#1241 - Sam Harris

February 7, 2019

Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and author of the New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, and The Moral Landscape. His podcast called “Making Sense” is available on iTunes & Stitcher.

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The Joe Rogan Experience

hey man are you listen to your podcast when I did my podcast with Jack first bought was not anticipating the blowback that I received it was running but he would I thought was I was just going to have a conversation with this guy be fun to see what it's like to run this gigantic Network that helps people communicate with me helps people communicate and distribute information worldwide what is it like to start something like that up and have it become what it is like how have you managed to try to keep up with it and what if the headaches pain and apparently people online particular the people the more comment about this all they wanted to know about censorship and that was an issue with me there was a question with me but it became of far is a far bigger question for people online they felt like that I tossed him softball questions

that I didn't press him and then I listen to your podcast and one thing about Jack is very smart guy very nice guy but he talks in a very slow and methodical way when you ask him a question he takes these routes and if you don't want to jump in and press them like you're in this weird situation where is not totally answering your question but he's talking about the same subject that you talk like friends since you brought Louis Farrakhan like how is Louis Farrakhan a good standing on the platform and someone like you know fill in the blank Milo yiannopoulos for Laura Loomer whoever it was he kicked off he never got to that he went around and around and around with you and he recognize this after the podcast I received a lot of blowback he received a lot of blowback so I contacted him and he said he would be more than happy to come back on again and then address all these things and I said okay what I'd like to do is address specific instances of people

uncensored and he said okay what I'll do is I'll bring in someone from the company that's in charge of that stuff so I'm starting to put together a picture of what it's like to be a CEO of something is big and he's also a CEO of square he's runs the cash app is a lot of stuff going on that right so he's obviously busy how much day-to-day involvement does he actually have and who gets censored in why they get censored and how much is he willing to share about that so we're going to find out in the next follow up Podcast but I got accused of everything from being a shill to being a cock being up and there's also an issue that you've managed to avoid wisely so of advertising the cash option advertising on my podcast so because the cash option Advertiser on my podcast right the man had you by the throat and I think that mask all those great questions every cute up the reality is those are the questions I would have asked now that's hard to say cuz no one's going to believe it but those are the questions I was asked and

I try not to be too confrontational with aghast but in hindsight I probably could have pressed more particularly on people like Kathy Griffin calling for doxxing for the picture with the Maga hat on with the Native American there's a quite a few but I noticed that but what was your experience like with it when I have two different interviews because they were time differently on YouTube all the way in which are podcasts are different when they met you stream live I sit on my podcast for at least a week 7 in Jack's case was like 2 weeks before I released it so I did my interview with him before this flurry of interviews with him came out and it was a rolling stone interview that was the only way they may be a Huffington Post interview would come out. They said it was nothing out there so I had no real examples of how he dealt with these questions or have you talked yeah yeah yeah

exam one of the great slow talker so so where it where the groove there but he died I didn't know what his boilerplate was and and how he would he would answer any of these questions and your podcast came out before mine did but mine would mine was before the Covington High School catholic right so the real missed opportunity for me was just a matter of time and I got it because the Covington thing put such a fine point on everything is wrong with Twitter and the way journalism interacts with it right now is it just farted Manju Road of an op-ed in New York Times saying Twitter is destroyed journalism in the end and it was not a crazy out that in fact after the Covington thing and all used in a Kathy Griffin would have been a perfect example to talk about it like we know why she still on if he's calling for the dog saying yeah but I think I had a substantially similar interview with him

you did because he's mr. things one is he's great at sort of pure wedding around sharp pointed question of you know when what is the policy and why why are you applying it in this seemingly disparate way and it seems to skew politically in One Direction all the time right but you are I think you also I did I think you did naturally what we cut him some slack in that he's a CEO of these two corporations he can't be expected to actually know what happened in every one of these micro cases like I think I brought up the case of I think her name is Megan Murphy I mean that I hadn't even heard of her before she has to wear the wrong thing in the transgender space you say something like men or not women right and she got banned and life and you know he obviously

can't know exactly what happened in that case or at least it would be surprising to me if he knew so the fact that he doesn't have his finger on each one of these cases and what the what the rationale wasn't he has this sort of generic answer that what you are seeing you know in public is not necessarily what we're saying and vacuum in virtually every actionable case is not what we're seeing in private with respect to how these people are opening opening multiple accounts and doing seemingly nefarious stuff behind the scenes is true I don't know but I imagine just say that Jack seemed like them and he seemed unusually open to talk about anything I wanted to talk about it so I saw one allegation that got a hold of you is that you know you must have been constrained by piano with the topics you couldn't touch in advance you must have had some agreement with Him in Advance you know it didn't happen with me right now but I should be no discussion whatsoever about what was off limits

nothing and he asked for no it's in my in my case I tell all my guests and it's the difference between you streaming live band and me not I tell him I guess listen if at any point in this interview you put your foot in your mouth or I put my foot in there we can edit it right like we are you I want you I want you to be totally happy with what you say over the next two or three hours so if you have to take something and you know we'll just hide the same as we go now that virtually never happens right and in Jack's case there wasn't even a wrinkled like that so but you know I just recognized as a high wire rack for a lot of these people especially if someone is running to publicly traded companies right and you know I was wondering if item on I said I promise I'm not going to make you smoke a blunt on video and I got it back. I'm so I don't know how you got him but I try to get him so I can even think about it

drinking because it did seem very stiff but I listen to it after the fact and I mean I get from their anticipation why they would be disappointing I just thought it was kind of boring. My podcast with them just wasn't very good I sometimes do too many podcasts and when I sometimes do too many podcast I think I run low on juice and I'm not I don't know I'm not as engaged or I'm not as fired up about it and maybe I just should have definitely should have prepared more for him but I really thought it was just going to be a conversation about what it's like and I thought that would be really easy to do because it's such a unique position to be running something like Twitter but he you know I don't know if he was evasive because he didn't know the things or because you didn't want to talk about the things but there was things like he didn't know exactly why Alex Jones was ultimately band he didn't he couldn't recall or didn't know now is that because he couldn't recall is because you want to talk about

or is it because he didn't remember it I mean I don't I don't know mean you have to have to be inside his head to get that answer. A a very practice wine that he uses to answer these questions and I make about you know I know what it's like to have boilerplate I've been on a book to her and you're just basically going to ask the same questions again again and here he's getting fairly pointed questions about you know where Twitter is going and he's got this is dishonest I just think but it has this amazing ability to close the door to further inquiry because he he gives you the full Maricopa right up front what's the situation with another seemingly asymmetrical Banning of people and he'll say you know yeah we really and me we got to get much better at communicating our process when I nearly transparent enough with this whole thing is in disarray and my job is to fix it

we're fucked up and we're going to get better I promise you and for the people that are Beyond write an interview and yes so it could well be totally honest but it does have this this effect of you just keep reaching a certain kind of brick wall that yeah yeah that's how I felt that too I didn't didn't really Matt navigate that very well and that was a big part of the blowback CO2 blowback was accentuated when they found out that he sponsors me right as the cash app is one of his businesses and its sponsors the podcast yeah and I don't have that problem so I don't think that diagnoses your situation at all but it's the difference between these business the business models under which we run our podcasts and just a different images every choice you make and how to produce a pie

ice actually made the opposite one another. Streaming live like this the fact that you're so that is just all very interesting to make some kind of a reluctant student of digital media now because I just going to stumble into this wild west that you know you and large part of invented write him in this podcast in space was nothing and now we got Spotify in a buying up and it says like a land grab for audio Yeah that we were talking about that before the podcast they just purchase some company was it was it called for some Godly amount of money to spend 500 this year something in it so it's it's this would all just making this up and you know I make and you know I've just released a meditation app which is a different business model still as and I have these kind of two parallel digital business is happening in my life and it's some it's just very interesting the decisions you make are forced to make and the consequences of it until like the fact that we're having

conversation live you don't even have to think about what you're going to have it this right cuz it's not streaming live and when we're done we're going to turn off the mic and your job is done with my podcasts not the workflow at all and I decided I totally Envy this this approach that you have but for a variety of reasons I feel like I can't take it in my life until it's so but it is very different who dictates many choices badino down the line which there's a positive and negative but it's another the positive is what you hear is what we got and we're done after we turn these lights off and that's and that's not you know that's not how I podcast the visual element of it individual element of it in initially was almost like a side effect me when we first started it out visually but then when it started going to iTunes iTunes aspect of it became the focus the audio version of it rather became the focus but then we decided

stream on YouTube and put it up on YouTube and put it was totally not profitable it was just for for a goof like I will have the video at 1. Some people like video it was one of those things but then you realize ultimately that YouTube becomes a viable source of Revenue and then it's also the way a lot of people like to watch it you know and they also like to watch because they can comment on her it was the other thing that came out of the jackpot cast we got into a controversy about comments and about how comments or deleted or how they're they're shown in Hidden and what happens cuz people are accusing Jamie of delete all the derogatory comments we don't touch any we don't we don't delete any of them we don't do anything to them we just leave them up there and it's a mostly a cesspool but I'm not a good podcast there's a lot of crazy shit that happens on these things but from what we think and Jamie correct me if I'm wrong you think that what's going on is that people are marking other people's post as spam

there's that and then Brandon also has a theory that a lot of alt right people are targeted by the algorithm that YouTube uses like an inn in one case there was a guy with a Pepe the Frog Avatar and he said like his his comment immediately went to spam and that the other thing is that the comments are curated depending upon who is watching it and what account it'll be doubly different sort of the other Bill propagate different comments to the top it's not a this you can check your change it if you if you prefer to see the most new comment I from your own personal use it when you're watching you you as a viewer that's where user of you to have to make that actual conspiracy theory negative comments are you doing bad podcast but I will be the first one to tell you when I think a podcast sucked that podcast was definitely disappointed it wasn't good mine wasn't good it was like I said I want to listen to us like that has a kind of boring

this wasn't wasn't juicy it was not the hero we didn't get a flow it wasn't like he and I were just shooting the shit having a good time to take that one decision to make video and main component of this podcast. Still probably a small percentage of 50/50 okay so you have a video component I just put audio on YouTube but I put it actually no energy into YouTube I mean I may want to change but because I don't I don't care what's happening on YouTube right so I never see the comments and whenever I look it is as you say it's a sports and saying to me YouTube it's just skews massively right excuse. Just cancel email and it's probably excuse very young to so you have it just totally just like Millennial alt-right craziness right act like

for me right now you got a bunch of Millennials with a thumbs up their asses just whinging right now people to most common threads they could possibly respond anything I put out there now I don't even look at my at mentions for the most part I spend maybe five minutes a day looking at its Health what is coming back to me but you were actually helpful and reformatted my brain on that on that topic but so because I don't see any of that stuff I mean maybe I'm getting a lot of pain for my Dorsey interview but I don't even know about it right and it so I'm not having I don't feel like I have to course-correct in response to anything now and in large measure it is a consequence of Justice decision that you know it universally made that I'm just I don't have a video component to my podcast at the moment and so I'm not I'm not spectating on that you know that the feedback on YouTube will the feedback things interesting because we were just talking about this before the show that with feed

I can comment on YouTube essentially anyone can comment and if you don't go Banning people from the channel which we don't do it's not we wouldn't do some was totally a piece of shit but I don't so you essentially have this open Forum so it's like almost like a message board where people you just wrote a comment and it's unlike Twitter in that regard because Twitter just you know you get abusive and shit on Twitter they just get rid of you you get abusive and shity on Instagram or on Facebook Facebook they'll just get rid of you but if you are on YouTube and you're in those comments you can kind of get away with more so I would imagine that people that don't appreciate censorship and want to just just fucking spew out whatever is on their mind that would be the place they would go especially to the same product essentially doing different thing where it got confusing with the YouTube people versus the audio people with the audio people it's very obvious that the cash app is a sponsor because it's we say it this podcast has brought you by the cash app where is in YouTube

they're hiding the fact the cash out to sponsor we talked about it during the podcast itself but we don't put the ads on YouTube We there's ads that you to put the we put the ads on it look after the show is over I'll read the ads and we'll insert those into the audio and that will go up to iTunes and RSS feeds and all that stuff so the stuff that's on YouTube it's abbreviated in the sense that especially the live one doesn't have anything so 0ads and then the ones that'll be posted on YouTube later alive YouTube ads so that's why there is a couple of conspiracy theories in that regard there's also apparently in emerging conspiracy theory about that Jack was trying to pump up Bitcoin because they have some sort of a bit coin deal if you heard this one I read that but like it's from what I saw it's not higher than it was at any point is still right around $3,500 so if there was a pump and dump scheme of some sort than like it should be shipped like provable

watch it I guess I don't know yeah I don't understand that but it is there any other component to it said was that the cash app sells Bitcoins we talked about Bitcoin you can buy and sell Bitcoin through the cash app I should say in regard to comments into anything blog posts blockchain can have everything that's online forever but there's so many fucking conspiracy theories about all the stuff it's it's fascinating and as you know we were talking about earlier with your with the way you do yours you used to use patreon and now use your own website after the Sargon of akkad incident with your auntie nobly step back away from patreon Network or not so no play depending on what you think of Sargon of akkad

so many misconceptions about what happened there and I tried to clear them up on my podcast but yeah there's an interesting implication to not take a nap and I think what's happening in this is much bigger than even podcast and I think I've been should know what you feel about this if you have you are the quintessence of the successful ad model and in podcasting resurrected this is it's working fantastically well for you and for people like Tim Ferriss and you know probably Marc Maron the Minnesota there's some kind of like a winner-take-all thing happening in the space where ADS are working great and I am a really also a highly successful example of the the support Model T vs model is the NPR model and what's weird is it I can't like that we you know you and I are both surrounded by people who have podcast want to have podcasts and asking us for advice about how to say

seed and how to monetize and like I'm not even in a place where I can recommend my model to anyone else right because it's it's a very that you know it's it's very hit-or-miss and I had just happened to have developed an audience they will support my work and you develop that audience previously ironically enough on YouTube there's a lot of you too and I had this sort of forced choice where am I going to go to bed early on route or or not and I found that I may have two things to

how to say you're fairly strong against dad's but we're the only one of them applies to me and I don't think it applies to you or Tim or anyone else I'm I just felt personally I couldn't use ads because of so just what my platform is in and the kind of topics I'm engaging and it just didn't work then it was nothing highbrow enough where I felt like my credibility wasn't getting subtly undermine bye-bye shillingford to make me something to eat and I still couldn't do it and I might ride it with the only thing I took on as a sponsor was Audible and I did that for some weeks and then it just you know I love audible but but it is just felt wrong and so I decided to just experiment with a different business model and

it's working for me but it's I don't think I can work for most people and I view that as a problem and the thing that I think is is interesting to see if there is much bigger than podcast in so you have like you have Facebook on the one hand which is just a it totally free platform where we're at the users don't even realize that they're not the customers their the actual product write the uses are the users are having their attention soul to advertisers and it's just enormous business and on the other end of the digital Spectrum you have Netflix which is just a start payroll right and there's no way in but to pay the subscription and you know that's at the end of Netflix could run ads and get more money if they wanted to but they're not they're not doing that and presumably won't do that and I'm hoping just generally speaking at the digital future looks much more like Netflix and much less like Facebook and

could I see at what Aunt is out of done is they've anchored everyone to the illusion of free everyone expects their digital content for free except in places like Netflix price like it when you release a comedy special when you really releasing next hour and you sell it to net Netflix I would imagine they're very few people in your fanbase who are thinking well fuck Joe Rogan why didn't he just put that on YouTube right why is this on Netflix they start understanding this piece of content is belongs on that shelf and that if they want it they have to subscribe Netflix where is if you did something slightly different but going to functionally the same if you put it on Vimeo and charge people $5 or whatever in a video on demand release your stuff and

I do that as a problem it's like it's like a psychological problem people have been anchored to the ad subsidized model more lies everywhere and they expect everything for free and in my world I'm trying to just to continually Brook that expectation and push people into a different sense of you get what you pay for and end this or that the hybrid model I've created for myself is

I'm putting more stuff behind a paywall write a minute so that this is it's not just pure sponsorship of otherwise free content but Imma I'm personally I'm very uncomfortable with the idea that if someone actually can't afford it they can't get access to my contacts so I just tell people if you really can't afford the stuff on my payroll you really can't afford my meditation app just send us an email and we'll give it to you for free in the app store for my medication at yours email address I think that's fantastic and so that way but I'm raising prices so it's like it's like I think everything is too cheap I think what I think we're anchored to I'm in there people who will spend

$5 a day on a cup of coffee every day for the rest of their lives and he had a few told them this podcast over this app that they that they say is incredibly valuable to them is going to cost them $5 a month they they feel raped right now so it's because I know what it's like to hit a wall and think I can't get my credit card at again I'm not going to pay for this I'll come in to find this information somewhere else so we've all been anchored to this thing and you know something is going to win in the end I'm how you know I think it at some point you know it is going to look much more like Netflix or much more like Facebook and I mean I'm throwing my lot in with the former but now it's it really is the wild west will the Netflix things different because Netflix has programs that cost a lot of money to create this podcast is very easy you're my friend I call you up paint to do a podcast you coming over here I mean obviously got to pay for all this equipment but other than that just and then

Weston Ranch and all that stuff but other than that just goes up where is you do a comedy special across hundreds of thousands of dollars you have to secure a venue you have to hire staff and it's a big deal it's that's in that's an easy thing in terms of like bang for their buck with what Netflix will get out of it if you do a television show me my God and you need to hire hundreds of people there's wardrobe and makeup and set and there's writers and producers and Executives never have to go over the script with a fine-tooth comb it's incredibly incredibly strenuous is a lot going on when you create a television like stranger things or something like that I have so much special effects and so to ask for that for free seems to me seems ridiculous to tracks here an app is much more like a television show surprisingly then that it is like a podcast but but even if it is just a podcast if you want to build something if you want to build a mediator

like a like a like let's say you were let's say you were asking for support for this otherwise free pot podcast people don't know what your aspirations are maybe you want to start a podcast Network right maybe you had your trying to build a business that is that maybe you have massive payroll expenses that you notice of the expectation that the product should always be free closes the door to any of those aspirations if in fact you have them and you know it's like I made it is very interesting psychological you because I've created this network of support for my podcast but I see people do calculations that they would never do in a more transactional spacer they were just say buying my next book right so like for me offering a free podcast and then saying

if you find this valuable you can support it right that you're from the side being a creator of that content it feels like the the most transparent interaction possible because a person can I listen for free for as long as they want to just discovered how valuable this and then they can support it to the debris that if they find it valuable where is if I'm selling you a book you can't even read the book before you before you buy it we have to make the decision to buy it and I'm trying to convince you to buy it because it took me all the time to write it and and you know you're you know is is is transactional with but with a podcast people

make calculations are they would never make when they're just figuring out whether they want to buy something fight like a and is really a long lines what you just described people say well how much does a podcast cost to produce really like if I knew what you were spending the money on and what it cost you to do this podcast will then I would support you right but I'm never saying how much does it cost to write a book if I knew what you were going to spend the money on once you once you were once it once I bought this book then I would know whether or not I wanted to buy the either want the book of you don't write so the problem with the support mod on this the problem with patreon everything else is that getting gauge is the sort of the philanthropy charity side of the brain right and people are worried about what you're going to do and how much at all cause I how much does is my car right now I got that's that's a question if someone is asking when they're donating donating and the problem there is there not understanding you know

just the opportunity cost I got you know I have to decide how to spend my time am I going to spend 90% of my time on a podcast will if so that closes the door to virtually everything else I can do right so it's you know what it has to become a viable business and so and I've recognized now that I am you know to some degree going against the grain of human psychology and asking for support and now I now I feel like I'm going to ask much less a man but I'm going to tell people with the business model isn't and you know and still at 10 remind them of it but I'm personally I'm going to go more and more than in the direction of putting stuff behind a paywall and if people want it then they can support and it starts and what they would also let you get it for free if you really couldn't afford it that's a guilt-free business model that I'm I'm converging on I like it I like how you thinking and I like the ethics involve

I think it's a great thing and when you set it on your podcast I was shocked but it makes sense coming from you my thought is I'm in negotiation are in discussions right now and I talked to you about this to about building a nap and what I want to do with the app is have a set amount of money that you pay per month if you want to sign up for the app and you get the podcast with no ads so you can either get it from iTunes or whatever you Google play or Google podcast or you can get it from the app and if you get it from the app you pay x amount per month and you get the podcast with zero at and it'll stream live me to figure out a way to do both those things my thought going into advertising when I when I first did the podcast I've been doing the podcast now for 9 years when I first started doing it there was no ads for the longest time it just cost money it cost money to for pan with it cost money to put a but I was doing it for fun and I didn't care and I had my Revenue was coming from other sources a few years ago I decide

what I was going to do was because I was getting ad will the first ad request was a Facebook was the flashlight rather and you were the first person I do not have the flashlight on the first podcast that we didn't come prima donna and Sam Harris

sense me they were disgusting ads do we would get ridiculous and be really silly in the rain in their ears let me know if you want to jack off with his fantastica vice experience some pretty significant positive impact from that mean their business went through the roof because of the podcast I mean they're really sold a shitload of flashlights where they told me like some ungodly never like 50% of the flashlight they were selling was code word rogue armies of people using a product in a round and then as the podcast space started expanding then advertisers tentatively were dipping your toe in my philosophy and it still holds Jamie

2012 11 I wasn't the first time I was on here was 2011 around 2010 or 11 has no other ads other than the flashlight with you and then the flashlight dropped off when we start asking for more money than like I think we hit the point of no return but my philosophy getting into advertisement was I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want to do a hundred percent and have no impact whatsoever on the content of my podcast like whatever advertisers that I choose whatever advertisers that make deals with they have to understand that there's no way I'm changing the content of the podcast and if I lose them I lose them I don't care and that was the thought process going in so I never hit a snag like this cash app Jack Dorsey thing before where people think that the reason why I was easy

with him was because of the fact that he sponsors the podcast it's a very obvious conflict of interest have to realize that if they chernow off your podcast you've got just an endless number of appetizers white in the middle by a lot of rides we do have a good relationship with them but I don't need them now they went away I have too many ads that sounds gross to say but it is a fact I have many more ads going to have spots for ads so if they went away would not hurt me at all financially because I put a limit on how many as I do per podcast I also don't ever interrupt a podcast with an a that I don't do that because I don't do that. Cost me money but I just feel like the experience of listening to a podcast unbroken is so much better

then listen to podcast we'll be right back with this word from Casper mattresses you know it just it's gross but in the beginning of you know where it is you can fast forward but maybe you into this. Maybe you need stamps., maybe whatever the fuck you need that those are the ads they pay a lot of money I'm going to take that money and I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want and if these guys decide oh you smoke pot or you're too controversial are you talk about this or talk about that we're going to drop you okay that's my philosophy I've lost that I've lost sponsors okay I don't care but just I lost the cash out cuz I was too hard on Jack Dorsey wife Jack Dorsey comes back and I'm too hard on him and Grilling him about these people that have been censored

I hope he doesn't but I like them I want to know what's going on there in fact I'm having Tim pool come on tomorrow temples and investigative independent and he knows a lot about the censorship issue with YouTube or with with Twitter brother and he knows why YouTube is well but with who is censored and why who is removed who is bendy platforms why did Ben deplatforming where are the inconsistencies and you know where why why is it skewing so heavily right where the people the right of the ones were getting banned the people on the left to get away with a lot of crazy shit so where we going to get into the weed with that and if the cash app here's dad and they decide to drop me as a sponsor I don't care I really don't care but it was one of things of being a stand-up comedian working for the UFC and having a podcast and NFL podcast with ads on YouTube and and having a zipper on the regular podcast self I'm free

in a sentence to I have plenty of money it's not whether or not I'm starving to worry about paying my bills free to do whatever I want to do like I don't think cuz I sound totally sanctimonious and it's not intended that way I don't think my Scruples around at reading it as I my podcast apply to you or or Tim Ferriss or many other people attended the ultimate example to somebody whose brand on some level is what I'm going to do is I'm going to go out there and find the best ship in the world are the best shirts the best workout equipment dress and I'm going to tell you about it but I want to know what Tim is found totally brand conversion for him and I think you're very much in a similar situation if you're talking about on at whatever it is must be part of on it right for babysitting

recommended by somebody but sounds like some of them that are just boring am I going to read that that's stupid but also you're a comic who can send up because he lost NatureBox to go eat apples so that's a tool you have in your wheelhouse that has effects down one reason why you can stream live without really worrying about it at the end of the day like it's things go completely Haywire on your podcast you can say was I'm a fucking comment what do I know that you'd like you can just pull the ripcord and you're fine

I can't do that. So you know I have to prepare more for podcast and I feel like I personally I made it is as much as out of concern for my guess as well like I just you know what this a high-wire act but I want a net normally so that people feel free to be totally unguarded because we know that if we have a spaz attack we can you know we can you know even ordering Spanos attack will screws some people's careers really actually had a conversation about a podcast that I talk to you about one of your podcast we said that you actually started it over yeah started right let's try this again let's just start from scratch I think it would it would be sporting to say with pockets that was but yes I had a podcast that

went completely into the ditch for the first half our men just brutal and and I said listen to there's a real it is a good conversation for us to have here and now I know how badly this can go like now I know just where the track is I have to struggle to keep the Train on and so we're going to reboot when I start again and we'll see what happens and you know the podcast was was not perfect and I got some criticism for it but people didn't understand that we were like you know we had a you know we had I've seen the pit of alligators and didn't want to fall in right now split made more sense though when you told me that because it was heated before you even got to go cuz you've already gone through a half an hour of back-and-forth yeah what it's like to do one of these things too because you know you do it so often it becomes pretty and you're so good at talking you're such a good orator and you're so articulate that it comes off smooth &

you just having a conversation with someone but you're always considering the fact that people are listening to this you're always saying how do I how do I get more out of him or her how do I take this in and how do I get this person to expand upon this how do I you know how do I make this something make something out of this cuz he was talking in this way and we're really working hard on fixing all these issues and like every time a question be answered he would stop talking and I'll go okay next what's almost like I have to restart the momentum of it but I'm totally I'm that kind of speaker so that wasn't a problem and I don't know we have talked like I never heard him talk ever so hearing him talk there and in talking to him live you know I mean some people are fucking effortless

Elon took a while but you got to start drinking I tried to micromanage that behind the scenes right like I was all in your in your grill to figure that out and you know you guys basically broke all the rules I let I thought I lay down I'll be on Joe's Podcast Thursday night and whatever and answer the phone but you know I didn't want you guys to go live I wanted I wanted you to both have a chance to say so you know you didn't take my advice and it was what it was drunk by the time the weed came out from the beginning of the podcast we both had two or three glasses of whiskey before the weed came out nobody cared the fact that the CEO of Tesla was drunk no one cared about that I mean wasn't drunk but it shouldn't I don't know that was obvious

you were drinking whiskey glasses so was that I feel like you both got unlucky with Wounded where he was in his life at that moment because I showcased at least for the first

I don't know 90 minutes was just how many user interface problems you could have with the Elan right like he showed up as as kind of Fairly weird right he's not he's not always like that by any stretch I'm he can give a very loose interview Andy but you were working a menu is just absolutely heroic work trying to keep that conversation happening you know in the beginning it was good it was and he was just in a space that he may he was so massively stressed and so overworked and just admit it he had you know fires everywhere that I had to be put out and so I just let you know as a friend I just felt like okay this is the wrong time to be doing this and this is it until I just felt you know it just because he's

again I see him and in many other moments and he can be

that was out of those actually circumstance where I was looking at the comments right you know what I was saying to visit these with these are people who are basically reading him as somebody who is is much Stranger Than in fact he he ever is and I could see why they were doing that because he the guy he just seemed in a very stressed space in his life what was interesting he was very differently first got here versus when the light came on when he first got here he pulls out the fucking blowtorch and starts shooting this flamethrower in the middle of the hallway and we're going to be easy and stiff right off the bat and I'm just trying to massage it and get them get them get them going to be live because it it it it has a massive Advantage for you as well but it is

there's a different feeling you know if I knew that this was being taped and I could rethink the thing we're about to say about Liam Neeson or whatever it is you know it's it's different and so but different story is a perfect example of a story where you know if you are Liam's friend you go through until that one until that one but I want to be honest I don't don't you could be honest with me I'm not going to judge you if you tell me that someone got raped and you went out with a baseball bat for a week looking for a black man to beat up I'll tell ya kill I do like all Jesus Christ man like what the fuck was going through your head that point I'm like that's terrible yeah like I feel awful about it I can't believe that was me but it didn't happen nothing happened and now you know people are calling them a racist and they don't want him in movies and whatever this is

implications we need to think through the whole process of redemption for people in our society what are the what are the criteria for

successful apologies and for forgiveness because special people are are having their their reputations destroyed in their careers threatened for tweets they sent as teenagers and things are not disappearing online anymore in a certain point everyone is just going to be a 360 panoptikon view of everyone's life in other people who could grown-up on social media and everything is out there and

the irony here for me is that

you have Elena progressed progressives and your people on the far left who receive a disclosure like you know Liam Neeson still still take his and they just want you know they just want to see him burned a lot for Alyssa to the Wicker man on this guy because this is this is so awful and yet alongside that the same people on the left are people who have is a is a genuine ethical Norm the rehabilitation of murderers you could be somebody who spent you know 20 years in prison for a crime you admit you committed and there's this normal round Redemption and I saw there's a there's no way to square those two things and support of the hijab I mean what's going on there how you do that don't be islamophobic but also support women's rights and gay rights

Eric Weinstein our mutual friend calls these the the Hilbert problems for social justice Warriors and David Hilbert mathematician who it at the turn of the 19th century posed a set of problems in mathematics that you know or just the other day on his list of the most desirable questions they are the hardest question to the most consequential questions answer and so you know Erica's being a mathematician is flip that around ironically said these are these are the questions that social justice Warriors have to answer in and they're these impossible opposition to the store but so the something and you'll forgive me if I for some detail with his come out that I'm not aware of but my understanding of it is he going to be had a friend who was raped and then he reported this state of mind this murderous state of mind he was in where he was walking around with what he calls it a Cosh I'm at the British word for like

like a blackjack or their likes and looking for a black eye to kill you like doesn't hoping someone's going to come out of the woodwork and threaten him so that he could do no kill this guy in this act of instrumental violence because his friend have been raped by black guy writes like any black I will do that sort of like the extra horrific wrinkle to the story right now and he's confessing this as a symptom of transient mental illness at least as far as I know he's horrified by the fact that he was in the state of mind can you imagine an actor have everything to lose and although I don't remember what it what point is why if he said this happened can you imagine that I was in the state of mind right and this is as you say it an all too honest disclosure

but it is damn interesting right and it is the kind of thing that we should be able to talk about right and it's not end the fact that this is becoming synonymous with racism seem strong given given how he's doing he described her at least how I've heard this because he's saying listen to visit Ben and Armenian guy or an Italian or a Japanese guy I've been looking for one of them right what what what this was at least on his talent is the virus of instrumental violence me that the virus of like listen how every blood Feud ever get in human history get start is like you like someone from your tribe killed my brother and now what I want to do is kill anyone from your right doesn't matter who and end that you clearly as toxic as it gets you know ethically but that's not racism right that's just

that is the way we have a word for it since it's instrumental violence but you know the guy obviously is getting totally pilloried over this but we need we just need to figure out how to talk about how people can redeem themselves once something this unsavory is is revealed about their past whether they reveal it away there's just found out about them yeah I mean it is racism because he specifically looking for a black guy I mean I don't know but it's a part of the other tribe know but it doesn't suggest that he has us a bit exposed if you told me

can he could he could have said again it could have been an Irish guy right or could have been able I guess he's Irish and Scottish or Irish it could have been an English guy try to keep it like any type right as I can see the salience of the tribe is what he was reacting to pleased in his description I don't know why you wouldn't take him at his word given that he didn't have to say any of this in the first place right this is amazing Lee honest and unnecessary disclosure but it's and I don't think people would think of it as you know she got raped by a cop and I was just hoping to go kill a cop right and so yeah but we're so trigger-happy in our outrage with respect to anything like why do you think that is like what it what is going on because outrage seems to be more in season than it's ever been

my lifetime I don't worry I don't remember outrage being so just such a it's it's it's recreational Jack Sandlot 2 has a lot to do with social media and Twitter in particular I missed the whole Covington High School catholic Fiasco basically was ignoring Twitter I saw I saw it at the corner of my eye like that medicine interesting this is this is blowing up but I was so off Twitter that I had there was no temptation for a hot take from right and I saw these people just torturing their reputations by taking these like if I Kathy Griffin Rob Base it calling for the doxxing of these kids you know given all that she has suffered enough but from from Mob Behavior online and she is you know whipping up around mob it was just nuts but that's what the platform is calling out of people also when people have been shot

and they've done something awful then they reinforce their base like that now she's like his so heavily hard left because their right-wing ran after her like any one on the right is anything she's calling for her side to go after this person like reinforcing that she's a part of that tribe that she's a part of that left-wing tribe yeah well it's so obviously that everyone has a lot to lose doing this especially in a case where all the facts aren't in and if you just waited a beat me the New York Times got this wrong New York Times writes an article about the kids in the Maga hat that they have to resend and the so then as a dust is settling

and I see these people some people are doubling down some people issuing public apologies I see somebody who's actually in a branded herself as we are one of my enemies for some reason I can't fathom but this journalist Kara Swisher who you know she works for recode and end in Vox now but it's got a big podcast and she's a big check to write for the New York Times opinion piece for the regular calling for then your time she's a journalist and I happen to know she doesn't like me because she's tweeted against if she said some disparaging things about me on Twitter and we had a conversation about it but I saw her she said one of the most vituperative and you know fairly crazy things in response to the kids initially and then once more information came out she walked back and she basically apologized if you know I just wanted to support this Norm of eggnog

Jim that you got something wrong and I wanted to do it even I want to actually do it for someone who I know really doesn't like me like I'm in that was an added bonus for me because that's it that's another Norm that I did I think we should support like we should we should play fair even with our enemies and honestly I know I try to play fair even with people who never play fair with me even someone like going to Glenn Greenwald Reza Aslan with people who have lied about me endlessly if I get something wrong about them I publicly apologize for it so I did this and this was at the absolute 11th hour with respect to this this Scandal online when I saw the kind of pain I was getting just for a supporting Cara in her walk back of the same way at a moment when it was obvious she should have bought this back I got people saying you unsubscribe me from your podcast you aren't you know now I know you're a fucking racist it was just I just Shore pain

and I just wow man that's you know it's like you just touch this thing at its very end and your ear you know it's that the Slime gets on you so yeah it is you know how it is we had to walk before it is the media opinions are being heard they want their opinion to be her they want to be heard right now and it might not be a very well-thought-out opinion but they know that they have the ability to Blair it out until I just send it out and that that the ability to do that it's just intoxicating for folks you talked about this with Jack there is a what would makes Twitter especially good for this is that everything has the same stature like your tweets no bigger than the other tweet that just called you and asked yeah that's my Kurt Metzger take on it because Kurt Metzger was a hilarious stand-up comedian Facebook block only you only like he's like it's

is a big differentiates between me and these fucking idiots or commenting under their of all the ironic way I hate Facebook I can't even just a graphic design on Facebook events of that I can look at Facebook so I use it as a publishing Channel but I'm not keep threatening in my own mind to just delete the account cuz I just don't read the comments 3 times maybe ever has crisis like you too but alive I know it's like you too but with people with their real names everybody's trying to navigate this thing figured out as it goes along and not everybody's doing it well know this world is going to get more and more intrusive I think this is just the beginning I think we didn't see Twitter coming whatever comes after Twitter and this is one of things that I before the podcast I wanted to really talked to Jack about to get his take on what he thinks is next down the line because there's going to be something that's more invasive

it's going to be something that is more whether it's I think probably something in the line of augmented reality like there were probably a decade away from something that makes this look like books look like you know what a fucking cork board at a bookstore we're living to the Golden Age of audio here so I can go like near 3D and end in o v r and then all of a sudden audio is King how about phone calls and text and it was like I'm walking to the supermarket somebody said it was hilarious it is just like knocking on my door without calling me

blue and it's just it seems like a knock on the door only calls only three years he would just scream at you if you text and then recently within the last two or three years to start texting occasionally the only calls but I got so I got to tell you release this meditation app has given me a ton of a sanity check on everything else I'm doing which is very important because I'm releasing the app you know it's like it it's firewalled from all the other controversial stuff I'm doing I like I'm not you know what you mean the app I'm not windy in about Trump or talking about any of the stuff I talked about on on my podcast is just me trying to teach meditation at as a plays an antidote to all of the stuff we're talking about I said we got the slot machine in our pocket that is continually game in our attention all day long and you know I'm in my view a meditation app is like the one thing you can have on your smartphone that's

Gateway subverts the technology and you can get you to actually who live a more examined life using the technology but what's been amazing for me personally is it I put it out and it is the only thing that I have put out maybe ever right where it is it's been received exactly as I've intended but there's no controversy is just like like the people who find it useful love it and they say thank you and it's like they're they're they're getting exactly what I thought I was putting into it and it's like it made me think what the hell am I doing over here with all of this toxic stuff and Leslie maliciously spawn against me and misunderstood and you know it's just because there's a lot of important things to talk about that are going to be endlessly spawning and malicious landed misunderstood but it is it's been so refreshing to have one thing and then you must get this with

I don't have a thing I get shit for everything okay maybe UFC, psychologically it's been a revelation to have one thing that I can put out that is just it's just received appreciated and they got what I intended and it's just you know thank you for that it's just like that's possible I don't have no idea if I ever knew I had forgotten that that that was possible a meditation app be kind of makes sense because the people going to flock to that are looking to meditate to look at them have their mind and not do looking ass pure hatred on Facebook know his podcast with, even if you put your foot in your mouth everybody knows you just trying to be funny if you do a podcast and anything about the podcast with Jack it's not even like I said anything bad it's what I didn't say that

was upsetting to so many people put that such a loaded thing and because of that podcast now there's there's negative to it that blow back there's a lot of you know toxic anger and all that but the positive is what I like the positive that came out of it as me forced to re-examine how I do podcast re-examined the significance of each individual Gaston especially someone that comes with as much baggage in a wood that without lack of a better term is Jack that you're you know you got to think that there's people listening and there's some questions that you really have to work at you have to you have to push through and even if he's he's dancing and Pier wedding I should have went back to okay why is Kathy Griffin on your platform when someone says I want names 16 year old kids names and then when you see the actual the actual video of what act

happened and there's so many people there still not walking it back still in DC and those hats those Maga hats they're fucking everywhere there's a little where these kids were that area there's these carts that sell these hats so these kids bought those hats that day is not like Maga kids they're probably just being assholes right there unsupervised teenage boys their frontal lobe is not fully formed and they're all together feeding off each other like a pack of Grandma was a teenage boy you were teenage boy you know I fucking stupid used to be I don't have my moments you get a hundred teenage boys together in a crowd you know on a school trip and you can you get some native Elder Drummond in one of them some guy's face it was amazing what didn't happen there

a smile against a Catholic school kid wearing a Maga hat thought you liked the given given my back story is like yeah I'm totally boys I think this guy is an asshole and it's likely always be an asshole but what people read into an uncomfortable smile right, just like that the shot of his face with the tweets that said you know this is what white privilege looks like this is going to this is this is the everything is wrong in our society it's just we have to slow down if you ever seen a more punching bag cuz he's so fucking disturbing to me because my parents were hippies when I grow up I always thought of the left and we always you know I've been called right when I'm devoted anything--but Democratic my life except for Gary Johnson

Gary Johnson was only time I voted independent or whatever the fuck he was libertarian podcast was always very considerate well-read they were they were the people that were more open-minded they were supporting of gay people in minorities that was the last thing they were non-violent they were the people protesting Vietnam when I was a kid Port of of the virtue of speech antifreeze gauge and self-criticism the picture of the last against the right has always been there's this self-scrutiny and willingness to wonder whether or not I'm wrong that isn't mirrored if you go far enough right and it has there has been so there's been kind of an asymmetric war between left and right for much of our lifetime but you go far enough left now and your your

eating a kind of totalitarian resistance to speech and it's so yeah it's very the 2020 campaign plays out I'm not really worried that we could totally blow it with some leftist social W Uprising reasonable Centrist write someone who has made sense and you know what two things that I liked about Tulsi is that she's a veteran and you know I mean like she's she seems very reasonable to me but except her career closely but it just seems like she's not making the right noises on things like Syria and massage. I don't know enough about that, I don't know enough about Assad in the controversy with another gas is what it is I think I'm controversial

I miss you capable of putting both feet in her mouth on that and she wouldn't she saying he's not an enemy of America right yeah but I would you know be very circumspect about endorsing her going forward we could do it do a little homework because I think her candidacy is not going to eat well since Tia Elizabeth Warren's fuck now playing that game with Trump yes it was that was such a miscalculation the fact that she released the data in the data is so clear until the end of time but that but then two then have to apologize to Native Americans for having done the tip amount of Native American is so lit I've been joking around about it that I am like a hundred times more app

read she is native american guy I'm 1.6% African and she's less than like weigh less than 1% Native American right but this is the sort of masochistic death spiral that people in the last can get into us like you're likely at the left and that I've always said that the left or the right never does and it's that it's just it's so we have to find someone who can stand outside that the circular firing squad right and it would be someone who's you know it would be my view would be somebody like a a younger Bloomberg Ram in Bloomsburg but like somebody like a legit businessman who could call bullshit on all of Trump's fake business Acumen and who's not ethically compromised right but who can be who can get stuff done and not someone

who feels the need to Pander to the far left on these identity politics issues going to be bad for us against Trump because so much of the country did The crucial sliver of the country me just have to ask yourself who was it who voted for Obama and then or twice and then voted for Trump right those people aren't racist write those people are sick of being called racist right there and in the so what's happening on the left around identity politics in all of these Miss not that racism isn't a problem is not that transgender issues don't have to be worked out and like all like all of those are legit concerns but the fact that that's the center of mass politically on the left in a nationwide election again someone like Trump

I just now got to Absolute recipe for disaster because the people that subscribe to that Audiology don't realize how many people think it's silly oppression Olympics in your you trying to win the gold and forever how many people is actually misapplied in right it's like they're there are many more explanations for voting for Trump in addition to races every racist voted for Trump in a virtually so that's fine every white supremacist voted for Trump but that's not the story about white trash Trump got elected and 7 store it's much more.

what Universe are not thriving in the current economy and I miss all you got automation displacing manufacturing jobs you got the consequences of trade and immigration and you have legitimate concerns about their legitimate concerns about immigration that have nothing to do with racism and so if you're going to score any hesitation are over something like open borders as a sign of your xenophobia and racism you're going to lose virtually everyone who has a saying concerned about how to how you know keep people in it how you how you would meet the right people into a country in their their economic concerns and their social concerns and

yeah man and you don't have to be Ben Shapiro to share some of those concerns right and I must have been to Paris race it's obvious I'm saying he's a conservative and it takes a more conservative line on on many of these questions than I do but it's like you either you either think would you take immigration is the narrow Kay's you either think you should be able to know who's coming into the country or you don't right now if you if you think you should just have open borders there two problems with that one is there many good arguments against that and to

I don't know what the percentage is but it's got to be something like 95% of Americans would be terrified of that Prospect rights of any of your platform is essentially saying a concern about immigration is synonymous with racism you know you have a platform that this going to alienate most people and that's the Democrats are totally capable of seeming like that weather in fact that's that's true for for most Democrats what do you think is what's the primary factor like what what caused identity Politics the reach this boiling point that it's at right now

it is I think

in large measure what the internet is doing to us it's not identity politics has been a feature of politics for forever but there is a there's a silo in effect there's the fact that groups become more radicalized as groups because the most extreme voices 10 to 2 pipe up more and then in the end everyone everyone who's who's silent it is kind of a diffusion of responsibility around around counter in these extreme boys I get you to Everett you can it only takes a small percentage of extreme voices to Cal the rest of a group and it and make the group seemed like the extreme voices Arthur speaking for the group so I think what we have on both the left and the right we have a small percentage of the end of the last poll I saw that try to get to this question was something like in 06 or 8% on the tails

better making it seem like these are I think it was more of a of a problem on the left on the right because it may be extreme right is fringe and looks French Riley the guy with the guys in Charlottesville Charlottesville with their tiki torches they don't look like they represent the Republican party or the or the the the right there be no conservatives in any general sends their symptom of some problem but it's a smaller problem it's a minority problem where is on the left the extreme voices are have massive Sway in the major companies in tech companies in journalism in Academia like like the silencing of fact and the reputational cost is being paid by even very powerful people in all these mainstream Forums on the left

is is just it that's not mirrored on the right you know and it's a bit so I don't know if I told you this on previous podcast with your butt so is that I was a dinner with a bunch of Silicon Valley people and we were talking about it I was at the moment when that that Netflix story happened where the play Jonathan Friedland got fired over using the n-word in a closed-door meeting and it was it was a response to my friend Tom Segura who you think he said you can't say retarded anymore. And then explained like that you know those words you can't use anymore and I wasn't using it in a joke like calling someone retarded or saying something retarded but they were sin he was saying that that's like using the n-word around by use the n-word in this made it right and that just a mere Inn

creation of the syllables was so shocking right that he went up getting fired and he was he was using it in the context of expressing just how careful Netflix has to be if he was going social justice Warrior on himself among social justice Warriors and he said this is how worried we have to be and then they gave the magic incantation still say retarded which is amazing because I mean in his defense you kind of have to say both words not saying the r-word right we're getting to some weird fucking weird place with this actually know and now I realize why I'm confused about why I think I've talked about this podcast with Chelsea Handler which hasn't aired months ago cuz she was doing a documentary on White Privilege I think I think I'm actually cast of the guy with white privilege in the elevator

but I recorded a podcast with her anyway when we hit this this point because of this it just come out then and I think her documentaries probably for Netflix so will she was she was facing him and she was playing the other side of the net for those who know and not have to say I mean I think I at least in my own mind I certainly made sense there in and she may shouldn't have a lot of response to it to what I was saying but I haven't heard the audio to see the video but the

so anyway I was at a dinner with a bunch of tech CEOs talking about this problem and one guy who woohoo I won't name who runs a big company that I wish I want name set what's a you have no idea how deep this goes like I have an HR complaint where there's a guy who identifies as a furry but he thinks he's a cat and because we don't provide a litter boxes in the bathroom right he's he's launching HR complaint right this is real this is where this was told as a real story of CounterPoint or an inn in amplification of the story were talking about Netflix right so it's like it like this is a people having to navigate CEOs of multimillion-dollar companies navigate around this stuff and house right and I'm in the Google thing over James D'Amore right

that was that was an enormous problem if Google were coming off as far as I heard there was a there was going to be a Google Mutiny over James D'Amore if he was essentially like a a B+ term paper in human biology right and it was like it you can you can

what happens if you can push back on some of the science say what like this was not a malicious Distortion of the the state-of-the-science Wrath and and this was not calling for discrimination against women this was saying listen men and women are different and they got different interest right in this could account for why there's an unequal representation at the level of seeing a software is software development and

so what like we are on the left we're finding it very difficult to even talk about differences between men and women right that there is no you need to start with you and start with a uterus and then Keno count from their right that is already at Abu conversation to have and then you know as we sat at the beginning and talking about the Twitter that one writer can I think her name is Megan Murphy she got booted for saying men are not women act like that's so I'm very worried that unless we resolved. Just cut through it we don't stand a chance against Trump in 2020 I was reading a story about a woman who was on some sort of an lbgt panel and she's a part of some group and she was kicked out of it by a man who identifies as a lesbian and he has penis

yeah I might have read a Twitter comment about how Preposterous that was inside the penis Park this Sunday at Andrew Sullivan Road in a recent article on this is that the transgender thing is at odds with gay rights in the fundamental sent me you can't balance these equations because gay identity absolutely focuses on the legitimate differences between men and women like I'm a man I like men like my women that's my situation but once you once you changed your notion of how gender leads to sex it begins to a road this this claim on the legitimacy of of

gay identity for the stick together that's the idea behind it only imagine what he writes these articles I'm sure he's just gets eviscerated by the left me. He's just a straight-up talking about this is what gay rights looks like and this is how you can't be a man with a penis who's identifies as a lesbian right you know yeah but you can't say that you also can't say that a man with a penis is not a woman

cuz if a man like a penis but if you do say it you will get a certain amount of hate and there's people that are saying that men who will not date trans women who still have penises their transphobic I mean Jamie kilstein

So Jamie and I have a a checkered history I don't know if maybe you and I have spoken about it I never met Jamie but Jamie when Jamie was social justice Warrior number one he went hard he went hard if not telling me he just just was Donkey on me and was way in ways that were totally unfair and he was just you know he was working very hard to become an enemy and then he had his his epiphany of being over there then the social justice model came for him over something with almost nothing over him trying to get laid I mean like they were saying he was a creep or something like that strike that's hitting on girls

friendly and apologetic emails about to see how I'm sorry what I did and and see what he wants to do a podcast I haven't taken him up on it but you know that maybe I could be an interesting conversation sincerely apologetic he's a good guy I mean he and I had our own issue at one point in time over a podcast that we did versus it was the Daniel Tosh rape controversy like some woman in a crowd he was he was on stage and I wasn't supposed to be there it was at the Laugh Factory and Dom Irrera put them on stage and he goes like I don't have any material what do you guys want to talk about and some guy yells out rape her friend that's always helpful so you know it's like some drunk in a crowd try to go see Cheese's crazy lately and so Daniel Tosh's take out what's funny about that

humiliation violence hell he's like this guy in trying to do stand-up and some woman yells there's nothing funny about rape and he goes to be fine if someone is raped her and everybody starts laughing and she wanted him to apologize about it and Jamie went after Daniel Tosh Azrael Comics saying that it's you know like and I'm like well she's a Heckler the one woman heckled like what he's trying to do to stand up and he's like I don't not going to support rape culture and he's like how the fuck is that rape culture like he's he's clearly making a joke about something she said it was very very patronizing obviously he doesn't think there's something funny about rapist it is he's just trying to work through this ad lib set that he's doing with some guy who yelled out something that this whole crowd has to respond to he can't just ignore the fact that it happened and go fire trucks

red you know you can't do that he's got he's got a deal with what this guy said in so that's what he tosses out there and everybody laughs by the way for someone and you know I had this little tit-for-tat about it but he he's very honest about his mistakes like when you talk to him and he's he's got great Insight because he was that guy and he was that guy that was going back and forth with people online all day and checking is mentions I couldn't walk down the street one five steps before you pull out a check is mentioned to see how people responding to his latest Duncan or take down or you know it's just it's a toxic thing that people are doing it's this this looking for people that are that are bad I'm looking for things that are wrong looking for wrongspeak it's very toxic it's toxic for the people that are doing it toxic for the people that are receiving it so it's not a way that you and beans whatever

vacating one-on-one I mean I tried to communicate with people the same way online as I would have been right in front of me I don't succeed try that's my goal my goal is to try to talk to someone if they're right in front of me that's clearly not how everybody Pantano road rage is he is the best analogy would happen in social media only difference is road rage you know there's a Lagos physiological reason for road rage because you're you're you're in a dangerous situation of your subliminally taking stock of a metal machine with a bunch of assholes that are probably looking at the phone and everybody's going fast and you could die at any moment if something goes wrong if you're on the highway like the 405 and you have five Lanes on 70 miles an hour it is a fucking miracle that no one dies every day we do it every day everything's fine

yeah what's up let's go back to this idea of what the the actual normative response would be when somebody puts their foot in their mouth or something from their past gets disclose means of these stupid and indefensible thing they did as a teenager right yeah you know I like this you know you got these guys who are now having their careers destroyed for having dressed up for you know the lady in the black face or they have been hood for Halloween whatever was I mean I do not think

that one politician that said he's not even in the in the photo but the photo is on his yearbook page or like whatever you put on your yearbook page in high school right you find out this thing that you know adults is going to defend right but what is the path back what like what what is the reboot that wouldn't it should be acceptable because we don't even know it seems we don't even know what

could conceivably work to rehabilitate somebody's career and yet on this other side we've got people who again or being let out of prison for murders they admit they committed right or rapes they admit admit they committed and their rehabilitated and we have in these are these are stories were supposed to feel good about right so that we have to figure out how to square this on the left and you know I don't know I made it to the way I've been thinking about it is that it has to be intelligible how you are different from the person who committed that thing you did something that was less a legit racist when you were 20

and was Mark Mark Wahlberg is an example of running around. Just beating people senseless right and for a valid racist motives I believe when he was at a loss as I think I was at I got was a Vietnamese guy he attac but I'm he was just truly indefensible things now I don't know what sort of PR moment he has had since oh how he's apologized for it or I mean that was a that's a very different time I think it was all that stuff was being discovered about him now there may be no way back to make it with this day it could be ignited apologize for it and even though that it's been addressed it absolutely get reignite I meant you just me talking about around here podcast is fucking him over right could yeah I mean and also people have to recognize that there's some things but you can't retroactively

instill today's ideas of what constitutes racism on 1985 so if you were in high school in 1985 and you dressed up as mr. T you know that I don't know if that was racist back then I never did it but I don't know if that's racist like if you had a bunch of gold chains and you made your hair black and are you Mace you made your face black and give yourself a mohawk and some mr. t for Halloween and the pictures emerged today what you did when you went door-to-door when you were fifteen or 12 or whatever you were knocking on people's doors and everybody was laughing all your mr. T nobody thought it was racist but the hard case let's say you were racist right I'm so glad I had to Skype with Christian picciolini on my podcast ones who is a Neo-Nazi an out there major problems with Christian picciolini as as as I think you know that I discovered after that podcast but so this is not an endorsement of him sorry Christian

but the the there's a path back I miss you like he is celebrated on the left but he's a former Neo-Nazi and he's you know I discovered him on Sarah Silverman's showing wherever that is Hulu and he's a darling of the left right and Darlene of MSNBC for this Redemption story so but what is the you take someone like any of these politicians who have something in their back story that is ugly my feeling is all there has to be is a transparent and intelligible account of how you are now different of how you can actually honestly look back on this thing and say yeah I'm is embarrassed by that if you think I should be right that's not like that is nothing that that does not represent how I view the world at all now but

there's just there's a the spirit of the time on social media again especially on the left into our total dysfunction politically is to never accept any of that means there is no apology good enough and

or that were there the most cynical possible interpretation of your of your apology so you're just trying to what you're the only reason why you're apologizing is because you want to save your job and that we have to figure out how to say we just need some you know recovery disk that we can reboot from here because it's just not accept this is going someplace terrible and again to look at it to the lens narrowly politically of you know over the next two years it's it's to the massive disadvantage of the left it certainly is but I don't see any way to fix that like with the current climate in his current attitude where people are engaging in this recreational outrage it fits the climate I don't mean I don't know what would have to happen for people to come to some sort of a realization I mean I would have to happen to them like I did to Jane like what happened to Jamie kilstein is it if they turned on him and he's like oh my God this is awful

and then he realized you know I mean I don't know what other things could happen What weird the game we're playing is part of it I mean you and I are in a position to take risks that even the people at the top of Journalism you can't be like Megyn Kelly says one wrong thing and you know it doesn't matter that she's got a 20 million dollar contract she's just she's fired and you look at the thing that she said I mean it was just a question just didn't seem to understand how charged the phrase black face was she just ignorant of that piece of history or something but like either so she just she just she put her foot in her mouth she gave an apology that was just like you know full-blown hostage video College it just like you know just like I am so fucking oh I hear take a sample of my blood and you'll just see my feet and not good enough

actually apology Ne-Yo good thanks for doing that but you know you and I could do an interview with Louis CK right like and just process his coming back into stand-up sex and do it in a way where people didn't like it you just say OK fuk off right this is the conversation we had and I think modeling that more and more and I think I think we have to take those risks and people like us have to take those risks and hope to break the spell by having those conversations in public I would hope that we're having some kind of an impact on it but I feel like we're you know we're throwing buckets of cold water into a volcano I just I just don't know I don't know if it's enough.

more people than the biggest television shows are reaching people aren't aware of this but is it's just a fact so it's it's

so I think that's part of it and then changing the norm somehow engage on social media I think is it is another piece the norm on how we engage in social media I think it's flavored by two things one the immediacy of it the fact that there's no person in front of you don't experience their their anger or Their Fear the sadness when you say something fucked up but also the anonymity and I think an anemone is good in a lot of ways like for whistleblowers people that work in a certain environment where they want to be honest but they would get fired you know where they were very restricted environment but they have maybe a controversial opinion they want to have sex they want to be able to express free speech and they can't they can't unless they do something Anonymous and even sometimes people when they do things Anonymous they get caught and they get in trouble like I remember there's a guy on 4chan who was you know who would say a bunch of fucked up things like a lot of

Badoo and people tracked him down and found out who he was and then sent all of these anonymously authored posts to his employer and he got fired in the sky was a a father and he had children and he was you know supporting his family and now he's struggling to make a living he's got to try to pick up because he wrote some things and not honestly online on a message board and he found Recreation and saying fucked up things and I don't I don't know what the solution is but I feel like an anemone

it encourages less hospitable Behavior did you hear about the professor at a academic conference get into an elevator and making a just a dad joke of as he gets it gets no crowded elevator in an academic conference and see if someone asks what floor and he says women's lingerie please write someone in the elevator was so offended by that that they lodged the complaint and now you know at least a month or so since I heard the story so I don't know if he was fired but I like he was fighting for his academic life over this complaint process

I may just like that that in the fullness of time that is going to seem like some insane which Panic right like there's no such thing as witches and yet people are getting burned alive because if we have allegations of Witchcraft in that kind of situation and we just have to wake up and and so will you and I don't teach and we're not in any University and we're not in that bubble I think the people that are in that bubble in this cave that bubble then go to whatever tech company or whatever business they continue that same bubble like behavior and they want everybody to acquiesce they want everybody around them to behave the way that they've been programmed to think that everybody is supposed to behave and you see that now from a lot of young people you see a lot of young people who are entering into the workforce think that the standards in the Norms that they got enforced upon to my at Yale or Columbia

school like that this is how you're supposed to behave social justice is important and this is real and you have to recognize your privilege you have to check your privilege and you have to do this and you have to do that you have to support trans rights call out culture call out culture is a big one that's it's a big part of an cancel culture you know the gray everybody wants everybody to lose their job you want meme this is the way that things change the way things change is you have to reinforce the fact that she's new standards and it has to be severe repercussions for deviating Jordan goes on about this Jordan Peterson I took one of his pet subjects and that it's a very slippery slope and when you start telling people what to do and what not to do another sleep these these indefensible undebatable standards that have to be reinforced and you can't talk about it like and that's what I was Megyn Kelly she's a real how come and they like it though

I got to hear what a million-dollar job is the crucial moment for me is

why is it that the apology isn't good enough that this isn't this what is by all appearances a sincere apology is no link to real racism has no link to like oh yeah I want to live in a society where black people have it harder than white people right like my weird we want to boycott your business or we wanted you know you know you you we want nothing to do with you right there should be massive so social pressure against those kinds of noxious political commitment but if someone misspeak sort an off-color joke and they were is like they weren't trying to offend anyone and they're just you know they wish they could take it back and like in that links up with a bandage

are you must have seen the Norm Macdonald I'm in that was brutal like he was and he knew he couldn't use the word retard right because it's like that that's going to get in trouble and so it is hilarious and it is right I believe is our on Howard Stern Show and he was a bounty use the word retarded as hell so okay with back now and it's coming back to me he was

defend he was talking about his friend the ordeal that Louis CK has gone through in this just mass of Exile experience raises his massive social shining and he said he was describing it in a way where is he then got accused that he cared more about what Louis CK was going through then the women who felt victimized by Louis CK and that was not his intention at all apparently and so when he went to a to clarify this he was about to say that you'd have to be retarded to think that I cared more about Louis CK's ordeal than the ordeal of these women who have you know felt he tried to course-correct and because he doesn't know what the fuck is talking about he said you'd have to have Down syndrome to it right right which is worse right is more specific and it's what it's like and then you got all these parents

oh my God and so now he's just he's then he was at he showed up on The View right with this this on this apology tour and I'm that's just amazing video to see him on The View surrounded by these these four women who know he's not a bad guy right by there. They're trying to sign up for lifeline and he's so beaten down right and he's so walking on eggshells and you got Whoopi Goldberg in a trying to just just pull him back in a from the Lions and

it should be it should be so straightforward like it does is it part of norms goal to cause pain for parents who have kids with mental disabilities right no I am be like it like that like you could you can look into you can look into this guy's eyes for for 10 seconds and know that this is not the big at you're worried about rifle and

and yet people just want him destroyed over and I don't know if they still do but like that the moment would like it was I think it was real concerned that his his Show get canceled and he like this wasn't just for a second season and I'm very good friends with Adam he's a guy runs The Comedy Store is the store and he's been on Norm show he was on Norms he was like Norm sidekick going to shows of okay if I don't know what right and Norm really suffered from this in a way that you never suffered from anything in his career in terms of like his own personal feeling like he was devastated by by the blow back in the reaction and he wanted to come on my podcast and talk about it but Netflix is like it though

the fact that you can't talk your way out of gas so that's the fucking disease what the problem is not that you can't talk your way out of it the problems they would even let him attempt to talk you out of it because they I think they realize that Norms a maniac and Norm is a maniac in the best sense of the word because one of my favorite comics and he's hilarious but he's also completely crazy in the best way possible Norman I randomly into some strange way randomly were seated next to each other on two separate flights about cigarette smoke out of Yeah Yeah Yeahs used to smoke before you know what I mean it's just what I always wanted a cigarette and then I began cigarettes how long do you quit a cigarette my God that's great we land at LAX he goes right into a store and buy cigarettes I don't know what are you doing

play it on the way out he couldn't get out the door before he he was before it was crazy but many many comedians are incredibly impulsive and this is Norma mean he just what he's got such a Garry Shandling but okay we have to be Wizards levels put this back into the diversity Olympics we need some respect for neurodiversity right there people who are somewhere on the Spectrum taurodontism right there people who are true that there's their spectrums we don't even know about we had we haven't named Drescher and everyone is in some weird spot and people misspeak right you there has to be a way back to say that's not what I meant right like like this is

offending people of this type was not my intention at some level that has to be good enough unless you know we open your closet we see that you've got swastikas not let you know it everywhere and

so that I think we have to we have to hold the line here in a very few people are in a position to be able to do it I mean Netflix Netflix doesn't feel I can do it will Netflix is just so terrified of a continual blowback and they going to start like if we're going to save the show the way to save it is getting stop talking right is just going to just take it out of foot take other people down and stop them in his mouth as well I think one thing that might help to illuminate our understanding of how people behave is what you really enjoy talking about and you really definitely changed my way of looking at things that they're really essentially the concept of free will the very flawed thing and that you have to really take any consideration who person is right now and what was his cause them to be this person right now and that a lot of us are operating on this really bizarre momentum of our past and our behavior and our genetics and life experiences and all these different variables that really

to be taken into account this idea that you are autonomous and you are the director of your own life is true to a certain extent but it's also very complicated much more complicated than we would like to admit and when you're talking about something that happened when you were Seventeen like Brett Kavanaugh or something like that like Jesus Christ you know you're going to hold a 55 man 55 year old man accountable to something that he did when he was 17 it wasn't a crime that and you're not exactly sure what happened this is all very strange is very strange stuff so taking the red pill on

on Free Will makes you much more forgiving of a lot of the stuff you see just everyone is an open system no one offered themselves no one created themselves no one no one can directly regulate the effect of every influence that they had or didn't have his like it you are the totality of what brought you here in the universe is sort of just pushed you to this point in time and the only thing you've got is your brain and it states and that is that is based on your jeans and the totality of environmental influences you as a system have I have had working on you up until this moment and so the next words that come out of your mouth are part of that process now some people find this to be a frankly

demoralizing picture you're telling me to tell me I'm just a robot but you're a robot that is open continuously open to influence influence of Utica internally based on its own processes and top-down control of your Executives function in the brain to your your emotional life say and you're continually open to the influences of culture right now. Cultures is operating system that you're interacting within each moment and whatever is getting in can change you in radical ways very quickly there's no telling how much you can change on the basis of one new idea coming your way right I know I would argue that the that process of change and if I say something that changes your view on anyting

that's not evidence of free will that is evidence of just more causality I mean you don't you don't pick the changes that come your way if I if I get you to see something that you didn't see a moment before you're not responsible for the fact that you didn't see in a moment before and you're not responsible for the fact that you now see it is just like The Dominoes just kept falling right but it does give you this far more patient sense of

one just it just all the causes and conditions that have created this this odious Behavior your your urine out the supposed to react to in the world right like like everything on some level is more of a force of nature then it is something that you need to take personally so I guess there's a hurricane blowing outside we don't respond to it the same way we would respond to you know al-qaida and dropping a bomb on us right through you might it might make the same amount of damage but in the latter case where we have an identifiable identifiable agent right we feel like an hour in the presence of human evil and we have to go kill these motherfuckers right now we may have to kill them right because that may be the only way of putting out this this stopping the damage they they are committed to causing butt and we would kill hurricanes if we could kill them right and we would do you know we would know if I then but the feeling

we have in both cases is very different the feeling you have a tributing ultimate authorship to a person's behavior is super narrow psychologically and ethically and it's you know the feeling of Vengeance right like like you don't you don't you have it you this feeling of vengeance is so natural to get triggered in response to a person it's not natural in response to a wild animal who may have done something terrible writing me like you would like examples of this where people have taken Vengeance on animals and it just looks like a kind of moral dysfunction on the part of the people who did it and there's a famous picture of a an elephant that got hung from a railroad crane I think back in the twenties right so I could visit the circus elephant escaped and it ran you know it should Rampage to the streets and trampled let you know a few people and the and the people in the in the town I don't know where this was a Baltimore some place

was so outraged that they've decided to Lynch the elephant right like and yet that's there's something uncanny about that should have misappropriation of agency to an elephant what it what is it what is a mistreated circus elephant going to do when he gets outing and is terrified and trying to get away from people to people so we have a very different set of books we keep ethically for humans and

but some of it's understandable some of its inevitable but a lot of it gives us more illusions that we don't need to have and it gives it gives us a kind of just an inability to take stock of all the variables that are actually guiding human behavior and react to them and mitigate them and disincentivize them intelligently and Punishment make sense not because people really really deserve at bottom whatever their punishments are it doesn't make sense in a in a record retributive Paradigm it makes sense if it if it's the best tool to discourage dangerous behavior and it works right so it's like you know if you're going to punish people for things I can't control well that's stupid right because if you eat as much as you punish them that you're not going to you're not going to moderate the behavior they have to punish people for things that are actually under voluntary control

and it only it only makes sense if

it's the only tool to do the job and if the moment you had him and this is a guy may have brought this up last time we spoke about free will

but this is really that's what a reductio ad absurdum of it where most people are on this topic the moment we really understand human evil at the level of the brain then we understand psychopathy maybe that's not the totality of evil but let's meet up certainly Center the bullseye

once we understand psychopathy is a neurological condition that's governed by genes and environment and we can we can actually intrude at the level of the brain to mitigate it so like so psychopathy the disease right becomes 8 a.m. and injuries syndrome right that we can fix unless it's a very simple fix I'll say it's a pill is just a neurotransmitter imbalance

in the presence of that breakthrough we will feel very differently about that species of human evil we will not judge it in the same way will it because it will happen is you'll give people the pill and they'll say fuck I can't believe I was at dangerous asshole like I go to thank you for like like I I'm as horrified by who I was before you cured me as you were right and

it is so so so suck psychopathy in the presence of a cure for it would look much more like diabetes than it looks like evil in the present case and people aren't imagining what it would like it would be like to be there what it would be like to actually fully understand the under underlined neurophysiology here and actually have something that means there's no guarantee we'll be able to to deal with it in a simple way but it certainly possible and I'm in the class example is just you like the Charles Whitman example where are you you have a brain tumor that is causing this aberrant behavior in that case everyone everyone sees okay this is not evil this is a brain tumor. C Tower shooter

and so but in the same way that a brain tumor tumor is expository there I think a full understanding of the underlined neurology would be expelled the door again it doesn't mean you in the meantime before you before we get there we'll obviously we have to lock up dangerous people if there's no way to to help them but the more we see the causes the more we review this in terms of just sheer bad luck right like there are there people who when they're adults are quintessentially evil who we who animated play provoked the greatest feeling of Vengeance from us but you just walk back there timeline you recognize it for years old at one point right they were the four year old who was destined to become this terrible person it's an unlucky four-year-old so at what point where is the bright-line that says okay here's the point where

it's appropriate to just hate this person to feel no compassion and it on the other side of this line you should just feel compassion because it's person's unlucky there is no such line and a complete understanding of this life line in in scientific terms would obliterate any line you think you have right it would just be this Cascade of causation and you're adding random this to the picture doesn't help random this is just seeing if somebody's in your brain rolling Dice and influencing your behavior that way well that's that doesn't give you the free will people think they have so there is an ironic Ali there is what seems

on some level deflation Arie of the of the cut the gravitas of the human spirit for people opens the door to at least in my view a far more ethical and tolerant and patient and understanding view of a few human failings and human Frailty that point you can just have a conversation about what's pragmatic what works what helps people change like in this this person over here is doing terrible things is there something we can do to make him a better person well if there is less do that without all the Judgment wouldn't it be amazing if that's how we treated these public shaming events like wouldn't wouldn't it be amazing if we gave someone an opportunity to say this is this is what I did this is how awful I feel about this I would never do that again I'm a different person that was 20 years ago whatever one and and have everybody join in Hay

anyone could be you thank you for being honest about who you are now thank you for evolving thank you for expressing yourself in a way that maybe other people who have also committed really just unsavory or just unfortunate things in the past unfortunate accident past day can feel relieved by the fact that you've grown and evolved to become a better person and that you are at your different thing now and you are the product of all of your experiences you're not you're not this one thing you're not stuck in who you were when you were 16 years old what if you were Marky Mark and you hit that guy with a stick whatever you know whatever he did you got stuck in that spot forever these markets on a Scarlet Letter it's not a mark on your forehead that you keep for Life incident which I find so interesting is it that there is a case where

what is revealing about himself is is pretty amazing right it's like it it's like he just decided okay we we need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for who I used to be right now and I just volunteered this and for me like I like you

I don't actually understand that state of mind I'm in a mini Dabber and states of mind that I can understand it's really understand what it's like to to want to harm somebody and do you know to feel Vengeance and all that but the instrumental violence peace I don't understand I've never felt like okay this type of person wronged me or someone close to me so anytime any person of that type will do right like that like that is such a problem the world over in human history that it is it is just fascinating ethically for someone of his stature to reveal that about himself any put it in terms of of of honor and he was like oh that wasn't on it mean this is what it is what is so dysfunctional about honor Culture by this is what this is what we see more in the South than anywhere else in the country and is what you see basically everywhere you go in the Middle East is Justin this is what Islam inculcate to a degree that's

fairly unmatched in in its Community this notion of honor is does link up with this

tendency to find satisfaction in instrumental violin so I can put but when you when you try to run that software on my brain that just looks like Madness by the idea that any other person will do right of a certain type that's just you know I don't read that resonates not at all right and so

it's just damn interested in the fact that the lesson being taken from this seems to be

this is this should be the end of your career for having talked about this day in the way it is and I get out of apologies if there's some part of the story that I've gotten wrong or not missing missing but it seemed to me that he was always counting this in the horror and amazement appropriate to it to the disclosure like he can't believe he wasn't happening this day of Consciousness and you know it's just an amazing thing to reveal about yourself so yeah and I'm sure he regrets every second of it that's the wrong fucking punchline the thing that should happen is

someone with a lot to lose should be able to say you know how ugly a human mind can be this is an experience I had right this is who I was and you know how much I have to live for and how much I have to lose we have to talk about this kind of mania they can get humming on human brain right we see this 8 every time you open the paper you see someone in the grip of this kind of thing right it even happened to me right I think it's an amazing conversation to start in the fact that the result is just you knowing and an auto defay how is his is the problem we're trying to find a way through at this point isn't it too because there's too many voices I mean there's just so many people at a reacting to it if he's dealing with he's not dealing with three or four or five voices he's dealing with millions of people to get to chime in on this and get a few thousand of those people that are furious at you like you were saying like

doesn't doesn't that doesn't work I was just about to say I was going to make a comparison your podcast with Jack that you're not listening to that they're not reading the comments but he's he's getting this gigantic signal from a huge number of people so this is all over my Google news feed I saw it on Yahoo I saw it and all these different Publications are talking about Liam Neeson's case and so then everybody starts trying again and then the virtue signaling ratio is very high and the anger issues very high and the people that think he's secretly still racist and doesn't want to admit it is very high and it is also the fact that he's a man of wealth and privilege and he's successful and famous and there's got to be a bunch of jealousy that's attached to that and a bunch of people that want to knock him down cuz he's at a very high hell yeah it's a lot going on there

I don't know if I feel for the guy again I don't know him but I just remember

I can't forgive me if I get this slightly wrong but isn't it true that like his wife Natasha Richardson just died in this freak accident and she she she didn't even fall she wasn't moving when she fell she was standing on a ski slope and fell from a standing position and hit her head on the hard snow obviously and I mean it's just talk text yeah it's brutal so and on top of that I believe his cousin or his nephew nephew or niece died the same way not the same way in terms of fell skiing but also hit their head and ride sounds like Jesus Christ as for this guy and obviously there's many people out there that experience so far greater tragedies I'm not trying to quantify but yeah he's you know he he tried to talk about a real thing you know which I do want to talk about a real thing and it and he's given some interview since then where you know he said I look on

racist I'm just telling you I was in such a fucked up state of mind because of this rate that I was willing to do something irrational and horrible but then we'll take it. Eckel people the same people who are calling for his head are prepared to forgive other people who did you do that thing is so dependent like I had Mike Tyson on the podcast things that I got when I said it was a part about I was passing by so many people like fuck that rapist fuck nice guy fuck that and all these different things about him what I wanted to get into him with him was who he was when he was 12 years old when he was a little boy when he met custamado and was taught out of box and was fucking hypnotized and this is one of the the really important things that came out of that podcast was custom auto who's not just this boxing Legend who took in this young kid from the ghetto that didn't have a family but also hypnotized him hypnotizing to be a destroyer specifically was saying to him you

exist the task exist you going to move forward to going to Bob and weave and rip the body and he was programming this kid to get incredible amounts of positive response from violent act violent acts in a boxing ring and that's where he got his identity that's where you got all of his love and so he became this guy and want two things I said to him I said did anybody ever teach you how to turn it off no no we did I'm not I'm no Mike Tyson and I was never like that I was never like that but I was far more violent when I was fighting for more violent far more prone to violence it was my trigger was very short cuz I was a wrecking thinking about it all the time and all the time I thought I probably at a hundred fights I was ready to go like your your brain has it if you're if you're getting kicked in the face and punch in the face a lot and you're doing it through your development on. From 215 for me was 15 from him was like 12 or 13

you have a different way of looking at the world could this is also in the recipes here in the recipes are also you might get knock the fuck out you might get head kicked you might get kicked in the neck with a shin and you know you wake up and your friends are slap me in the face putting ice on you this is all real and when you have that the deposit of that comes from that when you were 12 year old boy and you're hypnotized by this great man was teaching you how to fight in that you're getting so much love you've never got love in your life you've never gotten positive feedback and you're getting so much of it from this and then no one's teaching you how to turn it off and you're wondering why this guy would you grows up to become a fucking Maniac is punching people in the street is just just too crazy and yelling at reporters I'll fuck you in the ass white boy all that crazy shit that he did he was a maniac I mean there's no no one taught him how to reflect there was no Sam Harris app for meditation by Mike Tyson in 1986 you know you was just a maniac

get me one problem we have here is that we we don't have a norm around a good Norm run mental health zero Norms around mental training I so it's a physical training this is a very good analogy between meditation as mental training which sounds just esoteric and Woo new age specious nonsense too many people but he roll back the clock a hundred years physical training made no sense that we know Norms around I'm the only guy lifting a dumbbell was that guy with the handlebar mustache and bow in a leopard you know bikini or whatever he was wearing it is for the Freakshow right and now we have a total understanding of the Norms around physical training is just you're actually a freak if you don't do some kind of exercise

located in Newark is continually evolving but the the framework that the Paradigm the fact that there's something to do to get better physically and that those those changes matter they they you can engage your body intelligently so is to improve it and I'll go across many different variables flexibility strength that's all totally understood and now we're just refined in the protocol with mental training and specifically the training of attention and how you respond to did the uprising if your on negative emotion right that is something that has been going on for thousands of years in contemplatively mostly Eastern contacts mess of me that you know Buddhism really has a lot of specifically an asymmetric amount of wisdom to to Sharon and

get some yeah I mean I'm very excited to be spending more time on it because it's that the locusts have so much of the fragmentation are in our lives now is the smartphone so I can see what this thing is doing to us is continually amplifying not only our desire for approval but the ability to react in a bit this is no reason to hesitate to condemn this thing that you're seeing it like your ear is upwelling of negative emotion you see the out of the outrage you feel when you see something on Twitter right is

it's shortening everybody's fuse right is making road rage more of a kind of a general feature of our of our lives and this is this is all trainable like you can actually you can actually learn that when you suddenly feel anger in response to something that seems to have you happened in the world

if you just pay attention to the experience of anger you just feel the end of the the mirror physiology of it and get out of your thoughts about it actually you notice thought as a process you let that girl you're not continuing to have a conversation with yourself about all the reasons why you should be angrier you should attack this person and you just become interested in in Anger as respond the half-life of the emotion is like seconds but it's impossible to stay angry for very long if you get out of the store you're telling yourself that why you should be angry now there certain situations where is appropriate and it's good to have access to that energy I'm not I'm not advocating that everyone just get lobotomized and not react anything but

until you can actually be mindful of a mindfulness is the technical word for what what this isn't until you can actually get out of the the thoughts and just pay attention to to escape the negative emotion you have zero Choice you're going to stay angry for as long as you stay angry for in people have this experience of being angry for days about things being angry 4 hours there's no way to stay angry for more than moments if if unless you're just lost in the story and it becomes a kind of superpower to do it to be able to say

do I need to be angry about this or like how useful is it to stay angry about this and and and you can just get off the ride are you can literally like you know like I see a tweet from somebody who's trying to destroy my life and I feel this initial Lionel contraction and I can decide how long I want to feel that way for right and that's an amazing thing to be able to do and it's based on a kind of training that very few people know even exist and that end until it against like you're like I'm now the guy in the in the leopard single it right but it's Amore and more at work we're going to understand that this is just has to be part of everybody's toolkit well it would be amazing. Kids in school if you have to learn that when you're learning math and history in high school

6 year olds in the beginning what they're learning is just basic awareness of their in our lives right just being able to name the emotion they're feeling is an amazing capacity and a six-year-old like six-year-olds just acting out something and you're now teaching them to to know in that moment that what's pushing them from behind is sadness or anger or embarrassment was like just to be able just to have that recursive ability to reflect that's already a major gaining in in a kids that age but yeah you can learn it very early that actually this was I was talking about with them

Stephen Fry on on my podcast Steven was very adorable present of just such a nice guy guys I have radiates you no decency but he was being a fairly skeptical of just like why would you ever have to train mindfulness meditation and analogy that came up came up to me the account for me on the Fly there was that it is actually a lot like learning to read in the sense that none of us remember having gone through the ordeal of learning to read right ASL did not come easily to most people and yet now it's just now you if you look at a page of text in a language you understand you can't help but Dakota right it's just an effortless and so that I'm in this is these kinds of emotional tools and it and and cognitive tools just need the ability to self-regulate emotion

by becoming aware of it as a process that is something that I think we could teach kids much earlier and then we would be in the presence of young adults who would naturally have a facility facility for it that where they won't even they would even remember how hard it was to acquire what I was talking about earlier with Mike Tyson and you know what his his coaching and his date mean he essentially got mental coaching on how to accomplish one thing mental coach and how to have the perfect mindset for one thing how to how to how to kick people's asked what he didn't have was mental coaching on how to deal with the pressures of life especially live I mean and almost no one really understands what life is like to be a famous 20 year old heavyweight champion of the world had to be mean at the end of his kid to manage this state when you know you're talking about someone who just six years prior

was virtually homeless and had no love in his life at all and was being hypnotized by some madman who is yuno a boxing wizard who lives in the Catskills and it did and what we were talking about earlier about who you are now versus who you were 20 30 years ago when you meet Mike Tyson now Mike Tyson is the sweetest nicest friendliest guy he's so soft-spoken he's really kind you hugs people he's a really nice guy and I don't and at one point time he was a scary ass motherfuker on the planet Earth is another sort of uncanny valley here in in martial arts training that I spent a lot of time in one year training in martial arts and seeing the world through this lens of violence and potential violence but your training in a way that's never really put in your skills to the test so you're you're basically you're as a as a young man you're living with this fundamental uncertainty as to whether or not you are

we are capable of anything I say or training like fake martial arts right buy or lease martial arts where most of it is a kind of pantomime of violence and it's not being pressure-tested so it's not like you were you're competing and you know what it's like to kick someone in the head and it actually works right it's like this is your sparring but it's all you have to keep everything safe right you know karate headgear looks like you're not still basic uncertainty about what's going to go down on the street if you know if it's in the present of real violence and they are your especially as a teenager you're in this fairly toxic state of It's Always preparing for violence that is still isn't you know in most people's lives pretty low order of probability that is going to occur and yet it's all it's also backed by the sphere of

you know you just got the ego fear maybe you're just full of shit right and you're going to get your ass kicked and shouldn't there shouldn't be any uncertainty about like he's got nothing to prove he's in a bar in somebody says you know what are you looking at a minimum he doesn't have this fear of like if he if he walks away from that challenge he knows he's walking away not because he was scared maybe he he's going to lose a fist fight with this guy right is the best box for Honor that moment it's it's that he said he's got way more Blues than the other guy like a rolling around in the parking lot so it's so there's this this this is very unhappy place it a lot of martial artists are in which is

you know they don't actually know what they are they're capable of and their living all the time with this this beat up trying to training software run in their heads and it's it's it's a weird face of being well it's one of the things that so great about Brazilian jiu-jitsu exactly but you are absolutely going full blast and you have a 100% confidence when she reaches a certain level and you could do that to an untrained person within its frame you are pressure testing it and you know that it works now you don't I would argue there are people still lose sight of the fact that in reality people can people punching in and out training lot of punching or defense in their weapons and there's a guy's friend who can come up and start kicking you in your head so you could like how good idea was it to pull guard when you know someone else can walk up but you know yeah it's within it's within his purview yeah you're not that you're working out all of your Illusions and that's

yeah that's that's one reason why so many was find addictive and I was just so nice that a lot of people carry around including you know that there's some grown men that have never been in a fight in their life and they get a couple of beers and then they start talking crazy shit you don't even know how to fight it's like someone who wants to jump into a NASCAR racing ever driven a car like I don't even know what that means to be a human being is complicated to be a man and in the face of altercations with other men and is uniquely complicated the kind of altercations that men get into the kind of bravado and chest coughing and shit talking and the consequences of those things like you were talking about Liam Neeson his wife falling down and getting her head a friend of mine was working in a bar and in Long Island and

the bouncers got in a fight with some guy and punch the guy knocked him out the guy fell back hit his head off the Caribbean died and that happens all the time when people get knocked out they hit their head on the ground they died and I did when I before I had a podcast eye and I was getting my midlife crisis took the form of me getting really back into martial arts again for after 5 Hiatus and maybe 25 years I had a a lawyer who focused on a self-defense law but they're basically screwed and then punch someone and that person fell down on hit a fire hydrant I so they're they're trying to beat a murder rap you know and so I just had him in a blogpost had him walk me and I had a bunch of a two people comment

ask questions as well I had Matt Thornton to the who's John kavanagh's Jiu-Jitsu coach asked questions in this blog post and I had to Roy Miller who's open self-defense trainer just just to try to flush out all of the things you should be thinking about when you're the kind of person who

use at all preparing for the possible eventuality of violence because people who trained with guns are on own guns or carry knives or do martial arts don't actually understand

what happens when you don't look like they agree to fight somebody or they like like like that like it unless you unless you're MO is in this should be your Mo to avoid violence at all virtually any cost right like you're always just trying to leave the premises if there's some sort of challenge that could become violent if that's not your your Mo you are just wandering into potential situations where you can find yourself in court for having shoved a guy and he you know fell into the street and got run over right now you're the guy who's looking at the prospect of going to prison for murder or second-degree murder and so anyway I had him walk me through all of it the ins-and-outs of all of the fascinating conversation because he had their people who

you know their extreme cases there are women who have shot they're totally crazy husband who is like waving a baseball bat at their heads and they're in prison for years for this you know I look just real miscarriages of Justice were like that like you would think that they would be very easy to prove that she was in fear for her life in this case and this was a legitimate use of lethal Force it's just so hard when no one's there. If no one's there by Witnesses or if you know it's a public thing that happens in this video of it but you know someone does something to someone and no one's around you punch someone and they they get knocked out and they die and you say no this guy was threatening to kill me he's chasing me he was threatening to kill me I was terrified for my life he lunged towards me I saw the opening I took it and now he's dead you to go to jail forever I mean that's that that's a reality I mean you should absolutely without a doubt avoid violence at all costs

you should also know how to fight that important very important in whatever martial art or arts in most cases very little time spent training avoidance yes right and that's real missing piece because that is the most important thing to train you know especially if you have real skills right especially if you're walking around armed right and the one in interesting psychological corrective concealed carry does for many people is that

once you're walking around with a gun you realize what the problem of any altercation can become right like no you're not going to get into a shoving match with somebody if you're wearing a gun in your belt because you like it if it if that escalates you're pulling out your gun and then if it's a decision whether to kill somebody right now so you know I don't have a ton of experience in this area but an idea for all of the firearm training I've done with people I just get you know you know I know you like former SWAT operators who are just out whether there

constantly armed and

these are like the last guys who are going to get involved in anything I mean they used to be cops but now they don't even feel any burden to police anything like they're just they're retired and retired right because they just recognize how a Haywire anything can go for them if if any process of conflict get started when the shit hits the fan and things go crazy it's it's very difficult for people to maintain a rational state of mind and things can escalate so quickly things can turn to violence so quickly especially with a rational people are untrained people or people that aren't aware of consequences or maybe can't process it well but in the crucial piece which you know how many

seasoned fighters in and near professionals don't have Andre Rieu I would think many don't have is this or this this Valley where your ego concerns are not worked out as like when using when you've when you feel the emotional burden of a loss of face and someone says something you know nasty to him or his wife

Jocko doesn't have anything to prove a Choco knows he's a badass right so Jocko knows that he just time to get out of the bar because he doesn't want to deal with a psychopath who doesn't know who he's dealing with but someone who's not trained like Jocko right could feel that backing down especially back in town in front of your wife or your girlfriend that is such an ego blow that either the temptation to get into this this monkey dance will the other person is just it's impossible to recover from a very dangerous game all the time and never seen so many people get into it. Just don't they don't have any cards is that a completely terrified of heights housing prices like at the fuck out of here before this goes bad when it goes sideways and men are just we have thousands of years of awful DNA

where violence route 2008 had to know what to do with your jeans are never going to make it to the next stage

which is this is a controversial thing to say and I got in trouble or one of my podcast guess Gavin de Becker security

girl that got in trouble my podcast talking about the Primacy of of intuition here like our intuitions are actually really good for detecting something that makes us uncomfortable about another person right and this is this becomes Politically Incorrect really fast right because he is like you know if you see a guy on an elevator who makes you uncomfortable in a Gavin's advice and I think it. I think the real Saint advice is just don't get on but there many people who get on just because they want to prove they're not racist and I actually know someone who was in a situation like that and didn't work out well and

so maybe intuition is bad for so many things we we have terrible intuitions for statistics and probability Theory and it's like we're over in your whole careers and Nobel prizes have been won on you know who people like you know Danny conoman

have to have shown us how is not only that our intuitions are bad for for these judgments but the reliably bad we can understand there's a Spare the structure to help out there but for judging people who are dangerous to give us a good to make the make the hair stand up on the back of your neck for reasons we can't understand you know where the eye contact was wrong or the or the or the gist of the way they were little you know what I mean just like I was called a witness check you know like someone comes up to you and engages you and then they look. They just probably look just check for Witnesses right now like that people don't aren't aware that that's even a thing right but went like that body language

is very Salient to us and and their hundred things like that that that we immediately feel that the prompt you know it into a response and these are intuitions that are we in a from self-defense point of view are worth listening to it cuz the worst case scenario is you wind up being a little rude there sorry I can't talk but people are you know people are very dogmatically being trained to ignore those kind of those kinds of intuition what do you think those intuitions our intuitions are like when you meet someone you go with those person feels dangerous what is that what's happening what is a big one in the week and what people do with their eyes to say this is a major variable and just how we feel that you know the relationship is going but

it's

and is it that are micro Expressions that we notice in people that we're not aware of noticing you know cuz like this just there's this is this is not well understood and we're bad judges of whether someone is telling the truth and this week this has been fairly well studying their people who believe in people work for the FBI or not you know much better than chance and detecting whether somebody is lying but it's just we get so much information by in a body language and being in somebody's presence and we get it so fast that it's again and where do we understand or not their evolutionary reasons why this is so I mean if we evolved for anyting as social primates we have evolved to detect stuff that just is a precursor to Violent content in another's right I think it's just gaze or do you think you can send the energy to someone

there's certain it's that people make when they're thinking about hitting you up in like there's like a twitching this to them I got while pulled back like almost like a spring or a feeling you get around going to hit people in all of that still Vision but there's no I mean who knows we're detecting pheromones really have to wait to be detecting people's level of stress and we just have to end up there but if this goes beyond is beyond just physical violence this is just you know detecting Psychopaths who are manipulative men are there ways to spot people lying

Jama just another their tails like you know too much information you don't like people who are giving you Superfluous is Superfluous information as if overcorrection cuz they're anticipating that you're going to doubt their story and so they're filling in like blanks that you don't even need filled in right and it ended submitted her patterns to to certify that but then again we we pick up on a lot of stuff without consciously being aware of what's going on we just know that it's like not a person I want to spend any more time with right but you know there may be more of a literature on this and then I know about but a lot of this is not well understood and me to call Ackman you have done a lot of stuff on my micro Expressions that goes back probably 30 years at this point and you're there are people who are outliers were a great at detecting micro Expressions were they

and I really just don't understand what's going on but it's not Edwardian and a I eventually will be if it is not there already will be much better than we are doing this I'm so scared of that cancer scare them getting that wrong micro expressions are funny because they remind me of microaggressions which is one of the idea of the weird or social justice Warrior things like what things used to be to slight where someone was just like slightly rude not even so just like where do you come from right I dare you question my authenticity you know. It's weird that that's actually accept it actually pushing in certain schools that microaggressions are real or real thing I'm Christina Hoff Sommers just wrote something about or she she put something on her Twitter today about a Yale article that was written today but it was put out today about document

Politically Incorrect Behavior so that someday in the future when someone is running for congress or is up for Supreme Court or something like that if you could go back to their college days and remember when they said something right mean to the one of the examples this woman uses in this post was compared to a woman to a large animal woman's body to large animal in a private text message that she should have OA I should have asked after I should have never end calls this guy in this this article white boy this white boy does this in the white boy with a sacrum smile does that like which is like overtly racist I could just the expression like in the way that she's describing it like I said this evil character slowly makes his way to run the world and he's been engineered since the time he was in college what is going to happen just by

Japanese place on everyone's to use of the tools do you like it like that the people are not diligently scrubbing their their digital history and their main Factory no way to actually do it and write and so and so they're just the trailing end of the day they're not even aware of what they're trailing and social media so so maybe maybe that is that will just be a cure for the problem because it a certain point will be dealing with people who were basically born. They were born on Facebook but I don't even have a moment like they've got their baby picture there and everything that followed and

then it'll just seem completely untenable like list of everything that everyone has said that dumb thing you know that can be can be taken the worst possible way and and if they're going to be hung from that then you know no one will survive what seems like that's what we're dealing with right now in a lot of cases you know

what I think is really important what you were saying earlier was that there has to be some sort of path to redeem themselves that they're there has to be some accepted way that someone can go about redeeming themselves when we can allow them to re-enter Society we are constantly bringing it up or judging them by a tour always attributing their past Behavior to who they are right now look at this should be so simple but look at my collaboration with maajid Nawaz right so I was scheming to form a global caliphate who did the organization he was part of me wasn't a jihadist thankfully he wasn't actually blowing people up but he was trying to get nuclear weapons in in Pakistan into the hands of the worst possible theocrats write this was his magic with all of his Charisma and all of his energy and it's like you know my cat is fantastic

any used to a orderly nefarious purpose in my world right now if you know how much that isn't an issue for me and Mike and I are just buddies now right so all I need is a clear path that he took out of the darkness to understand why he's a valid collaborator now and yeah actually on on that point I got people breathing down my neck to tell you that we're tell your audience is a powerful you are Joe Rogan that they are documentaries coming out on that our collaboration and it suits out now and so I can be found. They say it's your call Islam and the future of Tolerance nice and it's it's it's not bad it actually captures the spirit of our collaboration very well and if you don't see it if only it is to recognize how awesome moderate is cuz my dad is just a superstar and the scariest thing about the state of public opinion in the Muslim World from my point of view is just how

how hard a job he has to just to have a conversation in that community and he is just being a he's so marginalized and he's so reasonable you know but come back to that Original Point

here's someone who was whose life was purposed toward what would I view as we are one of the most toxic projects I can think of right now give the nuclear weapons to the people who want to die as Martyrs right that's the project and maajid is just an absolutely awesome collaborator now right so there's like we have to pass to be a path through some same conversation to a reboot for a lot of folks is that you are not really being honest but you who you are currently you just want an excuse for to be relieved of these cases like it's clear they take me to Norm Macdonald case is just utterly clear right and I'm even even met and Megyn Kelly's case I literally clear

like I don't think of unless she's got some white supremacist in a side gig that I am not aware of she's just like listen I'm clueless I sent you I didn't realize they were looking for an excuse to get rid of her honestly right but I think even if they weren't I think I still very likely would have been the end I'm in so I can even if her show it had better ratings still that could have been an unrecoverable error when she was black when I got it it doesn't work the other direction but the Reverse Racism and she said what's so bad about blackface

surely would have been easier and I know ya ya ya galbi Diana Ross who I am I got to think they can get away with it but it's the thing that happened with Louis CK and Ricky Gervais and Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock that was because I remember when that aired I think it was 2011 and I remember there was nothing around that it was out that it was totally fine using the n-word

the thing it was too kind of dishonest about the re scandalizing of it was that in the context of that conversation it was framed by

the fact that they really were referencing one of the more famous pieces of comedy in history and there they were referencing Chris Rock's act using the n-word are there black people in their ends yeah and you Louis aren't in right now and then they're so they're talking to in that context and it was interesting how that almost midnight blue back against Ricky and and they're just looking for more things to be mad at Louis for yeah but it took a lot of shit for that because he didn't do was no blowback yeah yeah yeah what is it is interesting times I mean it's probably the most interesting times of our lives in good ways and bad ways

run the front lines or something, I don't know if you get enough credit for this but you have like you pushed out into the space that no one even knew existed and you're lucky I honestly didn't even know what a podcast was when you know like I learn what a podcast was when I got invited to get interviewed on your podcast the first time it's awesome wooden what you've created here so thank you it's all it's an accident and I just stuck with it on it and kept going back to YouTube Sam Harris latest gentleman

thank you everyone for to turn into the show and thank you to our sponsors thank you to expressvpn you can get protected with expressvpn for less than $7 a month and you can try it out now and get 3 months for free at expressvpn.com Rogan that's expressvpn. Com Rogan for 3 months free with a one-year package visit expressvpn expressvpn.com Rogan to learn more we are also brought to you once again by the cash out the number one finance app in the app store available in the app store or Google Play Market and it comes with the cash card and when you download the cash app and the referral code Joe Rogan all one word you will get $5

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