#1253 - Ioan Grillo

The Joe Rogan Experience #1253 - Ioan Grillo

February 26, 2019

Ioan Grillo is journalist who has spent the last 18 years reporting on the drug war in Mexico. His books "El Narco: Inside Mexico's Criminal Insurgency" and "Gangster Warlords" are available now.

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my guest today is a journalist and an author his name is Yohan Grillo and I'm reading his book that he gave me it's called it's I believe this is his latest call del Narco inside Mexico's criminal Insurgency it is a fascinating subject I really really enjoy talking on this man has been living in Mexico as a journalist for 18 years covering this and we had a hell of a conversation I hope you enjoy it as much as I did please welcome you on Grillo

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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how many people get your name wrong when I try to pronounce it well so many people I don't even care anymore cuz I was a funny name but in Mexico is even stranger name so I just normally make it in a my second name Guerrilla which in Spanish is griot yes he's in Fantastic Four a really he's the stretchy guy he's made them a little bit more a little bit more how did you live in Mexico City so I came to Mexico or went to Mexico Islandia 2002 round for a few years in the UK wanted to get into journalism

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so I found one way to get into it was to start working in a foreign country rod and gun to my local newspaper in what can go to a foreign country and start working I know how to romantic order about Latin America think I'll be like the movie Salvador times movie from the 80s romantic comedy about running around with gorillas fighting ships arrived in Mexico in 2009 English language newspaper 27 when I first left the UK a city's wild place so packed it's the charge of I've only been there twice for UFC events yeah but everytime I'm there I'm just shaking my head like I can't believe how is traffic works it's crazy traffic nobody cares about Red Light Green Light pendejo

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I tried different tactic not just want to relax and not get angry before but yeah I started up when I ride this bike motor Spanish Spanish which is like oh yeah and then I like the Mexican Spanish ride ride ride so when did you start getting into Narco journalism so romantic about why might cover in Mexico or Latin America in the last century Che Guevara last

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the right away when I write my breakfast first. I grew up around drugs in the UK so going back to the old people taking drugs had a few friends who died from heroin overdoses back then full people New Daughter heroin overdoses

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I had a sister who went to became

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a schizophrenic smoking a lot when she was the Bill of drugs being smoked around that time as well as a Moroccan hashish there's a connection you know when we've been exploring that a lot lately been to the marijuana debate between Alex Bernstein and dr. Mike Hart from Canada and we talked about it and I know people that have had that happen to them where they've had schizophrenic or psychotic breaks because of just a massive doses of marijuana and especially people that don't do it or people that do it too much for too long it does happen I had that debate that's what I mean I don't know

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a lot of people smoke weed now when will my sister had a breakdown when she was 18 and I was 16 at a time and when I came out it to find out what's in my my my grandmother had an issue with schizophrenia and I think it was a time bomb waiting to go or if it was how much the the the hatch was involved in that well so I don't really know the signs of it but then we come back so so I've been around a little drunk before I'm so when I arrived in Mexico and I should be one of the first arriving in Mexico I ended up hanging around with some some people never smoked a little crack in Mexico Beach smoking smoking crack and I was like some kind of strange people smoking crack down there

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so when I go to a job in the local newspaper in English and how that link to the cartels are in very soon just very very quick I just fell in right away like salary things happen by accident I just fell into covering the crime beat this is got back to 2001

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so 2000 wanted to send me the Chapo Guzman escaped from prison

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then I was calling about the into a great journalist from twana Jesus blancornelas Roll legend from Tijuana to survive the shooting by by cartels and phoning him up all the time just getting him and it's give me information give me tips and that's how to restart one of them. Big store at Dillon's back in those days was the court martial arts in journals for drug trafficking and that was really what it began that has been generals for drug trafficking how much of an issue is that corruption must be unbelievably ramping so I mean corruption even the strong enough word for sometimes I couldn't State capture crazy 18 years of covering the stuffed mrs. the very beginning about a nurse in a whole lot of fur crazy stuff in that time but like just to get a sense of how bad the corruption is or what it really means on on on on the ground level that

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like days policeman policeman you get to know the place Minnesota and Townsend City

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it's hard to know you know how old military guys are politicians and then you going to believe these are good people going to believe this good placement out there who really want to stop crying so there's one policeman his nickname was Paisa Tyson like Mike Tyson his nickname was Tyson Susan well-built plug well-built guy and he was friendly and then it came out that he was actually a drug cartel member ranking member the drug cartel and he actually confessed a baby 17 with a police the federal place when I go I'm going to confess on camera and he confessed know only was he turning a blind eye

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Not only was a Cairn out murders he was training the young kids how to capitate people how to cut people up and he's expecting in graphic detail how he like you know how they nice to cut limbs off how to get young people trying to cut limbs off to get them to lose their fear so that's the level of corruption. Replacement would not really who they are

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that's one of the crazy things about a corruption down there did you have any hesitancy in getting involved in Narco journalism knowing that something I would imagine that's one of the most dangerous

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Avenues to pursue in journalism so this was involved in government so like it was still like a crime and she would not move so I began to cover these things and then around 2004 I got a job for the Houston Chronicle out of Houston Texas I was covering of the stream cover in Mexico for them

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and I flew up to a lot to Nuevo Laredo and there was a tough War beginning that we just worded beginning of the drug war which is torn Mexico pop began on the border with Texas in the city code Nuevo Laredo over the bridge from Laredo Texas back in 2004

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so there's a lot of interest from the deed the Texas newspapers what was going on there's a whole bunch of buddies party not that

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innocent-looking but innocent looking at myself then an innocent look no more Mexicans live in the recent beside go to the place I drive to Monterey Rent-A-Car I just drive the car to know Barretto

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the bus by myself announced it was don't do that was just too much crazy stuff going on but you can just do that

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so that was nice of crazy stuff like what kind of crazy stuff I mean now you can get stopped by an armed group driving on those roads you could you could just drive along and I could be a group of guys with guns. Call get someone out to take you away I mean it's a whole people a lot more careful about the way you now know when you move around the roads that you can be very careful how you move and how you plan this stuff you didn't want to buy yourself any places

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so it's about that time between this was happening and there was these bodies turning up not trying to figure out why and I know that was wrong guy interview to is a head of Chamber of Commerce

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I'm on a totem of rain sting guy about couple weeks later he became the chief of police for the city and they all seems that are you scared are you scared about being killed the most people get killed

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and he was shot that 6 hours after he gave that statement

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they shot him dead and that was one of the real ma cuz it's something really strange is going on in Mexico something is like going to a Rock to Mexico and then from there it kind of just escalated and escalated and start with why the other media Time magazine New York Times different people enough for what I said I can't do this, just right and you stood by his car right books about this stuff is big is complicate it must be immensely complicated to the people that live there it seems like there's no Escape I mean if you can't turn to the police the police are the cartel there's the car tell the police all the politicians most likely if they're alive have to be compromised yeah I mean they spend some very very desperate people and I mean this being some inspirational people as well fly in this is been heroes are our heroes

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I'm just get more of a sense of what that means on the ground as well and some of the things you see some of the things that stay with me and I prefer a while it was quite romantic covering this is not why I'm covering I'm going to be places where Chapo Guzman is from now look up to his Village from its mother meets Family I'm wrong about these these crazy people but then you start seeing the human pain in all of this one many stories does the stick with me was a mother in Monterey High School teacher know when you have armed guards leaving around that was her life expectancy of a population attack in Oslo population

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I want mother she was in a home with a two children in Monterey and a is looking to not just chilling in the house and then the door broke down about 15 guys in bulletproof jackets who came in blue mom's taking stuff from the house

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how the family when I pin them down they said to the mother

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which of your children is the oldest

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I choose not to know how to reply I'm in which of your children the oldest Hydro how do I reply to that just couldn't speak a nail distancia to Psalms 118 115 the ATM

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I he said I'm I'm I'm the oldest so I can you come with us

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I took him away

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the next day she got a phone call saying not to what your son give us about money we give him back so she went around to my relatives just called the money she want to get the money right away

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she turned out with the money case of money and then they just cut off the course and she hadn't heard from him since

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and I can sing High face the devastation

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on the paint that I just couldn't can go more life after that and just not knowing not having a close you and I met her

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when I went to report on one of the worst atrocities which is 49 Boris hooving decapitated who had the hands and feet, I hope he dumped on a road I know it's taking some Morgan Monterey and arrived in the mortgage was inside the motor smelling the smell of The Dead Boys it's kind of weird smell you get from like decaying Flesh on a sweet smell you get from when you're around those places where you can smell that the bodies Decay I was inside the morgue and I came out she's outside the morgue and she was trying to see if if her son might be among those people don't like boys

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but you know it's it's so insane that this is right next door to America and there's so little effort put on doing something about it including doing something to mitigate the influence of illegal drugs by making drugs legal and that would be one gigantic step your you're not going to stop people from doing drugs mean this is an illogical ridiculous approach I don't think people should do most of those drugs but when you make drugs illegal only criminals are going to sell those drugs and this is exactly what you have right next door to America's richest unbelievably insane that there's this amount of crime a drive away from San Antonio yeah I'm talking about that issue with the money and the economics of this

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I mean you look up cocaine so you could tell you whether the boys full main drugs now it's fentanyl coming in as well and making it in the making of bringing free classes making it as a live one lap I was in no gallus thought you and a half past 11 no gallus brought the Buddha don't make me have a lot of their making it a full moon drugs historically marijuana heroin cocaine and crystal meth goes back a hundred years like so similar which is the Cradle of Mexican drug trafficking to the mafia-like sonorous in a Mexican drug cartels where it began

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Arabic on right to go back to 1914 you had in the US to Harrison's narcotics tax act when they made the restricted opium and cocaine in United States I from 1915 it began across borders flight from Mexico to the United States to Chinese Mexicans that were Chinese immigrants arrived in Mexico that began doing this a-ball opium from from China planted in in Mexico City receive you with Chinese Americans son is very educated the case from 1916 investigate the documents by this case with those Chinese Mexicans tracking the Chinese Americans here in California and at that time there was a governor of California in Boat Ride by then

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what is the solution is there any solutions to this while I mean I think I should get for a weary you want to see Solutions you want to find Solutions and you want to come to the album is finding Solutions in can you want to justify why you doing this doing this for her to tell the story to look for solutions to this worry about that there's three areas I believe the observations first I do agree with you on the idea flocked course hero phone

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again it's tough uphill battle, not going back to 2012 r o editorials about in a one of the reasons you should legalize marijuana is because if the marijuana come from Mexico which goes to cartels which paste Killers which pays for corruption

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bought the same time marijuana legalized in the United States and the violence that she just got worse and Mexico so you basically issue of heroin cocaine crystal meth Fentanyl and you go to cartels going to a bunch of other rackets now they're still crude oil so big deal they still billions of dollars worth of crude oil when was down there from pipelines can tap into a pipeline or something and you have to tap drill two holes in the pipeline you drill a hole to put take the hole to put water ready to try and keep it equal to the pressure the same W sorts of crazy video recently in are in a small town in Mexico where a bunch of it was a tap open every bad tap it was a spreading out and a bunch of people lining up just to pick up the oil from the pipeline

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unexploded I just it was just a crazy death toll from from from now. But I do believe we have to talk about this being a table I'm in America no one knows what it was American spend on drugs but as the survey I wish you can find online if you just got to talking what do Americans spend on illegal drugs on it is an estimate of a hundred billion dollars a year

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so you know that I'm out of money I've been messing estimate I mean it could be right and I saw tonight around number for like a hundred billion dollars a year now you think about that pumping into these cartels year of yam decades and how much. You know if it's 30 billion about going down to Mexico and over 10 years 200 billion every 30 Years cuz truthfully and dollars that we recreate this this monster in drug policy reform I mean I mean rehab they want to needs it because heroin addicts by Lorde heroine say everyone you say from that you couldn't I know you could stop a lot of heroin and I love that money with this money goes to these people who is doing this stuff

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but a second there I believe is his social work in the neighborhood

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I like I told you I've done a lot of interviews with sickly with the Assassins with the killers in cartels in Mexico and a noose around Bland americraft and driving around Jamaica I'm Brazil Central America Colombia to control of the kids especially

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I'm when I sit down with the more I can get the life story of how did they first get into this cuz you know born doing this stuff

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I'd often I'm in some cases it is the different profiles there's some of them

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and I just won one guy from this is Dan Honduras which is also crazy situation

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there's a guy that I got to see met him before I met him when I was doing the reporting down their back in 2015 and he was driving for us and he was also carrying a gun to help take the solution is to Erica. Pooping hippo for penis is short for

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and then I met him again off doors and going to tell his story it's kind of typical of these guys

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I'd he described how he been abandoned as a kid by parents and had this rule hate that he had with the world lock and I just fuck the world

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I need to squat the first time to he

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car. Murders and it will be carried out like I talk it. My oldest hits it done and decapitations you've done this kind of crazy stuff

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for the first time the counter a mud was part of the freakiest when he was a full team and they got a

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family that went to a house can you watch the ball family on the butcher the family

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I need a scribe when you described. I didn't describe later on you know how he became a high killer

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and the thing about him like some of these people you think they're so I can Pat's they just they really don't care but some of them really do have these conflicts inside the heart think it was someone on all this about the interview

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had he had his heart at the balance that some of the Dolls evil but also has been a victim as well as victim and victimizer and you feel. Pain Simpsons and he is himself a peanut

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but I always accusing I wonder how you get social work to reach people from a very young age because I've never cruel to do I'm not crying when at 12 13 years old he butchered his family is 14 wait was he stealing money from them was so Disturbed that was he said that he was hanging around with these kids are no way there's some money in the house

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we can get somebody in the house so they went in there and killed his family

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and it turned out those my money that the reason the allocated said go that was cuz he died sleeping living with his family and he said that being abusive to him so he wanted to like they have revenge on his family for what was so pretty sick of how is that when he was describing it was they had this family and they would distort them defending themselves

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they would like Taylor one by one lap in the manner in a room and take the one by want to take them out but to them that wants to know what's going on

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I think I'm in the action itself but how like teenage kids can think about that stuff

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and then later on when he was talking about the decapitations he was talking about they get contracts with decapitation inside the cut like I say that we want this killing we wanted to pick up that the guy we wanted to stop you want to see video of the garden captech we won that we want to go to suffer

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I'm money hacks the heads off their sometimes to be a moment when I want to live cuz I have them

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I'm going to Buddy's to lock twitching like I said I can still see like was a little bit nervous about chicken like a headless chicken is in the pot when it's to lock twitching a bit even off today and I have lost at 7 at connections there

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now when you're interviewing these people how nervous are you I mean this seems like if you're putting all the stuff down you could implicate them in some crimes and it seems like it would be very convenient for them to try to get rid of you so this is a whole bunch of different situations around interviews are some jobs are going to be two people in prisons a lot of time in prison and I just told me years to get to lot of people Festival in Managua it wasn't like I went too fast I doing this I was loud and how do I get how do I reach them in stock around the drug rehab places talk to people in drug rehab I'm going to prison and inside out what is so I did a lot of interviews in oven in one prisoner go to know what prison is in a Christian Evangelical win there and they were gone through his weird Christian Christian a discovery of God there an intruder on the street off of life through contact Wild Country contacts on the street

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I'm in Honduras about Greg contact with a friend is a journalistic wrapping his neighbors with all these guys it's not like these guys from Corona

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this different different things in a vaping bad situation think anybody cop in this has had some bad situation sometime people get angry people threaten them inside for the people

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I want things yet be very long time EST very stringent about protecting your identity and really serious about that because it's been cases where various cases for other people interviewed

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Achilles and shown the identity either through the showing their face or through like some dumb thing being shown and I have been murdered in a butchered off trees like to give me the interviews or like other things that happened I've been threatened to some of the family or arrested or so so you really going to protect people

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in a way it sounds when they talk and stuff and I don't really feel nervous when I go to these people up for a film on that was hit that just because he's like all the other big shot it's a different different thing when when you like talkin to

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first met you start with easy questions like in if you start talkin about how I know how you and I. Schumann human beings and people of color. Complicated and I haven't just interviewed in a booster got drunk with somebody's people in home around with some of these people but I'm trying to get closer like I spend time to try and understand their world a bit more

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I mean several days several days you like me now so you didn't see him again hang out working to hang out with him in different places not doing if you just believe

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places it's complicated world for them is that normal teenagers if phlegm is normal it is what they've

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what they've lived what I've been through what's happening around them I'm in this level of murder just happened to the Apostle an American that's crazy but in these areas has anybody talked to other people who were just on the edge of this one of the family members involved in this and it's just been living this man is the levels of violence violence

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I'm because you look up some of the worst cities like San Pedro Sula Honduras Caracas I'm C. Juarez and these are places which have levels of violence which are like way worse than medieval Europe below place in medieval Europe I mean look at the figures 400,000 because some of them have over a hundred 400050 100,000 a medieval Europe Italy cities would like 20 behind a thousand so that way was not Way West in the wild west the night now there are some place in the United States the daylight I would not do some research recently in Baltimore Maryland I know it's going to be interesting to compare that to Latin America

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I'm not high levels for a 400000 that's not the same level of significant still more than Medieval Europe yeah wow Baltimore is worse than Medieval Europe after the some professors they've never met and I like you get like when I say whoa Jerusalem in this time of the night. Really dig down exact time that they was outbreaks of violence and killing inside the overall average

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I mean like the level I think in Chicago comes out around 1 or something so it's not now the city now these things about to fall into the United States compared to that America in Baltimore is is is is it significant Peter Feliz bubble city of Baltimore is a very smooth lights with a talking about send Mexico you haven't are states that are like what do you want in on top countries in Latin America was in the u.s. attempt to be neighbors with your violin I'm so if you really focus on the southside of Chicago it's probably similar levels to Baltimore thinking Eiza but if you look at the whole city for Neighbors to the pretty safe in Chicago as well through all of this time that you spent down in Mexico have you seen it you've seen you seem to get worse and worse so that was

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did the escalation happen in 2008 was the first big escalation so you had there was a steady buildup it was happening and then in 2006 do you have the president Felipe Calderon

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play the military Crackdown on drug cartels

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I also. With those is big response and things started really getting out of hand already seen violence escalating before running and I my ID and my kind of theory behind this is the time you hide in Mexico back in the twentieth century more of a top-down centralized government controlling everything you had to PRI in power and they were I'm basically pulling into corruption so I packed them that have the drug cartels working for them

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an interesting story gone by then to the 19-date 970 store in a book or drug lord by Terrence pop by Hyuna Vida a drug trafficking the 80s

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when he got the his job is to hit half of the plants which the head of a certain territory

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when you got the job he went with the state police at a time I said I want to become the head of the Plaza

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and I took him in and tortured him for two days and light and I beat the crap out of him put electric shocks on his nuts trying to one of the other pictures at their next cut put water laced with chili in his nose snot I want to see pics of your whole face Burns is it like torture techniques they have

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I know the two days well done you survive well you've got the job

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so you know what it shows is that the police have the upper-hand V controls if they would like okay we control this where I can and then we can fuck around and torture and kill drop out this when we like

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lock the presidency I'm in there was an in that time Carlos Salinas became president 94 his brother Raul Salinas de the Swiss investigators bank account city of 500 million dollars in bank accounts

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we say good night at 8:30 to swap my to Rob's the presidency this was being run when Mexico change democracy so when I arrived in Mexico is changing their democracy looks like it's going to happen free markets going to happen in the winter good days of the 21st century now

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but what happened was you look through the cool control shift so you had a bunch of different political parties and they were fighting over the drug trade and now always the one time in Colorado when the federal police had a shootout with the municipal place they were fighting each other for because I work for different drug cartels so that's what started but then you had the techniques not attending wedding

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wasn't really a big deal it was very very ready used up until around 2006

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I'm one of the first incident was in Acapulco in 2006 here in about June 2006 not my opinion off the inspired by the al-Qaeda to call we in a video with your shining full Mexican TV will not come out in that decapitated the gun The Rock

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I need the cap that first with two policemen are decapitated later that year in September 2006 there was 5 has their vote on put this codons blue and his thing is became just escalating just became his kind of like using this Tara public Tara

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so 2006-2008 was a big escalation and then 2011-12 like crazy and then it subsided a bit in the pub Defiance carpet less public and it was more like he didn't like Mass grave stopping at the worst mass grave just been discovered so far

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I'm was in Veracruz now I've been to the side of it and it was 250

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bodies were found in this mess grave in one place and it was right next to a Housing state and this family is who saw one of the saddest things was you see you see that kid is bicycles and basketball hoops and stuff right next to this and the field next to that they dug up 250 bodies and the smell would like Eminem taking to this housing Estate o clock to dream of becoming middle class that was he the kind of something this house I'm staying right next to this violence but the crazy stories about the weird thing is I love Mexico lives animality around this is not what you see is not what you say every day is it in this happens but it was so just too no matter Tipitina's be like you're outside here in La normal people living normal lives around this is well

► 00:39:28

what is the response in Mexico. What it would mean after they wanted to have this military action against the cartels obviously that hasn't really put a dent in it what's the the current thought process behind dealing with this so there's a bunch of black students in protest movements various times during recent years and one of them was that was a very interesting talk with Javier Sicilia I was a poet and writer whose son was murdered and he when it first happened if someone is murdered and he just came out, it's just life is just a mess going to call account do is my son's been killed and they began to walking in parade and then went to the streets and people coming out publicly crying I know we want to start times there's a realization login some people time with this I'm people come out and then I went to some of these things people come out crying family members and I see a sentence with with victims a book

► 00:40:28

a long time since he's in pretty bad guys killing bad guys and that wasn't the case now the car president Andres Manuel Lopez obrador who just won the election last year and just took power on December 1st please God to mix things that one of them is his idea of the war is over I'm going to create peace we can have forgiveness reconciliation

► 00:40:52

can I please talk to know what that really means and the second thing is we need to have more of a unified State Police so like what I described for about you had local police fighting federal place so we're going to have so he's going to start getting out or National Guard which is a kind of hybrid between military and police thing around and that's basically his his lease, tooth receding now he's only been in power couple of months January was still a bad month in Tampa murders. X Boris last year was that won $33,000 last year which is the size of Mexico's equipment of United States have been close to a hundred thousand there might be more that would made in the United States if you got that many people dying in a year now when these people are what when they're being recruited by the cartels when the police officers are being recruited

► 00:41:52

the biggest you must be really must be two wishes Ritz safety like if they don't join the cartel they are probably get murdered and to the amount of money the cartel would give them would be far more than the government would give them be a legitimate police officer yeah she'll not that's like a notify me to Clapton Plum Plateau Plateau Paloma like silver or let you want to have the silver of the Bride of the bullet even beyond that for a long time ago these people to join the police I like from the beginning that and I made a video back in 2010 in ciudad Juarez have a bunch of rappers just hang around in the middle of all this I'm one of their friends with saying unable to looking at least people sign and I saw that being done to take drugs are bored of everything gangs and stuff

► 00:42:40

I want it was like I want to be a policeman

► 00:42:43

I died he was like one of your pleasing to make some money in a Vespa 3 corruption that has another guy quit is it is a guy who became a policeman when he was eighteen he proposed be a heart tough guy paid American football from Durango become a policeman is 18 M into place to watch went on to murder after 2 years just left the play some went full-time in the crime is life so you know you've got a situation where

► 00:43:21

he knows not of corruption to all this essentially is escalated from the time you came to Mexico so when you came back so it sounds like you got in I mean if it was a story you got in at almost the perfect time Yeah Yeah Yeahs horrible way yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean like you know you said you didn't do these things on purpose you know you don't think if I look back 20 years ago I'm at 18 years up in New Mexico now how is the Mexican accent and I've never looked back and I think that's it now in Sons of myself

► 00:44:04

sing me some minute I mean nothing for anybody it's painful I mean how you process that level of death I level of motherland of suffering it's it's

► 00:44:18

is he sees horrible stuff to see in and it's

► 00:44:22

you can still have a lot of people

► 00:44:26

separated from that in our family if you could bring up children

► 00:44:30

and now you want to separate you know you kids phone. So love often like middle-class kids in Mexico called sheltered two families one showed him as much they can come from that violence and just do not let him see that side of things how much of that do you have to deal with in Mexico City Mexico City is about the same motor right as Houston

► 00:44:55

to Mexico City supervisor now it's still not super safe but it's not super violent so Mexico City is kind of

► 00:45:05

and they're all parts of Mexico with your with your family safe now the state of Yucatan know where murder is is the same metal level is Belgium so you got a racist with in Mexico we don't have his level of violence so Mexico City is it is a great city is a bunch of things that I don't know. Love with Mexico and I enjoy Gandhi's place to enjoy meeting people that are in a hangout Sara is not a good thing. I'm still dealing with all the horrific tragedies that you report about an experience do you look for an Escape Route let me know you are you looking to get the fuck out of Dodge

► 00:45:55

yeah I mean um

► 00:45:58

Disney different times where I want to stop this now in Colorado Springs great Mexican Genesis just I just want to talk to you at trial of El Chapo ever in New York I'm whooping cough in this two years when it's been a really great Mexican correspond to discover the drugs he was like you said to me about I've got some stuff maybe I can give you this is the last thing I'm going to do think a lot of time you can either you get caught still doing the stuff and everything when you when you cover something people want more people are interested this at least it is I think some of the struggles Beyond

► 00:46:48

like the the dangerous stuff is simply a man with journalism is in a bad way I love to meet you in a bad way and you should be getting that phone number for Lawrence Jennifer Lopez style of Independence I love being right books and problem right magazine store isn't make documentaries do these things but like to tighten have an economic base for that has to generate an auction in turn off engine have you personally been targeted at all so

► 00:47:19

the couple of situations that hide and give some

► 00:47:27

I can respect and condolences to so many colleagues Mexican colleagues who have been murdered in a bain-marie threatened to leave the country and very things that had a bad dream of friend a good friend The Great Khali good how about this who was shot dead in 2017 May 2017 in a guy I've known since 2008 great guy goes wrong with him in the Cantina very generous guy write books a charismatic mean I really like the guy that was shot that and many other stories so sorry I kind of don't want to

► 00:48:10

get my companion was too. Them in many ways but yes shoulders being times as one time and

► 00:48:16

it was a mistake or Michoacan 2014 and there was a thing that happened there with a lot of Regular People rose up with guns against the cartels donut Alta defenses or like self-defense courts and then rise up to fight the cartels

► 00:48:35


► 00:48:37

they they have a bunch of guys with guns of his car crazy situation when it was his like was like a trench warfare between cartels in self-defense groups

► 00:48:47

and then what happened to go to regular gangsters Start center with self-defense groups as well you know we just come up there earlier with self-defense groups without guns and

► 00:48:59

so anyway I went down a drive down to the end of it being fatty okay to take the self defense schools the other offenses were pretty easy going to work with

► 00:49:11

buy drive down there to to Michoacan I want to do some stuff on it and I'm going to meet a friend on a journey she backed out at the last minute as one down there anyway and arrive dad knows about 50 guys arrived in this place near the city code apatzingan and there's about fifty guys who supposedly a self-defense cord in parking lot getting ready to go on a mission to try and take down this drug traffic would like to te

► 00:49:42

I never liked the same as it was. I would like to sign them up for this kind of mission and there's a bunch of guys they were and I had very heavy weapon where they had AK-47 that I have 50 that grenade launchers I'm on their own at the top of that guns and benefit guns they had. Grenades strap through them like if I'm not crazy like that like that you see the old Revolution we stop him or not real crazy like this Broadway stuff

► 00:50:13

I meant I was talking I realized quickly these would not self defense classes in self-defense movement couple days now they're like and then they had like guns with black diamonds at half a I'm on

► 00:50:39

I don't get one of those kind of like in a joking with these guys and take some photographs of them so they were posing for photographs said it was sitting there with posing with guns and stuff in there and they said they say they have all the word WeDo is like a white boy stop lonely and I can be lucky if you or your wife in Mexico

► 00:51:03

Sola Cuero how much do prostitutes cost in your country did I take meth

► 00:51:20

I know there was still like I'm joking and this guy said, among them he said we got to the other guy that's a big guy and he said I was carrying a big guy

► 00:51:32

how do you say to me a big recipe to starting my photo

► 00:51:37

and then a guy came up and said to the other guys what are you doing this to be a guy here is a DEA agent among you taking your photographs

► 00:51:48

what are you doing and I was like I'm not even American I'm British

► 00:51:54

I said Nana said Diego my my brother was arrested in Texas in the Diego pretend to be a journalist story

► 00:52:03

I said lately I can show you my website so they got the cell phone out and I looked through the cell phone and found out my website

► 00:52:15

and the guy calm down a bit and he said if I see you I'm going to put a bullet in your head

► 00:52:21

I want to throw a grenade at you so I left and I I kind of tried to talk about left and

► 00:52:32

yeah and then I went and then I didn't publish the photographs to go in a bath if I was like one of the guys send me an email saying what happens if I do crafts my emails on the website so I just ignored it and I think a lot of them got killed in Big 5 of the federal Place afterwards sad one has been a few more so it's a lot of touching girl yeah yeah the the federal police do they have a plan to try to eradicate these moms or is it a lot of lip service like it is it really possible to Raticate these gangs or is it just one of those things where they say they're going to do something but they have to come to protect themselves

► 00:53:15

you know this so there's this being different different times I mean sometimes he's being the federal police have done well done off the particular guy or sometimes with the Americans and now there is pain

► 00:53:27

I'm being arrested very many significant kingpins the problem is what is the double jointed people questions is that

► 00:53:36

like when you take down some of these kingpins it was the other people to fight over the same territory so for example you take out Chapo Guzman and then you can fight among his sons as an all I want to do tenants over it's over the Empire now what's happened to Mark the reasons of violence increased in Mexico hypocrite I've had this Onslaught attacking Car Sales over the years then you end up with like the Lieutenant's than taking over and then their lieutenants taking over the net in tennis taking over that's what happened in Chicago as well or I spoke to police officer in Chicago and he said the violence escalated afterwards some big gang arrests and once they had gotten some leaders are some games and other people try to fill the void yeah exactly exactly say so so then you get some of the people who is in power now

► 00:54:32

I like very young very violent people in people with small nose nose mature. Calculator so you have people controlling Robin having Big Cartel some leader who controls it in the Hof a country you're not with these caught a little of these gangs control in part of the state is one stay cool Guerrero would you see me some Willie Le cartel fragmentation a new court may be 12 different groups in this one state and you get like a place where they going to want to buzz up along the road and then in our group controls it

► 00:55:08

passing a certain point so there was some some friends went out there 7 Janice went out there and got held up on this road up there 2017 as well and they got they win a car, the two vehicles in about two hundred guys block the road

► 00:55:29

I'm the leader of this group has got a liquid at what up Elijah and he's like maybe 23 years old at 200 guys that is it some of the kids I told you on the friends who was that and this is somebody so kids was young like 10 years old among his mother people I know you days they held them out they took away one of the vehicles they took away with a laptop camera equipment stuck them in the car to go do you have to be careful when you're traveling that you don't have like an obvious expensive laptop or camera something along those lines from the point of view of these things I can make and take it away I'm going to the top of the lord lord cases recent leave college is being rubbed him down take all that stuff so you don't get so going on at various colleagues photographers to do a freelance photographer and you lose a good camera

► 00:56:26

then that interlock so you know some of the TV people have to have less expensive, they used to remember a few years ago a TV group interview some gang members up in Honduras and they stole that Cameron was that's how I was like a $90,000 camera on the TV network these guys are having guns pointed to him what is the altitude in Mexico special amount of people who are studying the Narco Wars with all this Build That Wall stuff all this what's going on in America there's this this is very strange right vs left polarizacion over here about whether or not they should be a wall between United States and Mexico sure I mean Mexicans in Mexico from and Trump is very unpopular

► 00:57:26

turn the bright beginning and I hope when he said I know they are rapists and murderers yeah someone's doing the raping yeah it's kind of sad eyes they did levels for a lot like my trump and Mexico contrarians 80% or something I haven't met a Mexican who's being a pro Trump I never have I met Salvadoran who is pro Trump one time and it in the heater hit it like being deported and he was like I knew you could you know this guy Trump going to turn out to be a great president so I see that but now I'm very very Auntie Trump in X the world I mean is it time to walk

► 00:58:16

I attended as smug as most talking to a Smuggler in no gallus about this and he was describing he eats my neighborhood right on the border with the United States Nogales Sonora Nogales Arizona

► 00:58:40

he described the he first took people over the border the United States back in the 1980s when he was at school so high school and the reason it's an old fence and there's a hole in the fence is to go through into not States and got back into Mexico just an old wire fence

► 00:58:59

on the first time he to people through people derive from southern Mexico so you know how to get the US and it's an organized this way and I gave him a ticket to the first time I called about 50 Cent's what do I make to take people's United States 50 Cent nowadays the cost of going into the u.s. is $5,000 that's what you paid the girl leaving the United States five thousand bucks to say wow look at that increase every time that the US has more security it means is more expensive one is more expensive that means more money going to criminals which means there's not an industry doing it for now

► 00:59:37

the cartels make a big percentage of that money of human smuggling into the u.s.

► 00:59:43

I'm looking at the world I mean the

► 00:59:48

what was Trump's first came in at the London Mexico is going to pay for it and I know nose is kind of lying and A-Rod the beginning he kind of hate Mexican president saying if you needed any way to type the world and why in the, make me

► 01:00:03

and then it was like while he's really going to find Shakedown Mexico for like billions of dollars if you didn't want to do that and that was kind of scary mime and then pinpoint did Mexico when he first got the powers like going to do that and then he's going to the pool 3 million and he's going to be nice going to kill NAFTA

► 01:00:25

actually those things haven't really come to pass out today if you look up the last couple of years it from passing really hit Mexico very hard to the concern was that he was going to take money that should be allocated to other way it's going to help Mexico and he's going to try to take that and use it to build a wall in a high going to do that you can even start threatening Mexican military and say give us money I made it was kind of like it like that shake down scary for a moment from the point of view of Mexico but I think he hasn't really hit Mexico with that not he wants to build the wall now she's a bit a big fashion in terms of the spending her

► 01:01:13

but if he wants to build it

► 01:01:17

extended stay with pool in sections in the Border already if he wants to extend it and now it won't stop a lot of hard drugs

► 01:01:25

how many to look at heroin cocaine crystal meth high value drugs they normally go through the ports of Entry so shipping True Light, I mean you have a turkey cost from cars trucks that are Mexico's cuz it's very valuable territory there's something like 8,000 trucks go over the border every day

► 01:01:57

now if you'll 8000 trucks how many lights can you search in a day and go to the way they can hide this stuff in truck they can hide drugs in like a metal they can put them in sin in some kind of metal container City up shoulder it up put a bunch of stuff so it doesn't smell so somebody it's not with a blowtorch vehicle apart to find the drugs they're putting them inside Wheels that's one of the older tricks formula 272 the song is it when the first Narco Corridos. Drug ballots it was called Contraband and treason for the 1970s was about hiring hiding marijuana packaging and tires

► 01:02:55

like open the door move some stuff to Tri-City Tri-City open find the trucks is that much I mean I remember hearing that from Sun a reliable source but from The Sopranos they were talking about only 20% of all the shipping containers to get brought into America get searched that's crazy yeah yeah absolutely so so he took the hard drugs but I'm out of town on 3D the Port of Entry and Salah one guy to get busted set somebody up so that taking some drugs through they get they get busted who the f is this the United States border that's test that's catching this guy

► 01:03:49

yeah yeah we're not getting chat did not getting tested in Mexico is a crossover right it's only the United States border yes, sometimes they might catch him in Mexico sometimes but the majority of the United States of the United States border patrol guys are they ever caught being corrupt US border patrol and Customs entry people who have been back or taking a bunch of money taking bribes allowed in Atlantis and cause 3 course through so yeah you were going to wave it over Mexico and fix this problem

► 01:04:28

I'll give you if somebody said you were on your smart guy in the business for a long time we're going to let you dictate how this takes place so I'll tell you at three things we go to talk about how we deal with this truck situation so I mean I mean I mean some of that is what Americans take somebody drops taking Community myself in UK I'll guess so maybe no. Different I think there's a lot of answers to that the biggest one is entirely that most people don't enjoy what they do and they want an escape I think that's probably the biggest one the there's some ridiculous number that was just we're just who is discussing the number on the podcast of how many people actually was it it was Johann Hari wasn't it

► 01:05:22

yeah he was talking about the number of people that actually enjoy their job 67% people of in this country don't like what they do or you know or just sleepwalking to the life there's another significant percent that hate what they do and then there's a few left over that love what they do and it's a very small number of people may be like myself or maybe like yourself that actually enjoy what they do for a living and feel like they're following the passion most people just working a job and they fucking hate it and then when they get off work they want to get fucked up and a lot of these people getting out there they have psychological issues or suffering from abuse childhood abuse their trying to I mean there's been significant statistics about childhood abuse and how many people from childhood abuse wind up using and abusing drugs and becoming addicted and even overdosing on Drugs That's ridiculously high it's about pain pain and suffering and trying to remove that pain and suffering from your life

► 01:06:23

and dumb you know people that don't know how to make healthy choices and don't have friends that are making healthy choices and it don't know what to do with their life that's a big big part of it is not a part of it that's because it's illegal and something about things that are illegal that are intoxicating and enticing you know when you look at the statistics in Holland in particular where marijuana has been you know you could buy and coffee shops forever not that many people smoke marijuana at all until it's a lot of marijuana tourism especially back in the day now that America has legal marijuana of almost everywhere and not a lot of people going to Holland specifically to get fucked up but it was always the thing that when we were younger was always a guy is going to go to Holland go get high when I arrive in Amsterdam back in those days yet

► 01:07:23

I do love what I do and enjoy what I do so that's why I want a slice of that thing but the American stop spending that money or allow that money is going to be spent not to be gone to a black market on a destabilizing these countries produce a lot of issues in in Mexico as well like the kid not so sure of how you change the reality by people who were abused and Safa taking drugs but people abusing suffer in Latin America becoming a book when we have things in order on a moral level level of Morality In on your little kids grown up you sell drugs it wasn't really an amazing and moral thing to think about and I sell drugs easy step to take on a smok sell some weed and I'm going to sell some speed and sell some ecstasy and then later on in a heroin whatever

► 01:08:19

but for something committed murder that seems like a big a big a deal how do you get into how do you cross that line to becoming a murderer how to make cross that line so easily that young boy you were talking about the butcher that family he was abandoned and angry and hurt just so much pain that he's suffering that's often the case they want other people to suffer when when you see people that are doing terrible things to be but they're almost always suffering there almost almost always wanting other people to feel what they feel they're lashing out that it's that. Social work aspect you discussing so critical in something that we've discussed about this country that how few people are putting I mean that help ended very few politicians very few people that are running this country are putting effort into trying to heal these communities that have suffered from

► 01:09:13

just years and years of systemic racism years and years of just embedded poverty that's almost impossible to escape years and years of crime and drugs and just growing up in this community of Despair this is what we were talking about with Baltimore this is what we're talking about with Southside of Chicago and various cities all over this country just they don't get better man they dates stay. You know I had Michael Wood who is a police officer from Baltimore and He was discussing what it was like being in Baltimore as a police officer and then looking at some documents from the 1970s a detailed the crime in the very same area that he was patrolling in and this the same crime in the same area as in this sense of

► 01:10:00

just overwhelming futility like there was nothing that he was going to be able to do this going to put a dent in this cuz this was a lot of it was a product of these areas in Baltimore where there was law that you were not allowed to sell homes to black people in these certain areas so they can't these people in these poor areas and even though they had his desire to escape into the the morath when are safer communities and we're not allowed to for a long time I mean there's so much of that in this country that you know the people that are in control but everybody just wants to get elected everybody just wants to you know any wants to get elected then they're looking to get reelected so they spend a gigantic percentage of their time campaigning know there's no Universal effort on the part of all the citizens of the country to try to look at all these areas and say these are up this is us know just because you don't live in the south side of Chicago that those are human being so they're just like you and I you could have been them they could have been you

► 01:11:00

if they were you and you were then wouldn't you hope that you would help with New Hope that someone would come in and try to fix this area someone will try to Poorman reports so much money in the foreign countries we pour so much money is subsidizing various industries that a lot of people disagree with you know when there's I mean I'm not an economist I don't know what economic sense that on any of that stuff makes but I do know that money is allocated in a lot of different ways and the idea that it's going to be better for all of us it's not better for all of us to keep these communities as fucked up as they are right now and there's no effort nothing very little done no movement no change no gigantic step no no 10 year plan to eradicate gang violence so 10-year plan to eradicate illegal drug sales and murder in this great social work a social worker down and said they're awesome gyros in these places and there's somebody I talk to a lot by sza. What is Magoo Sondra he grew up in this neighborhood she going too fast

► 01:12:00

taehyung gang members in this in this area used to work in a factory they're going to social work now she's a psychologist somebody who really will do the welcome which people are more like save lives and you know somebody in a basic stuff you really getting the community in front of recently have to reach the kids when they're often 12 11 12 and you can see in these areas who the kids are going to get into this we going to be recruited by the cartels going to get the gangs book or the big gangs that start in the US actually among prisoners and spread into Mexico from Big Time with a military group in Mexico about how they recruit people in this guy was saying looking like we will see what I can see from these young kids who's going to be I would have killed him know he's going to be a real fight and he's not and if these people have gotten in a parents who loved me so for these guys I'm going to I'm going to

► 01:13:00

not going to work for me I need some of these like why I hate I can do some of the opposite of this stuff really Timeless this makes me think a bit more

► 01:13:15

sympathize I guess as well to another. The idea of how how important family is important loving parents is no way you were together or separately in a loving parents and I haven't got but if you don't have that you know you need social welcome need people who can offer something and trying with Marion could Andres guardado and he had his ideas of trying to change the reality of the city they said I'm going to build the most he was a mathematician mathematical problem

► 01:13:47

I'm going to build the most beautiful building and the ugliest part of the city in the west part of the city to make them. People who wanted to be made out of conservatory and put it in there in the poorest neighborhood so the people want to be in this concept we have to travel to the poorest neighborhood in go that try and change the reality because if you see around you a horrible neighborhood but the street no light not working now what do you turn into it if you see a nice environment around you can you change people that way Bruce between some of the gangsters that as well for a while to drop quite dramatically in Marion I know that. Cardon and I've been Marion housing program in Medellin Colombia was the worst the most violent city in the world back in the

► 01:14:47

nighty night isn't it is not my people do like that City now and then so it had some impact the social workers I'm sure they have some impact on individual people but I would imagine that the overwhelming volume of children that are being recruited that is very hard that put a real dent in it around 2010-2011 I know with this stuff will that between the Sinaloa cartel which is Chapo Guzman against local parties cartel and there was that would 9000 code in Ark City of it for years about about wool crazy I was covering it was covering it ended just driving around from sing to say to be like in a massacre Headmaster that is driving around by Bank sing Happy

► 01:15:37

add off to was there was a lot of Social Work put into the city to describe fine and she said that there's a slight us usaid and Stop & Stop putting money into this and all the different groups and so and so I think it does have a real effect when it's pushed policy in a does have an effect on these things about a magic wand on this song please. Asleep text Community or making a please. Has some kind of effect when I grew up in England which is in a pre safe place relatively nice and not like please I hate that. Auntie place would have grown up now I appreciate while you know you have police reciprocate community in some way and the same in the united states are in the United States

► 01:16:37

the police to protect people to a large extent capacities countries and it obviously takes you say it is or issue with racism and killing and violence and so forth but still I think a lot of the people who who believed that people leave out guns for self-defense and I respect the right to have guns to defend the real in America you generally safe because the police are pretty hard I'm coming down but how do you crap please. Which really has the will to protect people and how do you have that in with the with the the winning the passion and commitment to help people in Mexico that would be that bad dream the people that have dealt with police officers that are corrupt have a very difficult time hearing what you're saying right Bill did those people would be angry what you're saying say nothing all the police officers here are corrupt they are bad there is racism to our real problem and there is but I think there's also a real problem being a police officer p

► 01:17:37

I think police officers have an insanely difficult job and I think most of them are dealing with PTSD I think there's a giant percentage of them like all over the world and in America to that are constantly dealing with violence and the threat of violence and arresting criminals and being shot at in people lying to them I just don't think I think most people are very ill equipped to handle something like that with the place and there are problems in the police shootings around by real problems are please killing innocent people here is very real and a boy color for improvement and then I guess people families against suffering from the from the volume I don't want to believe that start but I don't know so many people be hearing this and go yeah Mexico's terrible the United States there's mean there's a ton of videos the real issue though is we're also dealing with the the sheer number of interactions

► 01:18:37

please have with people with the vast majority of them are fine yeah I'm there's one video videos Freddy might be sick which is given to a family the kid like a 14 year old kid who was taken and they will send this video to his family in Mexico I never beaten this kid and science whiz kid in a decision you'll fall to call your kids getting beaten are you going to give me the money so I can feel like $100,000 so I can put on my kidnapping doesn't happen the United States on a very big level because

► 01:19:28

Hugo effective law enforcement so it's something I was at 1 conference notes and I got those people couldn't be a police force and you really want to live like with no place really dysfunction place where I can just kidnap your kid and I send a video to the protection from that kind of thing I mean is there any problem say about the roofs are you going to say don't that the other side had an employee discounts no place for some of that means there's just such a staggering difference between the United States and Mexico in that regard in the regard to gang violence drug violence just the overall murders in the stories that we hear from over it's so different the fact that you could just draw a little line in the dirt you cross that line you're in hell and then the cross this line here in Houston that's fucking crazy

► 01:20:22

decrease I sometimes from a mechanism that Mexican government sources or Mexican tourism sources and I like I'm currently stopped so I'm showing the worst I'm a historic picture sometimes because you know what to tell a story at 49 decapitated bodies with a handsome fee coffee with a while and she seems you say this stuff and some guy describing the captain people and I've known people outside and I don't say it was well as. At least it is a great country I still States but I operate a Mexican War and what do you like more about Mexico besides food I'm and I would say generally the atmosphere is good I just feel I feel

► 01:21:08

people nice generally I think spy out of these horrific violence do you think it's because they don't have the same sort of Ruthless ambition that people in the United States have I think there is a since we talked before about what he's doing the drugs and one thing that occurred to me is this kind of hyper-competitiveness of society and people can feel like failure

► 01:21:33

like if you feel like a failure if you feel like social media specialist is well because you see what people have any expect you to have more and you feel you haven't lived up to it I think in Mexico people know if you broke in the United States if you can come up maybe fill up a person fatty I'll come you living in America near broke where is the Mexican off paperwork so you like in the same kind of personal file it with that went on there one thing that always strikes me is how happy people seen and that I think there's a certain stress level that a lot of Americans put themselves in to where they're constantly pursuing material possessions material wealth and success and that often times as leads to really exacerbated stress levels and it's not it doesn't make you happy like the whole idea of having things in our mind is someday if I buy this car I'll be happy if I live in this neighborhood I'll be happy and then so they worked well

► 01:22:32

hours a day to try to achieve that dream and they're never happy and they're always stressed out and even though the vast majority of the United States I mean there's some insane number like 34 if you make $35,000 a year you are in the top 1% of the world so there's a giant percentage of this country that's in the top 1% of the world yet the overall happiness level at least from what I've read is quite a bit below the people in Mexico Successful Failure so yeah it says that it's not but that's part of it I mean

► 01:23:13

I'm getting the food is great the food at the food at the food is much improved the time it is as Mexican as you get no one speaks English there they have Mexican soap operas playing on the television and the food is just Sensational it's so good yeah yeah so I before E to Matt this border between Mexico and the US yeah it's it's a huge is that vast difference between countries and cultures and the interaction another a short definition of guns gang south of me to come up with a Firearms a lot of firearms that fast and furious deal yeah the Eric Holder thing that we sold it was some sort of a sting they sold guns and those guns wind up being used to kill Americans in the evening American police officers

► 01:24:13

turn off this in this time in the number of guns nose really show how many kinds of gun down but there was one study the conclusion about to over 200,000 guns every year over the United States to Mexico

► 01:24:28

so so that's insane number to mm mm gun I know I interviewed a guy in prison Inside Out by this for gun trafficking and he would drive every weekend from Mexico to United States by 10 to 15 mostly all things smaller guns well I'm driving down into into Mexico it's pretty easy to get into Mexico so you drive an anus like it is it hits a piece of piss he would actually hide them in fridges on and stoves and would pay an import tax to the fridges and stoves but but he was buying them and he said she said how did you buy the guns said I would no idea to what I did you show to buy your thoughts is that I'm not going to have no idea what that means

► 01:25:28

was he was used at private Sal Lupo we stayed the twine close now so he will go in there then I went to the guns to gun show in in Mesquite in Dallas area that is the gun show Captain America Winter Garden show that had people can you sell my guns and I'm done I can sell my guns and that is it. Now you need to be a text with me some guns and it was the reason for that is besides privates I'll run however some of them I know some of the pro-gun people can we talk about this but I saw that got a whole bunch of boxed up AR-15 rifles in the same as being private said it's a private cell now so he was able to find his gods and take them down our store right in front of me as well somebody who who who who said to the person icon account by looking for different gone and said not to buy it

► 01:26:28

I don't have anybody to buy the gun and the person we know still happy like even the private sale loophole if if you in fear if you suspect the person is a criminal justice you shouldn't tell him a gun but I played on Cat so one thing and when you really want people really want people who they could be MS-13 on top of minute they can still walk in and buy guns zombies places

► 01:26:56

I'm just a soul that's a big issue as well as those gun shows are pretty bizarre kitchen to shoot somebody else I know a guy who keeps a gun and his ankle at all times he keeps one in this back he's got he's got a holster that he carries with him sometimes it carries a knife as well and he's literally begging for someone to talk with him with the people who like ESPN's about 200 guns in his is basement 200 guns with doing that but then this to like how do you stop the guns guide to criminal to sign the gun that comes in in Baltimore a mouse in a minute in Baltimore gun trafficking was taking guns into the city of Baltimore

► 01:27:56

it's very strange that's allowed in this is coming from someone me personally who owns guns and I believe in the Second Amendment and I just I don't think that the way to stop people from doing illegal activities is to make those activities illegal for people who don't do anything illegal and I think they're the real issue is the psychology behind people that are willing shoot people in the first place in the deal with the overall mentality of these human beings and try to figure out what's wrong with our society that a base level at a human level that's what's really wrong with something inanimate object but gun that's the problem is that human beings that are willing to use his gun to commit horrific acts that's what I think but when you have something like drug cartels which exists or gangs which exists and then you have this thing called a gun show and then you have his Gun Show loophole boy you got a fucking giant hole in your damn you have water pouring right through right there like how do you not fix that up if you are a person who believes in 2nd Amendment you believe in legal and responsible gun use

► 01:28:56

you should be angry at that cuz that is that represents a gigantic problem and that also represents a threat to Legal gun ownership cuz if this keeps happening and people keep getting Outreach and more mass shootings happen with illegally acquired guns after while you know there's there's it's going to come to some sort of a real conflict with people interested to hear about his issues among what the actual room for compromise is someone like yourself who believes in the Second Amendment how much room for compromise you think they're raising on these issues on me like closing the gun-show loophole the other thing life example issue 50 cal. 50 cows in Mexico to cartel coffee has used 50 Cals that use them to set up ambushes the use them to hit military vehicles please decals so that the other side of the mountain and are 50 cal handgun bullets

► 01:29:56

whatever you got in your vehicle can I open up when you said you think for like come down 50 cal. I have a friend and tell him it's ridiculous it script mean the idea that you're using it for self-defense unless you're going to war with Russia or you know fighting against some gang cartel gang that's invading your city that seems that's a military weapon I mean it's the same argument I think for having a fighter jet with Hellfire missiles do I think you should be able to own a Cessna and fly a little print plane around sure do I think you should be able to own a jet car lot of Rich Folks at private jets do I think you should be able to own a fighter jet that goes this

► 01:30:56

cheetah sound. I mean it's just a faster Jet right yeah okay okay do you think you should be able to own a fighter jet with 50 caliber guns strapped to it oh what the fuck is that are you starting a war like what are you doing this is like these levels that things get to you know that's this is the argument against automatic weapons like you can't use automatic I like certain states have regulations terms of what you can in California you can't even have a silencer I don't know why because it's very bad to have that loud bang of a gun is terrible for your ears and if you're a hunter or someone who likes to shoot target practice or something that's a terrible thing for your ears and there's a suppressor that you put in the end of the barrel and mitigate that but for whatever reason I think mostly because of films and public perception people think that those silencers are only used by assassins or something like that I know you using to kill people so they take

► 01:31:56

nextlink invent the food would have which makes it much more free with the trigger much much easier to fire rapidly brother so how do you feel about the issue you know one of the issues is having a database like the ATF Allure that not allowed to have a searchable database on on guns in the United States they have like that. Paper files and stuff still the database some guns that seems ridiculous doesn't it yeah I cast a disease of the gun lobby Siri are there a gun registry is being step to take away their guns because like once you start registering then you can go then off to his inside where we know where the guns are whatever but how do you feeling this flexibility on the issue of like a gun a lot having sex with databases I'm in love with a car like you have a license plate and if there's a hit-and-run you type it in and you know whose car it is

► 01:32:56

seconds with gun tracing Yukon that you find a gun at crime scene whatever you can just trade and I put a button to God found out they have to go through and go to this concert she needs flexibility on the issue as well or how do you feel about yourself wife myself feel this should be a traceable database just like a car and I'm glad you brought up that analogy because when you when you get a car you have to know how to drive a car you have to do in order to have a license to drive a car you have to take a test you have to take a written test and you take a physical driving test with an instructor they have to see anything about how many more people drive cars than own guns so it's possible to do this with guns yet it's not done when I bought my first gun like a go it's like what I like that's it again you're not a criminal but we did a check on you you're not a criminal here's a gun I bought a pistol it but a 38

► 01:33:56

vulvar those my first gun and I went to the gun range and practice with the gun and I are read about how to do and I talked to instructor about safety and put goggles on and earmuffs you know make sure you're protected and how to properly hold a gun while you shoot in all these different things but it's stunning to me that you don't have to do that mean you can own a hundred and fifty guns and know how to operate zero of them and they're all yours you don't even have to prove you know what the fukken safety is you don't have to prove you know anyting that's that's crazy but it's fun to shoot guns and we searched with new pick up and shooting a few guns in places I would I would have to Serbia and arrived in Serbia on a hangover at see my friends in the UK and go wrong with them and wife in The Hangover not the contact dance I wanted to go to a gun club

► 01:34:47

I took me into a nuclear bunker Alpha an AK-47 just so I can see if it is fun to do you think they actually all good in self-defense some of these do you think I mean Mexico and have guns I wouldn't when I travel in the field I want security I'm there generally Securities going to be more of a hindrance because they attract attention is Mason doing I'm most situations that are you going to have a lot of people with heavy guns you know and I'll go on these guys yes they was with guys with guns they're not out of choice choosing security because they think the Judge himself was kind of God I might have friends carrying guns and he was hit his car in a minute

► 01:35:47

name is Greg Greg Jennings he was driving around and he had a mini you see only on his lap as he was driving around to crime scenes and running around doing stuff but do you think guns about the effective for self-defense means you have guns for self-defense and believe in that would simply just enjoy the sport shooting guns while I hunt and one of the things I have you archery hunt now most of the most of the hunt I go on when I go to these places to to bow hunt specifically but I have rifles for hunting I have handguns for self-defense in it depends entirely on the situation that's like saying do you think cars are effective to get you where you want to go while they are effective if you drive carefully and you you know use the blinkers and look when you change lanes and then I'll make sure you observe the speed limit and all the different laws are aware and don't crash in anybody loves you

► 01:36:47

masshole know they're not effective you're going to wind up dying in a car accident you're going to flip your car over the side of the road if you're in a terrible situation it is better to have a gun that is not have a gun if you know how to use it if someone breaking into your house there has been there is countless stories of people protecting their families from from bad guys when they have guns they use a real stories they do exist there are people that have talked to they eat me you could find them there's countless doors is also countless stories of people leaving their guns unlocked and a child gets a hold of it and kills himself accidentally there's their stores of Chaat children accidentally killing their mothers this is all those stories to so can a gun be effective in self-defense for sure that's why the military use them that's why police officers use them that's why people train and then go to the range and they take tactical courses to learn how to use a gun for self-defense absolutely a gun can be used for self-defense. It's the best

► 01:37:47

sing for the best tool for self-defense other than you know obviously living in a good neighborhood having a security alarm all these different steps a dog dogs are good especially a dog is a trained dog but ya Gunz absolutely can protect you if you're in a situation someone breaks in your house can you shoot that person dead that's you or you're safer then that person killing you that has happened but it's a this is a that meet us a gross generalization that's an entirely dependent upon the situation that you find yourself in but if you are not if you're not protected by if you don't understand how to use it if you're not trained if you don't if you don't have training to keep your shit together when things go south

► 01:38:34

because when you're in a situation of your life is in danger if you've never been in a high-pressure situation before how do you know you can keep it together and even hit something you're aiming at people have wild trigger panic and they they have a really hard time dealing with life or death situations if they haven't served in the military or been some very very high-stress situations we have to learn how to control yourself under extreme pressure conditions there's a lot there's a lot of factors there but I would say the same thing as like you you would also say that with martial arts like you can you defend yourself if you know martial arts depends on what you know I mean some martial arts are fucking horseshit there's a lot of people out there practicing nonsense and if someone who actually knew how to fight just punched him in the face they would be doomed and then there's other people out there that are experts that would be very, someone tried to fight them and they would know what to do what not to do if a person was an armed they would be able to easily dispatched them

► 01:39:35

it really is dependent upon the situation how much effort you put into it how much thought you put into it and that there is a lot of people out there if you broke into the house you're making a huge mistake because they're trained and prepared and ready cuz they don't want to be a victim and it doesn't mean they're bad people and I think we we have a problem in this country where we look at things they're very fine are there 1 or 0 they're good or bad guns are bad guns are always bad I want to go on the bad guys take your gun sometimes sure sometimes sometimes you kill the bad guy and you protect your family though to that's real to have a gun for self-defense we're talking about about shooting I've been around a few shootouts in in Latin America and I would hate to think about that from his point of view and being around an open signal. Violence as well as people fighting going back to England people having physical fights with knives and that kind of thing

► 01:40:32

so what are the difference is I think with guns is why you can't see but it's Brian. The guy scary you can see you can imagine. Nice stick into you but the gun is not used to seeing you know the object you can't see what it what are the times of the shows in Haiti earthquake in 2010 which was seen a roadside and I'd like crazy amount that day and will covering the Looting I'm off the woods and

► 01:41:12

the police came and started firing right into are people with looting over the camera mount

► 01:41:19

and the police would find bang bang in the same situation I would like to start running when the police the far end of the foreign

► 01:41:35

give me how high would a fire live far in going to bang fall asleep and the cameraman I was with

► 01:41:43

we just sat lanuza filming this

► 01:41:47

I think this is one of the problems that come and get shot in these places you start feel like you watching on TV cuz you feel like that you're sick molesting Marty's amazing looking well look who I'm watching him I just seen this is letting us a good rotten we going to go we're not that far and it's like something about a guy filming American gymnast cool Bradley Road and will rest in peace who was killed in Mexico in 2006

► 01:42:24

and he was filming a shooting and state of Oaxaca and he filmed these guys shooting I need fell and was hit an account them filming his own death when you can do it for you if we say that the saddest look for news agency would not have died when he was he was killed in

► 01:42:45

yeah there's a lot of courageous camera people and you know they get locked into that job and it becomes normalized almost like you were saying the people that live in these war-torn areas it becomes a normal way of life to Diamond although there are a lot of murders if you're there on a daily basis it seems like almost like a regular life a lot of these cameramen I mean they are courageous people you see these guys who go over to war zones in film what's going on in Afghanistan you know when I've met some of these guys that's just too crazy way of life to just accept the fact that you're an observer that might be a victim and you're capturing all this so people like me can get up some semblance of a perception to what's going on in that part of the world Philippines Philippines

► 01:43:33

in 2017 and it was interesting seeing that compared to violence in Mexico so that was Isis that took over the City, Raleigh and it was an error that could it was a self-contained they had a medical the main battle area the mmpi-2 make main battle area so in the area was Isis and the Philippine Army just going at it all the time just like constant Bang Bang Bang Bang Bang on planes going to run bombing but even if you're going to meet us for me but if you're not in the fighting the fighting is over there where is it to my Mexico South America lost on this fighting is going to happen everywhere there's no real control over where where the main

► 01:44:24

but they didn't let any journalist inside like deep into the Mind Body and it outside in here it is constant Ricochet by gunfire and but sometimes bullets would come out of the area so there was an Australian guy and I think you've been over to pick up some cookies on a bullet hit in the neck or the X-ray actually of the bullet embedded in the side of his neck of the end of its terminal velocity far far Shot Ya something else for it hit him yeah so so he is going to Faust yeah I think he's okay with it like I was lucky it shot in the neck and you're okay yeah so what's up but yeah it sounds really being in the

► 01:45:24

I'm there was one of the guys one of the police special force guys had a camera in his helmet on a wet he showed me that footage but he was right there right inside the bag. And they're like really close buildings fighting with Islamic Isis people with the same techniques chart showing how the techniques of Guerrilla warfare had evolved from like Fallujah Aleppo muscle on how this kind of weird new form of with a wolf that I have a black fighting house-to-house I'm so that is suicidal and they'll be like in are super close fighting record service and then when they're born they're hiding like in a basement and stuff and they drill holes in the world that can fire through and fire through footage he had it should be the food is he had from being up Ryan so I close all running between the room Bank

► 01:46:24

people out and it was like wow this is just crazy over you I was trying to persuade the guy that let me put out footage out there right now is almost like a war I mean you can call it a drug war but because there's no it's not like an army versus army war we don't think about it that way but from in terms of the amount of violence that goes on over there and the amount of casualties did Rivals anything that's going on in the world right now is a good ride Accord I rub a bunker using external research it for the Pentagon and investigates this stuff with John Sullivan from here in California with a police officer who said I'm doing a bunch of research and then I got her doctor in in in in starting

► 01:47:24

stop as well talk to them about that right there's about what this means you know what is the how do you define this in terms of warfare how's it fit in a Book Barn Israeli store in to the transformation of War and Peace written back in the early 1990s be predicted then you going to say transformation in the end in war and conflict around the world and weapons but that useless in these situations then you could weapons you can use a nuclear weapon to sell Department Mexico you can use the nuclear weapon to deal with Islamic State in a diesel in China and services in countries so

► 01:48:08

if you look up a Mexican joke of weed hybrid hybrid to say between flying and wool so I use the word find wolves in somebody's place is semi Mexico El Salvador Guatemala Honduras will you have some situations in Mexico with a group who who the hell is Goin New Generation cartel some of that guy shot down in military helicopter using rpg-7 that killed eight soldiers in the federal prison in the helicopter there was one shootout which involved 2000 Federal place and 500

► 01:48:48

is a cat in South 500 cartel Hitman had this crazy battle in Michoacan to look more like a regular conflict with generates what way more can a hybrids is kind of weird mix until I get my head round this for a long time for some years or trying to think it is a civil war 2018 Pokemon Sun reset and I like this doesn't fit into this theories and I snore quiet Wars more than crime is a weird hybrid between Tacoma crime War that's why you understand these things but I love that the convicts Manuel today in this predicament you look up Somalia you look at Libya you look at all these places is kind of weird mix instability I didn't miss a lot of refugees fleeing from and I was down in

► 01:49:43

Shaquana quick before the migrant Caravan that came through Mexico central Americans know which cools the big big storm hear the drums what was that like was that overblown

► 01:49:58

I think it's a big deal was it a publicity event like is that why they were doing it and making it such a big deal and it was walking towards the Border like they was

► 01:50:12

this is carbon tits. In a few years ago and they start off in Mexico for security back a few years ago where the cartels were kidnapped migrants on mass that we just get loads of migrants are using these people to pull how can I make money from them but I'd get them put them in camps and I know they have family in the United States so they say okay we got 50 people in the camp who won $5,000 off each one of you

► 01:50:39

of your family. Give us number I'm going to quit family I can send us the money. And it sounds like a 2000 people but you deal with mass 10000 people and you get a couple thousand dollars each that's like $20,000 220 million dollars

► 01:50:58

so they start doing Caravans the strength to avoid these Mass kidnappings

► 01:51:03

what was different about the latest Caravan this is the camel Caravan Crossing Borders used to be country part of Mexico together then I start Crossing Borders not at Caravan began in October right October 12th there was a cool for them to meet add my friend rolling again until they are putting on TV are they down here that got this car and it's only went boom I'm not load paper sword on TV I know. I'm going I'm leaving I'm leaving now the desperation was so heavy in Honduras in a real meltdown going to stay indoors is bad Venezuelans was for Honduras might be. Number two if I having a real meltdown cases in Latin America right now

► 01:51:51

so people would like these people that we said I saw it on TV and that's it I'm going to decided Broadway I'm going to I'm going to go so then they went through Guatemala and I became big like 7,000 people arrived at the at the border with Mexico

► 01:52:12

Peanut Festival that try to deny that there was a potion shop on the board Auntie gas was fired and they went down across the river and some of them walking across with a rope some them gone quotes on tires crazy seeing and I do see none of us quite off the bridge and then there came as he was kind of a big deal when invading Army and so forth with these obviously have a blown but like I think it was significant seems quite store exceeds the what happened down there and what was the overall goal to make it through to the United States people at different ideas it's kind of fun is weird things that I like it was scary night States now some people have no idea what it will go and have no real plans I'll be very clear I'm cases of being a refugee understanding a bit about Refugee legislation

► 01:53:05

and I'm not playing very specific cases with that being targeted by gangs working with corrupt police who want to kill them who like hack them and they're running like I want to seek refuge in the United States or Mexico, missing represent Mexico

► 01:53:22

you know the safest place to see animals killed in Mexico of the United States military intervening and trying to do something about the cartels

► 01:53:38

so that's been like a US

► 01:53:42

can I buy some US forces light US Marshals sometimes I'm very proud of sovereignty and doesn't want us Foods acting in Mexico nothing like the other kind of idea really of US military military is pretty out there I was pretty I really like it wouldn't help if he's be both down into more problems and maybe not die next cut full. But I hop in some cases of us doing some kind of activity in Mexico life example when they went off the Chapo Guzman when they go ahead and there's a big shootout in the first time I see without shots fired

► 01:54:26

and they went to prison escaped that one escape from he's just get more than once right step twice yeah yeah the one tunnel is game with an electric bike went to the John and went to the bathroom just stepped behind the door and he's gone I was saying it was really weird when I went to New York right now seeing him in the Court New York like seeing him in the flesh after all these years covering his stuff and I saw him and it was like I don't know what is Village before I told his mama. Stay the night with his cousin in any in his village wound up in the mountains you know what's it like up there it's quite a Rocky Mountains Sierra Madre Road

► 01:55:26


► 01:55:30

these people win a woman around now fully armed so guys like ski mask like camouflage gear, Gear ski mask AK-47 just like on my quad bikes just driving around the area wow I never went out there with a colleague and a photographer for Time Magazine and we went out there and drive it to the Village eye doctor a bottle of whiskey drinking to take an offer today to the family members selling his way as a bottle of whiskey to When we arrive there and he said we could stay at his house upon the whiskey City nice and he said we can drink in this house with Christians Jennifer Christian quote in the Bible

► 01:56:23

well I, stuffy nose like it's because you're not understanding right in front of our house and we sat through a three-hour Evangelical service I'm sitting there with Chapo's mom there a family member was sitting there and the baby when he said like you stay with me

► 01:56:50

are you my responsibility if something happens you have to pay for this behave ourselves in here and somebody from the US and come out in this in this chest ceremony so yeah really really bizarre things of being of Evangelical Christian being involved in essentially a mass murderer and Drug running operation

► 01:57:30

can I hear how much you might be to vote in the past but this is his he says he's he's he's a he's a father that I'm the mother I'm Chapo's mother who's 88 89 90 now she talks about her son with kind of pride a push too hard. I'm a pretty hot in Minot

► 01:57:59

but I but yeah I mean day this is this is the way I live from this music to seeing him in the cool we kind of bizarre singing a singing right hand in New York Brooklyn and right and yeah and they pull it would have these crazy car cuz if it is as a corporate Witnesses important full to incorporating Witnesses heavily heavily protected I think it was ethically questionable why they bought all those people in and they were they born one guy whose nickname is chupeta who confessed himself is -150 kg

► 01:58:41

maybe the little more and and he makes a deal likely makes a deal to corporate against El Chapo so you getting too kind of weird intrigued I'm about to come was doing this whole case John Gotti and Sammy the bull gravano who is admitted murderer and talked about the murder so that he committed and still they'll allow them to get free John Gotti's lawyer Chapo of course, please connect with the things I've been saying all the last few years and they didn't really get a New York

► 01:59:35

denied A Day vitamin A bunch of places and I think I chose New York for the reason I wanted more of a show while I think I think that make them pay for it no more than fifty Witnesses at 3 and 3 month trial it was his defense defense of Defense of how does it kind of conspiracy I'm off like showing things at Fast and Furious you mentioned like saying oh how come the government's trafficking guns to cartels and one of the witnesses hip hop. Before use this weird the Fenn School Public Authority said he had permission from the United States government to traffic drugs if I please sign as kind of conspiracy about the Mexican Government study corrupt I'm walking cartels the US government is corrupt and working cartels in heaven verse 3 sizes and El Chapo is kind of a fool guy that I put in the display

► 02:00:35

now. Didn't really difficult us prosecutors shot down in the judge they just said you can talk about this stuff you can say that so I went fast and furious came up they said no you can't talk about it I can't talk about it talk about in the well that's at the Glee ambiguous is like that's a real thing that happened yet and the defense quite a bit well that it would be as if that's how you know it's him I need Siri the main guy in Sinaloa cartel was well I possibly know the top gun is in our car tell him I will be another guy who miles and bother who's really the number one and he might be more than emblematic figure but for some reason El Chapo became the most famous

► 02:01:25

in the world and so this other guy is he still free they still free and where is he at somewhere in mind it's Mexico in the mountains with things you think like if your drug lord and you've got hold of the money now you got millions billions individually but then you've got you think you could go somewhere out for these guys tend to be in there places that that that that people like some of these people to people who are brown education Chapel who's the kid he was carrying sacks full of oranges to sell online education and they start handling

► 02:02:10

hundred the billions of dollars getting the billion-dollar international business and I caught their capacity to understand and deal with that at the same time they still really hyper local in some way if it's too like people who they understand they are well. It's hiding from their environment to control him to come off to their environment I'm to come kind of powerful in in that place was in that place but now they couldn't give them gone to like sitting in a serving in Cafe in can run it from there. It's going to be on that we have to be there at your near the business cuz otherwise we'll just take it over right Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeahs run that thing with an iron fist yeah I mean you could think that you'll maybe like yeah I guess I won't rip you off so how much money do you need to make Maybe

► 02:03:10

tekdeals Blaziken ex governor call Tomas yarrington do I met a few years ago when he was governor, Lieber State and lieutenant governor going to drug trafficking himself

► 02:03:26

as if it were a bunch of made a couple of million do you need to make a note template in but I always want to make more money I don't know me we were talking about that recently was Jeff Bezos when he found out he has a hundred and fifty billion dollars like when do you just say we're good we're good I mean I don't think it becomes it's a game more than it is anything else like there might as well be playing Parcheesi or Monopoly or what other trying to win you know they're trying to constantly win and also you have an obligation cuz you're a CEO of this company so you you're running this enormous business it's raining money for all these other people as well it's all very complicated though that has to do with a lot of psychological factors work people can't put things into perspective and they get caught up in the race. Same thing like

► 02:04:26

good night table to explain to be involved in this world they make a lot of money but I spend a lot of money in billion dollars is that in that case is what 14 billion but then he's in a billion dollars worth of Ray Liotta time you're paying back supplies you're paying people off your own money and you know if you could hold covered rolls-royce's a middle-class to normal haunted house by what the fuk happened with Sean Penn why was Sean Penn up there talking to him that was so strange that photograph

► 02:05:26

shaking hands with me and then Conor McGregor war that same t-shirt and he was going to fight Eddie Alvarez I believe it was yeah what was that about why was Sean Penn visiting him I mean you have a doctor who played gangsters an actor who played gangsters with a gangsta who that having in a movie made about here and there was a woman that Sean Penn new that hooked us all up right next to you but she's a famous Mexican actress story started so Kate de Castillo you see that she was an actress in a TV series about drug traffickers which is now.

► 02:06:26

Tuesday to let America they cool. Like one called La Reina Del Sur the queen of the South Africa

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► 02:06:46

off the woods in some kind of weird moment authors I think she was not really into the rolling stuff she came out with this message you wrote saying I'm going to Mexico is in touch with his tragic situation in Mexico water when I come in a drug traffickers, unlike traffic would love I trust you more than I do the government I'm which is the Visa card sentiments that some people have it and I was kind of a strange thing going to be out laughing 440 Vista de se on Den Chapo El Chapo County became kind of in a man with her signal on TV communication

► 02:07:35

now Sean Penn then got involved in this I'm like and I'm going to go there as well and we can talk about the identity of the potential the meeting was as well talking about making a movie or TV series of his story Chapel giving the rights to take the Castillo and Sean Penn's coming voting and somehow she has a bit of discussion not now that Sean Penn and Kate del Castillo fell out of it is. Different versions what happened that but not showing panties are just going to write the story for Rolling Stone about to experience so they went then this meeting was arranged and they went up to the mountains and when I photos taken now they eat that point he did not to give an interview

► 02:08:24

to Champaign to the how to dinner at a meeting up in the mountains and I'm then left and then never meant it off that was that was in it a big attempt to hit Chapo but he escaped so that's when some people say that the Mexican government has followed them and use their that tries to try and get to the chapel but he didn't Skype you must got caught close to that question office by Skype it's make sense I mean how else would Sean Penn be able to slide through is a famous actor I bet he doesn't even speak Spanish yet I think about okay if I'm going to meet criminals

► 02:09:16

am I being followed and am I going to lead know what's my connection with Laura Fort Worth Convention of criminals to very difficult thing I've been piloting the bathroom so anyway Chapo escapes and then said he couldn't be up again for the interview because he was it was too hot for them so they made this video interview where he was sent some questions any video of himself all answering the questions we just got interesting with the first kind of statement he made and he said I know everything's about 15 miles away

► 02:09:56

and then he was cool to money was cool. We go to move to storage than the story come out by now if he was cool and early 2016 show me some sort of an impact it is possible before 2014 was

► 02:10:20

imprison escaped in 2015 to that tunnel and then we're cool again in 2016 so yeah Me Maybe I knew what they were looking for a lost loved his protection and he will hit before and I got back a few years and I had known as protection has mountains I mean in the village of mine clearing what is Mother's compound is up from there you see a house on a hill to find out who I was shopping for a long time so you stay in the house on the run in the past he had so much protection Denny's on the military will come close all the mountain you got hundreds of people in a regular size dick Lehr

► 02:11:10

man what a crazy world you study really it's it's amazing out I really appreciate you coming here in and talk to me about this and this book is El Narco do you have more books that are available yet she'll see my Facebook sell Nautica my second book is a gangster Warlords which also has stuff on the MS-13 on the damage in Brazil gangs in Jamaica is what is Mexico and I'm working on myself book now and the third book is about about gun trafficking listen man I really appreciate your time and that you you've lived a very very fascinating life stay safe out there man and a great to be appreciate that very much thank you everyone for tuning in to the show and thank you to our sponsors thank you to ZipRecruiter ladies and gentlemen do you need to hire someone but please stop fucking around and go to ziprecruiter.com Rogan you can try it today

► 02:12:10

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► 02:13:10

Rogan and check it out last but not least we are brought to you by the cash app the number one finance app in the app store for a very good reason get yourself the cash app and the cash card download it from the app store or the Google Play Market order your cash card today and use the referral code Joe Rogan when you download it all one word you get five dollars $5 to go to support our good friend Justin runs fight for the Forgotten charity helping to build Wells for the pygmies in the Congo and we are also pleased at the cash app will be continuing its support of UFC fighter Ray Borg Son by donating an additional $5 to help cover his medical bills at least until Ray is able to get back into the octagon thank you friend appreciate you much love to you all bye-bye