#1258 - Jack Dorsey, Vijaya Gadde & Tim Pool

The Joe Rogan Experience #1258 - Jack Dorsey, Vijaya Gadde & Tim Pool

March 5, 2019

Jack Dorsey is a computer programmer and Internet entrepreneur who is co-founder and CEO of Twitter, and founder and CEO of Square, a mobile payments company. Vijaya Gadde serves as the global lead for legal, policy, and trust and safety at Twitter. Tim Pool is an independent journalist. His work can currently be found at http://timcast.com

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OurTime find really high quality meat this your go-to Source butcherbox.com again using discount code Rogan at checkout you get twenty bucks off and free ground beef okay now boy boy boy do I have a show for you today post okay well if you are regular regular regular what is that a regular listener this podcast you know that I did a podcast while back with Jack Dorsey from Twitter and the response was positive and negative but in the interest of dealing with a negative we decided to have Jack back on but this time with Tim pool Tim pools and independent journalist and he's been heavily critical of Jack and of Twitter and along with them we brought in Vijaya I don't know how to say the last name Gadde I think it's. I don't sorry but Joe is

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she's I guess she's the head of their trust and safety committees are correct either way she provided us with some much-needed insight as to why people get banned when they get banned what they're trying to do to alleviate the woes of censorship give people a path to Redemption and you know Tim pool he goes hard in the paint so he went hard in the paint it was a great upgrade episode of podcast it's a long one a lot to do with censorship the implications of censorship and I'm talking too much as it is so please welcome Tim Pool, Jack Dorsey, Vijaya

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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Life plays and gentleman to my left Tim Tim pool everybody knows and loves them Big Daddy got it in your position at Twitter is I lead chest and safety legal and public policy first of all thank you everybody for doing this appreciate it thank you thank you we're all nuts this is really happening here we go before we get started we should say because if there were some things that people wanted to have us talk about 1 that the cash app is one of the sponsors of the podcast Vince Vaughn super long time and also a giant supporter of my good friend Justin Brands fight for the Forgotten charity building Wells for the pygmies in the Congo this is very important to me and I'm very happy

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that you guys are part of that and you are connected to that I don't mean it's easy for someone to say that doesn't have an influence on the way we discuss things but it doesn't so if it does I don't know what to tell you by mention to just cuz I don't want people to come out and freak out later I actually have like 80 shares and square which is really that much but but it's something you know whatever you're the CEO of square I think we had a great conversation last time but there's a lot of people that were upset that they were some issues that we didn't discuss or didn't discuss in-depth enough or they felt that I didn't press you enough I talked to Tim because you know Tim and I have talked before and he made a video about it and I felt like his criticism was very valid so we got on the phone and we talked about it and I knew immediately within the first few minutes of conversation that he was far more educated about this than I was so I said would

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willing to do a podcast in perhaps you a podcast with Jack and he said absolutely so we did a podcast it together it was really well-received people felt like we covered a lot of the issues that they felt like I didn't bring up and so then Jack and I discussed it and we said bullets bring Tim on and then have vagina on as well so that right that's a hard one sorry I'll get it right I promise but what's up where are we going today do you know what Sean Baker is he's a doctor who has a prominent proponent of the carnivore diet his post was his account was frozen today but I just sent it to Jamie yeah his account was frozen today because of an image that he had cuz he's a proponent of the carnivore diet there's a lot of people that believe that this Elimination Diet is very healthy for you and it's known to cure a lot of autoimmune issues with certain people but some people ideologically opposed if they think it's bad for the environment or you shouldn't

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meet or whatever the reasons are this is huge in the the Bitcoin Community well it's a lot of people that have autoimmune issues with particular psoriasis and arthritis it is a lifesaver it's crazy it's essentially it's an auto-immune issue so because he has a photo of a lion in a header eating it looks like a wildebeest or something like that his account was locked for violating rule rules against graphic violence or adult content in profile images that seems a little silly and I thought I wanted to just mention that right away and whose decision is something like that like who decides to lock a guy's account out because it has a nature image of you know natural predatory behavior tonight to talk to it and made some sort of an assessment that as a general rule how we operate as a company as we rely on people to report information to us so if you look at any tweet you can kind of pull down on that carrot on the right

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and you can say report the tweet and then you have a bunch of categories you can choose from what you want to report I think that's one in particular though it's probably not for them so how does it does have the option to protest that or to ask someone to review it absolutely I am guessing that people are already reviewing it but there's a choice to appeal any action and that would go to a human to make sure that it is actually a violation of the rules are in this case if it's not then it would be removed is that a violation of rules that image I don't think so I don't think that that would be what we're trying to capture in terms of graphic images in an avatar it's more about violence towards that humans unless it was some sort of Cruelty to pick taking your house or something like that but not the intention of the role of the reason why I wanted to bring this up immediately this highlight a flaw in the system in that people can Target an individual cuz it with him he's a heat like I said he's a doctor and a proponent of this carnivore diet but he's also

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ruthless in his condemnation and mocking of vegans does it all the time until then they get it and upset at him and they can Target posts and just report them and mass and when they do that then this becomes an issue reveal part of you know the challenges that we face is a global platform at scale and desperate I don't I don't know what happened in this case are you it's hard for me to talk about it but what I would say is that doesn't really matter if one person reports it or 10,000 people report it like we're going to review the reports and we're going to make an assessment and we're never going to let you know kick someone off the platform finally and Forever Without a person taking a look and making sure that is an actual violation reporting Behavior does it happens across the Spectrum I have to assume it's going to be One Direction. I can't imagine he would Target vegans but vegans would talk to him right

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begin to get them banned from Twitter you don't limitations of white people Barber Board are different and it's not always under someone's control even be other carnivore diet proponents who are just jerks that don't like him cuz he's getting all the love people are weird yeah but it's just the idea though it does kind of highlight a bit of a flaw in that it's good that someone can look as you might see something awful someone talks and summer something like that and then you can take that and report it and then people can see it and get rid of it and minimize the damage that's done that there's another big problem here in that is the carnivore diet legitimately healthy is it a threat to your health and if it is is what is Twitter's responsibility in controlling the information right so just to clarify my my my opinion is if he wants to be a performer for the carnivore

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but you've got people on YouTube or being deranked for certain beliefs about certain health issues that I don't agree with and so one of the risks that is you know we're coming towards a position where people think some ideas are better than others therefore as a company we're going to restrict access to certain information you mean like anti-vax exactly like false information about vaccines I could get someone hurt

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that is not a violation of Twitter's rules no option to hear your ideas around us both are our perspective right now is around this concept of variety perspective like are we are we encouraging more Echo Chambers and filter bubbles or we at least showing people other information that might be counter to what they see and there's there's a bunch of research I would suggest that further and buildings reviews there's also research that would suggest that it at least gives him a consideration about what they're what they currently believe so would you guys like being completely public we're not organized around communities were not working as run topics we have a little bit more freedom to show more of the spectrum of any one particular issue and I think that's how we would we would approach it from the start that said we haven't really dealt much with misinformation we're probably across like

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a source of topics we've we've focused our efforts on elections and what made me elections right now that the Earth is flat if you're gullible and you watch a 45-minute YouTube video right now it's it's kind of a different thing but I want I want to just kind of get into that statement you made about misinformation and whether or not you'll police it so I can part of this is really in love to have a discussion about this do you really want corporations to police what's true and not true absolutely that's a really really tough position that we try not to do that we don't want to do that but the places that we focus on is where we think that people are going to be harmed by this in a direct intangible way that we feel a responsibility to correct him what you mean by that like that name is deadnaming and Miss gender-specific ideology that's unique to a very small fraction of people in this world that you guys actually ban people for

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behavior-based I know you think of it as content and we can we can disagree on this point but this is about why are you doing this to a trans person why are you calling them by this name when they chosen to go by a different name or why are you adding them in some way what is your intent and purpose behind the explain what deadnaming means so so I transgender individual changes their name when they transition a deadname would be their birth name or the name that went by before the transition so my mom's probably going to clarify to your role specifically targeted misgendering and a naming I believe that we call our hateful conduct policy and that prohibits targeting or attacking someone based on their belonging and in any number of groups whether it's because of their religion or their race or their gender or sexual orientation or gender identity so it was something that the broad base is that you if you can't choose to it

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people because of these characteristics but you do have limits on what characteristics do police write so you're not you're not Banning people for targeted trans-species and others right I will be right because you can't engage an abusive harassment on the block someone but you can call them stupid I mean if you create an account that only was there to call the same person stupid 5,000 times we probably do that as a you know what is ultimately silent you from a pot farmer to say like I give up I want to deal with this thing I'm I'm out into all of the big examples I mean start with me about 2:10 but can we just take a step back and try to level set what we're trying to do with our policies

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how to tame I believe that everyone has a voice and should be able to use it and I want them to be able to use it online now where we draw a line is when people use their voice and use their platform two of these are also other people to silence them because I think that that's what we've seen over the years is the number of people who have been silenced online because of the abuse and harassment they received any either stop talking or they leave the platform and it's a party if you look at free expression and Free Speech laws around the world they're not absolute they're not absolute there's always limitations on what you can say and it's when you're starting to endanger other people so it's my question then is when I was physically threatened on Twitter you guys refused to take down the street and I showed up in Berkeley and someone physically threatening me because they were encouraged to when I was in Venezuela I was physically threatened by high-profile individual 10,000 people tweeting at me you guys do nothing right so I guess there's the obvious question of why does it always feel like your policies are going One Direction politically you say it's about behaviors that several times already but I've already got tons of examples of

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not being the case and you will always be able to find those example that you guys were alerted multiple times and did nothing like when antifa doxxed a bunch of law enforcement agents some of its way to remove butts in September this tweet is still alive with a list of private phone numbers addresses yet Kathy Griffin she's fine the guy who threatened the lives of these kids in Covington and said lock him in school right now you did nothing I mean you got to spend it was he banned for threatening the lives of kids absolutely not we have and I am happy to talk about all these details we have our policies that are meant to protect people and they're meant to enable for expression as long as you're not trying to silence somebody else now we take a variety of different enforcement mechanisms around that sometimes you get warned sometimes we were your Tweet is forced to be deleted it's a very rare occasion where we will outright suspend someone without any sort of warning or any sort of ability to understand what happened what did you guys do with Kathy Griffin when she was saying she want the names of

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young kids would win the Maga hats at the Covington high school kids talking to her name's to be private we consider your home address your home phone to your home phone number or your mobile phone number those types of things to be private so that particular case we took what I think now is probably a very literal interpretation of our policy and said that that was not a doxxing and said there was an error I think that it was short-sighted and given the context of what was going on there that if I was doing this all over again I would probably ask my team to look at that through the lens of what was the purpose behind that tweet and if the purpose was in fact you identify these kids either dock them or abused and harassed them which I probably was then we should be taking a more expansive view of of that policy and including that type of content especially considering the fact they're minors I would think that right away that would be the approach so this is a trial and error sort of learned and

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move on with new information sort of a deal with hundreds of millions are going to count all around the world numerous languages we're going to make mistakes even if we get better throw always being a text but we're hoping to learn from those and to make ourselves better and to catch cases like Timbs are others where we clearly may have made an error and I'm open to to having those discussions I'm not I'm sorry that I'm familiar with your specific cases but I'd love to follow up with you and really try to understand antifa tweet all lowercase this is also an evolution in participation as well one of the things we've come to recently as we do we do need to we do need to private are these efforts both in terms of policy enforcement how are thinking about evolving them one of the things that we want to focus on as number one is physical safety and this leads you immediately to something like doxxing in right now.

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only way we take action on a dachshund case is if it's reported or not what we want to move to is to be able to recognize those in real time at least in the English language recognize those in real time for machine learning algorithms and take the action before has to report it to wear Focus purely right now on going after a dachshund cases with our our them so that we can be practice that also requires a much more rigorous appeals process to correct us when we're wrong but we think it's tightly scoped enough it impacts the most important thing which is someone's physical safety once we learn from that we can really look at that the biggest issue with our system right now is all the burden is placed upon the victim so we only act based on reports weed we don't have a lot of enforcement especially with with more than more than more the takedowns that are run through machine learning and deep-learning out

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are there a series of reports that you never get to there's probably reports we don't let me we prioritize a Q based on severity and this is the thing at Walmart severity of something like physical safety or private information generally we try to get through everything but we have to prioritize IQ even coming in so if if someone threatened the lives of someone else you would you ban that account would you tell them like let's say someone tweeted 3 * kill these people I want them dead three times is that I want to give out specific usernames because then that people just point the finger at me and saying I'm getting these people band but Covington this guy said multiple times to he wanted his followers to go and kill these kids and we have to look at that but we also have a look in the contacts cuz we also have I think we talked about this a little bit in the last podcast but we we have Gamers on the platform who are saying exactly that to their friends that they're going to meet at the

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in the game tonight and without the context of their relationship without the context of the conversation that we're having to take the exact same action on on them incorrectly stand I think in the case of Covington know this user was so high-profile he's a verified user he's got something like 20,000 followers and it was highlighted by numerous conservative media Outlets saying wow this guy's a screenshot of being shared I mean here to Disney producer like saying a picture of a wood chipper with a body being thrown in it saying that's what he wanted to happen you know it's what I do know that some of these accounts, I'll clarify fact check me on that but that's the basically the conversation that was handed this guy Disney was he posted a picture of him Fargo of someone being tossed in a wood chipper and he says I want all these Maga kids you know don't like this you had another guy who specifically said lock them in the school burn it down said a bunch of disparaging things and then said If you see them fire on that money to that more than once

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but I'm pretty sure it's actually illegal to do that right it's 2-2 to tell it to tell your individual to commit a felony is a crime like right now I just have to wonder how it how it like I understand the context issue but this is what I talked about the tweets were forced to be deleted and the account or short for that so I understand that we suspend accounts with one violation because we want people to learn we want people to understand what they did wrong and give him an opportunity not to do it again and it's a big thing to kick someone off a platform and I take that very very seriously so I want to make sure that when someone violates our rules they understand what happened and they are given an opportunity to you know get back on the platform and change their behavior and so in many of these cases what happens if

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before someone to acknowledge that their tweet violated our rules force them to delete that tweet before they can get back on the platform and in in many cases if they do it again we give him a time out which is like seven days and you've done it again what's the temperature has mentioned if you do it your mom I'm totally or not exactly and Strikes are like baseball and so in some of these cases at Tim's referencing I have to imagine cuz you sweets were deleted they are violations of our rules people are upset that the account came back again and was allowed to say other things but we did take action on those streets they were violations of them that you have people like Milo who is mean to a person and you delete you banned him permanently there's are more than actually brought the tweets because it was so let's preface that by saying the point I want to make sure it's clear is that you had somebody who actively called for the death of people understand the context issue maybe he's talking about video games

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so this is a verified user and in Dutchess the complexity in enacting an excuse for why we didn't do it in and then said that I prepared so here we have someone with over 20,000 followers he's verified numerous times insights his followers to commit a crime against these kids the action taken against him is deleted tweets you can suspend can you get time out then you have people like Alex Jones who berated a CNN reporter permanently banned you get Milo yiannopoulos he was being criminally band let's do this one at a time would start with Milo what was the details of Milo tweets that violated our rules going back to 2014 but I'm going to talk about the final three concept he claimed to be a buzzfeed reporter in his bio and he's a verified account so that is impersonation I'm not sure why he did that need to do that

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BuzzFeed the left wing thing so he was doing parody rules are very specific. If you have an account that's me being is a parody account you need to say that it is a parody account but who knows Milo would know that he's not a buzzfeed reporter that people who don't know my allowable blood shot that man and they wasn't so the Bible by the verification was removed because of the BuzzFeed thing I believe that someone he posted private information about an individual that was the second one he tweeted to somebody else if you were my child I'd have dashed your head on a rock and try it again which we viewed as a threat

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really seems like he's saying like your mom should've swallowed you you know it's like you know I'm saying is like you or Euro a mistake I don't think that's a threat I understand why reasonable people would have different Impressions I'm just going through and telling you what they are just going to have all the facts on the table and debate them and then the last one we found a bunch of things that he posted that we viewed as incitement of abuse against Leslie Jones there's a bunch of them but the one that I like to look at it which really convinced me is he posted to doctor tweets that were supposedly by Leslie Jones they were fake tweets the first one said white people are getting on my nerves like how can you call yourself human and then the second one's said the goddamn a slur for a Jewish person at Sony ain't paid me yet damn Bix nood better pay up

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chopped to take to bake and we know they were faked because we could still tell from the the the software and they were faked is you can always tell so it is possible that he didn't know they were faked and send it to him and he didn't do his due diligence and looking it up and he said don't tell me some mr. this internet Rascal made them up! So this in the context of a bunch of other things he was saying towards Leslie Jones on Twitter I and my team felt that this was taken as a whole incitement of harassment against her wasn't there another issue with multiple accounts that were connected to him there were a bunch of other issues on the background but these are the three primary things that we looked at in terms of the other things that were in the background worth a multiple accounts that were connected to him like

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I think that I'm not sure about that Joe I think it was more that we found him to be engaging and coordinated behavior and inciting people to to attack Leslie Jones like him know I'm just going to be honest what I'm listening to those or listening to read those tweets out they don't sound that bad they certainly don't sound as bad as calling for the death of a child was wearing a Maga hat throw into a woodchuck or the fact that guy still out there tweeting and yet Milo's not Milos initial the whole thing stemmed from other than the BuzzFeed thing stemmed from his legitimate criticism of the film and he's you know he's a satirist he was mocking this film Twitter should take extra hundred percent certain people in real life and I take an enormous amount of responsibility for that because I feared daily for the things that are happening on the platform that are translating into the

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the world so Milo is a contentious figure and they're certainly things you can pull up that I wouldn't agree with anything you did there I think those are horrible I think Joe got some really good points but what about Chuck Johnson why was Jack Johnson band

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I don't have those details in front of me Chuck Johnson said that he was preparing something to take out DeRay McKesson and in the end of journalistic contact people take us to me and he was going to do a dossier or some kind of hippie tsundere it's probably band am I understanding and it's been a long time since I've read this there was some Leaf two emails I think from dick costolo where he said it wasn't I don't know who it was exactly they said I don't care to get rid of him and he was so you have it again maybe there's some hidden contacts there I don't know but on the surface we concern is that this is always leaning towards the left I would absolutely. I can understand why you feel that way I don't think that's true I think we look at each individual instance of violations of our rules and try to make the best case that we can go just to just to say I do think we've failed in a couple ways and I want admit that number one we haven't done enough education about what rules are a lot of people violate our rules and I don't even know it like some of the switches

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that we looked at like for a lot of first-time users of the platform if they violate the rule once almost two-thirds of them never violate the rules again so we're not talking about like a bunch of people accidentally like if they know what the rules are most people can avoid the most people when they feel the sting of the violation that go okay I don't want to lose my rights to post let me tonight in the first place the only thing we have to do to address these allegations that we're doing this from a biased perspective it should be really clear about what types of behavior are called by our rules and what types are not and be transparent with in the products there when a particular tweet is found to be in violation of our rules being very very clear like this week was found to be in violation of this particular role and that's all work that we're doing and we think the combination of education and transparency is really important for tickly for an open platform like Twitter it's it's just part of who we are and we have to build it into the product I appreciate that your particular thoughts though on those examples that he just

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when he talking about someone saying they should throw these children into a wood chipper vs Chuck Johnson saying he should take this guy he wants to prepare. CA to take this guy out her how do you say it I want something like I'm going to take out DeRay McKesson with he said I'm preparing to take out there some like that I can't understand how he misconstrued as he was trying to assassinate him the other ones that director at 1 guys banned for life the other guy is still posted and I'm happy to follow up I just don't have all the chance that it's not about one thing that it's about a pattern and practice of violating and when we don't want to kick someone off for one thing but if there's a pattern and practice like there was for Milo we are going to have to take action at some point because we can't sit back and let people be abused and harassed and silenced on cloud one really important thing that needs to be stated that Twitter by definition is a bias platform in favor of the left. This is a question I understand you might have your own interpretation but it's very simple conservatives do not agree with you on the

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initiative misgendering if you have a rule in place that specifically adheres to the left ideology You by default are enforcing rules from a biased perspective lets him there a lot of people in the last you don't agree with how we're doing our job is for sure and those people think that we don't take enough action on a craftsman then we left far too much Behavior go and they think of the things we need for more left would you agree to that I don't know what that means but in this particular case it's a speech is being used that this is a new Vector of attack that people have felt that I don't want to be on the platform anymore because I'm being harassed and abuse and I need to get the hell out of all people harassing to be with me all day and now you don't do anything about that

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like I might my notifications permanently locked at night now you're the worst and I do I mean you got substantially more followers and I don't click notifications have anymore because it's basically just harassment and I even when so this is really funny and picked out I was covering the story in Berkeley and someone said if you see him attack him like it was it was I'm paraphrasing they said basically to swing at me take my stuff still for me and Twitter told me after if you was not a violation of their policy somebody made an allusion to me being a homosexual and I reported that instantly done so when I shot so so for me I'm looking like a full-course of course we are going to enforce the social justice aspect of their policy immediately in my opinion probably cuz you guys have PR constraints and you're probably nervous about that but when someone actually threatens me with a crime in inside their files to do nothing got done I'm not the only one who feels that way and threatens to hurt you that's a violation of our rules maybe there was a mistake there and I'm happy to go and we can do

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offline so we don't fear any sort of reprisal against you but that's a mistake that's not an agenda on my part or in the teams part I don't know Alex Jones Oliver Darcy one of the lead reporters covering Alex Jones and its contents that on CNN that it was only after media pressure to do social networks take action so that's why I bring up specifically cuz it implies you are under PR constraints to get rid of him I think if you look at the pr that's what I went through in that incident it wouldn't be that we've looked good in it and that's not at all why we took extra you have to look at the Spectrum are because

► 00:39:31

one of the things that happened over a weekend is what Alex mentioned on your on your podcast with him he was removed from the iTunes podcast directory that was that was the linchpin for him because it it drove all the traffic to what he said basically zero

► 00:39:51

immediately after that we saw our Pure companies Facebook Spotify YouTube also take action we did not we did not because we when we looked at our service and we looked at the reports on their service we did not find anything in violation of our rules then we got into a situation where suddenly a bunch of people were reporting

► 00:40:16

contact on our platform including CNN who were nautical about all the things that might violate our rooms rules that we looked into and we gave him one of the other warnings and then we can get into the actual details but yeah we did not follow we we resisted just being like a domino with our peers because it wasn't consistent with our rules and with the contract we put in before our customers so what was it that made you Bantam after the fact that were reported To Us by by different users are there was a video that was uploaded that showed a child being violently thrown to the ground and crying so that was the first one the second one was a video of that we viewed as incitement to violence I can read it to you it's a little a little bit of a transcript but but now it's time to act on the enemy before they do a false flag I know the Justice Department's crippled a bunch of followers and cowards but there's groups their grandson

► 00:41:16

there's you called for it it's time to let it lie economically and judiciously and legally and criminally to move against these people it's got to be done now get together the people you know aren't Traders aren't cowards aren't helping their frickin bats hedging their frickin bats like all these other assholes do in let's go let's do it so people need to have their and then there's a bunch of other stuff but at the end so people need to have their battle rifles ready and everything ready at their bedside and you got to be ready because the media is so disciplined in their deception

► 00:41:43

so this is your you're saying that this is a call to violence against the media that's what it sounded like the time and there been a number of incidents of violence against the media and again I take my responsibility for what happens on a platform and how that translates off platform very seriously and that felt like it was an incitement to buy if he only put it inside man to violence would have been fine if he only could be only tweeted that puts that transcript saying figure battle rifles ready you wouldn't have deleted his account about one thing so we have to look at the entire context of what's going on she has enough for you to say that alone that wasn't there was a number to the question is what was the video contest of the kid being thrown to the ground was it newsworthy we would allow in the bottom or even if it's News contact if it was that there are certain types of situations where if you were reporting on you no war zone and and things that might be happening we would put a interstitial on

► 00:42:43

type of content is graphic or violent but we didn't feel that that was the context year the one where the girls were yelling at that big giant guy and the guy punched a girl in the face and she was 11 years old I saw that multiple times on Twitter that was one of those vile things overseeing the giant man punched his eleven-year-old girl in the face and that was was that removed from Twitter I don't know why I would have to go see if anyone reported it to us I think one of the issues here is to is that we looked at was a verbal altercation that Alex got into with a journalist and in that altercation in which was uploaded to Twitter there were a number of statements using eyes of the Rat even more evil looking person he's just scum you're a virus to America and freedom smelling like a possum that climbed out of the rear end of a dead cow you look like a possum that got caught doing some really really nasty

► 00:43:43

awesome idea there was a bunch of that's about really that's hilarious warns that we have rules against abuse and harassment of individuals we saw this pattern and practice one starts to strike three strikes and we made a decision to permanently last one was on Periscope what it was and he broadcast through I think it was originally on Periscope but it was also reposted from multiple related accounts on to Twitter so we can we can agree with you when you say this thing was like you know Alex at this sounds like a threat he was riding the person saying awful things but ultimately your judgment is the contact you say we have to pay attention to contacts we just trusting that you made the right decision well I'm giving you as much boxes I I can give your hair and I think that this is the real hard part of content moderation a scale on global platforms it's not easy and I don't think

► 00:44:43

I would tell you that it's either so Preposterous volume do you guys have to deal with and that's one of things that I wanted to get in touch with Jack when I first had them on because my thought and I wasn't as concerned about the censorship as many people were my main concern was what is it like to start this thing that's kind of for fun and then all the sudden it becomes the premier platform for free speech on the planet Earth it is that but it's also a platform that's you serve using her as a lot of people and in use in ways that none of us wanted to be used but unless it happens when I think it's an enormously complicated challenge for any company to do content moderation of scale and that's something that we are sitting down thinking about how do we take this forward so let's let's together contacts in that we've heard what you said why was Alex Jones it was bad and now we can look at it this way Oliver Darcy who has on numerous occasions insulted conservatives recently on CNN called them gullible being sold red meat

► 00:45:43

grifters repeatedly cover is a story I'm going to do are quotes because I think when I sent he's allowed to cover the stories he keeps going after Alex Jones he keeps digging through his history then he goes on TV and says we got him banned then Alex Jones confronts him in a very aggressive and mean way and that's your justification for 4 or I should say the time 1 basically you have someone was a relentlessly digging through stuff insulting you calling you names sifting through history trying to find anything they can to get your terminated going on TV even tried numerous stories you confront them and say you're evil and you say a bunch of really awful mean things and then you buy them right so I can you post that information all over the internet but you have a journalist who recently went on TV and said CPAC is a bunch of gullible conservatives being fed red meat by grifters you can tell this guy is not got out of the tunnel. It's a genda so what you have it to me it looks like the conservatives to an extent probably will try and mass flag people on the left but from an ideological standpoint you have

► 00:46:43

the actual you know whatever people want to call it sect of identitarian left that believe free speech is a problem that I've literally shut up in Berkeley burning Free Speech signs of conservatives were tweeting mean things and the conservatives are less likely I think it's fair to point out less likely to try it someone else band because they like playing off them and I left is is targeting them so you end up having disproportionate lot of assumptions on what you're saying and I don't know what basis you're saying those things I mean you have conservatives demanding free speech and you have liberals I shouldn't say liberals you have what people referred to as the regressive left calling for the restrictions on speech you have these I don't know what those terms mean to be honest with you we have people on all sides of the spectrum who believe in free speech and I believe that to be the case so your platform restrict speech AR platform promote speech unless people violate our rules in a specific Direction in any direction but Uncle the guy who calls for death get the suspension the guy who insinuate

► 00:47:43

Jack is a permanent ban misinterpreting what I'm saying and I feel like you're doing it deliberately it's not about one particular thing it's about a pattern and practice is violating a little tattered and practice of banning only one faction of people that recently published an article where they would look at 22 high-profile Banning from 2015 and found twenty one of them were only on one side of the cultural debate you're biased and you are you're targeting specific individuals because your rules support this perspective easiest one is misgender ain't right because that's so clearly ideological if you ask a conservative what is misgendering they'll say if someone is biologically male and you call them you know if that's misgender as a conservative you but they Progressive view is inverted so now you actually have in your policies a a rule against the conservative perspective

► 00:48:43

against the abuse and harassment of trans people on our platform that's what I put my rules of concerts in the background party back so we don't make these rules in the vacuum and just to be clear we have a bunch of people all around the world to give his contacts in the types of behavior they're seeing how that translates into real-world harm and they give us feedback I'm a tell us like you should consider different types of rules different types of perspectives different like for example when we try to enforce hateful conduct in are hateful conduct policy in a particular country we're not going to know all the swear words that are used to Target people of a particular race or particular religion so we're going to rely on a building out a team of experts all around the world we're going to help us in force are there any particular case of Miss generating I'm just trying to pull up some of the studies that we looked at but we looked at the American Association of Pediatrics and looked at the number of

► 00:49:43

are youths that were committing suicide in astronomical and sorry I can't find it right now in front of me it's a really really high statistic that's like 10 times with a normal suicide rate is of normal teenagers and we looked at the causes of what that was happening in a lot of ways it was not just violence towards those individuals but it was bullying behavior and what was what were those bullying behaviors that were contributing to that and that's why we made this will because we thought and we believe that those types of behaviors were happening on our platform and we wanted to stop it other exceptions to this rule we don't end this is all at this isn't about like public figures and there's always me public figures that you're going to want to talk about and that's that's fine but this is about are you doing something with the intention of abusing and harassing a trans person on the platform and are they viewing it that way and Reporting it to us so that we take action so I will just stay I actually agree with the rule on from my point of view I agree that bowling in harassing trans people entirely wrong

► 00:50:43

but I just want to make sure it's clear to everybody who's listening my point is simply that you know Ben Shapiro went on a talk show and absolutely refused and that's his should act you know and he's one of the biggest podcasts and in the world so if you have all of his millions upon millions of followers who are looking at this rule saying this goes against my view of the world and yours is literally 60 + million in this country you do have a rule as ideologically bent and it's a true you did the research you believe this well then you have Ben Shapiro who did his research and doesn't believe it and I relied on the American Association of Pediatrics sure he has his sources to 4 when he gives the same as the point is to put it up eat at least wonder if they have that context I don't have nuts and that's where we have also feels it's just explaining the why behind a lot of our Hive Austin reasons I would agree and I think it's fine you did research and you found this to be true but we can't simply say maybe Ben Shapiro and the other conservatives feel this way don't know we have to we can

► 00:51:43

you know the plans I make it's it's it's simply whether you believe it but whether you Justified or not is not the point the point is you do you do have this rule that rule is at odds with conservatives. But I think it is really important is Jack said to the why Behind these things so why is to protect people from abuse and harassment on our class if this is the case because despite these studies and what the other studies are showing there's a gigantic suicide rate amongst trans people. It's a 40% it's it's outrageously large now whether that is because of gender dysphoria with us because of the complications from sexual surgery sexual transition surgery whether it's because of bullying whether it's because of this awful feeling of being born in the wrong gender weather that all that is yet to be determined the fact that they've shown that there is a large amount of trans people that are committing suicide I don't know

► 00:52:43

necessarily think that that makes that makes sense in terms of people from someone's perspective like a Ben Shapiro saying that if you are biologically female if you were born with a double X chromosome you will never be XY if he says that if that's that's a violation of your policy and this is your creating a protected class to go to meet to be targeted an individual who repeatedly repeatedly and saying that never to Martina Navratilova is it to Lova Lova anyway world-class Legend tennis player

► 00:53:43

is being harassed because she says that she doesn't believe that trans women means someone who is biologically male who transitioned to a female should be able to compete in sports against biological females is this something that I agree with this is something I have personally experienced a tremendous amount of harassment because I stood up when there was a woman who is a trans woman who is fighting biological females in mixed martial arts fights and destroying these women and I was saying what you do just watch this and tell me this doesn't look crazy to you well my point is

► 00:54:21

you should be able to express yourself in if you say that you believe someone is biologically male even though they identify as a female that's a perspective that should be valid mean. This is someone's someone's this is a first of all it's biologically correct so we we have a problem in that if your standards and your policies are not biologically accurate then you're dealing with an ideological you know I'm an ideological policy and it just because I mean I don't I don't want to Target trans people I don't want to harass in my certain I don't call anybody whatever they want me if you want to change your name to a woman's name and identify the woman I'm 100% cool with that but

► 00:55:07

by saying I don't think that you should be able to compete as a woman this opens me up for harassment and I never ordered any of it I just don't pay attention to it in Murphy for instance right you can call that talking to her ass meant if Megan Murphy who is off of those that don't know she's out radical feminist who refuses to use the transgender pronouns if she's in an argument with a trans person over whether or not they should be allowed in sports or in biologically female spaces and she refuses to use their pronoun because of her ideology you'll ban them again and it's also not banned permanently like you get warrants she was being permanently but was like she was warned you about what happened it wasn't cuz you explain it to me what would what did she actually do my understanding and I don't have the Tweet fights with the way that I did for the others but my understanding is that she was warned multiple times for Miss Jen during an individual that she was in an argument with in this individual

► 00:56:07

actually bringing a lawsuit against her in Canada as well so it is again and you've and only one of those people rule that attempts to address what we have perceived to be instances of abusive harassment is never a woman if that's what she's saying and then biologically she's correct we obviously have a debate here this is not a clear-cut this is not something like you need say water is wet you know this is dry it's this is not like something you could prove this is something where are you you have to acknowledge that there is an understanding that if someone is a trans person we all agree to consider them a woman and to think of them as a woman to talk to them and red dress them with their dad preferred name and their preferred pronouns but biologically this is not accurate so we have it we have a divided here we have a divided between the conservative estimation of what's Happening

► 00:57:07

and then the definition that's the liberal definition of it if you're taking those viewpoints in your targeting a specific person in a way that reflects your intent abuse and harassment what if it's in the context of the conversation what if she saying that I don't think that trans women should be allowed in these female spaces to make decisions for women and then this person's arguing and she says a woman is biologically female you are never going to be a woman she responded with men aren't women though and that was her first it in the series of events that's what are the spansion in the warning that was one of many tweets that record of providing context and that was actually the second second actually strike is my understanding but like it's the context of I don't I don't have all this way to bring me there like 10 or 12 weeks going back and forth and my understanding is that in the context of all of those who is Miss Jen during a particular person not that she was

► 00:58:07

holding up his mother's day I don't know so you know what your having you having an individual who is debating a high-profile individual in our community and she's expressing her her ideology of versus hers and you have opted to ban one of those ideology as it's within the context of this conversation this is this is what is being debated whether or not someone is in fact a woman when they were born a male I do actually to Rattle feminist someone understand why why people would not agree with the role but that being said it is a rule on our platform and once you're warned about the rule to repeatedly post the same content is also going to be a violation of our rules the rule it's this seems like a good example of an ideologically based rule if if yours if she saying that a man is never a woman though that is not in that context harassment that is a very specific opinion that she has that happens to be biologically accurate now I do

► 00:59:07

you know I don't agree with targeting harassment on anybody and I targeted harassment on trans people work or straight people or whatever I don't I don't agree with it I don't think you should do it it's just it's not something I want to do but in this context what she saying is not just her her expression but it's accurate I think an important point is if I tweeted to you Jo-Jo you are not a hamster that's clearly not a violation of the rules however there are identifies a hamster it wouldn't be specifically begun using insults of animals to avoid getting picked off the platform for breaking the rules for individuals have been suspended now use certain small Woodland creatures in place of slurs so they're not really insulting and it's fine but there are people who consider themselves trans-species not I'm not trying to belittle the trans Community by no means I'm just want to point out that you have a specific rule for one set of people and they're at they're at so they're people who have General body dysphoria you don't have rules on that they're people who actually am

► 01:00:07

headed there on arms you don't have rules on that you have a very specific role set and more importantly in the context of a targeted conversation I can say a whole bunch of things that would never be considered a rule break but that one is which is ideologically driven

► 01:00:24

thank you for the feedback I mean we're we're again always learning and trying to understand different people's perspectives and all I will say is that our intent is not to police ideology or intent is to beliefs behaviors that we view as if uses law enforcement and I hear your point of view and it's something that will definitely discuss with my team even though it wasn't just a lot going against this particular rule but also things that were more ban evasive as well including taking a screenshot of the original tweet reposting it which is against her dark circle that sounds like a reaction it sounded like a protest against your rule I understand you want to make sure I point out she was clearly doing it as an effort to push back on what she viewed as an ideologically driven roll with this isn't the problem is this is a real debate in the LGBT community

► 01:01:24

is a debate where there is a division and there's a division between people that think the trans women are invading biological female spaces and making decisions that don't benefit these biological females cisgender whatever you want to call them this is an actual debate and it's Adam ate a debate amongst Progressive people amongst left-wing people and it's a debate amongst liberals this is a mean I would imagine the vast majority of people in the lbgt community are in fact on the left and this is one example that so you have a protected class that's having an argument with a woman who feels like there's an ideological bent to this conversation that is not not only not accurate but not fair and she feels like it's not fair for biological women the same as Martina Texas with logical conclusion I got to send a screenshot from somebody and it maybe it's fact I think it was real they were having an argument with someone on Twitter and responded with dude, you

► 01:02:24

don't know bob la and they got a suspension a lockout have delete the Tweet because the individual using a cartoon Avatar with the Earth with the family was Sam reported it and said that I'm transgender he's calling you dude and the dude in the end suspension for it so I can understand mistakes happen but when you have a rule that's like that there's colloquial terms that are like man come on don't say that to will it take a photo in front of us and said guys but I included you didn't like for it

► 01:02:57

yeah it's It's Tricky but in this case of Megan Murphy that's her name right that doesn't make any sense to me that seems like she should be allowed to express herself in in this is this is not being she's not being mean by saying a man is never a woman this is a perspective that that is scientifically accurate that's that's part of the problem that horse I think I want to listen to it's a really important thing to go over all the nuances of this particular subject because I think that one in particular highlights this idea of where the problems lie and having a protected class and I think I should be compassionate when you say gender or race when it's not belonging to a particular race or religion white people Ad nauseam

► 01:03:57

it's not a problem it doesn't get doesn't get removed I'm not talking about Maca and talking about abusing and harassing what it mean if you mock a black person in the same way it would be considered targeted racism

► 01:04:10

again it's about targeted harassment on the platform but well let me table what is Target I mean but when you're okay if you have what is racism is is racism only mean there's this Progressive perspective of racism that it's only possible if your phone more powerful class only punching down that's the only racism I don't think that makes any sense I think racism is looking at someone that is from whatever whatever race and deciding that they are in fact less or less worthy or less valuable whatever it is that that takes place across the platform against white people. Not saying why people need to be protected I know it's easier being a white person in America the fact but it's hypocritical to have a policy that only distinguishes you can make fun of white people all day long but if you decide to make fun of Asian folks or you don't fill in the blank that is racist but making fun of white people isn't and it doesn't get remove

► 01:05:10

there are tons of to worry about Sarah Jeong from The New York Times that's all Twitchy made was prior to that and so you didn't force the old is is across-the-board meaning like it doesn't just protect women protect men and women at 4 text always says it doesn't matter and this is how the law set up in the United States right you can't discriminate against white men you can't discriminate against black men like those are the laws right like that's the structure it is it doesn't it doesn't take into consideration someone says something about white people in box white people on Twitter what do you do about that white people in general if you say something about white people in general is not an issue

► 01:06:10

how do you say that's a very different story so this is about if you target that to somebody who belongs to that class and that's reported to us that is a violation of our rules and so in the Sara jeon case a lot we we did see many tweets of that nature that we're focused on people who are white or men and our rules are in this area came into effect in 2015 which was our contact policy and a lot of those tweets were from a time. Where those warrants and offended her defense she was actually supposed to be responding to people that help you don't believe that come on over 3 years and she's tweeting blanket statements about olfactory tweets from after the rules went into effect and we did take action on the tweets from after the rules when it says she's also pretty

► 01:07:09

might have happened eight years ago right 2011 I searched for slurs against white people black people Latinos and I found copious just just tons and tons of them now then I'll go back up most of what I found to go back to Fox about seem like you guys are doing your best but there is a lot and it has white people or black people Jewish people with everybody but this is where right now we have a system that relies on people to report it to us which is a huge burden on people and especially if you happen to be a high-profile person and then you would you would understand that you're not going to sit there and report that we enjoy understand that it's not worth your time you're not going to go through each week by tweet as people respond to you and report it and people tell us this all the time this is where we have to start getting better at identifying when is

► 01:08:09

happening and taking action on it without waiting for somebody to tell us about using an algorithm though do you not miss context mean it seems to me that there's a lot of people that say things in humor you know the board or or slurs within particular communities which is perfectly reasonable yes there is a danger of the algorithms missing context and that's why we we really want to go carefully into this and this is why we scoped down first and foremost to doxxing which is at least first to hit our number one goal of protecting physical safety like making sure that nothing done online will impact someone's physical safety on offline on our platform in in the sky's the second is that there are patterns around doxxing that are much easier to see without having the context there are there are exceptions of course cuz you could Doc's someone's public you know a representative public office phone number and email address and dad were the might catch that not have the

► 01:09:09

text that this is a US representative in this information is already public lights how insanely difficult it is to monitor all of these posts and then what what is a volume like what would we dealing with like how many post you guys get a day hundreds of millions of post a day and how many human beings are manually reviewing any of these things I don't have that that number a lot a lot thousands hundreds of thousands how many employees do guys have to stop and think about that four thousand people that are monitoring hundreds of millions and points and we have a vivid we have a small team who's monitoring tweets and some of them are employed by us some of them are contact throughout the world to 4000 poised total 4000 Floyds who are Engineers who are designers or a lawyer or something

► 01:10:09

the reason we don't give a specific deterrence just we need to scale these dynamically right if we see a particular event with an a with a country we might hire a hundred more people on contract to deal with it where they may not be full-time and in in with us the entire time so as we can report it goes into a Q and those are ranked by severity and then we have people who look at our rules and look at the look at the tweets and like the behavior on the context around it and they have the ability to go down that enforcement Spectrum the video talks about why make PPL login read why it's a violation over tweet and delete it to Temporary suspensions and finally a permanent suspension which is the absolute Last Resort which we ultimately do not want to do we want to make sure that our rules are also guided towards incentivizing more healthy conversation in a more more participation soap

► 01:11:09

the rules you have are not based in US law US law doesn't recognize restrictions on hate speech is considered free speech so if you want as requiring all the crazy things the world you're allowed to on your platform Twitter you're not allowed to so even in that sense alone your rules do have an ideology behind them I don't completely disagree I think you know I don't want harassment but the reason I bring this up is getting a discussion about Democratic health of a Nation so I think it's it can't be disputed this point that Twitter is extremely powerful and influencing elections you know but I'm pretty sure you guys published recently a bunch of tweets from foreign actors that were trying to meddle in elections as a company recognizes that foreign entities are trying to manipulate people using this platform is a few things I want to ask me on this but if would it be important than to just as a certain point Twitter become so powerful in influencing elections and giving access to even the president's tweets that you should allow people to use the platform based under the Norms of US law First Amendment

► 01:12:09

Free Speech right to expression on the platform this is becoming too much of it becoming too powerful and how are elections are are taking place so even if you are saying why hate speech is our people agree with it if at any point one person disagrees they're still in American was right to this unit to access to the public discourse and you've essentially monopolized not completely but for the most part isn't there some responsibility on you to guarantee at a certain extent less regulation happen right like look if you if you recognize foreign governments are manipulating the elections then shouldn't you guarantee the right to an American access platform to be involved in the electoral process

► 01:12:51

I'm not sure I see that the the tie between those things I will address one of your plants which was we're not we're a platform that serves the world so we're a global 75% of the shares of Twitter are outside of the United States we don't apply laws of just one country when were thinking about it we think about how do you have a global standard that can meet the threshold of his many countries as possible because we want all the people in the world to be able to participate and she was a being biased against conservatives in India recently

► 01:13:30

cuz I report on that as well as you held up a sign that said something offencive about the Brahmin yeah so in that sense even in other countries you're accused of the same things that you're being accused of by American conservatives I think of the situations are very very different and I don't think that but the ideologies and play are the same at all cuz I'm aware of the case I'm not sure what you're talking about but we we did have our vice president public policy testify in front of Indian Parliament a couple weeks ago and he was they were really focused on Election integrity and safety and abuse and harassment of women and political figures in the likes my guess is I recognized your company that serves the world but as an American I have a concern that the Democracy I live in the Democratic Republic I'm sorry the Democratic functions are healthy one of the biggest threats is you know Russian in Russia Iran China they're trying to meddle in our elections using your platform and it's effective so much so that you've actually

► 01:14:30

I removed my people you know Covington was apparently started by count bass in Brazil or the Covington scandal with is fake news goes viral was reported by CNN that it was a it was a dummy account they were going to prop it up and they are pushing out this out of context information so they do this they use your platform to do it you've now got a platform that is so powerful in our American discourse that foreign governments are using it as Weapons against us and you taking a stance against the the laws of United States I don't mean like against like a real I mean you have rules that go beyond the scope of the US which will restrict American citizens from being able to participate mean while foreign actors are free to do so so long as they play by your rules so our elections are being threatened by the fact that if there's an American citizen who says I do not believe in your mission during policy and you banned them that person has been removed from public discourse on Twitter but they don't get banned for saying they don't agree with it or not and short specifically violating it by targeting an individual what's a in protest and individual repeatedly

► 01:15:30

has no I refuse to use your pronouns in like Megan Murphy's casing she's Canadian Pacific Lee at a certain level there are going to be American citizens who have been removed from this public discourse which has become so absurdly powerful 4 numbers weaponize it because you have different rules than the American country has

► 01:15:48

just to be clear my understanding and I'm not an expert on all the platforms that foreign governments use multiple multiple different ways to interfere in elections is not limited to our platform nor is it limited to social media but the president does not matter if the White House I think it's fair to point out the media coverage of his Twitter account is insane and they run a new stories every time he tweets that sounds so undeniable I'm just pointing out the door number of different avenues for this and individuals have choices and how they use the platform that if Twitter refuses to acknowledge this problem you are facing regulation I don't I don't know if you care about that but at a certain point which which problem if if you're going to restrict American citizens from participating up platform or even the president speaks and and it's essential you have a private privately-owned public space if I could use an analogy that would be most apt and you've sent rules that are not recognized by the US in fact when

► 01:16:48

came to a supreme court hearing is hate speech is not a violation it's actually protected free speech so there's an actual odds so there might be someone who says I refuse to live by any other means than what the Supreme Court has that down that means I have a right to hate speech you will be on them that means our platform is so powerful it's it's being used to manipulate elections and you have rules that are not recognized by the government to remove American citizens from that discourse it was a private platform you become too powerful to not be regulated if you refuse to allow people free speech

► 01:17:19

I'm trying to pick a part on the connection I think so

► 01:17:26

yes we we do have an issue with foreign entities and misinformation and in this is a extremely complicated issue which were just beginning to understand and grasp and and take action on I don't think that issue is solved purely by not being more aggressive on something else that is taking people off the platform entirely as well which is abuse and harassment it's a cost-benefit analysis ultimately in our rules are designed again and no they don't always manifests this way in the outcomes but in terms of what we're trying to drive is opportunity for every single person to be able to speak freely on the platform and that's absolutely not true

► 01:18:16

you were going to light a light switch so free speech is not on your platform I should speak to label everyone

► 01:18:24

they create the opportunity for everyone to speak on our service the recognition that we're taking action on is that when some people encounter a particular conduct that we see them wanting to remove themselves from the platform completely which goes against the principle of enabling everyone to speaker giving people the opportunity to speak the rules are focused on the the opportunities presented and we have particular outcomes to make sure that those opportunities are a source was just to explain the the power that your platform Hult Center when antifa shows up to Berkeley and Bash is a guy with a bike lock that is suppressing his speech right that's a factor physical violence however when a default links hands and block the door so that no one can go to an event that is also legally allowed right so what you're saying is that if someone is engaging in Behavior such as going on Twitter and shouting

► 01:19:24

someone down relentlessly that's something external what happens in the world under the US government I am allowed to scream very close to you and not let you speak in public but I'm sure you don't allow that so there's a dramatic difference between what Twitter thinks is okay and what the US government thinks is okay our democracy functions and 1/2 Twitter functions the issue 1 pointing out is that we know Twitter is becoming extremely important and how are public discourse is occurring how are cultural culture is developing and who gets elected so if you have rules that are based on a global policy that means American citizens were biting by all of the laws of our country are being restricted from engaging in public discourse because you've monopolized it out though because these foreign governments are restricted by the same rules so they violate those same rules they will be they will be removed so they can participate in the discourse even if they are just trying to manipulate our elections on the other hand if the people that are on the platform play by those rules they can also counteract on

► 01:20:24

their ideology goes in line with us law know it legally allowed as opposed to what you allow so foreign governments can can absolutely keep making new accounts and keep bothering and keep manipulating they can even post think I'll go viral and I get banned and not care but a private American citizen can take here's my opinion I refuse to back down so we can see that at a certain point you have a Twitter is slowly gaining in my opinion too much control from your personal ideology based on what you've research what you think is right over American discourse if you if Twitter and as God as my opinion I'm not alone maker but I would have to assume if Twitter refuses to say in the United States you are allowed to say what is legally acceptable. Then lawmakers only choice will be to enforce regulations on your company actually quite a bit of time talking to lawmakers as part of my role of public policy spend a lot of time in DC on Wednesday the Jack and I have both spent a lot of time in DC

► 01:21:24

I think from the perspective of lawmakers they across the Spectrum are also in favor of policing abuse and harassment online and bullying online those are things that people care about because they affect their children if they affect their communities and they affect individuals and so I don't think that and as a private American Business we can have different standards than what an American government-owned corporation American government would have to Institute those are two different things Americans and I understand your point about the influence and I'm not denying that certainly Twitter is an influential platform but like anything whether it's the American law or the rules of Twitter are the rules of Facebook or world of any platform There are rules and those rules have to be followed so does your choice whether to follow those rules and to continue to participate in a Civic dialogue choice to not do that absolutely you've monopolized public discourse

► 01:22:24

you save my way or the highway we are facing many different avenues for people to continue to have a voice there many different platforms that offer that we are a largely influential and I'm not trying to take away from that and we're a very important once you don't need to be the most important it's just that you are extremely important and that's and it's a compliment Twitter has become extremely powerful but at a certain point you should not have the right to control what people are allowed to say no private or up look I'm a social liberal I think we should regulate you guys because you are unelected officials running your system the way you see fit against the wishes of a Democratic Republic and they're people who disagree with you are being exercised from public discourse because of your ideology that terrifies me and we can take it once that's over 32 are you suggesting that we don't have any policies around abusing harassment on the platform

► 01:23:15

I'm trying to understand what what it is you're saying cuz I'm not I'm not sure I'm following you do you you don't think we have any rules about abusing harassment so even that's the threats that you received that you would have a chance but you mentioned the number of threats that you receive in your quite frustrated that we hadn't taken action on you think we shouldn't have walls that I'm frustrated because of the hypocrisy when I when I see I see the flow of One Direction and then what I see are Republican politicians with my pain you're just too ignorant to understand what the hell's going on around them and I see people burning signs that say free speech I see you openly saying we recognize the power of our platform and we are not going to go bye-bye American Norms I see the manipulation of Twitter for in violation of our elections I see Democratic operatives in Alabama waging a false flag campaign using fake Russian accounts and then and then the guy who runs that company has not been banned from your platform even after it's been written by the New York Times he was doing this so we know that not only are people manipulating your platform you have rules that remove honest and

► 01:24:15

citizens with bad opinions who have a right to engage in public discourse and it's like you recognize it but you like having the power on I'm not quite sure at what point should not have any rules about abuse and harassment or any sort of hate speech on the platform that that's your position extremely productive maybe too simplistic the point I'm trying to make his point you're trying to make your at your ass he has to comply with the US law that would criminalize potential speech and put people in jail for it and you're asking us to enforce those those while I mean if you incite death you will get a crime you can go you can go to jail for that so at the very least you could you like when you and your kids on your platform who commits a crime you don't mind them I say was really weird I know you have people on your platform was a bad naughty word that you do bantu myself that's really weird I mean I've seen people get banned for 4 to bring an end to you I understand what they're trying to do in a tweet letters at your jack but they get suspended for in the get a threat you know like you can't let's let's talk about learning to code

► 01:25:15

what do you mean by that there are people who know that they can't win a single letter on the next person knows what letter they need to tweet you say I'm saying so you'll see you know one user will say and the next US Open is the next user yes and so they get suspended for doing so these are these are the people who are trying to push the buttons on the rules right they get suspended for the absolutely so because I hadn't seen the thing I think I think your team understand what they're doing however you can really dangerous territory of someone someone accidentally put an end and you assume they're trying to engage in a Craftsman Campaign which is why I said let's talk about learn to code for we do we do look at coordination of it those accounts or we're not. I don't know about direct messages but none on realtor we don't retract when we don't read them unless someone reports a direct message to us that they have received until you read their direct message that I sent to you so if if you have a direct messaging someone says

► 01:26:15

terrible and then like you receive a death threat in your report that to us then we would read it cuz you've reported it to us have access to direct messages other than that only in the context again of reviewing reports that we are not accessible not to my knowledge I don't know what you mean like we're not accessible is it possible that someone could go into Tim's direct messages and just read his direct messages I don't think so Tim Wright's an end and I ride and I and Jamie Wright 2G can you go into our direct messages and say hey let's fuck with Jack and will we're going to write this stuff out and we're going to do it and what's would see if they did they ban us you can't read that I don't think so I told us the case I don't want you know if there was a concerted effort I think what he's saying is like if we if we do see those train of replies and that is that is coordination you know what people are doing well I think Beyond to the end

► 01:27:15

the first person to put the letter you can prove he did it but everybody else he kind of camera but I don't think we would have been sent numerous screenshot some people I've seen people actually tweet and then I've seen that we follow right after 1 year unless someone decently high-profile a big YouTuber put in an end at you and then got like a 12-hour suspension learn-to-code right and why are people being suspended for tweeting hashtag learn-to-code we did some research on those I guess about a month ago or so we're a number of journalists were receiving a variety of tweets some containing learn-to-code some containing a bunch of other coded language that was wishes a farm is worth thousands and thousands of tweets being directed at a handful of journalists and we did some research and what we found

► 01:28:15

was the number of the accounts that were engaging in this Behavior which is tweeting at the journalist with this either learn to code or things like day of the rope and other coded language were actually I'm ban evasion accounts that means accounts I didn't friend previously suspended and we also learned that there was a targeted campaign being organized off our platform to abusing her ass these journalists that's not true

► 01:28:40

MCC here's the thing an activist who works for NBC wrote that story and then Lobby do you issue an official statement and then even the editor-in-chief of the Daily Caller got a suspension for tweeting learn to code of the day at The Daily Show I am never talk to anybody from NBC about this issue so I'm no so they were poured it don't misrepresent me they were poured it is a narrative goes far and wide are most your circles and all of a sudden you're seeing a high-profile conservative Twitter a joke getting suspensions again some of these tweets actually contained death threats which is a parm other coded language that we've seen to mean death to journalist so it wasn't about just to learn to code it was about the contacts that we were single and chief of the Daily Caller was suspended for tweeting nothing but hashtag learn to code

► 01:29:30

Tim can I can I finish my last thing we were looking at that context and what was happening is there were journalists receiving hundreds of tweets some had death threats them had which is a farm so I'm just learn to code and in a particular contacts we made a decision we consider this the type of behavior but dogpiling which is when all is an individual's are getting tons and tons of tweets at them they feel very abused and harassed on the platform as a super confusing for people don't know the context of the learn to code thing is in response to people saying that people that are losing their jobs like coal miners and truck drivers and things like that could learn to code this was it was almost like in jest initially or if it wasn't ingest initially was so poorly thought-out as a suggestion that people started mocking it right up correct other than the correct the first stories that came out we're simply like can minors learn Dakota and the hashtag learn to code is just a meme it's not even though you will see more conservative

► 01:30:30

look how stupid the idea of taking a person is uneducated as in their 50s who should learn some new form of vocation and then someone says learn to code and so then other people when they're losing their job when something's happening people would write learn to code because it's a mean well not even necessarily I would I would just characterize learn to code as a meme that represents the elitism of modern journalists and how they target certain communities with disdain are people who have been suspended for tweeting something like I'm not too happy with how you know by Speaker for the story hashtag learn-to-code right making representation of these people are snooty Elites who live in Ivory Towers but but but again you know what this is a meme that has nothing to do with harassment but you know what some people might be harassing somebody might we did why would we expect to see even still today I'm still getting messages from people to screenshot saying I've been suspended for using a hashtag and the editor-in-chief of the Daily Caller right heat heat heat heat he took he quote tweeted a video from The Daily Show

► 01:31:30

with hashtag learn to code and it got a suspension for it so why why why learn to code why is that alone so egregious I know it was again a specific set of issues that we were seeing targeting a very specific set of journalist and it wasn't just to learn to code it was a couple of things going on a lot of the accounts tweeting learn to crawl under Barbed animators which means that seriously been suspended a lot of the accounts had other language in them are of tweet that other language like Dave the brick day of the Rope oven-ready these are all coated meanings for violence against people and so people who are receiving this or receiving hundreds of these and what appear to us to be a coordinated harassment campaign and so we were trying to understand the context of what was going on and take action on then again I don't know Joe if you've ever been the target of a dog piling event on Twitter but it is not particularly fun when thousands

► 01:32:30

people are hundreds of people are tweeting at you and saying things and that's can be viewed as a form of harassment it's not about the individual tweet it is about the volume of things that are being directed I don't understand and throw in a particular case we made the judgement call and it is a judgment call to take down the tweets that were responding directly to these journalists that were saying learn-to-code even if they didn't have a wish of harm specifically attached them because of what we've you to coordinated attempt to harass them and again like I was saying some of the other signals and coded language and we were worried that learn-to-code was taking on a different meaning

► 01:33:14

so but in and of itself though it still seems like there's alternative meanings to learn to code it still could be used as Tim was saying to Makkah live you know Elite Studio teacher to play angry with you about the context of what was happening in that situation and all those other things I think in a very different situation we would not take action on that but does not seem like you're you're throwing a blanket over a very small issue and has learned to code in itself is very small the blanket is cast Over racism the blankets cast over this all all the other horrible things that are attached to it but the horrible things that are attached to what the real issue this learn-to-code thing is kind of a legitimate protest and people saying that these minor should learn to code that's kind of preposterous the first articles weren't mean it was just kind of identified you have these journalists were so far removed from Middle America that they think you can take a 50 year old man who's never

► 01:34:14

the computer before and put them in a run out as it was a meme the hashtag of the idea of learn-to-code condenses this idea and it's easy to communicate especially when you leave 22 characters that there is a class of individuals country I think you mentioned was a Sam Harris at the left vs liberal journalist only follow each other in the run-up to the 2016 elections and so I mean I still believe that to be true I'd work in these offices it has changed in the visualization and now there is a lot more cross-pollination but we do what we saw his folks who are putting in the left on on Spectrum mainly followed folks on the left and folks on right in and maintain them

► 01:35:04

so here's what ends up happening in this is one of the big problems that people have with this store particular you particularly you have a left-wing activists who works for NBC News I'm not accusing you of having read the article he right he spends like a day lobbying to put us and guide you have to do this yet to make these changes the next day he writes a story saying that 4chan is organizing these these harassment campaigns and death threats and well 4chan was doing threads about it you can't accuse Fortune said we were talking about the right it was talking about it too as what's Twitter so then the next day he publishes article now he's getting threats and then Twitter is a statement saying we will take action and to make matters worse when John Levine a writer for the rap got a statement from one of your spokespeople saying yes we are Banning people hurt first thing you learn to code a bunch of journalists came out and then lied I know idea why sign is not yours is fake news then second statement published by Twitter saying it's part of a harassment campaign and so then the mainstream narrative becomes over there only Banning people

► 01:36:04

Craftsman campaign but you literally see legitimate high-profile individuals getting suspensions for joining another joke there for sure probably in the steaks in there I don't think that any of us are claiming that we got that hundred percent right and probably our team having a lack of contacts into actually what's happening as well end and we would fully admit we probably were way too aggressive when we first saw this is what I made mistakes then you have to do Asians like this where you can see you know that this journalist I'm not going to name him but he routinely has very like left-wing he was over at least that's what are chords but intersectional dogmatic points of view right so this is intersectional feminism is considered like a small ideology it people referred to as groups as a regressive left Organa to Terry and left is it basically people who hold of you is that a person is judged based on the color of their skin instead of the content of their character so you have the right wing version which is like you're right but left-wing version which is like intersectional feminism

► 01:37:04

is is is out typically referred to so you'll see people say things like you know when it went typically when they were icon white men or when they say like white feminism desert desert signals that they hold these particular views of so what ends up happening is if a journalist who clearly hold these views on you want to call me journalist he writes extremely biased and out of context story Twitter takes action in response seemingly a response then we can look what happens with Oliver Darcy at CNN he says you know the people at CPAC are the conservatives are gullible eating red meat from Drifters among other things disparaging comments about the right and he's the one who's primarily advocating for the removal of certain individuals who you been removed and then when Kathy Griffin calls for doxxing that's fine when this guy calls for the death of these kids he gets it gets it a slap on the wrist and I looked I understand the context matters what grains of sand make a heat and eventually have all of these stories piling up and people are asking me why only Flows In One Direction imagine that calling for the death three times of any individual was a bannable offense even without a warning just get rid of them

► 01:38:04

but it didn't happen right we see we see these you know people say men and women though and they get a suspension we see people say the editor-in-chief of the Daily Caller may be the best example hashtag learn-to-code quoting The Daily Show me to get the suspension is threatening death and inciting death it suspension to it if it feels like it's only going in One Direction explain more clearly one we're taking action and why and start looking into any mistakes we may have made an investor to go situation would you guys agree that intact I think we can all agree this I would hope you agree Tech tends to lean left

► 01:38:41

architect companies Facebook Twitter Google I would be willing to bet that a conservative running social network would not have hate speech policy I mean you look at Gap and you look at mines and mine's not even right they're not right wing at all they just they just aren't really support free speech and I don't think gab is necessarily I don't think the owner is necessary right-wing either I don't know much about him I think he's like a Libertarian I I don't want to I don't want to fight either I don't know enough I know that there when you read what they write their just staunchly committed to free speech but they know stop dachshund Dibble Dibble do things to stop targeted harassment and Dachshund and things along those lines sometimes slowly but the point is is that I think a lot of people that are on the right feel disenfranchised by these platforms they use on a daily basis I don't know what the percentage are the percentages are in terms

► 01:39:41

the number of people that are conservative these Twitter versus the number of people that are liberal but I would imagine it's probably pretty close isn't it

► 01:39:49

I don't know numbers I don't know because we don't ask people whether whether it's Google or Twitter or Facebook any of these platforms YouTube for sure powerful leaning towards the left

► 01:40:11

when we all agree to that we don't ask her employees but my guess is that many employees at a companies are probably liberal I just really fast but I also use your mention are in exactly the same region as well you know we do have the challenge of some Mana cultural thinking

► 01:40:36

Wii and Wii U know I have said publicly that you know yes we will have more of a liberal bias within our company said this to CNN but that doesn't mean that we put that in our rules because what I'm getting at is that at some point in time things have to get down to a human being looking and reviewing a cases and if you guys are so left wing in your your your staff and the area that you live in and all these things you things are almost naturally going to lean low

► 01:41:12

if it's not fair to say if if we were purely looking at the content but a lot of this agent work is based on the behavior is all the things that we've been discussing in terms of the context of the actual content itself I got them with the rules are gender and policy right so your rules do reflect your your bubble ride go to Middle letting you know go to Middle America and go hang out at conservative Town they're not going to agree with you your rules are based on your bubble in San Francisco or whatever from Middle America on from St Louis Missouri and I I hear the point I definitely hear the point in terms of like us putting this rule 4th but we have to balance it with the fact that people are being driven away from our platform I hear you and they may not disagree that they may not agree with me on that my folks from Missouri but I think they would see some valid argument and what we're trying to do two again increasing opportunity for as many people as possible to talk that's that's it it's not driving the outside of your speaking to you stop

► 01:42:08

what what community is and isn't deserving of protection are conservatives not deserving of protection for their opinions on individuals and increasing the absolute number of people who have opportunity to speak on the pot from the first place so then do you need a rule for body dysphoria do you need a rule for other kin right that you said I'm asking you you you have a surprise to us in this came from a call and research and there are there's there's disagreement as to whether this is the right how come you're not in this is the right policy and yes are bias does influence looking in his Direction and are biased has take our biases influence us putting a rule like this in place but it is with the understanding of creating as much opportunity as possible for as many people speak based on the actual data that we see of people leaving the platform because of experience is it have why did you research stop there

► 01:43:04

it hasn't stopped sweet we are our rules aren't set and in something that just stops and doesn't involve we're going to constantly question we're going to constant get feedback from people on every end of the spectrum of any particular issue and make changes according to your credit stop and to your credit I really do appreciate that and the fact that you're very open about that you have made mistakes and that you're continuing to learn and grow in their company is reviewing these things and try to figure out which way to go and I think we all need to pay attention to the fact that this is a completely new road this road did not exist 15 years ago there was nothing there that is a tremendous responsibility for any kind of any company any group of human beings to be in control of public discourse on a scale unprecedented in human history and that's what we're dealing with this is not a small thing and I know people that have been banned to them this is this is a matter of ideology this is matter this is matter that there's a lot of debating going on here in this one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on because

► 01:44:04

cuz you know so much about so many of these cases and so much that cuz you are journal and you're very aware of the implications and all the problems that have been that maybe have slipped through my fingers so I do want to make one thing really clear though I have a tremendous amount of respect and trust for you and you said you wanted to solve this problem simply because you're sitting here right now and these other companies aren't right. Jackie went on Sam Harris you are on. Get with Gad sad and that says to me a good faith effort to try and figure out how to do things right and like so as much as I apologize for getting kind of angry and then being emotional because we also haven't been great at

► 01:44:43

explaining our time and there's a there's a few things going on one as Joe indicated

► 01:44:51

centralized Global policy at scale is almost impossible and and we realize has different Services have different answers this Reddit has a community baseball see where each topic each subreddit has its own policy in and you know there's there's some benefit to that so that's problem number one we know that this very binary off or on platform is it right and it doesn't scale and It ultimately goes against our key initiative of wanting to promote more healthier conversation I just don't think that's what you're doing I am in a I hear you I hear you but like so we're not we're not we're not done we're not finished with our work and we need to the reason I'm going on all these podcasts and having these conversations and I do believe it just getting out there more often as well because we don't see enough friend here enough for her

► 01:45:44

we need to have this conversation so we can learn we can we can get the feedback and also pay attention to where the technology is going before the podcast we talked a little bit about and I talked about it on this our previous podcast and also that technology today is enabling content to live forever in a way that was not possible before you can say that everything on the internet lives forever but that's not generally not true because any host or any kind of connection can take it down the blockchain changes all that it can actually exist forever permanently without anyone being able to touch with government company individual and that is a reality that we need to pay attention to and really understand our value in I believe a lot of our Value Inn in the future not today again we have a ton don't we have a ton of work is to take a strong stance of like we are going to be a company that given this entire Corpus of conversation and content within the world we're going to work to promote healthy public conversation

► 01:46:44

what we want that's what we're going to do and if you disagree with it

► 01:46:48

you should be able to turn it off and buy you should be able to access anything that you want as you would with you and I put those are technologies that are just in the formative stages and presenting New Opportunities companies like ours in and there's a ton of challenges with them in a ton of things that we've discussed over the past hour that it doesn't solve and maybe exacerbates especially around things like election interference interference and some of the regulatory concerned that you're bringing it is a few issues right your definition of what is or isn't healthy right yes yes and we want that to be public we want that we're going we we have four indicators right now that we're working on with an external lab we want other labs to we want to give it up open sores make sure that people can comment on it if people can help us to find it we'll use that interpretation on our own out rhythms and then push it but that has to be open that has to be transparent are we there today at solutely not we're not there this this course of action to me looks like a Fahrenheit

► 01:47:48

if you want future where everything is so expensive everything must be restricted I see that's the path I see that you're on you won't have a healthy conversation you want to maximize the amount of people that means you got to cut off all the tall grass and level everything out so if if if if you decided that this one room is being forced because our lives are offencive can I explain what would help at least means to us when we talked a little bit about this on the previous podcast but we we we have four indicators that were trying to Define and try to understand if there's actually something there one is shared attention is a conversation generally shared around the same objects or is it different so like as we're having conversation the four of us are having conversation are we all focused on the same thing or is Joanna's phone what you were or they are like whatever is going on because more shared attention will will lead to help your conversation number two is shared reality not whether something is factual but are we sharing

► 01:48:48

the same facts is the earth round is the world flat

► 01:48:52

so we are yes we can tell what facts are we sharing and what facts are we not showing what percentage of the conversation so that's that's a second and third is receptivity are the participants receptive to debate and to Civility and to expressing their opinion and even if it is something that might be hurtful or people receptive to at least look at it and be empathetic and and look at what's behind that week this is the one we have the most measurement around today we can determine and predict when someone might walk away from a Twitter conversation because they feel it's toxic so and we see that we see that in our data right so you and there's some conversations that you get into in you and you you know persist and then the finally is variety of perspective are we are we actually seeing the full spectrum of any topic that's being talked about and in these are not meant to be taken as individual parts

► 01:49:52

but in unison how they play together and we've written he's out we haven't gotten far enough and actually defining what they look like and what they mean and we certainly haven't gotten good enough at understanding when we deploy a solution like being able to follow a hashtag does that impact variety of perspectives to the positive does it impact shared reality to the negative one. So this is how we were thinking about it and as we think more about that that influences our product influences our enforcement and influences our policies, what you're describing sounds wildly different to what you want to get with those those metrics so I can confuse me then when you talk about someone like Meghan Murphy who sure she followed your rules but in the context of a conversation you know you recognize people will sometimes get hit with each other if you know how you do it is a healthy conversation when no one is being negative what if what if people are yelling at each other and being mean and insulting or Miss gun during them I think it's a question

► 01:50:52

of what threshold you allowing and the more control we can give people to vary the Spectrum on what they want to see that feels right to me I mean Joe and in your your Alex podcast did exactly this thing you're hosting a conversation you had both of your guests who started talking over each other you pause a conversation you said let's not get combat if someone said I'm not being combative you said you're all talking over each other and and there's a dynamic that the conversation then ship to do that got to some deeper points right could have just said let that happen and and and let it go and and that's fine too it's it's it's up to who is viewing and experiencing that conversation and I agree with you it is completely for a from where we are today we not only have we had to address a lot of these issues that we're talking about at this table but we've also

► 01:51:52

had to turn the company around from a business standpoint we'd have we've had to fix Oliver infrastructure that's over 10 years old and we had to go through to layoffs because the company was too large so we we have to prioritize our efforts and I don't know any other way to do this then be really specific about our intentions and our aspirations and and the intent in the why behind our actions and not everyone's going to agree with it in the in the particular moment before I make my next statement just real quick at it it's a hard place how do you get to a point where you can't have that open source crypto in a blockchain technology that allows free open speech at the same time the technology exists Twitter has been replicated numerous times and different ways for instance what's disconcerting to me is you know and maybe you ever check on this which is why you've taken the decision to have a butt when you ban someone because they said me no bad opinions misgendering

► 01:52:52

well they're not going to go away they're going to try and find any way they can speak so it would effectively happens is your you're taking all of these people from a from a wide range of the most to the president as you murderers all the way to pot smokers and you put in the same room with each other and you're saying you're not welcome here while what happens when you take someone who smokes pot and put in prison with a bunch of gang Bangerz a murderer's they fall into that but I totally get the point of hyper aware of our actions sending more more things into the darkness is something that I want to discuss is really important in this vein to thinking what about roads to Redemption what about someone like Meghan Murphy what about someone anyone Alex Jones Milo is it is it can we find a path for people to get back to the platform for good or for bad like it or not there is one video platform the people give a shit about knots YouTube you get kicked off of YouTube you're doomed and that's just reality you can go then me it was wonderful there's a lot of great video platforms out there they have

► 01:53:52

fucking tiny fraction of the views at YouTube. That's just reality the same thing to be said for Twitter whether or not other platforms exist is that's inconsequential the vast majority of people are on Twitter the vast majority of people that are making a post about the news in and breaking information they do it on Twitter what can be set up and have you guys giving consideration to some sort of a path to Redemption there's there's Redemption and there's Rehabilitation you know we we haven't done a great job at having a cohesive stance on Rehabilitation and Redemption we have it in part so the the whole focused behind the temporary suspension is to at least give people pause and think about why

► 01:54:46

they violated why and how they violated our particular rules sign up for when they came into our terms of service right whether you agree with him or not this is the agreement that we have with people you know I was just thinking this I'm sorry to interrupt you but it would be kind of hilarious if you guys had an option like a mode of Twitter an angry mode like fuck I'm angry right now so I'm going to type some things and it says hey dude why don't you just think about this we going to hold it for you in the queue and told you that people do that people do that in their graphs but and I'm sure they do I'm sure they do if you had an angry mode I noticed you guys using a lot of curse words and you say a lot of bad things were going to put you in angry mode that will take about this so you have to make several clicks if you want to post this and and there is research has suggested people expressing not actually tends to minimize more violent physical for sure.

► 01:55:46

go to sleep wake up in the morning like some say something nice you know that's how I wind up it interacting with these people but what what do you think can be done for people like let's say Megan Murphy cuz she seems one of the it's as easy to see her perspective as any what would you think could be done for her I think I think you're right I think that I would love to get to a point where we think of us suspensions is temporary and she's been for love but we have every capability of changing that and that's something that I want my team to focus on is thinking about as Jack said not just coming back after some time down. But also like what more can and should we be doing within the product itself early on to educate people about the loss of one of the things that we're working on is a very very simplified version of the Twitter rules that's two pages not 20 I've made sure that my lawyers don't write it and it's written in explaining

► 01:56:46

we can we try to put examples in there and like really taking the time to educate people and I got people aren't always going to agree with those rules and we have to address that too but at least simplifying it and educating people so that they don't even get to that stage but once they do understanding that there are going to be different contacts in people's lives different times they're going to say and do things that they may not agree with and they don't deserve to be permanently suspended forever from a platform like Twitter. So how do you get to it and you identifying kind of some of the principles by which we would want to think about your time bounding suspension so it's work we have to do it and we're going to figure it out but I'm not going to tell you it's coming out right away but it's it's on a road map it's something we want to do

► 01:57:36

why don't you set up a jury system when someone report something instead of you having to worry about it there would be no accusation of bias if 100,000 users are randomly selected to determine everything we've learned so Periscope has a Content moderation jury so we flag based on the machine learning algorithms and in some cases reports particular replies we send them to a small Juria folks to ask is this against or room service or is this something that you believe should be in the shower not even though it's good it has some flaws I have some some gaming aspects to it as well but like we do have a lot of experiments that we're testing and like we want to build confidence in like it's actually driving outcomes that we

► 01:58:36

are are useful and Periscope is a good playground for us I didn't know cross many retards I think ultimately one of the greater philosophical challenges is that you are a massively powerful Corporation you have international investors I believe is a Saudi Prince owns what's 6% of Twitter so when I is that true I have influence on depending on what was influence right so I'm not going to say that the Saudi prince who invested in Twitter wait around but a certain point plan on doing that to you right this is a billion dollars I think into Twitter Twitter has influence on our elections foreign governments for government actors have steak and Twitter it worries me then when you base your rules on your personal decisions on an unelected group of people

► 01:59:32

you have such tremendous power in this Monopoly on public discourse near-monopoly like he was saying as you some platforms is Twitter has no real competition so I just have to hope and trust you have the best interest at heart but you at the end of the day it's it's it's authoritarian no one shows you to be in charge of this I understand you might send you discovered with her but here I am looking at you know both of you have this tremendous power over whether or not someone can get elected you can choose to ban someone and tell me all day and night you have a reason for doing it I just have to trust you that's terrifying there's no proof there's no proof Alex Jones in any of these things other than the things he's posted right understand that that's what I was on the phone with Alex is texting me saying that he'd never did anything to endanger any child and that he was disputing what people are saying about a video of a child getting harmed and so do we just trust an unelected I mean stream extremely wealthy individuals Saudi princes you know is a publicly traded company who knows where the infant is coming from your rules are blessed. Based on a global policy and I'm sitting here watching wow these people who are never chosen in the position have too much power over my

► 02:00:32

my puppy my politics I think that's why it's so important that we take the time to build transparency and to what we're doing and that's part of what we're trying to do is not just in being here and talking to you guys but also building it into the product itself and one of the things that I really loved about a new product launch what we've done is to disable any sort of ranking in the home timeline if you want and you don't have to see her around more than the play anymore these are the kinds of things that were thinking about how do we give power back to the people using our service so that they can see what they want to see and I can participate the way they want to participate in this is a long-term and I get no we're not there yet but this is how we thinking about it and you can imagine where that goes I mean in interest one switch and turning all the our thumbs off but what what did I do what is that look like so these are the conversations were having in the company what does if you could ideas hurt or bad ideas we we haven't determined that just yet but we we we definitely

► 02:01:28

look up I definitely understand the mistrust that people have in our company in myself and the corporate structure and all the variables that are associated with it including who chooses to buy on the public market who chooses not to write I get all of it and I grew up on the internet I'm a Believer in the internet principles and I want to do everything in my power to make sure that we are consistent with those ideals at the same time I want to make sure that every single person and do everything in my power has the opportunity to participate in Saudi Arabia right do you enforce the same hate speech rules in Saudi Arabia

► 02:02:09

are our rules are global wind force them against everyone so even in countries where it's criminal to be LGBT you will still ban someone

► 02:02:17

for for saying something disparaging to or cycling the tattooed up to that fact

► 02:02:23

what what's a Saudi Arabia send someone to put to death for I want to call Target specifically called Iran cuz I believe that's the big Focus right now is Trump Administration Iran is my understanding it still punishable by death I could be wrong but it is Criminal if someone then directly targets one of these individuals will you banned them I mean you guys function in Iran cuz I think we're Glock 10mm Michelle Malkin recently got really angry because she received notice that she violated blasphemy laws in Pakistan right so you do follow some walls in some countries but it's not If we're honest and it's very clearly a different culture they don't agree with your rules we do have a per-country take down meaning the concept might be non visible within my country but visible throughout the rest of the world but we actually are very very transparent about this so we publish your transparency report every 6 months but details every single request that we get from every government around the world and the content

► 02:03:23

they asked us to remove and we post that to an independent third-party site so you could go right now and look and see every single request that comes in the Pakistani government and what contents are trying to remove from Pakistan and I've seen a lot of conservatives get angry about this and it's kind of confusing confusing I'm like that's a really good thing I would want to know if Pakistan wanted to kill me where the anger blasphemy laws posting pictures of Muhammad so it's a time are they angry about your transparency report perception that you sent that notice is like a threat against them for violating blasphemy laws whereas it's very clearly just letting you know a government is taking action against you which it's saying that the government has restricted access to that content in that country and the reason we tell users or tell people that that's happened because a lot of them may want to file their own suit against the government or a lot of them may be in danger if they happen to be under that particular government's jurisdiction and they may want to take action to protect themselves if they know that the government is looking at the content in their account so we don't always know

► 02:04:23

we don't we send the notice to everybody we don't always know where you are or what country you live in and so we just sent that notice as like to try to be as transparent as possible your policies support a community but there may be laws in a certain country that does not support that comedian find a criminal that's how your actions are now directly opposed to the culture of another name of the country is that if you enforce your values which are the universal perceivably not even the majority of the country if you're you know consider yourself more liberal-leaning in your half of the United States but you're enforcing those rules on the rest of the world that use the service it's sort of forcing other cultures to adhere to yours

► 02:05:04

I just have a lot of a lot of our rules are based in more the UN declaration than just purely us doesn't the UN declaration guarantee the right of all people through any medium to express their opinion it does that also has it also has can it also has conditions around particular speech inciting violence and some of the some of the aspects that we speak to as well as in the Covenant whether it's religion race gender sexual orientations are all also protected under the UN Covenant to protect human rights

► 02:05:38

unpause your thing as a bunch of other issues having to do with bias and censorship and I feel like we've kind of like beating that worse around asleep but I think that horse is good to beat and muscle it's also good to address why why why did exist in the first place and I really don't want to say this again I really appreciate the fact that you guys are so open and that you're willing to come on here and talk about this cuz you don't have to this is your decision and especially you jack after we had that first conversation in the the blowback was so hard you wanted to come and clarify this is been I think this is so important to the people of a true understanding of what your intentions are versus what perceptions are thank you for hosting this I think it's also important that

► 02:06:38

the company is not just me that have people in the company who are really good at this and are making some really tough decisions and having tough conversations and and getting pushed back and getting feedback and they have

► 02:06:53

the best intentions and let's get back into the meat of things to get to be in that horse I don't know if you have any date on why Jacob Wohl was recently banned do you have that I believe who is Jacob Wohl he's a conservative personality but he's very very controversial for like fake news or something I don't know too much about him so I don't want to accuse me of things I don't know who he is but he was he was in something we tried accusing molar of like sexual assaults and it turned out to be like if just completely fake ridiculous USA Today article where he admitted that he was going to eat had used tactics in the past to influence the election and he will continue to do so using all of his generals when we saw that report our team looked at his account we noticed there were multiple accounts tied to his account so fake accounts that he created that were discussing political issues and pretending to be other people

► 02:07:53

we would have phone numbers linking accounts together or email addresses and some cases IP addresses other types of metadata that are associated with account so we can link those accounts together and multiple accounts in and of itself is not on a violation of our rules can some people have their you know when you are deliberately pretending to be someone else and manipulating a conversation about what you and those are exactly the second the types of things that we saw the Russians do for example in the 2016 election so it was that Playbook and that type of activity that we saw about Jacob Wohl and that's why his account for suspended did you investigate Jonathan Morgan I don't know who that is

► 02:08:35

that's not the important Russian why I don't I don't know who that is but that's that's ice it might be that someone put her investigated him I personally don't know who that I think is really important get to is you should know who he is he's more important than Jacob wallets but for some reason you know about this conservative guy not the Democrat who helped metal in the Alabama election low price but it's about grains of sand making it even the flow of a Direction Where We can see Jacob Wohl has said he's done that so you're like we're going in basket weave and him it was recently reported and covered by numerous Outlets that a group called new knowledge was meddling in the Alabama election by creating fake Russian accounts to manipulate National media into believing that Roy Moore's pop up by the Russians Facebook banned him as well as for other people but Twitter didn't have you still active family accounts that were engaged in the behavior I do remember send I do remember sending this division or two

► 02:09:35

tribute through email addresses and phone numbers his direct connection to the accounts that were created to manipulate the election if we're not able to tie that direct connection on our platform or law enforcement doesn't give us information to tie attribution we won't take action and it's not because of political ideology it's because we want to be damn sure before we take action on it so someone could use a VPN perhaps and maybe additional email account and they could game the system in that we are certainly sophisticated ways that people can can do things to mask who they are and what accounts are there more lighting Todd what happens like I got a I got a email or text from Vijay one morning and said we are going to permanently suspend this particular account and it's not a you know what do you think it's we are going to do this and I then have an opportunity at to ask questions I asked a question why she gave me a link back to the document of all the findings and USA Today

► 02:10:35

we took the action I was on Twitter a bunch of people pointed me at this particular case since some of those tweets to her what's going on so that's in the background wouldn't you just terminate anybody associated with the company that was doing this I mean keep in mind to at the time when his campaign was happening this more pieces operation and the account associated with it so if you know he's the one running the company wouldn't you be like okay your gun

► 02:11:04

do you want us to take every single newspaper accounts attribution because what we were able to do in the Jacob Wohl situation was actually titles accounts in our own systems that control not just take the word of a newspaper accounts from his own statement and from his tweets that he was the running at running the company Jacob well I'm sorry I'm getting confused about where Jacob Wohl it's in the USA Today he says I'm doing this and you're like okay we can look as I can we can see if we get rid of them with with new knowledge you said you did take those countdown I believe we were able to take down at a certain cost of account that we saw engaging in the behavior but we won't weren't necessarily able to tie it back to one person controlling those can I get back like we'd like to have some sort of attribution that's a direct that we can see what we just take the any newspaper or any article at face value and just asking them to have to contact

► 02:12:04

come and get some service statement from him in order to take down his account obviously manipulating Twitter to clarify what they said what what they claimed they are times that was a false flag near times that they reviewed internal documents that showed they admitted it was a false flag operation the guy who runs the company said oh his company does this he wasn't aware necessarily but it was an experiment so he's he's giving kind of in my opinion duplicitous like you know not straightforward but at the time of this campaign which she claims to know about he tweeted that it was real so during the Roy Moore campaign he tweets wow look at the Russians then it comes out later his company is the one that did it so you're kind of like this guy was propping up his own fake news right then when they get busted he goes oh no it's just my company doing an experiment but you tweeted it wasn't real. You use your verified Twitter account to push the fake nerd of your comfort

► 02:13:04

pumping on this platform I want to make I guess is it sounds like I'm sorry Morgan so this is so I could have my you know facts wrong but there was a butt ug of wrongdoing what's the point out that I don't I don't think that the people who work at Twitter are killing their mustaches laughing you know that person the band button whenever you see a conservative I think it's just there's a bias that's unintentional that flows in One Direction so you see the news about Jacob Wohl and acting as a reason for it to is a couple reasons for one yours your staff is likely more that you mention more likely to lean left and look at certain sources so you're going to hear about more things more often and take action on those things as opposed to the other side of the coin but we have to consider like where the actions of taking place I'm speaking more broadly to

► 02:14:04

four thousand people that we have is a company versus deliberateness that we have on Bridges team for I just mean when we when we look at a company-wide average of all of your employees and the direction they lean versus the new sources they're willing to read you're going to see a flow in One Direction weather is intentional or not that's why I think the challenges we don't generally rely a new source isn't to find an escalation of our platform we're looking at what we're seeing that's why we will get tipped off to something but like for the most part when we're looking at manipulation it's not like the New York Times can tell us like what's going on on the platform where the ones that have the metadata about accounts were the ones I can see patterns of behavior upscale to hear your point in one name and I didn't know another name and it was because they just said you don't work permanently Banning this account and yes we did we did have it the same sort of findings in the other ticket account which I got feedback on pasta her and and we didn't find what we need a time I think months ago

► 02:15:04

a lot of what people assume is Mal intent is sometimes fake news you know I think one of my biggest criticisms in terms what's going on a culture is the news system is like you pointed out although it's changed like when your nails only follow themselves that's my experience I've worked for these companies and so they repeat the same narratives they don't get their bubble even today they're still in a bubble and they're not seeing what's happening outside of it and then what happens is you know we were courting today. I think this is from Pew most new journalism jobs are in blue districts so you've got people who only have the same thing the only cover the same story is so if you know we hear about jussie Smollett we hear about how The Story Goes meco's Wild but there's like eight hundred instances of trump supporters wearing Maga hats getting beaten you know throughout the past couple years we had a guy show up to a school and Eugene Oregon with a gun and fired two rounds in a smash the patriarchy and chill shirt and those stories don't make the headlines so it's you know when the journalists are inherently in a bubble the information you're going to get is a big company will follow these news organizations is going to be inherently

► 02:16:04

not one-sided as well and then the only action you going to be able to take is what you know you can't ban someone if you don't know they're doing it. I think our biggest issue and the thing that I want to fix the most is the fact that we create and sustain and maintain his Echo chambers that new feature that allows you to hide replies right we're testing were experimenting with the inability to enable people to have more control as you would expect to a host over the conversation and like Facebook allows that yeah but I don't think they have the level of transparency that we want to put into it so we actually want to show whether a comment was moderated and then actually allow people to see those comments I'm so both showing the action that this person moderated took her comment and then you can actually see the comment self it's one one click one click over one tap over that's how we're thinking about it might change in the future but we we can't do this without a level of transparency because we

► 02:17:04

minimize Something video spoke to earlier which is speaking truth to Power Coating people to account even things like the the fyre festival where you know you had these organizers who were deleting every single comment moderating every single comment that called this thing of Fraud and don't go here we can't we can't we can't reliably and and like just from a responsibility Sandpoint ever create a future that enables more of that to happen and that's how we're thinking about even features like this I'm going to jump right off to a different train car here has Law Enforcement ever asked you to keep certain people on the platform even after they violated the rules

► 02:17:42

not that I'm aware so that this you know too that to the next question pertaining to buy us you have the issue of antifa versus The Proud boys and Patriot prayer and Twitter permanently exercise anyone associated with proud boys antifa accounts who have broken the rules repeatedly branded known cells that have been involved in Bonsall still active

► 02:18:04

is there a reason with the proud boys what we were able to do was actually look at documentation and announcements that the leaders of that organization is made and they're due to violence in the real world that was we're focused on and subsequent to our decision I believe the FBI also designated that's not true not true it's not true it's not true Gavin McInnes Anthony cumia who was part of Opie and Anthony now has his own show talk told me about it happened on his show because there was a guy that was on the show and they made a joke about starting a gang based on him cuz he was very effeminate guy and they would call him the proud boys and they went into detail about how this thing became from a joke and saying that you could join the proud boys never was let you know it was like being silly two people joining it and then it be coming this thing to fight and Tifa and then becoming infested with white nationalist

► 02:19:04

and becoming extinct well in Indiana many ways it how it was but the it's been documented how it started and what it was and misrepresented as to what why was started I I I think there is something that should be clarified about them but Gavin has made a bunch of statements that cross the line for the one antifa was blocking people like Ben Shapiro speeches and things on those lines and stopping conservatives for speaking you should just just punch him in the face we don't have to start taking people's asses I was like this is not just irresponsible foolish and short-sighted and just a dumb way to talk so that you have the antifa groups that are engaging in the same thing we've sweet you know that the famous bike like Basher incident where a guy showed up hit 77 people have the bike lock babe going to go to the name I'm going to leave it on for the time being you have other groups like by emi's Nest by any means necessary that you have in

► 02:20:02

Portland for instance there specific branded factions there is between I mentioned earlier where they Doc's ice agents and they said do whatever inspires you his information and I mean you're taking too many times I know you probably can't see it but you can actually see that some of the Tweets in the thread are removed but the main tweet itself from an anti-fascist account linking to website straight up saying like here's the private home details phone number addresses of his law enforcement officer does not remove since September so he seeing is the point I think one of the big problems in this country is the media because it was reported that the FBI designated but it was a misinterpretation based sheer afro to draft saying with you know the FBI considers them to be extremists the media that reported hearsay from the sheriff that be I cannot say no no no we never meant to do that that's not true we are just concerned about violence so the proud boys I'll get purged and again I think you know Gavin the different story right if you want to go out for the individuals who are socially with that group versus the guy who was on the show and says outrageous things and goes and Joe show

► 02:21:02

antifa branded sounds like what I mean by that is they have a specific names they sell merchandise and they're the ones showing up throwing mortar shells into crowds they're the ones showing up with with crowbars and and bath and whacking people I was in Boston and there's a rally where conservatives are planning on putting her brother's literally just like Libertarians and conservatives antifa shows up with crowbars bats in balaclavas with weapon threatening them and I have to wonder if you know these people are a lot of organizing your platform are you concerned about that why are they being bad when they violate the rules why doesn't need a security in New Jersey has left them under domestic terrorism the general concept of anti-fascism is a loose term that means to oppose fascism but antifa is now they have a flag they had a flag since the Soviet you know it's sew in Nazi Germany and Soviet era and they brought it back there a Pacific groups that I'm not going to mention by name that have special

► 02:22:02

and they sell merchandise that appeared in and beerus news outlets they've expressed their desire to use violence to suppress speech there was a centralized organization the same way that I hear you on probably but like where they have like tenants that are written out and then there's a leader in like the same but there are specific brand that sells that's why I bring them up specifically I realized you know someone showing up to a rally wearing a black hoodie and sunglasses we we going to ban but there are groups that that organized specifically call for violence they they they push the line is closed as likely as possible they Advocate sabotage and things like this and you know when the proud boys got in a fight so not getting invites themselves you know so I should point out that they decided to call for violence based on antifa calling for violence and Tifa actually actually committing violence against conservative people there were there to see different people started because in Berkeley there was a trump rally after Milo got chased out of the Berkeley they were there

► 02:23:02

damages mean is a video of some guy in all black cracking someone on the back was on the ground looking like I'm conscious so he's conservative see this and they decide to hold a Rally's and we won't back down they hold a rally in Berkeley and then antifa shows up again I understand you can't figure out who these people are for the most part of the decentralized but then this insights and escalation you then get the rise of the base to stick man they called it as a shield up an armor with a stick and starts swinging back and now you have two factions forming so while I recognize it's much easier to ban a top-down group there are you know what is the difference of The Proud boys it's straight talk down vertical you look at antiphon there's different cells of varying size and their different accounts so I did I have to to like I got the arguing I can make is it going to be in the proud Boys by all means vacation but if you look at a specific Channel that's got 20,000 followers that cheers them on right is our people throw mortar shells to the crowds isn't advocating for you know terrorism incitement to violence

► 02:24:02


► 02:24:04

so I guess the question is how come they don't get removed

► 02:24:08

well in the past when we've looked at Aunt Eva week we ran into this decentralisation issue which is we weren't able to find the same type of information that we were able to find about probably is which is a centralized leadership based documentation of what they stand for but absolutely a minute something I will continue to look into and to the extent that they're using Twitter to organize any sort of offline violence completely prohibited under rules and we would absolutely take what I asked you by Gavin was band was there a specific thing that he did or was it his association with the proud Boys in citation abandon that he's not only that he's disassociated himself with it and said that it completely got out of hand he doesn't have anything to do with it I think about getting people back on the platform really a provocateur and he fancies himself you know sort of a punk rocker and he just he likes stirring shit I mean even when he came on my show last time he was on he was dressed up like Michael Douglas in falling

► 02:25:08

down you know he did it on purpose but a briefcase and everything I'm like what you doing so he's he's a showman in many ways and he did not mean for this to go the way it went he thought it would be this sort of innocent fun thing to be a part of and then other people got involved it in and then when people call for violence the problem is they think that it that you know if you're going to just hit people that's going to solve a problem it just creates a much lower much more comprehensive problem then Alex Jones ever did you want to say it's a joke or not he said things like you know choke on Punch-Out light directly ahead doesn't have them extremist group months in advance it was just his association with the proud boys

► 02:26:08

I don't recall whether those statements that you're referring to of Gavin's were on Twitter so they weren't does another you know when it comes to the weaponization of rules against like Gavin isn't getting a compilation of things he's ever said out of context and then sending the round himself and other people are doing that to him activists you don't like him and it's effective in fact I would actually like to point out there's one particular user who has repeatedly made fake videos attacking one of your other high-profile conservatives so much that they sent to file police report harassment complaint and it doesn't stop you know so I guess I'll ask this in this regard if someone repeatedly makes videos of you out of context fake audio accusing you of doing things you never done at what point is that bannable are not sold out of context you still have video the person saying that I agree that it's not a contest it it's disingenuous but it's still the person saying it and you're making

► 02:27:08

elevation of some pre-existing with all your video so I think in this instance of Gavin like one of the things he said was I could call to violence but he was talking about it was in the context of talking about a dog and being scolded so he was like and then it's like it turns out he's talking about dogs like something wrong and then I guess the issue as if people keep doing that to destroy someone's life so it was I think there's a big discussion I think both of you could probably get some important light on to outside of Twitter this weaponization of content from platforms is being used to get people banned from their bank accounts you know they're get there we can talk about patreon for instance and again I'm not this is may just be something you could try it on patreon band man in call Benjamin also known as Sargon of akkad he's also banned from Twitter and it was from Twitter I can see

► 02:28:05

that's an interesting one

► 02:28:08

I do have some some of the details here do you want me to read them but I will say it like white people kill all man dies this come none of the above qualify as hate speech joking around their head white people and also sounds like he also posted a photo of interracial gay porn at some white nationalist to make them angry and yes he's funny

► 02:29:03

he's funny sometimes I can understand how posting that photo is an egregious violation of the rules whether whether or not he was trying to insult some people that's a very good point and I wanted to bring that up is pouring a violation of the rules

► 02:29:17

corn generally no good really good for you cuz it happens in my feet all the time I fall a cup of naughty girls and occasionally they they post pictures of themselves engaging in Intercourse I'm like yeah Ike's white what what else were the other strikes for Sargon let's see there was the use of a Jewish slur how to use it to a person you traitor remainer white genocide supporting Islam a file

► 02:29:49

Jewish slur lover

► 02:29:51

that should keep you going hashtag Hitler was right in contacts. It sounds like the other one like in context what he saying particular the fact that he's a white guy that doesn't sound like a racial slur at all I mean he's saying fuck white people and he is white and red together I always knew that person was not to be trusted that fucking Jewish Lark when you saying this about a specific Jewish person I don't know the race of us person in this is not okay but this is not it does not parody this is not joking around we didn't do it that way I'm just like really I'm just telling you what they were so I knew he had done things that were like a violation of the rules cuz you know it's implied and bring him up to go through in trying to figure out if it does

► 02:30:51

I'd like at least the first one was meant to be a joke of some kind of malignant cancer don't forget it it's not one thing or two things or three things is like a bunch of them in the past and I think it's a very different now and I guess the reason I brought him up was not very different now how so well as much calmer he's less likely to insult someone directly he makes probably recognizing the last straw off of Twitter he's on YouTube is from going to mind his p's and q's

► 02:31:45

the reason I brought him up again but we'll move on was that activists found a live stream from 8 months ago I totally forgot why I was bringing up to be moved so far away from him over but they pulled us a clip from an hour and a half or whatever into a 2 hour livestream on a small channel that only have 2,000 views send to patreon and then patreon said yep that's a violation and banned him outright without warning which I've got to understand is different from what you guys do you do suspensions first but I got to talk about a few things why blocking isn't enough why muting isn't enough and if you think that it's driving people off the platform people post my tweets on Reddit I block them they use a dummy account load up my tweet posts Reddit and then spam me on Reddit so you know blocking and even leaving Twitter would never do anything short of me shutting up there's nothing you can do to protect me or anyone else look at these are exactly the conversations were having won the reason why I don't think blocking and reading are enough is one I don't think we've made me

► 02:32:45

powerful enough it's spread all over the service you you can use it and then you got to go find where you actually me to these people are their profile page and that just it's not a it's a disaster it just doesn't work in the same way that it should work in the same way that follow works but it is just the inverse of them I noticed it now I get a notification says you can't see this week because you needed this person before I would just see a weird reply and be like oh it's one of those exactly there's also all this infrastructure that we have to fix in order to like past those through in terms of what action you took her what action someone else talk to be transparent about look what's happening on the network has the second the second thing is block is really interesting. I think it's my own view is a wholly-owned unsatisfying because

► 02:33:37

what you're doing is you're blocking someone they get notification that you've blocked them which may and both of them even more which causes you know others around and ramifications from the network but also would that person can logout of Twitter and then look at your tweets just on the Prairie quit because we're we're public so it doesn't feel as durable something like making mute much stronger but no matter what you put in place people are going to harass you if you're okay if you're engaging in public discourse you know if I go out in the street and and y'all out my opinion somebody could get my face if I get off Twitter cuz I'm sick and I mean you know I'm sure you get away more than I do especially as you know the high-profile probably give me the right now what's up with the only thing I can do is look we're not on Twitter right now we're on Joe Rogan's podcast and they're still going to Target you on Twitter there's no guarantee we're all over Reddit the the life is probably railing on me the right

► 02:34:37

you guys so it's it's it seems like even if you try everything in your power to make Twitter healthier and better it's not going to change anything about that I'm not sure about that because one of the things that I do think is that just I'm not in favor of a lot of this heavy-handed Banning and a lot of the things that have been going on particularly like a case like the Megan Murphy case but what I think that we are doing is we're we're exploring the idea of civil discourse where we're trying to figure out what's acceptable and what's not acceptable and you're communicating about this on a very large scale and it's putting that out there and then people are discussing it whether they agree or disagree with a vehement Lee defend you or I hate you they're discussing this this is I think this is how these things change and they change over long periods of time think about words that were commonplace

► 02:35:32

just a few years ago that you literally can't say anymore right now and there's so many of them that were extremely, play some not even thought to be offencive 10 years ago that now you can get band off apple sauce for argue against Banning people and to cease enforcing hate speech rules important I was in the UK at an event for my name count dankula who I don't know if you've heard I was sure it was a guy who got charged and convicted of making a joke we're headed his pug doing Nazi salute but I was there and I was arguing that a certain white nationalist had used racial slurs on YouTube he has I want to name him and some guy in the UK said that's not true he's never done that and I said you're crazy let me pull it up unfortunately I don't know why but when I get the Google search nothing came up what I did notice that the bottom of the page it said do to you know UK law certain things have been removed so I

► 02:36:32

don't know if that's exactly why I couldn't pull up a video proving or tweets or anything because I think using these words get stripped from the social platforms I could not prove to this man the Metro Centre in the UK that this could use a VPN in and get around them I mean at the time I was just like trying this weird so now you have someone who doesn't realize he's a fan of a bigot because the law has restricted the speech so there's a point to be made if you understand you want to help feed like you you want her to grow you need to grow the shareholders needed to grow that advertisers need to advertise so you got all these restrictions but allowing people to say these awful things make sure we stay away from them and it allows us to avoid certain people and it isn't it important to know that these people hold these believes you get rid of them you know someone could walk into a business and you wouldn't even know that they were a Neo-Nazi but if they were high-profile saying the things you would like that and it's so so so

► 02:37:32

I like one of the biggest problems with censorship is the fact that you push people underground and you don't know what's going on and this is something I worry about it's not that I don't worry about it. Also worried about driving people away from the platform and the affecting their of real lives so like what we're trying to find this right balance then I hear you like you may not think we're drawing the lines in the right place and get that feedback all the time and always trying to find the right place is going to do that as much about like the underground and like being able to shine a light on these things is is anything else benefit amounts of similar we have to constantly rehash it in and do it like we we have the technology we have today and we are looking at Technologies which open up the app shirt even more and we

► 02:38:22

all agree that a binary on or off is not the right answer and is not scalable we have started getting into Nuance within their enforcement and we've also started getting into Nuance with the presentation of of content so you know One path might have been for some of your replies for us to just remove those you no offense of replies completely we don't do that we hide it behind an interstitial to protect the original Tweeter in it and and also folks who don't want to see that they can still see everything they just have to do one more top so that's one solution ranking is another solution but as technology gets better and we get better at applying to it we have a lot more optionality whereas we don't we don't have that as much today I feel like I'm going to rewrite an earlier point though you know if you recognize sunlight is the best disinfectant your it's like you're chasing after a goal that can never be met if you want to if you want to protect all speech

► 02:39:22

nhr Banning certain individual you what you want it you increase the amount of all the conversations but you're Banning some people well how long until this group is not offended by that group how long till you're banned everybody I hear you I don't believe a permanent ban for Motel so I don't I don't believe that but we we have to we have to work with the technology tools and conditions that we that we have today so and evolved over overtime to where we can see examples like this woman at the Westboro Baptist Church who was using Twitter every single day to spread hate against the other piece of QA community and over time we had I think it was three or four folks on Twitter who would engage her every single day about what she was doing and she actually left the church and then she's crazy she's not pulling her family out of that as well and you could make the argument that if we bands that account early on she would have never left the church I completely here that we we get it

► 02:40:22

it's just want to make sure we had the conversation too and I just need to go back so I'll just ask you this have you considered allowing some of these people probably been back on with some restrictions maybe you can only twice per day maybe you can't retweet or something to that effect or very early in our thinking here so we're open-minded to how to do this I think we agree philosophically that permanent bands are in extreme case scenario and it shouldn't be one of our regular used tools in our tool chest so how we do that I think it's something that were actively talking about today is there a timeline that we can fix a lot of problems yes I really do like bands of a year 5 years 10 years like I'm just curious like what what is a reasonable ban in this kind of contact I think reasonably so much you have to State their cases to why they want to be unbanned like someone should have to have a like a well measured considerate response to what they did wrong did do they agree with what

► 02:41:22

Bronx baby perhaps saying why they don't think they did anything wrong and you could review it from there I'm getting hundreds of years of precedent developing new rules and figure out what works and doesn't put his very different so I think with the technology I don't know if you need permanent bands or even or even suspensions at all you could literally just I mean block someone's account is essentially suspending them but I wouldn't be no claim to know anything about the things you go through but what if you just restricted most of what they could say you know you block certain words and start dictionary if someone has been greased Hill or the dictionary block from hate speech words right does that not make sense about perhaps instead of

► 02:42:22

what is it possible to have levels of Twitter like a completely uncensored on moderated level of Twitter and then you know what have like a rated R and then have like a PG-13 don't think that's a bad idea we have those levels in place today but you don't really see them when we have a not-safe-for-work switch what you can turn on or off Beyonce for Works which I think you have it off Joe. Earlier we know we have the timeline weed we started ranking the timeline about three years ago we enabled people today to turn that off completely and see you know the reverse KRON of everything they follow you can you can imagine a world where that switch has a lot more power over more of our them throughout more of the surface areas you can imagine. So these are all the questions are on the table yes About Time Low

► 02:43:22

this is this is a challenging when I don't know about timeline because first we we've decided that our priority right now is going to be on practically enforcing a lot of this content specifically around anything that Impact Physical safety like like doxxing so right but there is so many examples of what you guys not doing that but I know but that's what we'd that's what we're doing right now that's that's a milestone son. I might we're going to move as fast as we can but some of it's a function of all of our infrastructure of the technology we have to we have to bring to bear do you guys have conversations about trying to shift the public perception of having this left-wing bias maybe possibly addressing it doing right now right Sean Hannity Show

► 02:44:22

the run a lot of really tough questions and that is at the back as well as I get it like look again I'm from Missouri my dad is Republican he listen to Hannity he listen to Rush Limbaugh my mom was a Democrat and I feel extremely fortunate that I was able to foresee that Spectrum but also feel safe enough to express my own point of view but when I go on someone like Andy I'm not talking to you I'm talking to people like my dad to listen to him and I want to get across how we think and and also that are thinking of olives and here's the challenges we're seeing in like this is our intent this is what we're trying to protect and we're going to make some mistakes along the way and we're going to admit to him we didn't admit to them in the past week and then to a lot more over over the past three years but no I don't know any other way to address some of these issues it all it all goes back to trust like our operating principles is earning trust how do we earn more Trust

► 02:45:22

how do you know the people in the world who do not trust us at all in there are some people who trust us a little bit more but this is a thing that we want to measure the the thing that we want to get better at conversation with Aunt Katie hertzog know know who was it has the wrong person Twitter conversation with Kara Swisher I see the left was that you in the opposite direction they want more can they want more Banning they want more you know restrictions and then look at the right is saying less right so I mean in terms of solving the problem with our conversations about do you want some rest cuz my nothing I was pointing out specifically was that you were being asked to do more than two terms of controlling and it wasn't just more but to be a lot more specific about what actions we've taken to promote Morehouse on the platform like wood products that we change what policies did we introduced in the past two years so she's asking questions every question

► 02:46:22

see how she wanted me to be a lot more specific and some of these things have something that is very specific sum or directional right now because it's like we we have to prioritize you know the direction and and I talked about like you know we've decided that physical safety is going to be a party for us and to us that means like being a whole lot more proactive around things like doxxing I guess that's an implied that you have unlimited funding but we did mention the peer-review don't read right I need and you had to know they're really awesome retraction here if you would you mentioned but have you guys considered opening an office even a small one for trust and safety in an area that's not predominantly blue so that at least you have like you can have some pushback and his what is learn to code mean and then they can tell you absolutely back in just so you know that the trust and safety team is also Global team reinforcements Global team so it's not like people from California who are looking at everything making decisions are Global now I hear your point about

► 02:47:22

she trains them in the materials that have and all that and like we have to think about that and that's that's one thing that Jack has really been pushing us to think about is how do we do centralized our work for us because our service isn't he he's very focused on what about publishing evidence of wrongdoing in a Banning so when people say you know what did Alex Jones really do maybe like people didn't realize what you what you saw that again it's an issue of trust yeah I love this Tim I'm a lawyer so by training were thinking of doing something called we call case studies but essentially like this is our case law this is what we use and so high-profile cases case of people ask us about like actually published this so that we can go through you know what we buy treats us like this because I think a lot of people just don't understand they don't believe us when we're saying these things could have put that out there so people can see and I got an A May disagree with the calls that were making but we at least want them to see why we're making these calls I think and that that I do want to do I want to at least start that by the end of this year

► 02:48:21

so I think you know ultimately my main criticism stands and I don't see a solution to in that Twitter is an unelected you know unaccountable as far as I'm concerned when it comes to public discourse you have rules that are very clearly at odds as we discussed I don't see a solution to that and I think in my opinion we can have this kind of like we tone things down we had some interesting conversations But ultimately unless you're willing to allow people to get speak speak speak highly freely you are and we have an unelected group with a near-monopoly on public discourse in many capacities and I understand it's not everything Reddit is Big too and it's you know what I see is you are going to dictate policy whether you realize it or not and that's going to terrify people and it's going to make violence happen is going to make things worse you know that the like I hate you bring up this example on the on the rule for misgendering because I'm actually I understand it and I can agree with it to a certain extent you know nothing works back to the trans Community but I also recognize we see an escalation in Street violence we see a continually a Distant Fire

► 02:49:21

large batch of individuals country with NC only one of those factions band with NC massive multinational billion-dollar Corporation with private about a foreign investors and it looks to me like if you hold if if you know foreign governments try to manipulate us that I don't see a solution to that problem that you do have political views you do enforce them and that means that Americans were buying by American roller bearing exercise from political discourse and that's the future that's it we do have fuse on on the approach and then again we ground assassin rating as much opportunity as possible for the largest number of people and where we are today will certainly evolve but like that that is what we are trying to Besar a rose and judgments not and I I get that that's an ideology I completely understand it but we we also have to

► 02:50:15

we also have to be free to experiment with Solutions and experiment with evolving policy and putting something out there that might look right at the time and evolving I'm not saying this is it but like we we look to research we look to our experience and out on the platform and I we make a call and if we get it wrong or we're going to admit it and we're going to have often do you do you understand my point I understand the point that they are there are American citizens abiding by the law of a right to speak in public discourse that you have decided aren't allowed to do and I think we've discussed like we we we don't see that as a win weed we see that it has not promoting Health in overtime what is ultimately what is your priority do you have it prioritized in terms of what you got what you guys would like to change that a couple times but the first thing we're going to do is prioritize people

► 02:51:15

that's got to be understanding make the link enough online and offline Grand Vacations what's the main criticism what's the main criticism you guys is it says there's hope that you guys experience is it censorship is a Banning like what is it would have been done it depends on who you're a single person has a different criticism so I don't think there's a universal opinion between does icing for less if that's very simplified just for this country but my opinion would be as much as I don't like I don't like a lot of people say about me what they do the rules even force on Twitter have done nothing to stop harassment towards me or anyone else right bye guys would have had my Twitter I mean my Reddit is probably you know 50 messages from various you know far-left and left-wing subreddits

► 02:52:15

lying about me calling me horrible names to pull tweeting me and these people are blocked right I never used to block people because I thought it was silly cuz I can get it anyway but I decided to at one point because out of sight out of mind if I see my tweets last I'll probably interact with me last but they do this and they lie about what I believe they lie about what I stand for and they're trying to destroy everything about me and they do this to other people I recognized that so ultimately I say what what can you do that's going to happen on one of these platforms the internet is a thing as they say on the internet welcome to the Internet so you know what you mean I see Twitter trying to enforce all these rules to to maximize good and all you end up doing is stripping people from the platform putting them in dark corners of the web where they get worse and then you don't actually saw the rat problem is it going to go away and people have found alternatives and here's the other thing is really disconcerting we can see a trend among all these different big Silicon Valley Tech companies in a hole

► 02:53:15

by the band somewhere ideology and they're creating a parallel Society you've got alternative social networks popping up that are taking the dregs of the of the mainstream and give him a place to flourish grow make money now we're seeing people be banned from MasterCard from banned from PayPal even banned from Chase Bank because they all hold the same somebody I'll get to you so it's you know in some capacities I don't know exactly why Chase doesn't I assume it's because you'll get some activists to allies I don't know much about her I follow her on Twitter and her tweets are typical conservative fair and she created a comic I think it's called lady Alchemy she's a trump supporter and she got a notice that her business account was terminated you then have Joe Biggs who previously worked with Infowars I don't know much about this I didn't follow up but he tweeted out chases out of my account and then you have the new chairman of The Proud boys Enrique

► 02:54:15

Atari or something and so is really white oh no he's a he's a Cuban I know that's what's the weather like for about perspective on these things you guys are like we're going to do this one thing and no Snowflake Lane it's off of the Avalanche but now what do we have we have conserve is being stripped from PayPal we have certain individuals from PayPal patreon financing so they set of Alternatives now we're seeing people who have like you mentioned Westboro Baptist Church and she's bendy radicalized by being on the platform but now we have people who are being radicalized by being pushed into dark corners and they're building and they're getting their growing and they're growing because there's this in this idea that you can control this and you can't you know I think you mentioned earlier that their studies showing and Elsa counter said he would people exposed to each other is better I found something really interesting and cuz I have most whether or not people want to believe us all of my friends are on the left and some of them are Eve

► 02:55:15

Mike socialists and they're absolutely terrified to say to talk because they know they'll get attacked by the people who call for censorship and try to get him fired and when I talked to them I was talking to a friend of mine in LA and she said is there a reason to vote for Trump and I explained a very simple thing about Trump supporters is back in 2016 I said oh well you know that I love people who are concerned about the free trade agreements sending jobs overseas so they don't know much about Trump but then I bought from because he supported that to the brain and then the responses really I didn't know that and so you have the ever-expanding narrative that Trump supporters are neo-nazis in the mob has the KKK hood and a lot of this right erector you know images on Twitter but when a lot of issues are getting exercised then you can't actually meet these people and see that there actually people and they may be mean they may be mean people and maybe awful people but they're still people and even if that bad opinions sometimes you actually I think in most instances you find the regular people what is a part of the problem of calling for censorship in Banning people in that it is sometimes effective

► 02:56:15

and that people don't want to be thought of as being racist or in support of racism were in support of nationalism or any of these horrible things so you feel like if you support these Bannings you support positive discourse in a good suicide and all these different things what you don't realize is what you're saying is that this does create these dark corners of the web and these other social media platforms involve and have Farm it mean when you talking about bubbles in about these these groupthink bubbles the worst kind of groupthink bubbles is a bunch of hateful people that get together and decide their post they been persecuted instead of like we were talking about with Megan Phelps having an opportunity to maybe reshape their views by having discourse with people who choose to or not choose to engage with what let's let's think about the The Logical end of where this is all going you want help your conversation so you're willing to get rid of some people who then feel persecuted and had no choice but to band together with others MasterCard Chase patreon they all

► 02:57:15

Facebook doesn't they're growing or getting more users are expanding or showing up in in real life and there you know even if these people who are banned aren't the Neo-Nazi evil they're just regular people have banded together that forms a parallel Finance system a parallel economy you got Patron Alternatives emerging where people are saying you know Wheatley reject you and now on a platform of people say the most ridiculous things now they have money to normalize that as well that's also a problem and you can't stop them anymore and it develops hate for the opposing Viewpoint you start hating people that are progressive because he's the people that like you would have talked about the Dayton Society report that labeled us is alright adjacent or what whatever that morphine is coming I got it right because you and I have talked to people that are on the right or far right it somehow Or Another We're secretly far right and that there's a influencer network of people together and suspect schizophrenic connection it's like one of those

► 02:58:15

things were people draw Circle oh you talk to this guy in this guy talk to that guy there for you know that guy was entirely fake or Port labeling 81 alt-right adjacent to wherever they want to call it YouTube channels included Joe Rogan and me and speak but you know what a couple dozen news outlets wrote about is if it was fact you believe the proud boys were labeled as FBI by the FBI's extremists when they actually weren't it was a sheriff report from someone out of Philly with the FBI but they are activists within media who have an agenda and we saw this with learn to code it was an NBC reporter who very clearly isn't being a left-wing identitarian writing a story for NBC then your average American sees the NBC story thinks it's factual

► 02:59:00

they never talks about it then your people hear about it then you start Banning people so you know but I guess them to drive the point home the snowflake wool blankets off of the Avalanche you guys are doing what you think is right so is Facebook YouTube Patron all these all these platforms and it's all going to result in one thing it's going to result in groups like Patriot prayer and the proud boys saying I refuse to back down showing up as a result in antifa showing up it's going to result in more extremism you got an answer of account that publish the home addresses and phone numbers that hasn't been banned that's going to further show conservatives that the policing is asymmetrical whether you know it is or isn't and I think the only outcome to this on the current course of action is like Insurgency we've seen people planting bombs and using try to blow up the statue we saw someone plant a bomb at a police station in Eugene Oregon two weeks before that guy showed up with the gun and fired two rounds at a cop going to smash the patriarchy and chill shirts so you know what a week later bomb is planted I don't believe it's a coincidence maybe it is but

► 03:00:00

I got up too many people knew who I was and there was people sending me emails with threats and I'm like this is escalating you know we've seen from the past years with Trump we seen Breitbart has a list of 640 instances of trump supporters being physically attacked or her ass in some way there was a story the other day about an 81 year old man who was attacked and it seems like everything's flowing in One Direction and nobody wants take responsibility and say maybe we're doing something wrong right this early regulation is it in my pain is inevitable I don't think it's going to be the responsibility but desire on your be clear that we have a desire to promote Health in in public conversation and as we said like I don't think

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overtime a permanent ban promotes I don't but we have we have to we have to get there and there are we we we we just have work to do and I tied the benefit of conversations like this is we're talking about it more but the people will naturally call us out like you got to you got to show it as well I don't I don't fear regulation if if we're talking about regulation in the human intervention in the in the job of if a regular job is to protect the individual and make sure that they level the playing field and they're not push by any particular special interests like companies like ours who might be no work with regular to protect our own interest. I think is incorrect I agree that we should have

► 03:01:39

I an agency that can help us protect the protect the individual and level the playing field died so I think oftentimes companies see themselves as reacting to regulation night I think we need to take more of an educational so I don't fear it I want to make sure that we're educating Regulators on what's possible what we're seeing and when and where we could go when you say educating regulator initiating regulation I mean who are these Regulators are folks who who might be tasked with coming up with a proposal for particular legislation or or laws to resent to legislators so it's making sure that we are educating to the best of our ability this is what we are this is what we see you this is where technology is going and do you think you can hold off regulation that you did you think that buy these approaches and by being proactive and by taking a stand perhaps offering Up a Road to Redemption

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these people and making clear distinctions between what you're what you're allowing what you're not allowing you can hold off regulation or do you disagree with what he saying about regular I don't believe that should be our goal is to hold off if we should be we should participate like any other citizen whether it be a corporate citizen or individual citizen in helping to guide the right regulation so I could be wrong on this because it's been like 15 years since I've done this way from lady with the clean water restoration act at all I don't think so it was at some point in like the early 70s there was a river in Ohio and again I could be wrong than 15 years I used to work for me by Michael organization start on fire and what was typically told to us was that all of these different companies said we're doing the right thing but the like as I mentioned snowflake unemployment self so over time the river was so polluted it became sludge and Len fire and so someone said if all of these companies think of doing the right thing and they've all just contributed to this nightmare we need to

► 03:03:39

call them blanket regulation and see what I see with these companies like banking institutions public discourse platforms video distribution I actually I'm really worried about what regulation will look like because I think the government is going to screw everything up but I think there's going to be a recoil of first I think the Republicans cuz I watch the testimony been in Congress and I thought they had no idea there talk about nor do they care there was like a couple people to make a good point but the most part they were like iron whatever and ask about Russian stuff no idea what's going on but there'll come a time when you know friends with one of the one of the great things they brought up with that by default when someone in DC signs they see way more Democrats than Republicans right you remember that when you can ask about yeah so well that there's an issue and I don't think I believe you when you say tell the redneck that these are so they can automatically recommended but then there you know so again the solution to that like how do you regulate a programmer to print out resin to solve that problem is is is greater your regulating someone to invent technology but I feel like there will be a

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backlash when too many right now we're saying there isn't one of those are having this conversation is that conservatives feel like they're being persecuted and repressed so then it's going to act like I'm going to stop and wait we've been having a lot of talks about this pretty lady around algorithms and one of the things that we really focused on is not just fairness and outcomes but also explain ability of algorithms and I Know Jack you you love this afternoon if you want to talk a little bit about at work though yeah I mean we are so there's two fields of research with an artificial intelligence of Revenue but I think really impactful for industry one is fairness and ml so fairness in machine learning and deep-learning so looking at everything from what data set is fed to Ann Arbor them so like the training data set all the way to how the hour of them actually behaves on that on that. I said making sure that it does not develop vyas over the lunch and longevity of the algorithm to use case so that's one area that we want to

► 03:05:39

Lita and we've been working with some of the leading researchers in the industry to do that because the reality is a lot of this human judgment is moving out rooms and the 2nd issue with it moving our rhythms is our lives today can't necessarily explain the decision-making criteria that they use so they can't explain in the way that you make a decision you explain why you make that decision I really nice today or not being programmed in such way that they can even explain that you may wear an Apple Watch run since it might tell you to stand every now and then right now those out rhythms can't explain why why they're doing it right. That's a bad example cuz he does it every every 15 minutes but as we offload more and more of these decisions both internally and also individually to watch Citizen and into cars and whatnot there are there is no does nobility right now for that I read them to actually go through and list out the criteria used to make that decision so this is another area

► 03:06:39

we'd like to get really good at if we want to continue to be transparent around our actions because a lot of these things are just black boxes and they're being built in that way because there's been no Research into like why are we get these are rooms to explain what their decision is that my husband has is its technology that you need to build but the public discourse is there we we know that foreign governments are doing as we know that Democratic operatives in Alabama did this and so I imagine that you know what Donald Trump you know we talked about executive order for free speech on college campuses so that the chattering is is hear someone's going to take a sledgehammer to Twitter to Facebook to YouTube and just be like not understanding the technology behind it not willing to give you the benefit of the benefit of the doubt and just saying I don't care why you're doing it we are mad and I'm and I have some bills and then that's over again I think you guys are biased and I think what you're doing is dangerous but I think that doesn't matter it doesn't matter what you think is right it matters at all

► 03:07:39

all of these companies are doing similar things and it's and it's and it's already terrifying people I mean luck when when I tell somebody got banned from their bank account that's terrifying and PayPal has done this for a long time you know that seems like more egregious than any social justice or social media platform that that's intended to be worthy of a boycott Patriot Patriot statement about a man I believe his name is Robert Spencer and they said MasterCard instructed us to ban him and you know what you don't say this to me mentioning Chase PayPal Mastercard terrifies me I'm on The Joe Rogan podcast right now calling out these big companies in defiance and we've already seemed like to know all the specifics of why they chose to do that and I would hope that they would really some sort of a statement explaining why they chose to do that maybe there's something we don't know there was a there was a reporter and I could be in the rocks and follow it very much with big league politics who said that after reporting on PayPal negatively they banned him

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that's terrifying reporting on it and what way like reporting on the Sargon of akkad issue apparently is a journalist who wrote about something bad PayPal did Big League politics is conservative and so all the sudden you got a notification that they can't tell him why but he's gone so I see these big Tech monopolies I see YouTube Facebook Twitter I see Paypal Mastercard and they're doing it and they all say they're doing the right thing but all of these little things they're doing are adding up to something nightmarish and some some right legislator going to show up and in a matter of time with a sledgehammer and just his hair wack your algorithm it's really the same stupid logic Rose talking about where you know Gavin was saying punch people will you punch people in their band them in there doesn't in there to realize also

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Twitter is how old now 11 years old 13 years old about 13 years from now what are the odds that does not going to be something else just like it well pretty slim relationship that a lot of defending the policies you guys push it was when I found 5% of the Tweet of the passageway for the post on gambell hate speech Twitter is like 2.4 so it's a marginal increase that Gap is called the white supremacy network of course you go on it and yeah absolutely exists they say that synagogue shooter old was Gabby user Twitter user to be posted on Twitter all the time so why the media is is targeting it's it's such a crazy sigmarus reality when the guardian I believe was the Daily Mail called count dankula Nazi hate Criminal on YouTube and he's being arrested and I thank God every day we have the first moment in this country has a cover of a newspaper

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cuz you got to get a job somewhere they get got fired for that got kicked off the show so you have

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3 take the advice of like it it's it's widely circulated the splc Lobby's various social platforms to ban certain people that buys it's been reported that buys YouTube as the Anti-Defamation League do you use them in your decision-making process it rule development where are very aware of the flaws with certain of their research and we're very careful about who we take advice from what do they have certainly reached out to our team members but they're certainly nothing to send it is that we take from them you know in the United States that's what other groups like I hope not hate in the UK and now they're all going to point their you know figurative guns at me for saying this but the Southern Poverty Law Center article where they claimed I went to Aron for Holocaust deniers conference and I've never been to around in their evidence was this guy found an archived website from a holocaust denier with my name on it and I was there proof and there are people who have been labeled an extremist by this organization that have been

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Sam Harris organizations do so we have activist organizations we have journalist that I can attest are absolutely activist cuz I've worked for I work for vice I worked for Fusion I was told implicitly not explicitly to lie to side with the audience as if it were I've seen the The Narrative they push and I've had conversations with people that I'm not going to I'm going to keep relatively off the Record journalists who are terrified because they said the narrative is real right one journalist in particular said that he had yet evidence of you know essentially he had reason to believe there was a wrongdoing but he talks about it he could lose his job and there are there was a journalist who reported to me that dated Society admitted the report was was was was was incorrect and now you've got organizations lobbying for terminating Joanne died because of this stuff so this

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narrative persists then you see all the actions I mentioned before and all the organization saying we're doing the right thing and I got to say like we're living in a I mean I feel like we're looking at the doorway to the nightmare dystopia other I just want to clarify like I don't I don't know if we're going around saying we're we're not really doing the right thing we're saying why we're doing what we're doing it right that's what we need to get that and I don't want to hide behind what we believe is like the right thing we have to clearly rationalize why were making the decision were making and more of that that's that to me is a prevention from this snowflake Avalanche run before I think it's just obvious to point out again I said this before we can have the conversation and I can understand you but for him from where I'm sitting you hold a vastly different ideologies and I do and you have substantially more power and controlling my government that terrifies me and with what makes it worse is that a Saudi Prince on his life was reported

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portion of that company so I'm sitting here like just a little American can't do anything to stop it I'm just watching this unaccountable machine turn away and you're just one snowflake in an avalanche all these other companies are as well and I'm like well here we go going to be a ride brightest SVG said that Saudi Prince has never any influence I think it's silly to app to imply that they don't at least have some important but regardless and then unlike the internet within a company like ours you don't necessarily see the protocol you don't see the the processes and that open area where we can do it, you know it had a million times worse I think ultimately yeah I get what you're doing I think it's wrong I think it's terrifying and I think we're looking we're we're we're on the Avalanche already has happened and where we're heading down to this nightmare scenario by Future where it terrifies me when I see people who claim to be supporting liberal ideology burning signs that say Free Speech threatening violence against other people

► 03:14:30

Gabby's journalist to do the same thing they accuse everybody of being a Nazi everybody of being a fascist Joe Rogan and you're like you're like a socialist as far as I know you like Ubi proponent you know very liberal and except for 2nd Amendment that's probably the only thing that I disagree with a lot of liberals and then you see what the media says about everybody you see how they called Jordan Peterson all day and night all right. Write and his narrative is used to strip people of their income to get to remove them from public discourse I know it's foolish because it in the ultimately upon examination like you were saying that sunlight is the best disinfectant at the end of upon examination you realize this is not true at all and that these people look foolish like the Dayton Society article people who are these people that are still siding it Guardian will class and start yelling shame but so so

► 03:15:30

we now have an estimate would make things much easier as we not have a guy who's claiming that he didn't visit during all of this guy claiming that the 81 accounts listed on this thing as all right have been. No longer being recommended on YouTube and so I looked at the the the statistics for various people discounts for sale my channel is doing great my recommendations are way up other yours a lot of people are growing and I did a comparison like subscribers reviews about what this guy claiming and apparently he did a big sampling of videos where he for some reason thought you go Rogan where 12% of all the videos in this network and then when the when is data stop working he claimed that everything stop so we actually produce the graph of primarily you or your channel and then when the system stopped working he published that and it was picked up by Cena and now you have people claiming the alt-right has been banned from from YouTube and it's more fake news based off fake news based off fake news

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we have been stripped of recommendations on YouTube that you just like Alex Jones of saying like the video we did got 9 million views but it's not trending on the bus because my videos never Trend they just don't trend while you're at work but I think it's probably because of the language it's used as I think that's that's part of the issues of subject matter in language I think they have they have a bias against wearing and you know extreme topics and subjects if I messed up things that don't swear though that it's not it's not a matter of and what they talked about whether that's messed up in comparison what we talked about it's probably pretty different you know I'm in I'm I'm fairly resigned to this future happening no matter what we do about it until I bought a van and I'm going to give her that she wasn't supposed to work station right

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first of all I will say it's hilarious to me like that people have Band-Aids they never use but they don't store like at least one emergency like food supply it's like you never use Band-Aids why do you have them but I know I do I do I I see this every day it was a couple years ago I said wow I see what's happening on social media we're going to see violence boom bound to happen I said oh it's going to ask what time he's going to kill boom trucks what happened and it's like there been statements from foreign security advisor International Security Experts saying we're facing down high probability of Civil War and I know it sounds crazy it's not going to look like what you think it looks like it may not be as Extreme as it wasn't eighteen hundreds but this was I think I think it was the Atlantic where they serve at something like 10 different in International Security Experts who said based on what the platforms are doing based on how the people are responding one guy said it was like 90% chance but the average was really high but what's let's look outside of the idea of physical war and let's look at the war of information what were talking about what's happening with foreign entities invading social media platforms and trying

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iPhones are elections in our democracy that is a war of information that is that war is already going on if you looking at something like they didn't Society that's sort of an act of war in that regard what is information War to lie to people about their their head and it's also platforming is an effective way to silence and then calls for us to be saying that we should be banned tell that she said was they don't agree with it's very important for people to understand where silencing people leads to and I don't think they do I think people have these very simplistic ideologies and he's very very narrow-minded perceptions of what is good and what is wrong and I think and I've been saying this over and over again but I think it's one of the most important things to State people need to learn to be reasonable they need to be

► 03:19:30

learn to be reasonable and civil discourse extremely important and think over the long-term 30 minutes is I don't think I think that a good conversation I think we could honestly I don't think we saw anything I don't think there's any way we can do this again like six months and see where you guys are at in terms of like what I think is important is a Road to Redemption I think I would open up a lot of doors for a lot of people appreciate you and we're going to need more than 6 months when I was making the our culture is going to evolve faster than you can catch up to that problem because there's a problem and I don't know technology took a big leap Twitter existed internet existed now while talking so quickly

► 03:20:30

you can't actually solve the problem before the people get outraged by it so I mean there was an early phrase in the Internet by some of the earliest an internet engineers and designers which is code is off

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and a lot of a lot of wood

► 03:20:47

companies like ours and startups and random folks who are individuals who are contributing to the internet will change parts of society in some for the positive or the negative and the most I think the most important thing that we need to do is to as what you said shine I'll punch your light on it make sure that people know where we stand and where were trying to go and what Bridges we might need to build from our current state to the Future State and n and be open about the fact that like we're not going to win this is your other point that we're not going to get to a perfect answer here like it it's it's just going to be steps in steps in steps in steps in the what we need to build is agility what we need to build his inability to experiment very very quickly and take in all these feedback loops that we get some feedback to like this some within the numbers itself in in an integrated much faster

► 03:21:47

what's wrong with the with the jury system on Twitter why wouldn't that work I don't know why I want to work on I'm not saying we want to test that like we're testing is veriscope and I don't have a reason a compelling reason why we wouldn't do it within Twitter either I don't so we likely will but you know again we were company of so many resources finite resources finite people and then we need to prioritize and we've decided you may disagree with this decision but we decided that physical safety in the admission of off platform ramifications is critical for us and we need to be able to be a lot more practice in our enforcement which will lead to Stronger answers and we want we want to focus on the physical safety aspect and doxxing is a perfect example that has patterns that are recognizable and then we can move them I hear it and I just feel like you know what the conclusion I can come in the conversation is you're going to do what you think needs to be done I think what you're doing is wrong and ultimately just nothing's going to change

► 03:22:47

I got it you're going to you're going to try new technology is going to try and do the systems from the from where I see it I think you have an ideology diametrically opposed to mine I mean not an extreme degree I think they're people who are from work like I'm not conservative people who are who are probably think you know I'll say this to you are a symbol for a lot of them and so I can definitely respect you having conversation there are so many different companies that do things that piss people off you sitting right now I'm gonna conservatives why are you pointing all of their anger and you because you are here but you know ultimately I just feel like

► 03:23:19

I don't think there's any change I think you're on your path you know what you need to do and you trying to justify it and I'm looking at my Twitter is doing as very wrong and it's it's it's oppressive and ideologically driven and I'm trying to justify why you shouldn't do it but nothing's going to change my intention is to build a platform that gives as many people as possible option to freely Express themselves on that and Twitter is now going against what the US has developed over the United States if they want to come up with the United States Twitter like a solution one alternative that the government runs and they use it used free speech to govern that good luck good luck with that why don't you recognize almost insurmountable meaning of the dummies that are in charge of the United States government is why I said regulation to is scary

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terrible idea what's up but you know how I think it's important point out to that a lot of people don't realize you guys have to contend with prophets you have to be able to make money to pay your staff there's no like you'll get free money to run your company so aside from the fact that you have advertisers want to be the platform I imagine a lot of these companies are enforcing hate speech policy is because advertisers I want to be associated with certain things so that creates you know through advertisement cultural restrictions that's 100% the problem of these restrictions came down on on advertising and content creators that's where it comes from it all comes from from money it's why I just to be clear those can be segmented where they want to where they want to be placed certainly but the platform recognizes there's a huge blow back and they're losing money on YouTube

► 03:25:19

Stanley for breaking the rules and advertisers pull up the platform and you two didn't realize because they were breaking the role they just creepy dudes so people will also there were putting comments and so one of those Preposterous responses to that was that content creators going to be responsible for their comments will Edition a month well the problem with this like people like me is that I put out a lot of content and there's millions of views and it's impossible to moderate I'll melt on the other, and we don't moderate them at all YouTube and only so they've deleted all comments on videos with mine but you know I'm saying if you put a YouTube video on you have a bunch of people that's a bunch of racist things in your YouTube comment you could be held responsible and get a fuck you two player fight that they clarify that one recently they said the heater works but the first initial statement was it you were going to responsible for your comment and then I said

► 03:26:19

they qualify as just because there's going to be things that you can if you said Niger advertisers from

► 03:26:26

you look you know I I pointed out I think the Democrats are in a really dangerous position because outrage culture although it exists in all factions is predominantly on one faction and so when Trump comes out and says something really offencive you know grab them by the you know talking about the Trump supporters laugh they bought t-shirts that said it the people in the left Democrat types they got angry so what happens now you see Bernie Sanders is being dragged the media is looking for blood and they're desperate they're laying people off their dying and they will do whatever it takes to get those clicks I hope there's enough like you know it's enough to do with Twitter though I'm going to call if your Advertiser and say look what he's doing and you going to be like a weirdo idea and it's too bad cancelled all ads your money is right up there was a recognized Twitter YouTube face because of the platforms are worried money has to come from somewhere to pay people so you all have to realize you've got the press that salivating looking for that juicy story where they can accuse you of wrongdoing because it'll get him clicks don't make money and that means even though

► 03:27:26

you did nothing wrong with these comments it was just a creepy group of people who didn't break the rules of figured out of manipulate the system YouTube like you had to take the take that one that has pulled out YouTube lost money so you should then panics Sledgehammer comments just wipe them out that that happened anybody right we're in a really dangerous time with Sol and their defense so they have to deal with that and they have a bunch of pedophiles that are posting comments not what do you do about that what are you doing I put other than higher millions of people to moderate every single video that's put on YouTube which is almost impossible trying to break up bring up is that even if I wanted to say you know what we're going to have free speech what happens advertises back later even if you side mount it there going to be threatened to buy it and so the restrictions are going to come from whether or not you can make money doing it I don't know about that I think that that is changing and I think that is changing primarily because the internet if you look at what was acceptable in terms of people discussing that would get advertisement it was network television standards

► 03:28:26

now that's changing I mean if there's going to be a there's ads on the water yet but I put it out that have pretty extreme content it's because advertisers are changing their perspective. Do I don't think so they're shifting hard person shifting that's why this this podcast has ads sure sure I mean I don't think it's to the point where everyone's lost all ads but I love you think George Carlin will be allowed to do his bit today yes no way you would be able to do it listened their stuff like that on Netflix specials that are out right now things are changing it's just in the process of this transformation where people are understanding that because of the internet if you look at late night conversations how about Colbert saying that President Trump as Putin's dick in his mouth how about him saying that on television do you really think that would have been done 10 years ago they wouldn't have been 15 years ago impossible impossible to say on network

► 03:29:26

television just 10 years ago you Kevin Kevin Kevin Hart lost his Oscar hosting gig because I'm 10 years ago complained that he had said some homophobic things and they do it every two had subsequently apologize for before they ever said that count count dankula as a comedian comedian but I'm a comedian and I understand where things are going the the demise of free speech is greatly exaggerated that's what I'm saying I'm saying there's a lot of people out there that are complaining but the problem is not necessarily that there's so many people are complaining the promise that people are reacting to those complaints by the vast majority of the population is retinization that there is an evolution of free speech that's occurring in our culture in all cultures around the world but this is a slow process the one you're in the middle of it it's so almost like Evolution you're in the middle of it you don't think anything is happening but it's fucking happening with you I agree with you that the

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Jordy of people are like that's funny I don't care but the minority is kind of dictating things right now for now not even dictating things are just making a lot of noise and it that noise is having an effect on society was an attempt at right I don't think it was effective that's why we're still here were talking right now it was 1 attack and kicked us this is why it's important have this conversation right conversations like that for when you implement blockchain will the van is going to be a mobile Production Studios I can travel around when you things are getting crazy and I'm about to do video I can travel around when everything's happening but but I just want this up I want to see the blockchain version of Twitter where it said he exists that's what I want to say is going to happen whether we like it or not

► 03:31:26

picture of any last thoughts I just want to thank you Joe has been great and thanks for your thank you for always listening and I really appreciate you not I think you said that's a wrap folks no morire beatings good night everybody thank you everyone for tuning in to the show and thank you to our sponsors thank you to butcher box folks if you looking for good meat this is the way to go unless you looking for different kinds of me know if they don't have that but they have 100% grass-fed and finished beef free range organic chicken and Heritage breed pork shipped directly to your door delivered free free shipping anywhere in the lower 48 you can get twenty bucks off + free ground beef for life that's 2 lb of free 100% grass-fed ground beef in every order for the lifetime of your subscription go to butcherbox.com click on the banner and enter the discount code

► 03:32:26

Rogan at checkout thank you also to the cash app ladies and gentlemen the number one app and finance for a fucking very good reason and it provides you with the cash card download the apps to download the cash app brother from the app store or the Google Play Market for your cash card today and make sure when you download the cash app you enter the referral code Joe Rogan but all one word $5 will go to you that is 5 free dollars and better yet $5 will go to help our good friend Justin Brands fight for the Forgotten charity helping to build Wells for the pygmies in the Congo and last but not least we are brought to you by the host of Joe Rogan. Com Squarespace your answer do you have a question how do I make a website I got your answer motherfucker it's Squarespace and you can try it for free what free bitch go to squarespace.com go for a free trial then when you're ready to launch use the offer code

► 03:33:26

how to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain you can't go wrong it's the reason why Joe Rogan. Cam is hosted there it's easy to create a beautiful website free and secure roasting built-in search engine optimization in 24/7 award-winning customer support squarespace.com Joe for a free trial again use the offer code Joe and you will save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain all right so I hope everybody was happy with that episode well that's not possible Right but I hope more of you got your questions answered and your issues addressed and I just want to let you folks know all of you that I appreciate you even the most critical

► 03:34:14

this is a very busy doing something like this podcast is it's not the same as starting something like Twitter but it is in that I didn't expect it to become what it came and along the way there are hiccups and learning experiences and moments where I have to assess and readjust and and go back and do it again and that's what I did with this podcast and I hope we did it effectively and we're going to have them on again will have them on again in the future and we will figure out if there's any more to be done okay thank you to you all much love by by big kiss