting around the campfire it's loving his hand grenades over them and it's a thousand followers or something. Let's 30,000 people that might be alive and Hand Grenades and then they might retweet to a bunch of other people at all Jesus thank you come some especially if it's on some hot button topic that they would like to chime in on you know it's this is some strange well I think you know the human social psychology is it's very hard to reach any agreement without a certain amount of back-and-forth preferably face-to-face in-person with as much time as you need and this is why things like

these are the time limited presidential debates drive me nuts I would love to just have

5060 hours of candidates Shore talking it through and people can tune in and just here okay here 6 hours about foreign policy let's see what they really and then voters could have informed choice

imagen con dates actually learning something from each other and being open and honest about that instead they have to pretend that they're their ideas are rock solid and completely well-thought-out and rigid and impossible to evolve at this is it they've got it you're wrong and what would my opponent wants is some something terrible for America in God we we seen as hustle so many times and yet it's the same hustle every 4 years

yeah I hope we get to a future where people are allowed to be epistemic Lee humble like here's what I don't know and I don't know a lot about most things and even if politicians or so I just sort media Figures were able to take that attitude and just it kind of gets back to the apocracy point right everybody a merlino's

about most topics I know virtually nothing or I've heard a few things third hand that I can kind of regurgitate at a party but we're all kind of expected to have an informed you about everything

and this is something I try to model for my students like if asked a question and I really don't know the answer I try to make a point of saying I don't know let's look it up that's all that's important the idea that you should know everything about everything is preposterous yeah

and you know if your 20 year old undergrad

you don't know what the typical 50 year old knows you might think oh they probably mastered most of the wisdom in the world already or you might think there's like gigabytes of stuff and they can't possibly know what all you're such a spectrum to the average person that has a like a very intensive job I would say if you're involved in something computer coding electronic something that 10-12 hours a day you're engrossed you don't have a lot of time to focus on other areas me you don't really have a lot of time to expand your understanding of whether it's biology mathematics whatever it is it doesn't apply to what you do for a living. I'm so this this notion that you like people are embarrassed about things they don't know and I think that's really unfortunate it's it's it it's one of the main stumbling points when it comes to like open and honest this course is that you're not dumb if you don't know some things

you know you just don't know some things and you just no way you know everything I think it's a great point a lot of people have these cognitively demanding jobs and that's not just white collar workers don't mean a lot of manual trades you've got to think about what you're doing and it it's hard mental labor and then you get home and you have dinner and you have the kids and I'm working your family life and what are you going to do by the time you finally have some alone time at whatever 9 p.m. are you going to you know turn on the nature Channel and watch a really hardcore David Attenborough animal behavior or you going to be like I was just watch

you know I'm Brianna or whatever yeah yeah I mean people want to skate at that point yeah there's not enough time in the day one of the most beautiful things in the podcast that was completely unexpected for me is that it gives me this very unusual opportunity to sit down and talk to somebody without any interruptions for 3 hours which I could never ask someone to do in real life came up before I get to have dinner if you and I went out to dinner we we talked and you know maybe it was someone else to be with us different conversations be eating all this amazing did you try that simple conversations it's fun everything but it's not completely locked in like this with the headphones on through a microphone the knowledge of the people are listening and that these these subjects that you're discussing you're allowing these ideas to play themselves out in your you're sort of moving them around and asking questions and looking at them from different angles and and to have that Liberty in

freedom to do that it is a very rare thing and for people that get to listen and I enjoy Sam Harris podcast in particular radiolab's one of my favorite one that there's so many good ones out there what's really good about them is that you get a chance to listen to discourse uninterrupted uncensored undirected and this is something that I think is sorely missing from the rest of our culture and it's one of the reasons why they seem to have caught on so well I mean if you respect the ideas are you talking about you should be going to go potty yes and attention and let them kind of breathe like opening a bottle of wine and just letting it do the aeration thing before you pour it and

it's funny how much of a thirst there is for that I mean if it ask me 10 years ago would anybody ever spent 3 hours listening to a podcast I would have said no this just this is one way out acceleration of culture that's going to be faster and faster nobody will watch more than a 90 second clip on YouTube. Olivia and it said it's the opposite way I think people have a yearning for

a more relaxed pace of dialogue that is actually a break from that that frenetic pace of their work-life right

I think even like lean towards things that are like tech reviews things along those lines those are getting longer and longer when people are just mean there was never a television show where someone would discuss cell phones in depth with no interruption for over an hour that's very common now where where someone will go over all the different details of a phone and let you know like here to here's what's new about the Galaxy Note 9 and thousands of you so I clearly someone's miss something

I mean even on YouTube like you can get 25 minute reviews of like an AR-15 accessory not just like the rifle but like the Red Dot scope or was I'm sure they're long but wanting reviews or whatever yeah there's a lot

I mean I think that's just a more natural pace of human human discourse no pair of mine like a hundred thousand years ago sitting around the fire with a bunch of people

no smartphones no video no TV no movies no recorded music the entertainment is each other and it's not rushed it's like the sun the sun went down none of us are going to sleep for 4 hours what do we do to entertain each other with jokes I mean break out the ukulele sit down comedy somebody probably stood up held Court told some good stories and now I mean a good story is always valued a good story tell her this is my Anthropologist colleagues tell me is you know your status if you're in a tribal Society of small-scale society is heavily dependent on not just how good a hunter you are how many kids you have its how entertaining are you in the evenings sure and the people who were

I just break the monotony or just gold they're there treasure yeah they give you fuel to give you energy like when you're around someone is really hilarious to tell great stories you like everyone around us like you get fired up on it yeah it's I don't view of the future I'm very optimistic and I think that all the chaos that we're going through right now politically and socially in particular at this is I feel like this is just an adolescent. Of communication that we are experiencing this this open flood like we've opened up the the barriers for communication anybody can communicate now it's just it's going to take a while before the discourse leveled out and you got a lot of loud noises on all sides and a lot of people fighting for power and fighting fighting for vert

fighting for whatever social brownie points they get by pointing out their position being correct in your position being foolish and silly and this is the future in this is done and there's this is cruel aspect to it which is interesting like when it's someone Miss steps and someone says something that they regret and they delete it. There's as cancel culture because people realize the immediacy of all this and they're terrified of it happening to them so it's like they're just throwing rocks at whoever might be the accused it's fascinating to watch I need a whole new set of social norms are people just call me talk down about this stuff and I think it's kind of like one of my favorite books about 10 social history is called dods of where do I purchase by Deidre McCloskey and economic historian she points out when you switch from like the Middle Ages where everyone's a peasant

to this urbanized commercial culture where people mostly Traders and have little shops and whatever they needed to learn how to interact with strangers to provide value for money and they needed a whole new set of Virtues that had to do with the reliability and thinking what am I making what goods or services am I providing that actually are useful and it took in a couple generations for people to enter that kind of capitalist motive what can I do it's helpful to others they can support my family I think now we have a cultural shift where we realize I'm getting social media how do we cope with the fact that everybody virtue signals

everybody sometimes says things that are that are mean and stupid and everyone's fallible and anything you say will be on a permanent record basically how do we cope with that and we were used to a sort of public culture where everything is very polished and edited and curated and and that time is gone so we need a new set of kind of Social and moral Norms that cut each other a lot more slack I think yeah I would agree with you and I was I would say that the inclination towards kindness and communication and understanding should be rewarded and that we we we need to reward that and I want to say ostracize people that are inclined to go towards his cancel culture idea but we need to let people be aware of it you know we were talking before the podcast that I have like

all these emails that I can't catch up on cuz I was gone I was in the mountains for 6 days with no cell phone service at all I felt better when I was there I just did I feel like there's a certain amount of anxiety that comes with being connected to all these people all the time and constantly checking your mentions and constant looking at Google News to find out what chaos is coming our way and it's just I just don't think that that's healthy and I I don't think I think I do my very best to mitigate the negative effects of it but my very best is not good jobs because when it's taken away from me and I've had this happen twice over the last few months I was in Lanai small island off of why one of the Hawaiian islands and I broke my phone and took a few days for them to send me a new one so good

so present and I feel so healthy and then this past week the same thing no cell phone service for all these days and so I just felt better

I think there's a funny thing even that happened with Burning Man culture where like when it got started in the early 90s it was let's all come together and have this excitement of interacting more and now since pronounce one of the few places where you don't get cell phone service and you can't really be online it's like oh man this is such a relief because we literally can't stay connected and the community were in his only 70,000 people instead of 330 million is almost Boulder $70,000 that's a fucking big city of the freaks it's a big City compared to Twitter

yeah I am fascinated by burning man I can't go because hippies will drive me crazy and there's too much dust. But I love the idea and I write a check like the support burning man I supported as a project as an idea I don't necessarily want to go there until they got really polished and worked out but I think what the idea behind it as fast as people saying I don't like this I don't like where this is going I think there's a lot of people that would like to do something different this is try it out for a week let's just everybody let's agree we'll get together through these days and let's let's just fucking dance and we'll have glow sticks and wear pasties and get fucking crazy do Ecstasy and a lot of people like fuck yeah let's do it and then this thing happens and this thing is only a few years old I mean a really is what a decade-and-a-half how many years have they been doing it

the first Burning Man was like the late 80s but it was just like a couple dozen people and then adjusted gradually grew and it did really became a pretty solidified cell Culture by probably the late 90s and no leadership well there is there's behind the scenes leadership of course and I mean that's another fascinating thing is depending on the political lenses that you wear when you go there it's either like a Libertarian Paradise or it's a communist Paradise or it's spontaneous self-organization of some sort but there is there certainly are people who are kind of coordinating at it's just they're not there's tickets now if it's hard to get it's hard to get tickets even hard to get a parking pass for this is my point like why would they want to limit this thing I cool who's our is like a Bitcoin thing like your arbitrarily limiting the amount of Bitcoin or deciding as well

certain number in there doing this with humans or just saying why can't really go over 70,000 just sign into work just open up the floodgates and said anybody wants to come to Burning Man in and get fucking crazy just come on down how many think how many think would come half a million boy who supplies the extra Porta-Potty use and right now the Emergency Medical Services and therapists for people having bad trips and like you need some infrastructure and then you know Nevada State Police have to kind of make sure there's not like murders and stuff but do they come around oh yeah police how fast you drive and they must be so annoyed like what are they been dealing with up until burning man fucking nothing

no just a little bit of money someone blew up a trailer to get their mixture wrong

but yeah it's it's fascinating in terms of how quickly it went from not being a thing at all to being its own subculture with its own Welch film moral norms and dress styles and systems of virtue signaling in

sort of political expectations about what beliefs are the right ones to have even though it didn't start out political at all well whenever you get freaky you go left wing

like if you get freedom and freaky and drugs that's left wing. Right I mean there's no real Melissa My Eyes Wide Shut type shit we wearing masks and everybody's got to

right you don't typically hear people like I want to bring him out on like dropped off site and and I realize like

Mormon monogamy is really the proper way to live nice people though they might be right there they are some of the nicest folks I know if I had to say if like there's one religion or how to say like what it what are the what are your expectations of friendliness and niceness I quit where is where's the highest expectation for me it's Mormons that's one religion like I think it's nonsense I think Joseph Smith was a little con man 1820 when he found golden tablets that contain the Lost work of Jesus and only he could read him cuz he got a magic rock and all that crazy shit it is absolutely ridiculous but the end result is a bunch of really nice folks like they have a wonderful Community they're really nice to each other once it got rid of all that polygamy shit and I once they got rid of the 90 wives and

dressing up like a pilgrim they became like a really nice community of people there like generally really friendly

so my Grandad who is a business school Professor back in the forties he moved his his little family to Salt Lake City and they lived there for a while and he was really inspired by the kind of family values and then the other one reason he sort of went on to have 12 kids of his own and not that he turned Mormon but he thought they're on to something in terms of how seriously they take the future both on Earth and in the afterlife they believe in the afterlife don't they get a planner the wrong with a guy right at well this is something I loved about the TV series The expanse I don't know if you've seen keep hearing about it and I haven't gotten into it yet it's just too many damn shows are awesome to watch these days but as soon as I'm done with Ozark I'ma jump in maybe a couple hundred years in the future and so we colonize Mars and asteroid belt and is one group of people who are building the first ship to colonize a distant star system

and who's doing it the Mormons and I thought of course of course it's going to be a religion that has a far-sighted approach and that's kind of pro natalist and that's all about family values and like increasing your numbers and and yeah of course it's going to be that I'm not

what's social justice Warriors putting together Starship

yeah

but did you ever see the the Osmond family photograph from one of their albums or early albums were they all got their own Planet cuz they think that when you die you get your own Planet so the album was based on that concept and like if you open up the album so I can plant Donny asteroid belt

yeah they're totally locked and loaded to do the the interstellar colonization I mean it's it's strange the blind people go on that people put on and that they would put those blinders on like it's almost like if you just can go hey look let's just all admit Joseph Smith was full of shit but we got a good thing going on here folks real nice to each other and seems to be some real positive energy involved in believing in this higher power in the greater good the overwhelming sense of community that we all have reacted to the South Park guys doing Book of Mormon book that is a brutal music in terms of like the way they're depicted buffoons believing in nonsense trying to recruit these indigenous people it's kind of mean to ruthless and hilarious at the same time and then

wonderful if you want to find out more about being a Mormon website come check it out thank you

I think having that that humility in that sense of humor about what you're doing I wish we saw more of that in like I can email cuz there's a lot of fields that are very bad and I don't do good work but that are terribly terribly serious about it

gender studies

or social psychology gender studies posted something on Instagram yesterday I was at a bookstore and there is a feminist baby book does feminist baby finds her voice and it's a baby screaming into a bullhorn look at this picture

baby screaming into a bullhorn and I said that the lines between parody and reality of never been blurrier and some people laugh but a lot of people called me a piece of shit and the height is one of the rare times I drove in the comments to take a look-see into the gates of hell but why is the baby screaming into a bullhorn what voice did she have do what what oppression is she railing against at 3 months old is she screaming about the patriarchy when she can't even fucking talk yet and he hears more parody why is she fat and ugly what kind of baby is that a baby looks like a thumb she doesn't even have a chin this is chaos a real baby looks like an M&M with legs

crazy look she got fucked up hair and the Verde gendered her they put a bow on her which is really fucked up to do to a baby you decided that she's a girl how dare you you piece of shit you transfer the asshole

and the ruges is a little bit of makeup on she already has a baby fucked up hair

crazy finds her voice she found her voice I listen to the baby give the baby a bullhorn let's all gather round I got poop what is the baby asleep baby saying she finds her voice like it's parody even at the book is wonderful I don't know that it's not maybe it's a great book maybe it's fun maybe the silly book that's parody. Fuc it that would be a goddamn character on South Park a baby feminist with a bow that screams at the top of her lungs what is this free the nipple

oh I'm right now I'm hungry I get it that's from the 70s baby maybe you can't tell whether something is from it or its satirical then you need to lighten up about your field yes and just like your studies in particular but what is it about it that cleans itself towards

foolishness

I think it's very hard to do

good work in a field where you have to Everyday systematically tonight common sense

and and deny the evidence of your own eyes and ears about what's right in front of you like how sex defenses work

I think that creates a habit of

interacting with the world in a way that says

what I study is going to be completely divorced from every aspect of day-to-day life and everybody else I encounter is not in my field because if if you allow any crosstalk between like

you're sort of blank slate gender ideology and the real world the Audiology crumbles so you can you can only maintain it behind us wall insulation

and that's a terrible position to be and I don't envy the people who who live their lives that way it all grows inside the walled Gardens of Academia and outside of that it's the internet groups from people that were indoctrinated into these ideas in in college or and it's also I think in some ways there is a leveling of the playing field. A lot of these ideologies present some people where they they go know you're not a freak you're okay you know there was some silly article on fat acceptance the other day and it was talking and it did then they got proposed which is fine I accept people who drink except accept all kinds of on healthy choices but let's don't lie to me just don't lie about the physical reality of what you've done your body to reach 400 pounds that's not that's not healthy you're saying it's healthy you're saying it's okay no you're just not dead yet if you lost

pounds you would feel wonderful that would be healthier like if you smoke everyday you like look no cancer smoking healthy no no you just you just but your body is dealing with it your body's processing it it won't be able to Forever that is exactly what's going on if you're morbidly obese and for you to pretend any differently and to just go on about this fat acceptance movement beautiful this and that like know you're obese eating too much food have you see a fat guy how come he doesn't get the same sort of treatment we see a morbidly obese man in his underwear no one saying he's beautiful cuz he's disgusting and he's fat and he's lazy and he's he's addicted to food we all know it but if it's a woman were so inclined to like it's okay let her go she's fine you're wonderful you're beautiful you're amazing like you give her her space we treat them

as if they're incapable of recognizing the absolute reality of their physical being

I think it's important you know to

address both the kind of individual Choice level and also the kind of systemic level like the food industry and what is being promoted and what were the federal government promoted for ages and it was a terrible situation where you could have followed exactly what the FDA recommended and it would have been bad for you for decades and because of lobbying and because of the powers-that-be end and influence an end

I think that's the level to criticize right it if you have a systemic problem like promotion of tobacco products and you want a safer alternative

then yeah you got a dress the tobacco industry

we have this bizarre situation for example where a lot of people in my department work on alcoholism treatment research how do you get people to drink glass or they work on how to get people to stop taking opiates how to deal with opiate addiction

and if you make a suggestion like oh here's some awesome new research showing that if people switch from opiates to cannabis it like dramatically lower the risk of death Bertha switch from alcohol to cannabis it has all these health benefits relatively to like being an alcoholic

but it's kind of considered too boo to raise that in a lot of medicine and psychology into people being self-indulgent if you say they said they should switch from one thing to another in a kind of harm reduction mode almost like a methadone type solution yeah and a lot of them come out of a kind of 12-step program mentality where it's like you have a disease if you ever do anything that is bad for you then you relapsed an end that's feeding your disease I think that's idiotic that's not the evidence shows that's not the way to treat any of these physical addictions but

something like cannabis listen alternative is

it's totally marginalized and I could email it like you really can't talk about it as a valid alternative where people could come home and they can drink or they could come home and make you got high and maybe getting high for a lot of people might be better it's

is that changing though I haven't seen any evidence that it's changing at least within Academia really I would think that that would be one of the first places where it does change because the influence of the pharmaceutical industry isn't so deeply entwined in the system itself it's not like pharmaceutical industry people are dropping off pamphlets on talking points when you're giving lectures who gives you the research funding to look into this right now she wants to do it of alcohol and alcoholism or National Institute of drug abuse if you do a grant proposal that says

here's an alternative that might work

they will shut it down cuz the federal government does not those agencies don't want to blow back of some Senator saying how dare you find this research that says this is a valid alternative yeah so everyone who works in these areas is kind of lock into a system of of grant funding that subject to kind of political censorship the funding agencies remember those talking dog commercials about 10 years ago where there was a girl she comes home from school that dogs like Vincy I really wish you wouldn't smoke pot you're not the same when you doing I miss my friend and the girl sitting there Stone nevermind or dogs talking or dog runs away it turns out that the organization that funded those commercials was funded by tobacco alcohol and pharmaceutical companies there

drug dealers who are against drugs it's literally like hookers doing a commercial again strippers that's literally what it's like and we just accepted this it was all over television it was everywhere you look parody maybe came for postures it was like this is your brain on drugs remember the eggs and everybody's like I'm hungry me to meet million comedian that jokes on that can you give me the munchies man this is just Insanity that this is allowed to take place is that drugs that kill in normous numbers of people are allowed to demonize drugs that kill no one ever in the history of use if you look at that rationally if you were something from some other planet that was studying the human race and you saw the way we program people and the way we spend enormous sums of money to project a certain idea and get it in the people

pads through these very influential short memorable videos you'd be like this is a culture and civilization of an organ organism that is Matt this is madness

yeah I also asked like myself I was just going to look in 1,500 years to whatever Mike my great-grandkids or future people to stumble upon my books or this podcast or whatever end

if this would make zero sense and would be totally embarrassing both intellectually and ethically then don't take it seriously and this particular issue I think it's really important for citizens to understand how much of science is constrained by what can be funded by the federal government and that we are not actually supported to do certain kinds of research that might be really helpful to people

it's the same thing with sex research right it is virtually impossible to get Federal funding to do any kind of sex research in America these days so what are you do you write a grant to do something else and then you kind of do the sex research on the side using like some of the resources I don't do this but everybody I know does sex research does it is it because they're concerned that the image of

funding sex research versus funding up whether it's obesity or hunger

poverty whatever it is like there's not enough resources to go around why would you spend any money studying this you must be a pervert

it's partly. But it's it's partly

you know the individuals in Washington who administer these grants don't want the political Flack if some politician discovers oh you're you're doing funding on on like how women can have more orgasms outrageous and it's like that sounds like one of the most cost-effective ways to increase human happiness I've ever heard of right people embarrassed of embarrassed about it I don't embarrass of sex marital therapy research you can do like if you want to research how do you make a monogamous relationship

lustful Express an argument you can get some money to do that but even there

like the kind of suggestions you could make a quite restrictive in terms of what what kind of therapy you're allowed to to research Park about

so

yeah I wish citizens understood this because their tax dollars are not being allocated in the best way to deliver the benefits and their real lives to their families and their relationships that they if they could do so to bring it all back to obesity

what would I would like and I bet I could say the same about you is he would like to take some of these sort of influential videos that we've seen done that demon eyes binoculars drugs like marijuana and put those on sugar put those on how people are addicted to Sugar people are addicted to so many things that are causing obesity so many things that are causing us to have this epidemic of. Maybe go to Disneyland it's one of the saddest things the world to see how many people are on scooters cuz of eating themselves out of their ability to be mobile on their own they just overflowing all the other side of the scooters it's it's very depressing and then you see them what they eat their drink and slushies and you know

eating fucking nonsense and this this is a it again it's another addiction and India availability of it is so I mean imagine if you were heroin addict and everywhere you went has heroin

that's what it's like to be a sugar addict if your sugar out of every store you go into is filled with your drug every 7-Eleven right when you go to pay for your gas or whatever you're doing it's still with your truck right there in front of you your trucks everywhere

and you know if if you want to do something alternative like I've been involved in the Paleo movement for a few years and then like my girlfriend's vegan and if you want to find good paleo or vegan food it's like getting a little easier but it's not mainstream enough that there's like a whole island Walmart devoted to her and does a shity Isle yeah so

I don't know what that the food system is a pretty hard nut to crack because there's an awful lot of money at stake and the profit margins on junk food are very very high and it's also it's very difficult to keep things on the Shelf things go I mean if you have real fresh food it goes bad very quickly. It's natural that's what it was it supposed to do and good luck keeping Supermarket open if you can only keep your vegetables for a couple of days

tell if there was like long life Cal I'd be pretty sad about that but that would be said like some sort of a artificial turf type tail you know it gets funky

but I'm kind of excited about new developments like clean Meat Locker on me. Yeah it's headless meets Labs if no central nervous system to grow in in trying to figure out how to get it to have like a muscle consistency like a filet mignon or something it mean that you got to realize an animal with different cuts of meat have a different texture to them because there's different muscle density cuz the animals use their body I think you have to electrically stimulate them so it's kind of has to Twitch and not it's weird but if people would have nerves then disgusting would make the argument that I could feel somehow or another and some neighboring to mention

it'll have like fake fake nerve I'm at what I'm excited about is you could potentially had meat that's not just from like the top three species you know keep me from being a little pigs and chicken well you only people Jeffrey one of my edge of your tweets was like celebrities will start selling pieces of themselves that can turn into like of Ryan Gosling steak

she don't want to encourage that bro trust me Brian don't go down that road you to delicious

yeah man I don't know about all that I don't think we should encourage kissing what if people are delicious that could be a real problem

I think the lab grown people always be cheaper than like

I don't know about that yeah I bet you could buy some one real cheap and some sort of third world country for food you know there was a terrible not terrible in a bad way but in terms of its Revelation says there's a documentary piece from Vice on Liberia and what he thinks about it was that they were selling human meat and that this guy recognized it because he had eaten humans before it's so when there was a stand that was selling meat on the side of the road and he turn them in for selling human meat and the reason why he news cuz he had eaten people like okay when's the next line

what the fuck you mad at me if you gave me a piece of lamb and you didn't tell me what it was I feel like not sure how many people you have to eat before you absolutely know that something people like fuck man saw a lot of lamb chops and would not bet 100% of my ability to distinguish a lamb chop from say of a veal chop or a venison chop

but all this stuff is going to

create some

real moral quandary like there will be this what Jonathan haidt calls moral dumbfounding Rico yuck that is disgusting why

I don't know it just is I can't give you a reason will robot brothels this is one of the more recent discussions the ethical implications of robot brothels and there's a robot brothel it's scheduled to be open where is that Germany so where does I believe I believe it is and there's always people are up and horses

Craigslist Texas you can probably fucking tiger if you got enough money country's first robot sex brothels set to open in Texas prompts backlash that's real one if they just like they put out a fucking press conference tell him we're going to open up a robot brothel what's let him go crazy is Ron White he did it from the desk of Ron White in Austin Texas he sent this email for half hour how long does it take to get off with a robot what if you lose your concentration by 2020 yeah but what you don't want to show up late right you want to be there at the end of the day but unmotivated people cleaning out those fuck holes what time does was actually at the Forefront of the lap dance club revolution in the late 1800 Revolution there's a revolution Oh Yeah from from old stripper style clubs to lap dancing

actually started enough and Texas customers can test and rent dolls before deciding to purchase one

imagine that certain cars that have been on the lot for a while and like he's thinking about buying an M4 Mike well y'all should read the SI my girlfriend Diana Fleischmann wrote about sex bots which got her a little bit of notoriety few months ago good on balance because there's a lot of guys who

need like a sexual release and if it kind of takes them away from doing some like exploited a Bill Cosby style Behavior into just doing something like this which is kind of weird and gross but innocuous like it's not hurting anybody without being that when make that connection cuz that that's a that's a tricky connection right because most people think of rape they don't think of it as an act of arousal or sex or you no intimacy rather it's a thing of power and some sort of a creepy sociopathic Psychopathic Behavior trait

I know that's the standard you and gender feminism but I don't think it's well supported by the evidence for example there's a big problem with rape in India right and corn as far as I understand is it illegal in India now I don't think it's even like I think it's pretty hard to access porn websites from India but I think if you legalize porn there I predict the rate of sexual abuse with drop yeah I really do sort of experiment

but the thing about

robots and sex is

they're going to get so good

there's going to be like a person and then we're going to be in this weird ex machina sort of situation where how would you feel like what if you were dancing around that really hot Japanese girl an ex machina she starts taking off your clothes like what we do here but she feels warm. It's beautiful she smells good but this is my all my senses are telling me this is a person and she's a good listener doesn't nag you nag you about your information we distribute it to the ladies these days correct I just happen to be explaining true things as a crime of reality and we know there's

there's this sort of really broad spectrum of sexuality in terms of male-female and terms are you know in terms of the obvious you know what the Rock on one side and Kate Upton on the other right you know he's super uber female Uber males and then there's all these like who's the guy was in The Hobbit

Elijah Woods that guy he saw it in the store a weird space in between the two of those people you compare him to you know fill in the blank Herschel Walker it's not that manly you know and then there's there's women that don't feel represented by these standard views of female sexuality as well but this just speak to the variability of the human genome and it is DNA in general there's different people that breed with different people in different shapes come out until we figure out how to manipulate their shape which seems to be right around the corner with the robots like dolls but seems like they're both going to probably the same time where you going to be able to choose from you know having sex with a robot or having sex with the Hulk real possibilities that everyone's going to look like Thor this seems like it's not too far away 1 2 3 generations maybe possibly inside of our lifetime will have mastered the human

to the point where we're going to be Preposterous means can be like the Star Wars Cantina scene everywhere you go oh yeah well this is what happens whenever you have a biological Innovation and it opens up new possibilities in terms of the evolution of bodies or behaviors as you get this adaptive radiation this explosion of possibilities like the Cambrian explosion write 530 million years ago animals finally figured out how do you program a multicellular body with a nervous system and as soon as I got that you've got all this these bizarre new forms and then you got no dinosaurs and mammals in US

I think once we can program the human genome

and you have parents were like

I want I want to select for kids who were like really tall and really really just

another parents are like I want you little hobbit babies who are like hardcore atheist and then you'll you'll get a Divergent it done anything they want the first early adopters I imagine it's going to be about fetal transformation about taking something that's in the womb and manipulating it and then as it emerges and then and grows then going to see what it is fucking parents were just gigantic JRR Tolkien fans and you have hurt furry feet is 2 ft tall you like what the fuck mom like you asshole just want to The Hobbit Troll so you should come entirely possible I need to I think this Xbox will come a lot earlier

what do I look like what do I look like right now in terms of sex bots what are we looking at what's a state-of-the-art type Google state-of-the-art sex robot pretty good but they're not then I could not good at like language or conversation or eye contact or handjob work movement or whatever but

I think it will be this Tipping Point where they can do conversation that's good enough

right it doesn't have to be quite as smart as an actual lover but it can be a hell of a lot nicer than an actual lover it can have better memory for all your preferences and your desires in your like it'll also be more trainable in terms of it'll kind of register over the last time I asked this question like you didn't respond much but this other question you talk for 5 minutes I'll ask more of that right this is all very problematic Behavior discussing hear Jeffrey well like your tone

trainable well my girlfriend's not answer on how about you be nice first set of expecting this fucking robot just take care of your dick and balls and be nice to you all the time and remember all the stuff you like what about it we would develop into total narcissist sociopath with robots that we can just get to do whatever we want some on a leash well so they're two different ways I could go right right on the one hand

like if there's a woman I'm interested in let's say and she has access to a male sex bots he's like really funny cuz it's like it's little neural network is learn like all of your stand-up routines or how to how to Riff on today's news and and it's a great listener and remembers everything about her backstory

I can either be like I can't compete with that I'll have to dis it I'll have to say you you're not allowed to see him anymore or I'll have to level up

and be better yes like humans

and I hope people will level up and we'll get to see will learn from the people don't level up like how they fall apart offers that you wouldn't even more disturbing scenario

some people be like you know that Jeffrey Miller's a handsome guy like the fuck them all the time and they going to make a version of you and bring it around the mall with Alicia on and you're going to be going to the Apple Store and a version of you going to be kicked and come with a dog collar on

standing right next to you while you're buying a new Macbook you like what the fuck and it's going to be totally legit cuz you don't like it oh well oh look like swappable face let me see what it looks like. This is just this is this is like when you're looking at one of them digital renderings of a house they haven't built yet

let's see what we got here are they warm come on

why is Howard Stern so that's creepy they haven't passed The Uncanny Valley clearly was Harry chess what the fuck the guy robot are you a long video celebrity deep faith and there will be people wandering around with their Jordan Peterson sex bots on Alicia in the store will have you seen the porn with a do face swaps that's that's getting really good they're really good at that now this is another social Revolution we're going to have to brace for is an era when you can do a credible porn fake of any celebrity or any citizen just based on Mike sampling my Facebook photos or do you know hilarious stand-up comedian who has the funniest Instagram page of all time in his Instagram page is about 80% of him face swap videos of the Kardashians and President Trump and Kanye

and they just so fucking ridiculous because you know that they're fake cuz it's really obvious but it's essentially like a new art form if you think of like sketch comedy and play one for him too we got here this is a good one every season I put a recorder in the chair

Facebook background right now sweetheart pics and information here

so this kind of stuff but see what I love about this is it's so obvious you know it's it's this is essentially mean most me as a mother will sketches he does on his Instagram page but most of his stuff is his face swap thing which is I mean relatively new technology when was face swap invented less than a decade ago or so on your phone and it's become this new form of comedy of sketch comedy with a guy like him as such a good impressionist you know but this is crude and obvious and how long is it going to be before someone can Ashley mandate they already have that machine that allow the technology that allows you to take especially someone like me who's talk for countless hours you take your voice you take all of the recordings that I've ever done just more than a thousand podcast you throw them into this machine and you basically have all my various inflection

anger sadness laughter giddiness perplexed all the different words that I have in my vernacular and you put them all into this thing and you can kind of more fit around its Photoshop for voice so you have the video where you can face swap and manipulate people's images and it's getting better and better all the time and you have Photoshop for voice you can essentially make movies with people with it just do whatever you want them to do yeah pretty soon totally impossible to tell a fake audio recording from real and and then fake video from real

and what do we do then it means we can't really trust

digital records of people in the same way

it also means you can

I don't might be good I mean it means you could digitally sample anybody use a good communicator and they can do an unlimited number of

I mean you could have David Attenborough you know natural history videos forever even after he's dead Nazi propaganda videos as well that's what's really weird you could essentially would be up to the user that's so someone like Kyle Dunnigan but the evil version could take David Attenborough and

you know you do whatever you want

almost like what we're saying about communication that you this open Floodgate of communication were learning how to manage that all the implications of this is really recent

I think with them

Human Relationships you know we'll have to figure out kind of ethically

once let's say want somebody can make like a deep fake video porn of their ex-lover right and then their wife wife catches them watching it or

you know the wife buys a sex pot and keeps it at work okay like is that cheating comes home from work exhausted all busted up feeling like I just want to watch those are nice I don't want to even talk to you whenever she was broken

yeah is that cheating out some people think I mean some people think looking at a cheating is that all people have varying levels of standards

and they don't negotiate at they don't talk about it this is how my friend David laid points out in his books gum ethical porn for dicks which is about responsible porn viewership for men that if you're in a relationship with a woman you're straight guy you need to have the talk about what is your girlfriend consider cheating in terms of porn watching

most guys don't have the guts to have a conversation most women don't either and then there is it that you don't want to open up that door I just keep it on the sneak tip she can't complain and then no one knows nothing and then we're all good yes smile go to the movies in your hold hands Jeffrey and everything's fine rom-com you sing a song with a ball gag tied up in a basement

covered in baby oil

Brent

some people to a happy place I'll have to go there there go there all day sometimes people have to talk about this stuff like that like grown-ups and as the technology keeps advancing right and becomes more and more

you know the line between like

porn on real life

gets fuzzy on fuzzier with robots in between virtual reality and robots like that would be like to eat the real Ultimate brothel so you wouldn't be as confused by The Uncanny Valley because there's so much closer in a visual sense of replicating and I'm sure you've seen like some of the more recent video games like God of War in a bunch of these look really high-end games the graphics are so intense especially in the you know the little scenes that they do or they have promo clips and stuff you look at me like is this real in game video that I'm looking at these asses and Sam looks like and watch a movie that this in combination like some sort of real 4K HD virtual reality in combination with a sex robot is probably where people going to

yeah I think so and then the other question is like

what happens with that technology and terms education and college and how people acquire skills and knowledge and insight it's really really hard to imagine that people still think in 15 years okay going to physical classroom and sitting in a listening to the average Community College like Adjunct professor now talk in about

human sexuality or gender feminism or political science. Don't think that's a state-of-the-art that's the way we should do that

and and then what happens I mean

it seems

kind of unlikely that University is as we know them will keep existing in anything close to the current form

and yet no one's talking about this

like I wouldn't be that surprised to pass universities in America go bankrupt within 15-20 years so do you think the people going to be getting their education and some sort of an online form some sort of virtual classroom for more some maybe new not yet created version some new virtual reality for him that's a lot more interactive I don't think it'll be just watching videos and then taking quizzes have you paid attention to what Elon Musk has been saying about his neural link

I bet yeah what do you think about what you heard so far

I think it'll be very very hard technically to do that but what if what do you know about it if you can explain to people who don't know what we're talking about

if I understand correctly you having watch like you interview Elon etcetera he's just concerned that the band with that connects the brain to the world or the brain to the internet is quite narrow like you can get a lot of information quickly through your eyes and ears but your speed of like typing and controlling things is were speaking as is kind of limited so I think there's a Porsche too kind of open up that that bandwidth and the speed of communication between human brain and digital reality and other people

if they figure out a way to do that

it's a total game-changer in terms of how people

interact with not just social media but in general with each other I mean it it means basically you have a global telepathy system if you want

and then everything changes cuz it means

the ease with which one part of my brain communicates with another part isn't that much higher than these with which that part communicates with somebody else's

Father Brian Park

what I've been thinking about it some sort of universal language in that if that's if they bridge the gap between cultures and civilizations and the way people communicate and doing so do it through some sort of a digital interface and instead of like very simple characters that equal words that you put into your linguistic dictionary and you have an understanding with this person's talk about that you get like real clear Concepts maybe even like in emoji form of hieroglyphic form or some sort of form where we figure out over x amount of years how to communicate through agreed-upon imagery or agreed-upon data in some sort of a way that lets people express emotions and and perhaps even more engrossing and more complicated than the actual language that were enjoying right now yeah it'll be amazing I mean The evolutionary backstory to this right

you basically have the whole history of life on Earth to know before humans invent language where animal communication is pretty primitive like all you really have at the most complicated is like Nightingales producing complicated bird song to attract mates that's about as much as you get chimps that have certain sounds for Tiger's and times for eagles that have like a maximum of maybe a dozen different sounds but with human language compared to that it really is suddenly like having telepathy where you can communicate so much so quickly so efficiently and yeah

you know what's neuralink works it would be as far in advance of languages languages of kind of animal signaling

well and it's hard it's hard to imagine what that world looks like

because

you know imagine a form of Twitter where it's not just through your

you know your thumbs on a keypad but it's a drug brain interface

and then when people

it's not just saying something mean or stupid it's even thinking something mean or stupid that could immediately get posted

and once you kind of start sharing your whole subconscious

was people for neurolink then

we all have to level up with some new social norms about what what that means instead of

how much radical honesty we can take from each other that seems to be where the future is the complete the dissolving of all boundaries between people and information people and their lives and that some sort of a way of recording your actual experiences or letting people share them in real time like imagine if people decided to let people through some virtual reality scenario put on headsets an experience you having sex with your girlfriend and say hey we're going to fuck on Periscope come on join in and everybody just puts on their neural link and their augmented reality headset and they've they put on their haptic feedback suit which is no now and you don't like iPhone 10 level you know what you go back to iPhone once piece of shit haptic feedback tents going to be incredible it's going to be silky smooth

it's going to feel like real touch and they're going to be able to have sex along with you can have a digital orgy

I think that's coming within 50 years maybe earlier that's a very conservative guess yeah there's a haptic feedback system looking around what is this what are you one of these things for climate control systems biometric systems motion-capture and Avatar system or we're fucked Jeffrey this is all happening while we were chit-chatting about at these people Verde engineered it cuz it's not even my bike so I don't have to worry about it and my generation yet cuz it's only science fiction

like you said something on Sam Harris to show they gave me a little bit of hope that turned out to not be true if you were talking about asteroids about our ability to recognize asteroids and stop the impact nope Court to Neil deGrasse Tyson we need at least 10 years we need to know that they're 10 years they're going to hit in 10 years and then maybe we could do something

that's not country music okay here's the thing it would be really good to invest at least a few tens of billions of dollars and doing that for sure as insurance but like the probability of a significant asteroid impact live in the next century is pretty low if I understand it correctly guess where does motherfuker just buy all the time

it's so it's the probability of us getting hit eventually is 100%. It'll happen

probably in a few million years but is that to make yourself feel better all well you got to play the odds right I mean we could we could we could be exterminated by a gamma ray burst from up like a supernova at any time with no warning but it's pretty unlikely that it hasn't happened

before in history of life on earth right but it happens constantly all throughout the Universe there was a documentary watch wants to freak me the fuck out it was all about hypernova and they were talking about when they first start discovering them that they were really actually concerned that there was a war going on in space then they recognize that all these explosions were happening all day long and they thought there was a war going on in the cosmos which is really fast cuz I think this is like in a way it's kind of surprising that we haven't seen evidence of that happening already right

I mean when I wrote my peace about the Fermi Paradox which is why don't we have evidence of aliens already my solution is basically well most species that are intelligent that invent technology get wrapped up in video games and virtual reality and sex technology and that it just distracts them and they kind of dropped the ball on

I staying alive and exploring everything and I think it's still quite likely to that happens to most intelligent species that they just kind of disappear off their own butt holes without or they create some sort of an artificial life-form it's far more advanced than anything that biological and has no desire need or no instincts to reproduce a few if we could have said this too many times that I think that we are essentially some sort of 8

some sort of a electronic caterpillar that gives birth to a technological butterfly and we're making a cocoon right now we don't know what we're doing and we're about to create artificial life and they were doing it through intense desire for Innovation consoling want newer better things whether it's televisions and cars our phones were never like that let's just stop here never the desires always towards every fill in the time. We want a new version a better version with improvements and we keep getting those and this is what fuels in many ways it it feels our desire for materialism of materialism invited is embodied by technological innovation which you're always wanting this when you get past Jewels you always want the newest greatest Innovations

I didn't get a certain point manatees going to have to

bite the bullet and say we should plan which Innovations come first what happens next and we might even have to have like regulation or social taboos that say we really shouldn't go down that path until we do this other thing first that makes us ready to do that thing in a safer more rational or ethical that's a big word right rational like we're not really rational and competitions especially when it's dealing with different countries that have different human rights laws and standards of behavior and thinking

what is the problem with regulating like artificial intelligence is how do you get China to play ball

well they're going to do it and Russia to remember doing it as a threat cuz they are smart and organized and future-oriented and they can do long-term planning and I mean so so far Advanced that word this government rather is trying to keep the best phones from China from getting to America

yeah I mean Huawei

probably have some pretty close links to the Chinese military has always on top back doors that allow the Chinese to learn a lot about Americans and our culture in our communication

that's actually more of a concern to me then like

military spying in the strict sense cuz I think

China has so many people working on cyber warfare that we probably don't even have any idea what their capabilities are but I think if they have insight into like here's the American psyche and here's how their political thinking works it will be quite a bit easier to kind of manipulate

in terms of R geopolitics

because we don't have anything analogous I think we're

like is the Pentagon trying to figure out how could we not judge Chinese social media use in our interest

I'd be surprised if they're doing it well but what's fascinating is Google's take on China is that they're willing to censor video or internet searches because they feel like if they don't change just going to copy the technology do it anyway and so this way at least they're in there my boy that's a sketchy way of sort of

absolving yourself of any bad feelings about censorship you're contributing to censorship government-issued censorship because you want to control the market and we're going well you know I can't Google turn on square you literally can't Google Tiananmen Square

it seems like there's a huge difference between China's authoritarian regime in the American political system

but I think they're not quite as different as a lot of folks think like if you talk to

Chinese academics about like what can you research what can you not research

like they have different constraints in Americans do but on at the pragmatic level

there are certain topics that they can address that we can't and vice versa so it's not like there's just one dimension of freedom and we're better than them on on every aspect of it

and again I think American citizens have no idea how

restricted American Sciences are an in kind of what we're allowed to study over let's talk about what you can get grants and approval for and is that the same thing as well as effectively the same thing because you if you don't have any funding you're not going to do this you can't do science without money

and in fact

like if I was starting my career again at this point I wouldn't go into Academia if I wanted to understand human behavior I would go work for Facebook or Google because they have much more data about human behavior then I could ever get as a scientist

are they doing that I'm sure they're doing it but we don't know what they're finding cuz they don't publish Journal papers it's all it's all commercial secrets

so what I'm sure that like

Facebook understands a lot more about social psychology than social psychology does

at this point realize how could they not they have like 1.2 billion people interacting socially regularly and a date of mine to hell out of that for commercial purposes publishing things are they sharing this information don't turn on all I'm sure it's all internal internal publishing things

I don't know that's the thing it's just a little bit alarming when this state-of-the-art and understanding behavior isn't public

that is alarming

and then Mark Zuckerberg might be a robot to write everybody's worried about that spot we played many times video of him drinking water drinks water like that

crazy little fuck

it's a just kidding Mark don't believe my account I think that we're we're looking at in terms of like Google and Facebook and Twitter and even YouTube we're looking at these in normous organizations that I don't think they had any idea what they were going to be you know and I really protect me feel that way about Twitter

when Twitter first started out do you remember how it used to be like you would use like you're at like at Jeffrey Miller is enjoying a cup of coffee you would talk about yourself in the third person it was really weird you know that Jamie Vernon is going to the movies and that's how people talk to the early days of twin a phone that's one of the reason I developed a 2007 or 6 when it started so it was developed for group texting so you could share what you were doing with a group of your friends it was for I opened it so that more people can follow if you wanted to and then celebrities jumped on and then it ran they like it started adding the ability of people just start doing at Joe Rogan so they like out of the ability to the click that and share it and tag it so weird about it now now it's a vehicle for the president to threaten other countries

it and it is. It's the global public forum and particularly in America it is to the Public Square where everyone shares ideas and Facebook is you just can write too much I can't keep up with you bro and I liked it the really really ridiculous people who just paragraph after paragraph of run-on sentences with no no editing at all

yeah it's a lot about

here's a very long story about my most recent emotional trauma or I don't know if anybody ever is like having a breakup or divorce on Facebook and I got home and now I'm going to have to listen to stop for a few months yeah and then they reach out hoping some people say it's going to be okay Mark everything's fine who's on you going to forget about her eventually

HSN people keep going back to who's left comment you know maybe she liked it maybe she changed her mind

blue

I mean it is very kind of funny and interesting and nobody predicted 15 years ago exactly how humans would make use of this new technology is talking about Twitter is going to radically transform the way that science operates for example news of like failed replications will beef spread within 3 days to everybody in a field and anybody who does scientific misconduct will be

suddenly like pushed out within a week or a new result will be shared

globally within 24 hours nobody was thinking about that so there's like science Twitter politics Twitter entertainment Twitter

and they've all kind of changed the game and their respective fields

and we didn't understand human nature well enough to predict how people would actually use the stuff

did we did just didn't see it coming either me no one ever would I remember when Ashton Kutcher was in some sort of a race with someone else I want to see to get to a million followers wasn't like a million and everybody thought that's crazy have a million followers

I don't think he's on Twitter anymore he's not but his account is hilarious like a production company now or something and now what Katy Perry has like a hundred 20 millimeter something something saying and then you got to go to Instagram this problem bigger than

oh wow Vermillion look at that Twitter race to a million what years at 9 wow Twitter race to a million followers can Kutcher beat CNN and Spears that's hilarious not even knew what it meant back then

so I mean with the virtual reality or the neuralink right we're going to have those things will probably have a bigger impact on culture and Society even enjoyed it and still people I kind of just sleep walking into that that world

sleepwalking with a few hesitant observers on the outside warning like almost like standing back like watching someone play with fireworks like okay hey do you know what's going to happen when you light that garbage can on fire it's filled with dynamite

and the legal issues the privacy issues that in the impact on relationships

okay so like we train a lot of PhD in Clinical Psychology in my department and a lot of them are going to deal with people and their relationships in the marriages and the conflicts arguments and whatever are we training them for future world where they're going to have to deal with sex bots in virtual reality end

new forms of social media and

new kinds of basically telepathy that are far in advance of human language know or not but that's that's the world that they're going to spend their professional lives in is it similar in some ways and Jamie you could speak to this you were trained as an audio engineer and now everything's like all the software that was available when you were learning he's just useless now but honestly wasn't even YouTube when I went to school so a lot of the if anyone has questions now you can learn dive almost everything I learned in the year program I had in a week

if you needed to you just look at the Hands-On application touching the stuff but yeah but people that went to school for video editing and all the others different systems detailed detailed from anyone you want to watch now most because they haven't had like the master class you could learn screenwriting from Aaron Sorkin Direct in from and then in terms of financial mean did the amount of financial strain that getting the traditional education puts on people and they get out of school or saddled with his debt that is also you can't even absolve it if you declare bankruptcy which is kind of hilarious you think of the dirty shit that Banks dude Wall Street does and all the risks they take and all the chaos that they have created from their shity decisions that affect the entire economy and their absolved

but yet some kid who wanted to get a gender studies degree

canelo's a quarter million dollars some fucking half-assed Michigan University

I think it's unconscionable terrible I mean I feel really more like conflicted about working in an industry that I think it is pretty exploitive in a lot of ways what what's the stance that you take mean if if a kid comes to you and says you know I don't know what to do here

I generally The Stance I take

so in a way I'm I'm lucky cuz I work at a large state public university and tuition is really pretty you want to say which one is of him Universe University of New Mexico and it's great we serve 40,000 students and we charge very very little tuition money compared to most places cuz it's state-subsidized and if you keep up a certain grade point average it's about as close to 3 as you can you can get in America

so I don't feel like we're as I can only explain it as if I was like teaching at Middlebury College or Yale or whatever

but still

nobody grabs come to me and they go what what should I learn what should I major in what classes should I take the only real advice I can give is like take stuff that's going to be useful in your life your personal life no matter what career you do so you should take my human sexuality class cuz you'll probably be a sexual being for the rest your life you'll be in relationships of some sort or another you should learn about politics you should learn about the history of civilization you should learn about animal behavior and biology and and all that stuff but don't expect that like you can major in pharmacy

and then get a job as a pharmacist that makes 100K out of the gate because that might be automated

don't assume you can go to law school and you'll make Bank like your dad did because a lot of that like document discoveries being automated

don't assume you're going to be a surgeon cuz that might be robots.

So I just say you should try to get a classical liberal arts education that the equips you

as a citizen and as a person and as a graphical being the future proof way to do it

and even then there's a distinct possibility that this education or a superior version of it will be available through some new unfound or soon-to-be discovered form yeah

and just expect that you will if you say curious throughout your life you'll be able to learn about as much you know whenever you

46 year is going forward as you learned in this four to six years of college that's what's interesting is that no one really thinks of University education is being something that equips you for life that you're you're learning so that you can just your you just educating yourself and sort of make your mind more available possibilities knob turns and causes and effects and just just before your own edification that that's this is not a consideration people think I need a career I'm going to go to college for 4 years when I get out I want a kick-ass job cuz I want to buy a Lexus or whatever it is my favorite students honestly you're the mature students it's the bats got a couple tours in Iraq or Afghanistan and come back to college and I have life experience and they're like here because they really want to learn not cuz the parents think it's the right thing to do or even in my human sexuality class I got

grandparents in their 60s and 70s sometimes really yeah they're great because they've actually had like 50 or marriages so they knows a little something about wow you know psychology and it's not for their career it's not for the state as its cuz they really want to be there and they want to learn but also Imagine they're not as filled with tanks as a 18 year old first escape from the family nest and it's not understanding what to do with her freedom and so many distractions they're there just an educated themselves

yeah they're at their your last neurotic they're more confident

they call me out on my bullshyt sometimes today

well the horrifying thing now of if you're teaching a class is you can make a factual claim and any student can check it on on Wikipedia volume to 20 rolls won't raise their hand go that's wrong but the grandmas will as well

Okay so

there was a book back in 99 called the technology of orgasm that made the claim that vibrators were first invented in the Victorian era the lady 1800 to help doctors bring their female patients to orgasm to cure quote hysteria that was sort of accepted as oh yeah that's a good historical analysis of that situation and then that got totally debunked in the last few months by other historians look at the last few months I've been telling people that I had what's the reality they didn't really doc I didn't think Bank near Milton's is no evidence at all that was going on if you think the girls would want to let go if there was a place we can go or the doctor definitely knew how to work it and give you an orgasm there be a lot around the block

frustrated ladies you would think it would have left it in her imprint I would have not justify why would it stop why would the doctor say you know what this business is just too goddamn lucrative my hands are tired closing shop I can't even type anymore

and the women are like the name of the author of that it even got made into a movie hysteria right the job nobody wanted the book oh yeah there we go

I thought this might be the block I don't know yeah I think that's sort of like that killer sperm theory that people still to this day recite even though there's no evidence whatsoever that sperm has any other

function other than impregnating an egg that's a big one sperm Baker and Bella's back in the early 90s and those guys are assholes it was a beautiful Theory but like nobody could replicate it and it just didn't work will Pac-Man sperm have their attack another sperm right they killed at what Kamikaze sperm Reddit I don't know about that how small are sperm alot of room in there for other functions like how they even getting those other sperm killing them like what's what are they using that you have acid like the alien when they doing they rotten to the IDS

they have an acrosome reaction like there is a tiny little Warhead that like how warm it the Hell Bound well it's some enzymes that are pretty good at penetrating digesting

but yeah that's an example of urban myth

almost Urban meth published I mean at the time it was possible but it kind of got defunct fairly quickly so just was a sort of just a sensational

turn article that someone wrote the book that they did I just say hey

let's just fake this in order to sell a lot of books and get people excited about our work I don't think they faked it I think

they make the slightly over sold it but they're like they did have some proper Journal paper Publications that were pure reviewed and that made sense at the time and like I used to teach that stuff cuz I'm saved it how do you teach it like what what was the was the conventional way of describing this

conventional story was

people think we evolved to be in monogamous long-term parabens but here is some evidence that humans do extra pair copulation is that they sometimes go outside the relationship

if that happens then there's occasional sperm competition where a woman mates with more than one guy during one off of the 40 cycle so that potentially

ejaculate from two different guys could be in a reproductive tract competing to fertilize same egg

if that happens the sperm would be under selection to be good at

being fast fighting off the other sperm making the reproductive tract more hostile with any guy comes after you at cetera cetera so it's kind of like a way of challenging the Assumption of monogamous mating and pointing out women have this sexual Freedom an agency that was not fully recognized and the result is men have to compete more like not just physically and not just for State Us Bay didn't even if this kind of biochemical level

and it all made sense right we could have been that species but as it turned out

the rates of extra pair copulation or infidelity or actually pretty low and a lot of societies

like it's not like 20% of kids are Sorry by some guy other than their dad it's like mostly well under two or three percent button in comparison to win all the stuff involved we could be talking about humans of 50 60 thousand years ago which is a totally different ball game it is different

if we

been a species with like a lot of sperm competition then are testicles would be as big as Kim testicles that's was interesting right there's a direct correlation between the number of promiscuous females in the size of the testicles the mail yeah which is why gorillas have little tiny dicks is dominating

I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't try to seduce some other off of bad idea

I mean crazy that something grew to be so strong so powerful with giant fangs and it only needs like stalks of grass and broccoli and shit yeah

so there's a there's a lot of these little things in Psychology these Urban myths that get

learn by professors in grad school and never really tested and then passed on

and now that whole house of cards has been tumbling down the last couple of years we're like almost everything that was taught in his social psychology course now

turns out to be kind of bullshit and not like what other examples

the idea that you can use a implicit association test or I-80 to sort of register how sexist erases somebody is right that was a big

exciting thing that social psychologist thought that they discovered that you can give someone this kind of computer test that measures word associations and that kind of determine like how secretly sexist are you

and that turned into whole industry of giving these tests everybody in corporations to sort of assess and are you secretly sexist and to sort of wag finger at them and say see you squirt positive on this test that means you really are secretly sexist and therefore you need training and that's the industry this is what happened with Starbucks write the few months ago when they had that

issue with the black guys and in the Starbucks and Starbucks didn't handle that well and then there is public blowback and Starbucks went okay we're going to do implicit Association training for all of our staff Nationwide

and all of us in psychology were like

wait but you you guys know that that was all defunct like a couple years ago it's it's all nonsense so it's it's a PR move but but it's not science-based it sounds signs based on in anybody who's osabi consumer will be able to like Google that stop and see oh it's it's nonsense implicit bias training still being used right and some weaknesses and it's all horseshit

so what is the method like say if you ran Corporation and be like hey everybody Jeff is going to come in and teach us how not to be racist you might be racist not even know it and Jeff is going to show you how

I don't really know what to do in implicit bias training I know that they typically will give everybody one of these implicit association test that purports to show that you have issues and you do have hidden by a psych what would be like a question on one of these tests it's like Sensations

basically are you faster to associate this

stigmatized group with this negative word then you are to associate them with a positive word I need to measure reaction time so the body pressing you're pushing your saying words flash on screens and you pushing buttons and

the subtle differences in reaction speed to like the good versus bad associations are supposed to map like your attitude towards the group one question

and

it's a it's a reliable effect apartment is a dozen actually predict real sex as behavior in real life or races favor so so how did it get past the initial stages the point was implemented

social psychology is just very politically correct virtually everybody in it is pretty far left and if you're conservative or Centrist you

pretty quickly got driven out of it oh yeah so Center Steven

well we have pretty good data now and like clinical affiliations of people in different fields

and in Psychology it's at least like 10 or 15 to 1 liberal to conservative

why you think that is more than indoctrination the Walled Garden of Academia

I think it's partly that but I think it's also like there is

pretty over hostility to

Centris conservative Libertarians where you just kind of get these signals like if you start grad school that

whatever if you saw this other students hey do you want to go to the shooting range or do you want to go hunting or let's talk about politics and if you're on the wrong side of

what's considered normal then you're made to feel pretty uncomfortable and you'll probably just need to leave grad school and go to hell with that I'm going to be

lawyer entrepreneur whatever so just the hostility Force if you buy a tribal environment

what was the source of that and it seems like

if you're going to do real social experiment of work if you really going to try to understand human behavior it's really got to be done objectively to to really get the actual raw data to to really be able to do scientific work where you're explaining things and trying to gauge cause and effect and origins of thought and behavior patterns have to do it really objectively the same way you would do mathematics that you have to really look at it cautiously and get your data points in order and if you doing real good work

you would think that you would be more of an inclination to do good work then it would be to appease whatever tribe you belong to

you would hope so but take political psychology for example where the whole point is to understand how people think about politics and moral issues there's a huge liberal bias in Clinical Psychology and you would think they would have corrected that and said you know what it's a maybe we're missing something by not like we have a conference of 500 people and there's not a single libertarian here or whatever and they never self-corrected like that they just assumed well we're all well-intentioned we're all smart so we're going to be able to check our own biases and they completely failed to do that so

you have all these measures of like political attitudes invented by leftists

that kind of demon eyes conservatives or or Centrist as basically being

mentally ill or stupid or whatever I'm kind of a Centrist libertarian with like a complicated Patchwork of a fuse like I'd be considered extremely far left on certain things and pretty far right on on other things

I'm pro-gun rights on pretty cautious about immigration

on Pro economic freedom I don't want a big expensive state that has high tax burdens and

I'm in complicated ways kind of profoundly values and pro natalist and like I think

long-term relationships are good not necessarily conventional ones but I I'm pretty concerned about Society figuring out a way to make it

possible for ordinary folks to have long-term relationships and raise families

isn't it fascinating that that's a right-wing thing

wouldn't you think that

something that would encourage families like the universal wouldn't be tribal me and you would think that something that would encourage long-term relationships and monogamous pair bonding and people getting together and working out long-term solutions to keep a family together

tubby tubby good for everybody I mean that seems like a lot for anything to the left is very concerned about environmental sustainability. Concerned about what you call civilisational sustainability or family sustainability

and I don't totally understand why but you tend to get the right thinking how is this going to affect my great-grandkids or allow me to have any on the left is more like houses going to affect

harp seals and polar bear bear is in $100

and

one should sort of imply the other but

hence being a Centrist yeah that's being a Centrist in like

it's a weird thing like when you try to reach a conclusion about a particular political issue based on what you think is making the facts and the evidence in the good arguments

and then you do that for each issue

separately rather than doing kind of tribal affiliation signaling it's very very confusing to people

cuz I like how can you be like Pro cannabis legalization if you're also Pro guns or how can you be like open to polyamory if you're also concerned about long-term family stability or whatever

it's like that's just because of the issues I looked into that's

the end I ended up supporting does this go back to most people really don't have the time to form these opinions or become informed on these opinions instead they just sort of adopt a predetermined patterns of behavior that seems to be the tribe that they most affiliate with so this site this way alright there's a conglomeration of opinions I'm just going to accept these opinions absolutely so strange that we have 2 very clear sides this left right I mean we even have it represented by blue and red I mean this goes back to the Korean version of the yin-yang you know in the Korean flag they have that yin yang but it's instead of white and black it's red and blue. That is what it is it's these these opposites that work together in harmony that's

our society is seems to be some sort of a natural system that we gravitate towards yeah I'm people police it it's not like everyone just want to choose as one side of the other and then they go well I guess it makes sense if you believe the last about issue a should also believe the last about issues BC through Z if you deviate you got punched people use the term we to like we've got to win the house I heard that you know we've got to win the Senate it's it's basically like the Raiders we got to get to the Superbowl

I mean it is very

tribal but I mean it's weird because when if you're in a literal tribe you have your territory and your resources and your your mates that you're defending and the other Prime on the other side of the Hill has their Territory Resources made some kids and you actually there is a little bit of a zero-sum conflict but if you're all in the same Epping country together

and you all paying taxes to the same Authority and you're all partaking in the same economy and you're all wrestling in the same public sphere of the Netflix that you watch and the Twitter you're engaged with

it's it should be more positive sound than that what is why I wanted to ask you this as an evolutionary psychologist is this and your mercy far more aware of this than the average person does this just go back to the way the human brain developed when we were living in small tribes and that there's a sin herent need for an US versus them mentality that keeps us moving yeah I think so

you know the people of thought the most deeply about this like I'm a big fan of Jonathan Heights work in the Righteous Mind and the way he kind of analyzes this stuff

I think it'll be quite hard to escape

the tribal thinking but we have we have escaped at with respect to a lot of issues right where we really did did reach him oral Common Grounds like we all kind of sad o'shit slavery was bad women should be able to vote

we should try to reduce the risk of nuclear war right so on some really big issues we have succeeded pretty well in

kind of setting aside the tribalism in the problem now is it's just so many issues that are coming out of so fast that we don't have time to reach.

Social aqualibrium on on and off of them quickly enough this is what fascinates me by augmented reality and things like neuralink something it's going to accentuate the the ability in the power of the human mind where we're going to be able to take any consideration all these things in a much like Elan term will have more bandwidth to work on them they just I think the more I think about it I think that this just Quagmire of civilization is so many different things that were conflicted about that really a lot of it boils down to a lack of time a lack of time and I lack of also training and how to think one of the things that's most disturbing about education particularly lower education is that no one ever tells you how to think they give you information but they don't tell you now here's a tricks your brain is playing on you like this is why you think certain way

is this is if you're lucky if you're really lucky someone teaches you about discipline they teach you about resistance in about apathy and about

about crastination and all these different games you can buy in a plan you and just that alone will give you the ability to work through things and get more stuff done but get discussed so most the time you're just getting boring information stuffed in your fucking face and you barely pay attention to it enough to pass the test and as soon as the test is over you forget everything you learned

does he really want to just memorize it

and it wouldn't take that long to learn some of the top dozen rationality hacks that like the rationalist community or the effective altruism Community are very very good at using an teaching like just the idea of Steel Manning an argument weary you develop the ability to State the strongest possible version of your opponent's argument in a way that they would go

you said that even better than I could say awesome that means you really understand me even if you disagree with that that's a good term to steal man so strong

and if we just taught you know kids in high school how to do that I think that would go a long way towards

being able to have these these travel. Logs

or just that being able to think quantitatively about protocol and policy issues like how many people are affected how are they affected how much would it cost to fix how do we know what the best way to do it is

rather than just diving straight for the emotional argument

I think that would help a lot but

is it really in anyone's vested interest to teach.

And do the current

stock of members of the public school teachers unions really have the ability or interest to teach that seems like something they're going to have to learn online to augment their traditional education

so I can tell you to have like a virtual reality system where kid could go into it and argue about some issue like gun rights for abortion or immigration and some a I was sort of argue against summer pick out their arguments or go convince me of your position and somehow doesn't make it interesting that make it fun like they

whatever make it up you know make it you're arguing with Rick and Morty

that is a one of the big issues with learning things is making things fun making things somehow or another enthralling and captivating something something that you actually want to absorb and it's one of the great arguments about video games and

one of the more interesting things about the previous generations sort of dismissal of video games is that the dismissal was at one point in time all you're just wasting your time and now that that dismissal doesn't necessarily hold water because just like professional golfers professional video game players now make enormous sums of money so it's gotten to this place where oh no this is a viable career and perhaps you should even be taking your kid to coaching and and learning strategy and learning all these various applications that allow you to get better at these things it cuz there's a real career in this and I mean try telling that to your grandpa hey I'm going to play what's the what's the game they play for the most money today

fortnite probably for the big one that you going to want to be a professional fortnite player do was take the fuck out of here do you want me to be a professional golfer how good are you Johnny you know I want to be the next Tiger Woods well my cohort a lot of other I talk to a lot about school or post office yeah we'll go

most of our understanding about the history of technology unlike world affairs and economics comes from playing that game really yeah I never played it how's it work is it a one of those role-playing game you start out in like the Dark Ages and you progressed through like Bronze Age Iron Age railroads and then eventually you like colonize Alpha Centauri again at the computer or other humans turn based strategy game against the computer

but you kind of learn the whole technology tree and what everything's called and what followed What and God I hope synmar got it right more or less but it was a much more compelling way to learn all that then like taking whatever your penis tree if he right I would imagine that's incredibly immersive like how how could they do something like that the new discovery mode turns on Assassin's Creed Origins is there an interactive history lesson so I think should Egypt I believe is what they do hear things like deep detail to take all the list of shooting mat shooting with stabbing and killing the people just walk you through eggs in Egypt Cairo people die so you can either have a Graphic or not graphic is that the idea

I need to see this okay yeah I mean that would be the best way to teach people things to make some sort of interactive environment especially virtual where you could go there and experience it and I mean I don't know if you've messed around with any of the HTC Vive things I was this year

well hello this is part of the game but this is not the actual game this is like a mode they did to teach kids because they had all of this technology available so they said you know what just get an aerator at some audio clips making mode and even have it the way it was originally built the Great Pyramid with the Limestone still attached for the most part this is a 20-minute video sisters like this is real deep detail man the best Graham Hancock you know but you're the guy there and you're in a third-person position wow this is just this particular part they're going to keep doing this as this Assassin's Creed 3 all sorts of different modes of History to the like Renaissance Rome

Spain all sorts of different areas and now that the to return this on it's going to ramp up probably seems like a really good idea and terms of getting kids excited about learning things having some sort of an interactive game just came up gamify every topic

education is the kind of tech that we use is several steps behind the state-of-the-art in Hollywood special effects or documentaries or this this kind of game so soon as I kind of disappointed when they come to class and it's like college is really expensive and it's really retrograde in terms of the tech quality so why

why are we here

we should be on the Forefront right it should be possible to go to your State University and see awesome game of 5 interactive stuff that you don't have access to it home everything is changing so fast and in order for the curriculum to keep up with modern technology it would have to revamp every year I mean a lot of content we teach is

pretty old actually like the key ideas and evolutionary biology many of them go back 50 or a hundred years

key ideas in animal behavior or paleontology or

Anthropologie it's not like those get updated that fast it's just what the way you can present them technically

Workwear not competitive

and that's embarrassing

is there a way to change that or is that that seems almost insurmountable without a complete overhaul the system I think you need a totally different kind of University and credential that's

backed by a significant amount of capital in that stack non-technological Innovative and it's very on PC in terms of what it teaches and how it teaches you think it's possible that would come along and compete with the standard yes yeah I think it's inevitable that that will happen and that's probably go to be with bankruptcy and I think it's going to eat our lunch

what do you how do you feel about that though as a person who makes their living do I would also you write books and I'd be happy to jump ship and go do that hundreds of thousands or millions of people rather than 200 at a time that's essentially what Jordan Peterson is doing exactly. He's not doing it through a virtual thing he's doing it through video lectures and physical lectures it's really fascinating to see the reaction to him and now to Sam Harris is doing this as well and put not the videos but he's definitely doing the the live sort of the performances and know who have ever thought that they would be a place where public intellectuals would go and 5,000 people would sell out like that and go to see them like they would go to see fucking Kevin Hart or something it's crazy

well in 01 Alfred Kinsey for started doing a sex surveys and he would go around the country giving lectures like he filled up a 4000 person stadium in and UC Berkeley just presenting the first real date on human sexuality back in late 40s and so there was why because there's a real hunger for that because it was something students couldn't get anywhere else and the same was true back in the 1800s when you had a famous author is touring America like Mark Twain or the founder stand-up comedy

right and they would use humor

like Jordan Peterson Sam Harris you

and they would speak in the register of the people not pretentious I could I make jargon Sam is surprise me funny we were talking I said dude you're really funny like those those little side notes and aside you throw out a little funny quips like this like stand-up comedy type stuff when someone will say something like like even with you there you guys were talking about polyamory he threw some sort of a joke. How's that working out now it's a very dry humor and yeah so I don't know why but that makes it more palatable spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down you know this it fascinating technology in terms of video games is going to help you absorb information about ancient Egypt and humor is going to help just make the time go by better and make the whole experience less flat

so I think I think that's the future and I think within 10 years a lot of young people are just going to realize

if I can actually learn more from some alternative

system some franchise of really good game of hide and structuring + great presenter is about the sense of humor and are smart and any kind of like Heather a Dachshund and edgy they're going to talk to that that the main thing is that

business that franchise would have to provide a credential that actually separates them from people who don't have it and that predicts performance in companies are in the future right cuz that's the main function of the University right now is it it's this

credential signaling system

and if somebody figures out a way to

make it so that like if you've got a degree from this

whatever Sam Harris University that that is really a better predictor of doing well in a job or marriage right then yell degree

then suddenly the whole business model changes for universities what was really fast anyway you think about the history of education is that our ideas about these gigantic institutions whether it's Yale or Harvard is that they've been long established in Long proven and know that mean before that is really the only have a certain amount of years were these things were even a real thing yeah I mean the idea that you have a teaching institution it's also a major research institution really only goes back to post World War II like before World War was basically an elite finishing school it wasn't a research power

so that whole system that we think of is being ancient is actually just less than a hundred several decades wow

yeah I think you're probably right I think the new things going to eat the lunch it's almost like they're setting themselves up with some of the more ridiculous of preposterous protest that go on whether they are just trying to silence discussion and even with people like Christina Hoff Sommers who's very reasonable and called herself a factual feminist and they want to come over or not see it's like there's no there's no wiggle room you are a 1 or a 0 you are black or white you are evil or good and that's it and this inclination towards silencing people deplatforming screaming them down halting them and getting them out who decides who decides who's correct and the only way for people to get an accurate assessment of who's giving the right information is to have a debate but I have a real debate like a real debate were people allowed to express themselves without people in the audience shaking

hours of coins and and all the nonsense and setting off fire alarms and all these things that these children and I called children because they're behaving like children are celebrating you know I'm I'm sure you're aware what happened at Evergreen and now Evergreens Evergreen State University where Bret Weinstein had you know his horrible experience with if you don't know the story I'll give you a brief synopsis that they had a day of absence where it used to be that people of color would stay home so that you would miss them and then he decided to turn around and make white people stay home make them for some if you didn't do it you're racist he said that's crazy like you guys are being racist and they shouted him down and they shut the school down and

he want a half million dollars in a lawsuit and now the school's most recent enrollment from the freshman class is only 300 people which is crazy. The parents notice to students notice and universities are so complacent they think a weekend we can do any amount of this and the customers will still come and they're the wrong as soon as there's a viable alternative or somebody can get a credential that means something and it's cheaper and better and they learn more and it's more engaging

that whole universities acting stupid about that and and

you're not denying free speech in denying real debate that's the existential threat to them that's what's going to Blindside that's what's going to kill their tuition it's stunning how Little Resistance or is that the everyone knows that the only way to find out whose ideas are more more well-thought-out more valid more factual the only way to set find that out is to have people discuss things together and two for you to be able to make an assessment based on the facts do it in real time and based on who was who formed the more compelling argument was more reasonable who's who's who's addressing all the flaws in the problems with both sides of this and coming up with a reasonable conclusion the only way to do that is discourse we all know that we've known that forever but but somehow or another in higher universities in higher education centers this is where there

shutting this stuff down and they want to let you know whatever it whether it's Ben Shapiro speaking or whoever it is it speaking they scream at them they want to I want to break Windows they want to caught you know call racist or whatever they want to call him

stunning I'm either way I think of it is like

stand up comedy I love and and you know you do and the stuff you can say when you're on stage doing stand-up comedy University should be at least that open like I should be able to lecture in a way that goes even a little bit edgier than most stand-up comedy could go politically intellectually ideologically challenged the thoughts challenge their thoughts so University should be like the inner sanctum of intellectual Freedom compared to which everything else is more restrained

and we're kind of the opposite

I know a few academics ago who actually are like amateur stand-up comedians and it's so liberating to them to be able to get up on stage and say what they really think they use fake names

someone know but

they're kind of protected by like the social norms of Comedy right like you know you're not supposed to really take it very seriously

but we're so far from that

and

you know in physics it doesn't matter that much cuz it's not like there's any aspects of quantum mechanics that are that intellectually edgy but man in psychology and social sciences and Behavioral Sciences in in protocol science it's really important to be able to be provocative and authentic

and we can't in America at the moment

well which is really what's going to set up whatever is coming next it's going to offer some sort of a new new pathway new Avenue that's not restricted much like what what you're seeing with podcasts and blogs and in in comparison to or YouTube videos in comparison to what you getting on regular network television me it was network television and cable was more edgy alternative and then there was pay cable like HBO, Colorado sell breast you know that got none of your not here in it but then it became Netflix which is total nother level and then the internet's a wild west and they want you to go back to NBC in the 1970s do you like no not going to do it not going to pretend University seem to be stuck

yeah I think universities are like NBC Circa 1975 right where the like of this cable stuff that's not really going to matter and then over this internet but the Netflix of education is coming and it's it's going to be incredibly disruptive

and I hope that the academic friends and colleagues I have we're good and and open-minded are ready to jump ship

ultimate leader Educators whatever form it is that what their career is is there an educator just like Kyle Dunnigan is a comedian he takes on a new form with this new technology knee becomes a comedian using face swapping technology these educators are going to recognize that the landscape has changed and there's got to be some sort of a new way of Distributing information yeah I can go to academics or like just ordinary humans with a curiosity turned out to 11 and who have a passion for discovering new ideas and then sharing them with people and we don't really care how we do that we will do it through lectures or writing books or writing articles or podcast whatever whatever works the best have you thought about starting a podcast

well you know I did a podcast with Tucker Max couple years ago The Mating grounds where it was sort of related to our matebook that was dating advice for young single guys but it was really nice it wasn't really well it was figure out what women authentic we actually want and then try to transform yourself in that direction so you're better boyfriend what do they want

women want guys who are

well informed and know about the world and ambitious and capable capability is the main thing like competency just in as many demands as possible they want guys who were in like reasonably good physical shape and good mental health and who can strike the right balance between being kind of nice and agreeable and kind but also being dominant and assertive and and kind of high-status if that's too much to ask you become a male feminist

I just gravel just bend the knee bend the knee

so

you know when I teach him and sexuality I kind of emphasize this the students that there's a lot you can do to make yourself more attractive to whoever you want to attract it you don't it's not a limited by what traits are born with boots fashion is the difference in what a man is attracted to versus what's a woman is attracted to and this is something that we just don't like to admit that there's a great deal of difference when it comes to heterosexuals at least yeah there's a lot of difference when it comes to short-term mating like what men want if it's the one that said vs. what women want a long-term mating like who people choose for marriage there's actually quite a bit of convergence there like everybody wants someone who's mentally healthy unreliable and smart and kind would make like would pick the kids up on time from school at cetera and funny funny really important talked about the difference between

woman who is beautiful verse woman is hot and what hot does is gives you the opportunity to spread your jeans with very little responsibility so a one night stand from a girl who's hot you don't have to mate and you don't have to like Court her get her to love you show your virtue earn her respect now you just bang her in the park like that that's hot versus someone who's beautiful who you really go out of your way to maybe even be a better person so they could track that person if you fall in love with someone you want to be a better person for them if it has fascinated there are these two choices and I never thought about it till he brought it up but they're essentially ways to distribute your DNA that there's Pathways one of them is through long-term bonding and you want a stable reliable

woman who has a lot of self respect who chooses you makes you feel good to choose you and the other one's a freak but the fact that all different kinds of people exist with all the different mating strategies shows did each of those strategies historically and evolutionarily has worked like it's been a valid strategy cuz there wouldn't be

like promiscuous men or women if that hadn't been something that worked sure right there also wouldn't be long-term Paramon did you know that only people with that done worked so I think it's silly when people are sort of dissing each other's mating strategies as if while there's one proper way and then all the other ways of degenerate or reactionary or whatever well the other mating strategies produce fucked up kids. The hot one when you're not going to see the kids you can develop a mess of a child and that's the ones that used to sell cars I mean but each fucked up by what standard so well are you shoes

I think a lot of that is just the way of kind of shaming these these other mating strategies could you mean well of course

you got a little bit of circular Logic for example where you say

this mating strategy for example at save a high degree of promiscuity he said that's bad why because it leads to offspring who internet promiscuous and then you call it the cycle of abuse or daddy issues or whatever but is that a promiscuous thing or is it just a longing for both a father and a mother and a loneliness in a vulnerability that seems to come with being The Offspring of a single mother

most people agree that that's not the ideal situation but it does produce unique people which is really interesting or almost all of my really cool friends came from a fucked-up broken childhood which I don't know what to think about that because I want my children to be comforted and and healthy and never worried about the future but all my friends I grew up in chaotic environments with everyone was poor and fucked up and there's crime and violence and nonsense and Chaos those the cool ones too it's it's such a conundrum as a parent

yeah I mean so like as a scientist you got to look at you know the whole spectrum of meeting in parenting behavior and go evolutionary psychologists you can say

I might have a moralistic reaction to that I might go that's bad but you know what if it actually if what we consider bad is actually the way most of the other 4000 species of mammals do it

then

who are really the weird town was anyway right most mammal families the dads aren't involved it's Single Moms raising Offspring by themselves under harsh conditions and you're not doing parabens right hardly any mammals to powerbombs part from like Givens and

do prosimians likes really small primates

I'm just very hesitant to kind of moralize it and it is it really fair or even accurate to compare ourselves to things and only live to be like 10

me what were talking about enormously complicated emotions far more so because of communication and societal norms and you know the comparison there's so much more involved being person

it's just like if you look back in historically right

premarital sex used to be demonized right and folks used to say well oh my God you had you had one or two lovers before you settle down with your husband that's her and you could produce statistical correlations to say oh look premarital sex is correlated with being lower class or criminal or drug use or whatever like that's all true but then Society move in a direction that said premarital sex is okay but wasn't that really because of birth control because a woman's once once a woman had it ability to control her reproductive system and say it why not just have sex for pleasure and enjoyment because before it was their consequences were so grave especially in poverty like now I'd there's another mouth to feed and now I can't work cuz I have to take care of the babies oh yeah so the technology of contraception made a big difference

used to be thought okay if you're if you're gay or lesbian that is morally degenerated terrible and invalid and you can't possibly have a long-term relationship or a family or whatever and then

we kind of change. Pretty dramatically in the last 20 or 30 years so I just you know as a sex researcher I want people to

be quite cautious about saying that lifestyle is wrong and each other unhealthy and this other lifestyle is better cuz in the air of sex bots Brighton virtual reality deep fakes and whatever

who knows what's going to happen if you have sex at dawn. Did you like it

add very mixed feelings about it what was the negative I don't think it's an accurate description of prehistory prehistoric mating

I think powerbombs Ron really deep and human evolution

but I think I have to sort of ethical ideal polyamory is is okay and it works for some people some of the time discussed a lot I really only kind of came out publicly as being interested in it on the Sam Harris show a few months ago but I'm thinking about writing a book on it next and dumb

it's a very popular thing I mean the number of people who are in open relationships or poly relationships is larger than the number of people are gay or lesbian certain lesbian relationships number of people who were gay or lesbian at the population level is like 2 to 5% betting on surveys and polyamorous relationships probably five to 15% at the moment and it's even higher among you know people in 2:35 or so so this is a new thing it's relatively new and is this just an acceptance of the instincts that people have to be non-monogamous the acceptance of the that the jealousy is holding people back from experiencing different things like

yeah I think it's only in the 90s that you you got

a coherent subculture that said if you're not going to be monogamous here's the

honest ethical open way to do it and it kind of developed a bunch of social norms about how you manage these relationships

in a way that's different from cheating or different from swingers or different from crusty hippie love communes or or prostitute son I mean this is a longer discussion we have time for probably today but as a researcher it's a fascinating culture because it's people who are trying to find ways to kind of pack for jealousy and manage it better and it's also new method of social networking right where

you're not drawing a sharp line between who you are sexually connected to and who you're socially connected to

so people who are into Polly tend to have set of sexual friendship professional networks that are much broader than than a lot of people tend to have that right I think that's actually a little bit more similar to what Christopher Ryan was talking about with sex at dawn

like I think in most prehistoric tribes anybody who wasn't a close relative who was sort of mating age you probably would have had sex with like sooner or later at least once

even if you both had a sort of stable Paramount

and this is probably an incredibly controversial subject at the academic level while when I taught my course on polyamory and open sexuality last year it got a little bit of controversy he said that was smile can in the department

well there was concern about what happens if you know

you got complaints from

legislators there goes again funding down money

but there's a lot of cool research on it there's a lot of interesting psychological issues that it was probably a good way to find the freaks

it was they were wonderful wonderful freaks I mean those guys freak great students and open-minded and you know we talked about the pros and the cons is like

this stuff is really hard to do for this in this in this reason and people will really only succeed at it if they have certain kinds of traits and abilities and communication skills

if they don't they crash and burn and done work so it wasn't just an advocacy class it was also like here's the pros and cons but also as a social friend this is a big deal and if you're going into one of the caring professionals like medicine nursing Social Work clinical psych you down to all better know about this because a lot of people do it

and if you're giving advice to a couple

and they're in an open relationship and you don't even understand what that means or how it works you're going to give bad advice and that's to me kind of professional malpractice it's also sort of in some ways an ongoing experiment in terms of how you know how people bond with each other how how people form Communities In This Is Us in particular with today's climate in today's society with the you know the ability to distribute this information and discuss these things in groups in the different world in terms of just collecting data and in comparing experiences

yeah it's a work-in-progress I mean I ain't nobody who is polyamorous or in an open relationship can pretend that yeah we really know how to make this work very well and here's the best practices and here's the all the the hacks and and anybody can do no work absolutely not at that point it's all so brave to talk about because it immediately puts you into this potential pervert place to talk about sex with more than one person what are you doing taking your reputation what are you doing after having sex I know it's super stigmatized but like

compared to what compared to being a evolutionary psychologists in the first place who does intelligence research or compared to teaching human sexuality or compared to doing two sets of human civilization during a book with Tucker Max I mean it's all that's Turkey right now but I think we we have a professional responsibility you know if your behavioral scientist understand what are people doing out there what is working and what isn't

and how do you make it work better

and the people ignore it I think it's kind of like if you were like a psychologist in the early seventies right when the game lesbian Rights Movement but starting if it's would have said oh God I hope that'll blow over like that. Doesn't deserve research we we we should keep it as a mental disorder and you know that the DSM right

I feel like poly sort of at the same place where

yeah they're reactionary so go that that's just gross and disgusting just like people in you know the early seventies would have said homosexuality is gross and disgusting

but still it's a it's Brave to discuss right now I mean it may very well be like you know what you talk about the gay and lesbian revolution of the 1970s and maybe 40 years from now it's just like that there this this is that normal know who cares but in today's day in age it's

tread carefully right well

somebody's got to research that and talk about it and I think

but people should read sex at dawn by Christopher Ryan but that shouldn't be the final word

about human evolution and polyamory what's another good book on

I mean the ethical slot is a good kind of but it's a it's a little. I think it's the poly Bible for top everybody buys at 5 just to have it on your shelf I have that book sells a billion copies it's done pretty well at there it is the ethical slot Easton and Janet hard right name for a book I'm sad that I never came up with that it it's a it's a good tile

but I don't think there's a good book yeah it's actually Savvy about evolutionary psychology and human sexuality and polyamory and how it's all going to play out in the next 10 years or so in this is why you're kind of funny writing it yourself yeah you know I hope you do man thanks and thanks for coming here a lot of fun in Cleveland oh my God thank you I really appreciate it

I'm Primal poly Primal p o l y and Primal pali.com okay thank you sir

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