#467 - Peter Giuliano

The Joe Rogan Experience #467 - Peter Giuliano

March 10, 2014

Peter Giuliano is a student of coffee, barista, director of the Specialty Coffee Symposium.

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anyone the u.s. NatureBox is busting up the vending machines Monopoly on your mid-day hunger naturebox.com Rogan we're also brought to you by LegalZoom and it's the last one I swear LegalZoom is a way to do all sorts of legal things online from the comfort of your home instead of actually having to go to a lawyer's office and schedule an appointment it's also a company that we have used Brian Redban Z used it Auburn used it to secure on it and and make it an LLC super easy to do things like that online they guide you through it they also have third-party independent attorneys that can connect you to if you ever get into a panic and think that you're going to jail cuz what you're doing sole legal and let you know LegalZoom is not a law firm but they can connect you argue with self-help services in the self-help services are very easy to follow and the past 12 years over 2 million Americans have use LegalZoom and they've saved a ton of money things like you start your own business

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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people are really really really in the shed and you sir are really really really into car faster and what's important about people like you is that people like me but I know nothing about it and I'm not going to do all that research it's just not going to happen just too much work I need someone like you out there that's obsessed with coffee that can bring me some coffee that smells like lemon I'm here for you what is the stuff that you brought you brought this Ethiopian Ethiopian coffee because okay at some point so I'm a happy guy right I've been working and coffee for years 25 years or more and when your coffee guy everybody asks you there coffee questions and the number one question that people start asking you is what's your favorite coffee you know everybody wants to know that so now most coffee people when they're asked that question Li little bit the way I lied was I would say

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that's like asking a parent who therefore favorite child is you know what I mean you can't play favorites etcetera but putting that aside most coffee people are affectionate about coffee from Ethiopia cuz that's where coffees from beautiful shit out it smells so good by the way what is the name of this particular blow you made it home it's called The Chef & The name of the town in and it is in coffee two coffee people yoga Chef his like that's the spot smells unbelievably famous the coffee smells like flowers

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and and then like lemons like lemon oil or something that's really unique if you taste coffee that smells and tastes like

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it's almost certain that it comes from Ethiopia because because of the variety they grow their because the way that they process it etcetera it makes it really special so this was roasted by a company in San Francisco called Wrecking Ball coffee and the coffee is called Ethiopia classic yoga Chef classic meanings yig

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r y r g side y r g a c h e f f e is in a weird thing we have to write it down to look at it to make sure it's right that that's one way to spell it there's like if you're still in your life and you look at signs they're all spelled a different way cuz it's actually in Amharic it's a different language and they and they just translated to English way so you can spell it there I've been involved in Internet okay here's another coffee commission involved in Ethiopian they pronounce it differently in a way that I can't actually pronounce it give it a shot. We can do that exactly

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What About Bob Crane goes into perfect Spanish pronunciation is only you know what you're taking a chance on being like already like a kind of label is a Crazy Coffee perks yet but if you could pronounce all the words at the end of pretentiousness level gets very risky coffee person people are afraid that you're going to be like a kind of douchebag about about about your coffee you know because on one hand people like that you take it seriously and and because you're trying to you trying to make you know Embrace something that super delicious right and you want it to be more delicious

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and better tasting and stuff like that and so that causes you to learn stuff about the geography of where coffee comes from all this weird trivia you know and and you start to learn about that stuff and it's good but at the same time it's very easy when you get really into something to start to alienate people you know any sort of you know when people can't

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talk about anything else and then they start to get kind of snobby about stuff but it's a struggle for coffee people all the time you know because what I know and I've learned in my many years of doing this thing is that especially in the morning you know people just want their coffee with you know all this stuff like that and we learn that and you know so I started as a barista I work for many many years has a Bristo behind the car behind the bar making people there coffee in the morning so do you really appreciate it when someone's a connoisseur like the difference between guys like I just want a cup of coffee and a guy is like what's your plans today who's really into it later in the day like all into what kind of coffee it is really particular everybody just different type of coffee they just want a freaking cup of coffee even even coffee Pros like me you know we dispense with all that stuff at that time when you you know you been there

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and wake up in the morning you don't know what's going on all you want is a cup of coffee and people to be nice to you for the first couple hours of your day usually most the time I don't have any time and I just want some sort of caffeine product I got I have on those little espresso things will you put those little capsules in there and you can sit down and press the button into a shot of espresso comes out well doesn't taste as good as an expresso convenient you know and and there's a lot of disadvantages to sing like that on the other hand I've tasted delicious coffee out of out of those if the coffee going in is is good if the machine is working right I mean there's all sorts of different kinds of machines expect you to know this is you don't manufacture these things but what is the plastic right is that what it is like others in a plastic yeah

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aluminum and stuff okay for the flavor when your heating the problem aluminum's pretty resistant to do stuff like that made make that metal working outside soda pop can engineered it to work it out so it's not an issue of what's in it so if you guys made coffee here today and you did it in a great way by boiling the water in a kettle and then you have a French press music about that is that your boy on the water the water is getting to 212 that's where it boils and then by the time you pour it in The French Press it's cooled off maybe it's 207-205-9052 205 degrees is where you should be throwing coffee

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guys like me get fired up over stuff like today is the first day of using what I have at home which is I think it's called brivo Breville and it's 80 the other button for french press and so this is the French press button so I assume okay get it right and this is brother yeah they do and and so the the French press button will I'm sure get it to 205 degrees we should put a thermometer in that bitch find out whether or not I better find out we need a thermometer driving and it's very important difference was going to say is the machines whether it's a pod machine or capsule machine like you're talking about or a mr. coffee type machine Black & Decker whatever all those kinds of coffee machine

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one of the big challenges with those things as if they don't get hot enough coffee at 180 degrees it's going to taste like crap and you know some amount of hot and if it's if it's the right amount of hot in between 195 and 25 right about 200° then it makes the coffee taste better literally changes the flavor that's coming out of the beans when it's hot enough to activate it right into hot is bad too hot too bad took a slice of it and then looked at that under microscope you see all the cellular structure of the coffee and it's like a sponge and inside the sponge is all the oils and sugars and fats and stuff that make really complicated of different chemicals in there

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that that you need to get out of the sponge you need to essentially rinse it out of the coffee to get in your cup and that's what it's all about now if you don't do that well enough you leave all the good tasting stuff in the coffee that sponge the coffee cell walls you know and it doesn't get in your cup and you're in your coffee doesn't taste very good and plus you've wasted all the good stuff you want to throwing it in the trash if the opposite thing happens if you extract too much out of the coffee if you squeeze that sponge Till It's Perfectly dry

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the last stuff to get extracted tastes kind of bitter and like Tanika. It doesn't it doesn't taste good it has a characteristic that we call over extracted and so that bitter 10 and comes from a prolonged exposure to hot water either the water being too hot or bring it for too long or like for example if you boiled coffee like they used to do in the cowboy days are like that will make the coffee taste bitter and accurate and offline because it's over extracted and that over-extraction is what creates tannins right well not tanning specific flavor its flavor taste in your mouth and that bitterness is from the Heat

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get the stuff that's like loose it was like right fruit it's right it's like right in the middle it's The Sweet Spot and so this organization that I work for they start to do some science about this and how to brew coffee properly and get the coffee to wear tasted best to the most people and they had thousands of people tasting different coffees you know and they determined what the perfect extraction of a cup of coffee was to most people in the in the world and then then they designed amount of extraction so I'm going to get technical on you okay so a hundred and I already told you a hundred ninety-five to 205 at the right temperature the extraction that you want to get its between 18 and 22% extraction now this is coffee geek stuff that nobody wants to hear but this is the kind of stuff that we talk to each other about and and so

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so like if you have a favorite coffee place where the bruises are like really good maybe the coffee taste really good chances are they know about that extraction window and they're trying to get the coffee within that extraction window so it tastes great if you exceed 22% and something close to 30% of the coffee is actually extractable you could get 30% of the material out of the coffee if you wanted if you totally squeeze the sponge dry but 18 to 22% is where it tastes good for this coffee and to Two Brothers coffee or something you didn't want to wait for me we know a little bit but when it comes to the certain things like that it good times of extraction and temperature does it vary

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depending on what kind of coffee you have likes this is the only the Opium coffee what do you have a different if it was a Jamaican when when copy Pros sort of start to work with a coffee will experiment with different temperatures different kinds of traction different coarseness of grind to try that to try to get it right yeah we called it in so if we're like if if if a if you're with a group of coffee people and there's a new coffee you'll ask somebody did you dial it in and that means that means I did you get a tasting the way it should be tasting what are the variables how much is the spectrum of variance between what's like an extreme connection on each end of act like Brew X temperatures in what's the difference OK Gifford

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there's a lot of different beautiful clean clean floral coffee Hawaiian stuff lately about this coffee is it super fragrant in a very unusual way beautiful hand. So anyway so there's all these different ways to brew coffee so you've got a French press here there is a pour-over coffee a drip coffee that you would change phone might be talking about an arrow

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and each one of those has a different deal so like in this french press coffee will steep for a while sort of like tea and then you press it down and whatever and how long do you usually sleep at 4 to 6 minutes is kind of a window over work then because the Clover that crazy computer as coffee machine that cooked it very quickly Oakley rights have fine finer coffee which changes the course then it can you can Brew it can extract really quickly so that's why I like this in an espresso machine it's ground like to a powder video of other Clover machine just you can see what we're talking about no genius guys were coffee nerds sorry from Stanford University and they figured out this

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in which costs some upwards of $10,000 and never thought about buying one until I watch someone do it and use it and I was like oh this might be the fucking coolest thing ever look for a real coffee dork and then I found out that Starbucks bottom off I have those sons of bitches and I don't even see them I never seen them in a Starbucks well Starbucks you fucking cell I'm on my way I would be totally willing to buy one of those and just put it in the office I will see if I can try it it happened yeah but I mean I used to have one in my office this is this is incredibly variable if you've never seen it is really beautifully constructed it looks like a giant piston like a car engine piston and you pour coffee in it in the water in it and you stir it was like a little whisk and then dial in the coffee based on the known recipes for that coffee

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exactly and so and it was made really fancy you could communicate with other machines and you could send the recipe for one machine to another coffee when she's going to take over and at the end it's really unusual it leaves this hockey hockey hockey of grinds at the top of the machine and then you have the squeegee which is kind of an elegant way to deal with that little problem of what would you do with the coffee grinds and it come up that pissed him yet but it comes up like a cheeseburger it's so weird like a windshield washer squeegee thing it's fucking bad-ass and so on the

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so the reason that can happen so quickly is cuz you can use fine coffee because it's got that hydraulic piston the two pushes it up that's incredibly strong it's got these these at this metal filter that the coffee grounds kind of sit on top of it so it's a quasi pressurized situation somewhere in the same room is as they are talking about something similar and by the way the Aeropress is essentially a home $50 version of that and it just as good and yeah I thought the Clover then Jesus Christ when was we save ourselves 11 Grand whatever it is that was really design for like a coffee service and the fact that the amount of support them investing money to make something like that design it steampunk

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well there's all these coffee machines out there and and this is a recently designed machine and it's got its like these glass tubes and Bubbles and you know all this crazy shit what is the benefit of that machine actually works on a very similar principle to all these things but they're all coffee machines are designed to make it easier to do what I said before the the yeah that's that's it that's a steampunk so that's that all each of those who see a pirate ship brew coffee

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and now interesting the computer and all these all these variables wow you know so recently died of the Clover too much pressure actually how much is that that's a good question I don't know the answer to that but something else which is these machines all they do is make it easier to brew coffee like this so you got you got some pretty sophisticated equipment in your kitchen this is all what he's doing right here this is the right stuff when I guess is wild man just makes me feel like a scientist oh yeah and then the other one

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the one in the middle is kind of getting ready to have some coffee in the coffee those little Pistons are there to sort of be that filters of the coffee too complicated machine and then I would say so weeks ago here in Los Angeles a battle between a guy called Nick show next show is this is the guy who he's one of the owners of this coffee company who hosted this coffee were drinking and then the inventor of that machine yet at the steampunk went head-to-head and have like a man versus machine kind of thing and Nick was just using very simple little Brewer they poured the water on just totally manual and then the other guy was was was was Manning the steampunk and they were like having his head to head where they each had to brew six different coffees for these three judges and they couldn't

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see what they were drinking all this stuff and now that the so the result was that the steampunk machine one by our hair it was essentially a tithe at the in the point is that you can you can make coffee delicious by being really good at mastering the variables knowing what you're doing what grind looks right knowing how hot the water is etcetera or you can trust that stuff to a machine and that's what machines do they they just get the water right every time they get the they get the what we call the turbulence like how much she gets stirred right every time and if you can replicate something very precisely again and again and again the coffee is going to be really good I get a sense though that you are a purist and the you prefer to use manual equipment almost like if you drove a car you'd want a manual gearbox

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I told him I don't own the coffee machine in my house and I don't fit I have essentially the same setup that you have a water boiler to boil the water for me a good grinder and no she have a good grinder in there and up some Homestyle pouring you know I use basically very cheap $30 for I have a French Press Paper filter though just cuz I prefer the flavor of bubbly surface and get kind of like a little phone mine's like yeah you still get that paper filter you notice okay so we're tasting it now can you taste you feel like there is you can still taste the coffee

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body or aftertaste and after taste technical coffee tasting terms and somebody is the feeling the texture of the coffee in your mouth or aftertaste is the flavor of the coffee that remains in your mouth once you're gone once it's gone

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and after taste especially is really important because you drink coffee in the morning you're driving to work you still have that flavor of coffee in your mouth if that's good then that's great then you get you get an extra 20 minutes out of your cup of coffee it's a bonus if it's bad if it's bad flavoring you feel like you need a mint then that's like a bad aftertaste and so you either coffee you like feeling in your mouth you like that flavor in your mouth you like after case that's good you're brewing coffee the right way

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for me I I just tend to want to move on to the next flavor whatever it is whether it's more such a new level you went with a paper filter to remove aftertaste so you can move on to the next flavor can you buy some seltzer water or something like that what do you have to brush your tongue or anything like that in between people that scrape their tongues man that's the end of the pool we can see the bottom your coffee geeking out the most hardcore whatever so this is a very delicious coffee and you completely black. You don't fuck around with coffee filters or sugars or I mean generally cost

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dinosaurs usually coffee with mixed with grass-fed butter and MCT oil you can find about this from this is a Hawaii Roasters right Rusty's Rusty's Hawaiian and so I found out about this from this dude Dave asprey he calls it Bulletproof Coffee in her and apparently the guy name Rob Wolfe he was the first guy to figure it out what it is is coffee mix with grass-fed butter and MCT oil and then it's Blended and the idea of what is MCL medium chain triglycerides

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Palm oil's and mostly coconut oils he take that they spinning in a centrifuge in extracted I don't know the exact process but it's essentially healthy fats and the benefit of that because it's all connected to the fat to get serve a slow burn a slow-release hopped up on coffee all day in a bunch of different kinds you right in that boat right into the Rocks it's interesting there was something you said earlier like as we getting started you were talking about at the top of the show you something like that Buffalo and we don't know if it's if it's true or not but this is just that in ancient Ethiopia Ethiopian Warriors would take the fruits of the coffee so coffee grows like a fruit it's got you may have seen pictures it looks like a cherry and the two beans or

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flat up against each other like the pits of the Cherry but around that is like a fruit layer like a sweet fruit layer the fruit taste sort of like it's kind of slimy but it tastes like a mix of watermelon and Jasmine and then there's a kind of a tough leathery skin outside the legend says that the Ethiopians would take that fruit and make a ball with animal fat and some stories say butter and Other Stories say like like like cow fat and they would make balls out of them and put them in their their packs and then just before a battle these Warriors would eat this this like PowerBar thing and it was like fat from the from the from the animal fat to give you energy and and kind of and then that Sugar from the coffee fruit to give that blast of energy and then pick

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caffeine together now some people say that this is like an invented story other people say that that yeah but no this is what the ancient Ethiopians actually did before before flight fighting about what is known as the engine Ethiopians were known as especially intense Warrior ball right away that's why do we need to try when he said when you said coffee and butter that's what I thought of his is is that kind of thing those D's coffee balls with butter maybe maybe that's what they're trying to kind of this is used for a long time but there's also a sentence used it with some mixed with this Yak butter and tea to make this creamy sort of concoction I like what I like mixing it with the butter and MCT oil is like a long way

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lasting effect of the caffeine your body has to break down all those fats and serve Blended in connected with caffeine you don't get it as a big burst like I drink this stuff is I haven't drinking black coffee with nothing attached to it just goes right in your system and you can you could feel yourself like popping up how do you avoid heart attacks I don't know I mean I'm just kidding obviously but but you do get a rush from this is some strong caffeine coffee this is some strong stuff and it's really uniquely delicious yeah I'm kind of shocked my favorite coffee lately is the stuff called Rusty's Hawaiian I've been drinking this lot later STFU

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so good stuff is good I just said something I really love about coffee from the Big Island I don't know what it is but I'd first tried Hawaiian was Hawaiian Roasters is the red bag that says somebody told me about it you like dude you got to try Hawaiian coffee and so I got to hold this stuff for a while back and this is my all-time favorite coffee cuz it's like really sort of a dark Rich taste very very different from this. This Ethiopian stuff started there how did people take the plants and plant them other places that would happen Pharisees that's what is it called that has a name though it's like it says ferry from Maui 94

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underrated copy okay so good yeah but this is this is part of the story I can tell you I can you were asking about coffee coming from Ethiopia Etc okay so yeah okay this is for the really tiny really tiny and so what happened was it's from the forests of Ethiopia on the on either side of what's called The Rift Valley it's it's where it's where the human species evolved it's where we evolved over there and coffee of all in the same place so which is crazy to begin with and consumed it somehow but then the somehow probably by the people on the other side of the Red Sea and what's now Yemen which was then called Arabia Felix

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this is like in about a 1100 they said they said wait a second they got some some of the Ethiopian slaves brought some coffee

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seeds over there and they started planning coffee in what's now Yemen

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and they started growing it and it turned into a big deal and they were the first ones that actually exported it out of the out of the area so the biggest the main port at that time in Yemen was called mocha so you've heard you know at a cafe mocha is coffee is called a job reference to this one port in Yemen I'm still there it's called and started adding chocolate to coffee that wasn't from there to try to make it taste like it was from there without a coffee from their heart because it's Yemen you know and so strong

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Hoosier Lottery wild check came in on a Magic Carpet El crazy dance around the politically let it go to the dangerous volatile but that's unfortunate that sounds like it's only a few plants and then they use those to be the parents of all the the the coffee in Yemen and that they would want it exported It Anyway then but then if this is in history they were growing coffee they're exporting it other people said wait a second we want in on this coffee deal because you're making money selling coffee but they had they had a penalty of death if you got seeds if you took seeds out of Yemen at that time you know you got caught exporting fertile coffee seeds you could be put to death it was that valuable valuable that's incredible and this is a time where it went like the ink

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the Dutch were fighting over the Dutch East Indies as the Spice Islands you know people was trying to get some colonies going to export these cash crops and they sell coffee the potential cash crop some Dutch spies successfully got some coffee out of Yemen and they planted it on and they just won the war with the English over the Dutch East Indies and they planted the coffee that they stole from Yemen in what's now Indonesia on the island of java wow and they they did great coffee and that's why we still call Coffee Java and mocha Java places that made mostly coffee in the world the port of mocha in Yemen and the island of java in the Dutch East Indies started from

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ordering anything that they were just like letting grow so so then yeah so the one point the Dutch and the French signed a treaty and the gift the Dutch gave one coffee tree to the French one Coffee Tree in the French in like got in France they built a house like a greenhouse just hold this plant and it was the first it was the first that Greenhouse in Europe

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Travis Greene housing cost blank special and they used cuttings from that plant to plant they wanted to plant some stuff in the West Indies in the Caribbean they want to plant some coffee the French did to for their colonies and so this one guy named Gabriella he was responsible for bringing the coffee from France to Martinique end on the journey and so they were stuck in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean ocean with this plant keep it alive one plant with the parent of most the coffee in Central America South America Etc

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impact of this because all the genetic diversity that was in Ethiopia all the thousands of different coffee brownies that were in Ethiopia imagine how that got narrow down from getting brought from Ethiopia man in the first place then whatever plants does Dutch spies stole to put the coffee in Java then that one plant that went to that went to the new world they went to France first and then to the new world that's why they call it a genetic bottleneck so all the copy outside of Ethiopia is kind of siblings to one another that's incredible and that and that's a problem for us because if there's a disease that that one genetic variety of coffee is is susceptible to it can wipe out the whole coffee deal it's so incredible that one particular area of the world was the only place where the stuff was growing and now it's considered to be a completely World Wide beverage

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they're kind of pissed off about that and they're like cuz you know everybody says they identify coffee with Columbia a fucking one in Ethiopia you go to Ethiopia that the different kinds of flavors that you can get in coffee from Ethiopia is crazy compared to anything anywhere else Village in Ethiopia has their own variety coffee that they grow traditionally how many different varieties are there well that's a good question we don't know completely they're still doing their scientists out in Ethiopia right now trying to count all the different coffee varieties and the estimation is that there are somewhere between three and five thousand different varieties of coffee going

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Ethiopia and outside of Ethiopia there's like 30 it's it's crazy that's not so every legit coffee connoisseurs like a big fan of Ethiopia Ethiopia Ethiopia wow that's amazing man so this particular blend that we had is from Ethiopia and what are the variables in Ethiopian coffees like what's this is sorry to say the name again how you say it again this year and this year did Chef is a fruity sort of Flora one right but I was soon with thousands of different variety right you get a broad spectrum of different flavors so in so just north of yoga Chef is a kind of larger area and actually you're the chef is within an area called

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sidama is the name of the region we call coffees when there's adamo's Sosa dominoes are similar to know yeah they have a honey like what's a good name for once want to try one of those today and he said i d a m o v names that you get beside sidamo will often be even wash the coffee itself and and so you can get Kiki about that but the washing process changes the way the flavor is

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washing black coffee being important I can explain that process to you if you want me to it's all about how I told you that coffee beans are like two seeds inside of a cherry off because if you don't get the fruit off it can mold and spoil and tastes yucky so the whole challenge with coffee is to is to do something with that fruit layer before it spoils of for any kind of fruit you pick it and then decide what to eat the ancient Ethiopians get if they just picked it and they said it on the ground or on a mat to dry and then in the the coffee would serve turn into shrivel up and or raisin and when it was totally dry they found it in a mortar and pestle and the seeds would separate from the dried-up husk and then you could roast the seeds and drink the coffee

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so that was the original method of doing coffee but when they moved coffee from Ethiopia which is very warm and dry and they could be could grow it in Indonesia in Central America but grow fine but when they tried to dry it it was tougher because there's more rain there it's more humid and the coffee would mold and get musty and taste crappy sewing set in Costa Rica they invented a different thing and what they did was they ran it through a machine would take strip off the the the the leathery skin desk yeah well the leathery skin but it would leave this slimy fruit you know and it's sort of like you know if you eat a peach and some of the it sticks to the seed and that's exactly what happens to Coffee it sticky fruity stuff is sticking to the seed and you got to get it off so what they did was they let it ferment for about a day

► 00:49:25

if you let that stuff from and in a bucket or whatever a tub for about a day then it fits it loosens itself through magic it's like amazing it's it's bacterial action and yeasts and stuff act on that stuff to dissolve it and then you can wash it away with water just rinse is right that's what process that's what processing and then sticky slimy sugary stuff is rinsed away then it's very easy to dry the coffee in the sun it drives in a few days and then you can husk it and send it for roasting so there's a difference between drying it out and then roasting it must be dried out first and then it must be roasted later and those two processes those two major processes are we call him either dry processing and wet processing or the natural method and a washed method so washed and and wet processing of the same thing

► 00:50:25

and dried and natural is the same thing as changing climates in moving coffee plants to other geographic location presented a lot of pretty unique challenges absolutely for coffee if they were doing in the 19th century it seems so different than anything else which is of also fruit that you would grab me you just take the complicated things that surround the seeds to unlike most fruits most fruits aren't cultivated for their seeds is there a outside of the CD isn't the abstract at the outside doesn't have some sort of nutritional benefits sure it well it's I mean it's it's a fruit it's got sugar and and it's got to taste like I always say it's like a mixture of watermelon and Jasmine really are beautiful it sounds delicious delicious coffee fruit well you can the problem is that if they copy doesn't really grow

► 00:51:25

around here these filed some places they keep the fruit that they took off and they drive at 2 and you can make sort of like a beverage out of that by soaking that beverage in water treating it like tea and they do that in Ethiopia and then yeah man they call it has Shara in the end they call it Keisha in I mean that the Ethiopia Keisha in Yemen and so it's another beverage that comes from coffee and it's sweet it's got plenty of caffeine yeah and no more popular NASCAR cascara that's the Spanish.

► 00:52:25

there's other Coffee Company sell it it's kind of satisfying the same way that the actual being itself is there more caffeine in the fruity outer layer or is there more caffeine in the bean itself but very stupid and there's coffee and caffeine in all parts of the the coffee plant leaves everything looks like it's about well depends on the variety of coffee but generally they are about the only reason why I know they really attached that burrow is there a variation

► 00:53:25

in the caffeine content of beans from one part of the world to the other because I've seen something called Kicking horse is a strong kicking horse coffee from the claims to have excessive amount of caffeine in it what they might be talking about is there's another species of coffee so so there's the species that we've been talking about me feel paean all that stuff is called Cafe Arabica is the name of that Spa part of Africa and its called to fake Nefera but we caught robust have you ever heard of Rebecca from West Africa it doesn't taste as good generally it's my taste like burnt popcorn popcorn taste in it

► 00:54:25

Diner in White Plains New York has a lot more caffeine than than Arabica deaths but it also has a bunch of other chemicals that don't taste very good so some people I've seen people talk about high you know high caffeine coffee and they're just using robust in it to sort of the sort of amp up the the the the the caffeine Love by something floating around. But you know I mean obviously caffeine is an important part of the other I wouldn't be nearly as a line looks to be nearly as long as it's true

► 00:55:25

after that what you satisfy the caffeine you know if part you start drinking coffee for what it taste like and so and so people that are focused on on coffee flavor 10 2D emphasize the jolt part in and emphasized the orange why does the plant produce caffeine the first place why do we know that alkaloid is the is the is the class of chemical the caffeine is and and there's General plants seem to Tiffany's alkaloids to drive away probation yeah I like insects and stuff like that the coffee so fucking hard back insect that a micro-level soap

► 00:56:25

better Apple or called I feel bromine so it'll make you your heart you know when I talk to a veterinarian about this once and food problem with with the dogs if they eat a bunch of chocolate and the Heart pounds so fast they have a heart attack from the from the tribe on the I feel bromine and it's like caffeine in in in a people say that that the chocolate has caffeine that the active thing is actually feel bromine which is this so it's very similar it's a stimulant that works on dogs in a different way that works on humans representation of Love of writing is very similar

► 00:57:25

I can feel it more than that I was reading today online about chocolate the chocolate is going to be extremely rare in the future because of our our over-consumption chocolate we consume so much chocolate they can't keep up with the production the demand can't keep up keep up with a production product project problem the coffee does so no problem and and and same to South America like poppies indigenous to Africa cook hours from Latin America

► 00:58:10

and then it's been spread all over the world has a narrow genetic base having all these tropical crops have these have these problems the other problem is climate change the climate gets warmer these that the suitable kind of environment for these very climate vary temperature in tolerant plants Narrows diseases spread more easily etcetera at the problem if you can't be grown in the United States in California and Santa Barbara house there coffee delicious

► 00:59:10

it's because he's he's in a very unique kind of microclimate there there's actually if you go to his farm it can be warmer at night on this farm and it is during the day because it's beautiful it's amazing Spiez place you should you should go to this farm he also grows amazing fruits like got these these crazy Australian lime called finger limes that are look like caviar inside cherimoyas have you ever heard of cherimoyas are very rare tropical fruit no never heard of that what's the name of his place good that's pretty cool that he's the guy that figures out how to grow coffee in California how does he has there so I'm here and I think it came from in LA and he got into agricultural bought this phone and it was an avocado Farm but then he started planting dragon fruit

► 01:00:08

these finger limes cherimoya all the stuff and he grows coffee there

► 01:00:15

she just like a really good fruit grower and he cries coffee and he was telling me recently he's I mean this coffee that he has planted the varieties of coffee including this one he's got that growing their etcetera and it's just now coming into my coffee's you plant a coffee seed you don't start to harvest coffee from between three and seven years after you planted so he's just now that is fascinating you should grow coffee you love it so much why you keep a cholo in Santa Barbara and let the party begin I would love it I've always travel too much to like at a farm so I mean I've spent the last

► 01:01:13

15 or so years just traveling to Coffee Farms all over the world working with coffee Farmers to get their quality better and and and kind of learn about all this stuff because that's kind of a new phenomenon to is is coffee roasting companies that are interacting more directly with farmers and getting you know getting that quality thing really worked out understanding what makes coffee grade Federal most Farmers that are growing coffee they are they doing it just for a profit or there's other places where you go in there real Artisans is there a broad variation it's mostly the first thing because most of the going back to the history so the Dutch in Java and they basically enslave the local population to work on their on their coffee Farms this is in the you know in the $0.18

► 01:02:13

because everybody was all the European powers were trying to get colonies everywhere so you know colonies the Spanish doing their colonies in Central America the French doing their colonies and in West Africa the English trying to colonize Kenya the the the the Dutch were colonized East India and they kind of Enslaved the local population to grow coffee and so and so that was sort of a dark. In world history and unfortunately coffee with part of that but since then so then you know the enlightenment happened democracies started to spread around the world but still many of these countries that were former former colonies were had property problems like Central America and stuff like that the place that I started first started working with coffee Farmers was in Nicaragua and in Nicaragua was formerly a colony and

► 01:03:13

and and had that problem but then they had the revolution date they dissolved a lot of these big farms and gave little Parcels of land to a lot of people that know that used to work on it so here you have all these people that used to work on the van that now have their little tiny Farm of them of their own and that's cool because then they've got another got their own business that far I'm going the problem is it's pretty tough in any country what it's United States are in the garage or anywhere to make a small farm profitable and so in many many parts of the world you've got small farmers that are just trying to get by in on put food on their plate and so one of the coffee that special coffee companies can do is get engaged with those farmers and try to get the celebrate the product get people to pay more for it because it tastes really delicious and it becomes a better livelihood for

► 01:04:13

Farmers all all across the world so your friend in Santa Barbara what was his name and what's the name of good land Organics he's just a guy who loves coffee and besides I'm going to try to grow some stuff in Santa Barbara it was a challenge to do you like these unusual fruit kind of takes a person with a deep commitment to make something like this take place otherwise it's a pretty significant investment in time and effort before you reap any rewards those people in El Salvador and Guatemala in Panama in Brazil I know if I know it's like amazing farmers and all these places who are like

► 01:05:05

focused on like making the best imaginable coffee so now when you work with these people save so many contacts you and say Peter I don't know the fuck I'm doing come down here and help me grow some bitchin coffee what it what is your your process I could say a guy from Hawaii calls yet says I want to grow some coffee I don't know what I'm doing these kind of unusual I mean usual situation cuz the University of Hawaii is involved in they can actually call at the University of Hawaii and get something they wouldn't just busted for cocaine and there's lots of chores lots of people out there in the US government through usaid is out there trying to give give good sport to these guys the first thing you do she teach him to take the coffee

► 01:06:04

an amazingly and some of your listeners me may have had this experience I've had this experience you go to wherever Nicaragua Costa Rica Peru whatever place is famous for its coffee and going to the hotel and they got Nescafe in the you know instant coffee in the restaurant or whatever and it's because of these places people don't drink the coffee Big Grow the coffee but they don't drink it and it's crazy that's a weird totally weird because that's interesting so what part of the country yet it is in Brazil to some extent where they drink coffee as much as they is they is the export of the same issue the rest of South America where they have very limited to genetics and

► 01:07:04

more than one because Brazil so much bigger butt and in general but and all these countries by the way are aware of this problem in there trying to diversify the genetic so do they contact you through the coffee website specialty coffee Association of America

► 01:07:29

about starting in 2000 or so we we we in our group the worst affiliated with called the coffee quality Institute put have this program called coffee court so they like the Peace Corps for coffee people and guys like me would wood would sign up and volunteer for 2 weeks to serve in a coffee farming community and if we had a scale with marketing skill or or accounting or tasting might my skill with tasting so I would go down I would teach a coffee cooperative in El Salvador speak Spanish how to taste their own coffee and taste it like we do you know look for things like sweetness and flavor and Aroma and stuff like that and just that is like extremely powerful because of your running a coffee for him and you didn't you know how to taste it like your buyers going to taste it then you can say all right this tastes better I'm going to do this

► 01:08:29

I'm going to grow it this way I'm going to try it this way I'm going to ferment it this way etcetera what are the variables involved in changing the flavor of coffee is it just climate or is it the soil content or is it something you add to the soil the way you water them what you do what most the biggest thing is the climate and a lot of that is determined by altitudes remember misses misses on Folgers what was the lady commercial she used to say Mountain grown Folgers coffee likes to be at high altitudes so in general the higher the altitude the farm is the better the coffee

► 01:09:08

and then but at far has no control over the outs to their their Farm but what they can control is how much shade that the the coffee gets so they plant trees next to the coffee to actually provide some shade for it really should have coffee and I like oak trees or some shit yeah yeah usually it's a different there different they're like Latin American indigenous something that large leaves shady and sometimes at the fruit tree so they can get as well okay so he grows is avocado trees and then sandwiches them in between exactly so the deal is

► 01:09:53

the coffee now shaded coffee so copy of volved under other trees it's called an understory shrub it naturally likes to be protected by the trees however if you take it out and put in the full sun it'll be more productive it'll produce a lot more coffee but in general that coffee won't be as good so far farmer has to like figure out the benefit you know if you put sand in Shea the coffee will taste better but it won't be as productive so he has to sort of balance and that's that's what happens in coffee all the time you know it's like the better you make it taste the less there is of It kind of thing into a farmer is always trying to make that Balancing Act between having his farm be more productive versus having the quality be higher the ultimate taste expression it what it what is the the move to get forget about no money involved I don't know Financial reward you're only trying to achieve the greatest taste ever what's the what's the way to do that

► 01:10:53

start with a variety of coffee that's known for being really good tasting so these different varieties coffee that we talked about some of them taste really good some of them maybe or more disease-resistant and don't taste as good because of that so you choose a good good variety to start with the disease resistant coffees don't taste as good as the that's a good thing cuz he's a specifically are they getting season and you may have heard about it actually big deal right now it's called coffee rust and it's a fungal disease he leaves get this powder on them that looks exactly like rust makes all the leaves fall off in the copy plant she was like oh no that's a bark Beetle Bug looks like that in that you know these these crops can be susceptible particularly

► 01:11:52

what specific where's is coffee rust liquid is the is it all over the world or is it all of the world except it doesn't occur really in in Ethiopia so there's some sort of natural control happening all due respect if you were real coffee connoisseur Ethiopia the spot for the strongest flavor flavor and because it's the OG I think so you know not to qualify that too much I mean there is amazing coffees from Central America Colombia's from the most incredible coffees and then I know why I just said I really enjoyed coffee from Hawaii and it just seems to me to have a very different taste as

► 01:12:52

and then coffees within Hawaii to can taste very different right there and then it's got altitude you can when you go up there man that's the biggest challenge in in Hawaii I used to know some people that manage to Coffee Farm in Molokai which is a smaller Island not as much out to the coffee wasn't as good so that's interesting there's a place in in Hawaii great great coffee Mountain thunder on the big island really delicious I'll get in there but anyway

► 01:13:33

but in general coffee from islands like like Hawaii Jamaica places like this they've got a kind of a unique characteristic you might like coffee from from Indonesia from Papa New Guinea us four stars Indonesia and probably getting you know I really enjoy coffee but until this conversation I'm not full yet well you know I mean I knew nothing I really like Brian and show them other options if they want to go over there and hey we need to fix our flavor profile besides

► 01:14:33

well okay so you can either shave the coffee or not you can you can you can easy way that a farmer can change the quality there coffee is how ripe it gets so it's coffee gets riper it gets sweeter obviously but you don't want it to be too sweet or else it'll get like overly sweet and also get this kind of rotten character so figuring out darling and there was a farmer I work with in El Salvador who like cars super focused on how ripe she was going to pick her coffee and she whined up figuring out this this is Kiki and amazing is that if she let the coffee get half of the coffee get to get ripe to where it was the color of blood

► 01:15:19

I'm sorry right light burgundy kind of color and then half of the coffee cherries get to where they were the color of blood like bright red like this those together it was the perfect flavor wow what a dork and she dialed in but she's just like they did a couple years ago cuz she's become V Rockstar of in the coffee world that's so fast like I said when you sat down I love people that are really in the shed when someone gets really into something as you are in the coffee is very infectious like you know I want to like to start trying all these different flavors now but I don't want to be hopped up on my fucking my non caffeine all day project 5 cups of the show in space it out a little bit it's really good coffee shop all the time how do you feel about a place

► 01:16:19

a chain like a big Chamberlain have to mention any names but one of those big chains it's all sort of you know generic coffee like these that you talking about Starbucks when you see these fucking things are popping up all over the place now. Well let me tell you a story so I started in coffee in San Diego that was running a coffee shop in the I started in 87 right so I was a barista in the early 90 and 1994 were in this coffee shop in San Diego and we got where that Starbucks is going to start opening stores in San Diego and every freak out like oh my God we're done we might as well you know they're going to they're going to drive some of the grant that the year that Starbucks showed up

► 01:17:00

was the busiest year that we had and every year after that it got busier and the greats of the great thing that Starbucks at done at Starbucks is you know that they started in the 70s in Seattle bunch of guy that really likes coffee and they just they just figured out how to grow this business

► 01:17:22

deep caught in many ways they taught the world how to drink coffee drink coffee drink coffee in the morning like before I would go to work or you know I got to go to Dunkin Donuts in twinkles working on construction job sites guys are good to bring back coffee for everybody but it was like going to a coffee shop and buy a coffee in the middle of day that that's sort of Starbucks shifted people's mentality caffeine is in a Starbucks and so and so and so and stuff they got shots all over the place but it's not that delicious

► 01:18:13

Santa Vesta it's well I mean which I use all the time by the way I'm not a hater I buy Starbucks. No problem and if you were going to look for a very specific Gourmet type of coffee that's not where you go

► 01:18:42

it's not a bad for the coffee cup of coffee but do you want to go really want to have some of this stuff and have it this way you can't wait to go to a Starbucks store because it may be a dark roast and that's it I will say though that I've been to Starbucks got access to awesome coffees and they do have that but they do that it's not in every store right right right now in and they're starting to you may have seen it on the news they're designing different stores that you different things and and need to have a wide variety when you buy the Bags Unlimited small light stuff that they should you store coffee we put it in the freezer that bad

► 01:19:42

depends it can be bad if your freezer stinks and you don't you know you don't feel the bag of well enough one and the other problem is like right now we took that we took the the coffee out and got him to room temperature in your coffee mug that's in the freezer out and put anything it gets all wet on the outside then you got that problem you know in general we don't tell Pete we generally encourage people not to put in the freezer just in just drink it fast okay so I will say that if I was on if I was in Alaska or something you know and I could only get a shipment of coffee once every 6 months I would freeze it but I don't I don't you should essentially do it almost like you buy vegetables you should buy bread so you should get it and between the time that it's dried and the between time that it's roasted and then you draw

► 01:20:42

how much time should take place between the time it's roasted in the time you drink it so the dry it's it's essentially it's good for how long what does Drive in Nicaragua or whatever then it's usually good for about a year a year and that's good because it's about once a year you know copy copy Harvest happens once a year they dry it all to get it together they stabilize it by drying and then they ship it to Roasters in the US then once you get it to a roaster how long after is roasted should you drink it and does it matter it should you brew it and doesn't matter how it stored then usually the window after roasting is about 2 weeks 2 weeks only that's it that's crazy and Rose to order yeah and then so that's why you know that's a good coffee roasting company

► 01:21:42

but I like this one it says it says when it was roasted right there so that's a date on there it was Rosa just couple of days ago yeah that's how you do it huh and this is from Wrecking Ball Wrecking Ball where is this company in San Francisco San Francisco via VIA it's kind of a cool company to the the two couple owns this company she's like a kind of legendary Roasters and coffee for a long time and and he is like a pretty famous Barista guy and they got together and they got kind of a be there kind of a power couple in coffee. Sounds amazing I'm going to buy some minutes on the you buy it online tonight website online and So when you buy it online do they roast it when you order it

► 01:22:42

all out it was my friend has a coffee company called caveman coffee and they when you order it from caveman coffee, what is a roast it as you order at school that's the only way to do it right roasted on it sounds like it's important you know to bring you today that made the difference between a unique flavor and it's it's different it's Unique and in a weird I expected way you know I really really like it. I like the smell of it too man what is a bean smell like they have a unique smell so you should get a little bit of a whiff of that of that has been kind of why don't they make incense out of this shit I know right so good work with an airline to try to get their coffee tasting better and how to do that

► 01:23:42

you wouldn't smell a little bit better in there that was the best thing that they could do with this so that you just used it as coffee potpourri exactly that's interesting well that's a good move cuz you know when you smell the Grimes smells good you could open up a Folgers in his crap but you know that smell of non roasted like the smell of brown things you know have you know. All smile brown bread baking all these things chocolate reactions in science

► 01:24:42

when heat turns food Brown taste good it certainly does it so it's it's fascinating thing I try eating a piece of raw steak it really doesn't have the upgrade the best flavor to it but God damn it's got that crossed on the outside of it and cut through a fan of taste and flavors and I think it's sort of an unsung art form that people figured out how to cultivate different tastes and flavors and all sorts of foods in in in cooking I became a big fan of cooking I can't I don't really cook very well but I became a big fan of the art form of cooking for a while when I heard watching Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations shop and then and becoming friends with him and getting to know him and talk to him about shaft is going to a restaurant with him which is what was one of the coolest fucking experiences of all-time amazing it's like you know playing a basketball with Michael Jordan or salad and you hanging out at a restaurant with Anthony Bourdain early but I developed a respect for the art form from him

► 01:25:42

I'm watching his show the art form of cooking and I started considering it in a different light instead of thinking like it's nice when people cook good food all that taste good I want to eat that right instead I start thinking of it as art is Art Works no different than a song no different than a a stand-up comedy sketch or a cup of coffee if the art in the creative the creative literally creative cuz you creating I mean you're growing in your ear influencing their actual finished product yeah it's it's a sort of an overlooked aspects of creativity isn't it absolutely people it's nice to hear you talkin like that because God is in coffee if we start to talk about how we think of coffee is an art form lot of times people are like come on you always looking to call bullshit bullshit too much but it's a good thing to call bullshit cuz there's a lot of bullshit out there but it's not a good thing to call bullshit about people's passions I think it's more interesting to observe does passion Center

► 01:26:42

find out what it is and if I listening to surface-level I wasn't really in the flavors and I didn't you know have that sort of transition in the way I thought about flavors because of cooking right I probably wouldn't think about it that much either sit down and talk to a guy like you obviously is dedicated incredible amount of time to this passion then that's when it becomes infectious yeah I can't understand it and that's the way I you know I and a lot of my colleagues think about it is is like how can we make the flavor or just kind of stopped you from that tracks how can we use coffee and like so like from me that kind of mention this before when you're when you're interacting with people act like this really delicate point in their day you know they don't know what's going on they're coming to your coffee bar they usually the first person they've seen other than their wife or whatever and you're not sure what kind of day they're having and then if you give them some

► 01:27:42

it's sort of like taste really good and makes him feel good it's like a great thing and if you in if you do that for people a lot you know you feel like you're doing something positive for the world so I always get really focused on these things and you certainly do you know me I think that anytime you can Inspire someone to you know you can respire someone with your passion for something I'm consoling inspired by things that I don't want to have anything to do with this people that inspire me like I watch that movie Jiro Dreams of Sushi I don't want to make sushi I really want to eat I was thinking literally thinking about flying to Japan and book a reservation was going to try to see if I can call David Lee Roth who lives in Japan an accident to boost and practices sword fighting all day one of the greatest bad motherfuker to ever walk the face of the planet guy walks around over

► 01:28:42

give zero Fox he's in his 60s and it's just doing new things and I'm in challenging himself he lives in fucking Japan in Tokyo what is dog when he has an apartment that's fucking David Lee Roth man he's definitely wrong and he's got an apartment like a normal person with a dog and Tokyo he's incredible well if you do that if you go to Japan to Dario's he's such a cool guy we allowed him to wear sunglasses indoors if I didn't cheat on him over taking that photo that's it an old school thing I thought those those old school rock stars I still wear sunglasses indoors and we let him get away with it

► 01:29:24

but if you do that if you go to the gyro let me know and I'll send you some coffee places that are sort of the equivalent of fat in Japan Japan there's a concept in Japanese called kodawari and that is like practice practice practice until you're the best in the world and keep practicing and keep getting it wrong but you're going to get better at all the time you know and it's it's evident in martial arts is evident in your dreams of sushi right and so he's like focused yeah and and this exists for coffee to this is idea of getting a perfect there's this one coffee place I went to last time I was in Japan that would blow your mind it's this guy that's like super in the key has this coffee equipment I walked in my wife she actually found out about this place from a Japanese friend of hers we walking this play

► 01:30:24

he's got all this crazy equipment like like you'd like it it was it's like it's like weird weirdly excessive coffee equipment I'm saying what is going on and also in this place this guy has stereo equipment these giant speakers playing playing like perfect the incredible turntable and all this stuff playing like perfect classical music and he's serving in his goal is to serve you the perfect coffee while you're listening to the perfect music and it's like a crazy library and this guy takes 5 minutes to make you a cup of coffee well but well he's just like practice he's getting it right you know he's he's nailing if he'll throw stuff away if it's not perfect just trying to take to get to the ultimate coffee experience there's another guy name katsu he's got a place called bear Pond espresso

► 01:31:22

and he learned about coffee in New York and so he's trying to bring the New York City Coffee experience to to Central Tokyo you know and he's got this little place this guy

► 01:31:34

he he shows up to his shop like an hour and a half before they open expense that hour and a half making his coffee taste right until taste it throw it away adjust taste it again you know and if it's not right he doesn't know there is yeah that's that's that's cartoon man that place is awesome and that's in Tokyo that guy is a badass he sounds like a better music coffee bad ass wife that's all it has a tiny little place you go in there if it's not opened its cuz he's trying to get the coffee right and you just wait and then you go in there and he meant to ask did you go there I go to visit now are they places like that here in Los Angeles

► 01:32:34

sitting in the dark matter so folks watch if they want to sponsor so the place I got actually bought that for you here locally in a in a shop in Culver City called conocen t c o g n o s c e n t i design the steel gold and I want the best pool cue manufacturers are artists I should say in the world have them designed based on Hardee's engineer's to figure out what was the exact Perfect Caper under the right combinations of woods like most

► 01:33:34

uses ebony music all kinds of different was it most the time he uses ebony with a maple shaft and you know certain woman dried aged Wood Drive as it dries and Shane just caught the wood down starts on a big block owl make a key for the guitar maker very very similar and there's a big difference monks poolplayers in woods and how they perform on a table if they have a different I got Maple forearm of the Q is the joint in most used in the shaft almost always giving these dancers still middle of the Q hold a lot of weight so sometimes

► 01:34:34

steel joints of the steel in the middle so to access like a pendulum cuz the wait is for you but it's also an artisan thing it's like yeah it's just like this coffee thing a lot of ways of the people that are really into it are really into it and I was like there's their artist and they're doing a lot of specially guys like Joe gold and level they're making a functional piece of art it's very beautiful drive. As well yeah this is Joe's work here in the bottom but in these I don't know whether he's going to have a wrap on these or what sometimes they make some with no rap meaning no no leather around the handle and some people prefer leather around the handle there's a hole art to that to unbelievably fast anybody. As well but like I said I'm I'm into anything I could guitar me cuz I don't play guitar but I watch a documentary on how God makes a guitar and I watch the whole document around a Mongolian bow maker last night

► 01:35:34

house making traditional Mongolian bows recurve bows that they make from from fish I don't pay my money for something that is like handmaiden into something really special it's functional and you also get a feeling from using that thing and whether it is like a handmade knife that you're chopping up food within your kitchen you know that Somewhere in Brooklyn a guy you know Works in a cat's that metal and polishes receiving a labor of love you know you're receiving the fruits of someone's creativity there's something about stuff like that will something about effort and work that's why you want to have someone's artwork on your wall

► 01:36:34

you know what's why you would you want to like a piece of furniture instead of like something at Ikea that's just like some block thing that's made in a factory in a toilet but if you could buy a couch that some guy actually carved wood and you know been implanted the put the cushions in place and and you know embroidery amazing. Turned onto coffee in this isn't Culver City's I would have said so cognoscenti coffee in La that I like is called these guys Charles Babinski and Kyle Glanville got together and then there's a G & B and and they put together a coffee program Amazing downtown

► 01:37:34

play their shop is and Charles is the current reigning. Okay

► 01:37:43

do you know we have Champions black barista champion we got a car as soon as I as anybody ever Barista to like John Henry just like dropped from have contest like to see if people can do things for you shouldn't do that now cuz people will wind up dying they would die for crazy limit the amount of competition if people are actually loud involved that's true so this is the coffee coffee competitions that we do and there are it's at there's a barista thing where they making espresso there's a Brewers thing with Eric brewing coffee there's a Taster's thing with a they're competing on how well they can taste coffee discern the differences between coffee and stuff there is a coffee version of the Somalia absolutely if you didn't

► 01:38:44

and you call yourself a coffee Pro and you weren't able to identify as as your shift that would be a major be a faker you need to be able to identify what could you get confused by what if you were really worried that you had a bet your mortgage on whether or not you could nail one which would be it would be a tricky one the differences between what coffees what does well in Central America they get really cuz I mean think about that Central American is most there you know El Salvador Guatemala Costa Rica and Nicaragua they're all right next to each other very similar to Similac very similar but like a coffee from another great coffee growing area is right in the middle of Kenya

► 01:39:30

and Kenya is right just south of Ethiopia for the coffee taste completely different and so there's a city called the okay just as you have to special in in in Ethiopia a place called near e n y e r i in Kenya is really special and that it is the coffee there taste like blackberries

► 01:39:56

nights like this is like lemon berry taste like blackberries are black currants really beautiful and savory like meet that would happen if you took down stuff though like you took some plants from that area and they moved into Hawaii that's a great question the coffee business you're asking the right questions in general we don't have very many examples of that because only recently of people started to move coffee around but but I tasted once coffee from a farm in El Salvador that had Canyon coffees from this this place in the are planted on it and I at the time I didn't know anything but I was tasting the coffee and I accused the guy that was working in my lab with me of making a mistake it taste like it's the varieties that have grown to these places that are ways to determine these flavors there's also a

► 01:40:55

and not in Panama that was kind of accidentally planted with some coffees from Ethiopia and the coffee taste like in the open, yeah the climate the same in the coffee variety is the same cuz remember all these thousands of varieties that exist in the world you know if they grow three different varieties there if you go to your shop and ask a farmer with varieties of coffee he's going he's got a choice of three

► 01:41:26

and they're different from anywhere else in the world boost they look different you can see that they're different yeah I'm okay is the variety so MLK this came from Yemen somehow and made it to Hawaii and they find it and why not it's almost often do you travel around the world helping people Define the flavors of the coffee's well I have a kid so I don't do as much anymore but there was there was a decade there where I would travel when your 200 days in a year I was I was I was just bummed out so you don't ya

► 01:42:26

sometimes sometimes you don't if you don't it's too delicious and you don't want to you just trying to hit you but

► 01:42:34

but yeah but there's a lot of I mean it's not just me there's lots of there's lots of people out there right now in fact I was chatting with a guy and in Kenya this morning know what can be done about the soil itself is there a composting that proves the health of the plant question you bring the coffee here but you got to you got to be bringing stuff back to the soil all the time and otherwise this will be depleted so getting nutrients back in the soil is really important composting is a big deal it's good to have access to manure if you can from eat cattle or chickens or whatever that they put it it's a lot it's a type of it depends on the soil people really in a chickenshit and

► 01:43:32

Dynamite that stuff it's weird people ask me for shit so what about like rotten vegetables and yeah okay if they did they have the coffee pulp and stuff like that from when they process the coffee plus manure chicken manure all sorts of stuff and piled up and and then it's evenly distributed over the farm and they have to carry it on their back and walk up these mountains and like put in a 2 or 3 Kg of manure on each coffee plant now one coffee plant will produce about a pound of coffee in a year

► 01:44:19

to this gives you an idea how much work it is one coffee plant produces a full bag of coffee in one year in a year in dollars what happens coffee can be grown in the United States was not cheap at all the issue that they're having with a lot of farms is the depletion the soil correct an issue with Farmers so challenge for all agriculture but but coffee is no different how to maintain fertility in your soil without because it takes a lot of work like a

► 01:45:19

the labor to get stuff back and then so chemical fertilizer with another option for for Farmers they use but that's a problem too because it takes energy to make you know you they burn gas basically to make NPK fertilizer which chemical fertilizer Organic Farms don't use that kind of fertilizer they make their own with compost but it's so much effort it's just a hugely expensive undertaking to do so it's a challenge it's one of the things that we face and we talked about a lot and coffee is there a variation of flavor of a plant that's been fertilized with a chemical fertilizer or synthetic or whatever you call it as versed as prose to compost the plant is healthy it's possible to make it healthy to eat in both those ways so if it plants healthy it's going to make good coffee but it seems like a huge difference in the chemical process itself right now obviously have to burn things in order to make it's like it it's yeah

► 01:46:19

there's a lot of Middle Ground to I mean I would say most most good farmers are many good farmers use a little bit of of synthetic fertilizer and a little bit of compost as well and they kind of treasure vitamins with a good diet that's exactly what it's like using chemical fertilizer the same as using vitamin supplements and he's a doctor wrote a book called Dead Doctors Don't Lie and say about minerally sufficient in insufficient soils and about the real epidemic we have with mentally deficient diet how much of what he said it's probably talk to someone else dr. Rhonda Patrick about it she's I want to guess we have on the podcast I'll set an actual scientist and yeah she really understands what she's talking about but this guy was talking about areas in the world where people live to be much longer or live to me much older and we're healthier and had darker hair longer and that it was because they were getting something called glacial milk which is the runoff like

► 01:47:19

water from glaciers actually had like a Milky quality to it because it was so many really rich right now. Is there areas like that where they grow coffee with mineral-rich coughing a lot of people like the legend of Legends coffee coffee mentioned earlier volcanic soil so soil the farmers if their coffee is great they will attribute it to all of these things but so far there's not a lot of like actual evidence to support any of that it is all it is is we know we're discovering these things all the time you know it's like what is the magic sort of mixture of the right variety the right climate the right kind of soil composition the right kind of husbandry at this it's so many factors together it's I don't think it makes sense to isolate one thing you know another thing that people always ask me is like if they're growing pine trees

► 01:48:19

on the farm with a green coffee can you please the pine trees in the in the in the coffee itself and I'm pretty sure that there's no there's no way that that I mean I've never experienced that you know for people do these Legends kind of come up run around, and you do you do taste amazing things and coffee the inexplicable like just drank the definitely smells like lemons cuz that's not the case of a lot of coffee that's right well coffee is will continue to extract overtime so while it's been sitting in this in this thing it's continuing to extract going from maybe it was maybe 18% when I plunged it in terms of percentage of extraction and it keeps on going up as it sits in total evolve in terms of flavor

► 01:49:19

changes as you

► 01:49:21

so so there's this thing called habituation in tasting things and I wasn't completely hip to this until I taste scientist he did this demonstration for me and you did it with wine he said he he gave me a glass of this this white wine from New Zealand

► 01:49:44

and he had me taste it and said you taste that green bell pepper note in this you know and that's the thing that they say about wines from this area and I said yeah okay and then gave me a little bit of actual green bell pepper and said eat that and I did and then he said okay not taste the wine again and I tasted the wine again and it tastes like a completely different wine

► 01:50:05

and I sure what happened you said okay so that that wine had this chemical in it and you name the chemical I don't remember what it was it was the green bell pepper chemical and then and then when he gave me the green bell pepper and overwhelmed my senses with that same smell and so you know how if you're if if you use Windex in your house you smell it for a while you're overwhelmed by it and then in a few minutes you can't smell it anymore it's not that it's gone away it's just that your brain has sort of screened it out will all depend on change sassy and so and so the same thing happens with coffee if you're drinking coffee and there's an overwhelming element then your olfactory will screen it out and then you start tasting different things so things change over time to smell certainly does enhanced XR change taste in coffee especially it's it's at least half of thing it doesn't as well

► 01:51:05

find it like you know a good wine like I like red wine when I smell a good red wine with the smell of it actually makes it seem somewhat more delicious flavor the definition of flavor is the is the combination of aromatic and taste together so if you eliminate if you have a cold or something aromatics suddenly food doesn't taste right nothing is right because you're only tasting sweet sour salty bitter and savory which is what you can experience on your tongue but your nose is able to get thousands of things so this is there's this phenomenon that happens when you taste in things and it's it's

► 01:51:45

call retronasal so when you swallow it this is weird but you swallow something and then it coats your throat and the the aromatics kind of go backwards up through your nose from your throat and it's if that's called retronasal from the back of your note until you're actually smelling things at the same time that you're swallowing them that is fascinating is there any restaurant in the Los Angeles area that gets the whole thing bright like great food great wine and great coffee

► 01:52:20

that's a great question somebody should have like coffee like this like the perfect cup of coffee roasted March 4th right now so a week ago what's today's date what's the official day right now so 17th what is it 10th the 10th so 660 17th and it was one of those Mondays so 6 days ago it's really recently roasted that would be an amazing thing for someone to pull off in a restaurant have like really delicious wine to go with really delicious food and have the same effort put into the coffee and a few restaurants are starting to really work on it and trailer right yeah and what do they do the San Francisco most San Francisco has a couple of there is one in Baltimore of all places amazing job

► 01:53:20

coffee service amazing carpenters and amazing food as well I mean the guy at this guy named Spike does this I mean he is amazing this dude I'm going there tomorrow you have cheated with their kitchen it's me I'm gone awesome what else can we talk about when it comes to coffee is there anything that we missed I know I don't know I mean the some of the things that that people always want to know about decaf people wanting another thing oh yeah well I mean it's the thing you see when you working coffee go to cocktail parties or something people always ask you these questions they ask you what's your favorite coffee and why because they want to know they also want to know what the deal with decaf is what is the deal well I mean so coffee has this alkaloid caffeine and and then you have to get it out so

► 01:54:20

first with they got it out if they use the solvent like like 10 years ago and they noticed that it was able to take the caffeine out and that was the original but no but who wants to use that in there so over the years they've developed better ways of doing it using carbon dioxide or charcoal filters to get the ticket the caffeine out how much do you actually get out because I had heard that Starbucks has a particular high caffeine content of their regular coffee and that there might be a little bit left of that when you have decaf at Starbucks would have a higher caffeine content urban legend legend what about the decaf does it have any caffeine in it at all or is it release amounts of Trace

► 01:55:18

so you know people that are like allergic sensitive to it shouldn't drink decaffeinated coffee but but people that are you know each of these methods is slightly different but Trace amount of caffeine in decaffeinated coffee is is one there is a number of these methods that are really good at getting getting the caffeine out and not destroying the flavor the coffee what is it says Starbucks tall decaf at all with a small that has nine point five milligrams of caffeine in it what is a normal cup of coffee have in it like 50-200 Snot caffeine-free to slow caffeine for the double what is that at

► 01:56:18

16oz double right because that's an eight is at all in a 20oz I know I love ya that's silly called medium stupid don't call it in what world Gulliver travels and what were its ridiculous so if someone is really sensitive to caffeine now they can also still probably get a little bit of a caffeine kick yeah I guess where it called decaf decaffeinated it's only mostly it's mostly but the flavor right now the flavors

► 01:57:07

okay great I've done this I've tasted great decaffeinate a great coffee that becomes decaffeinated and it's certainly the flavors impacted by caffeine by the removal of caffeine by they process it goes to but it's still delicious coffee okay for delicious decaffeinated coffee that we should look at any of these it's like putting extraordinary care into their regular coffee it's very likely that they will be putting extra you know if you engage with them and they were proud of their decaf and its chances are that they are putting a lot of care and do it and I know that I used to run a coffee company coffee program for coffee company back East call Counter Culture coffee and I put extra effort into my decaffeinated coffee because I knew that the people that were drinking that we're drinking it only for the flavor

► 01:58:07

they weren't drinking it for the drug effect because of the way that it taste it and I felt like that was a responsibility you know that's a very interesting point cuz you're not deal with any people just looking for a drug and so and so the problem with decaf I think is that consumers who drink decaffeinated coffee they don't necessarily expect to pay more they feel like it should be the same price you know and I get that but it does cost money to put it through the process of decaffeinated feel like that most copies overpriced in the first place I don't think people really truly realize the amount of effort when you stroke it down by 1 pound is one tree for a fucking year it's totally true

► 01:59:07

yeah that's unbelievable man yeah that's crazy and you can get that for like 20 bucks and that's my grandparents had access to a nickel cup of coffee and they think it's stupid that was intentional I mean restaurants at that time that would they were losing money on their fighting cup of coffees even in the twenties because but they did that it was sort of a lost leader they were trying to get people into the restaurant so you know so I'm kind of stuck in people's mind that coffee should be cheap and and and it shouldn't be it's it it in my view

► 01:59:52

coffee should be the best you can possibly make it taste and then and if that cost money whatever just drink less traveled across America and you stop at a diner cuz you're hungry and did you fuck around even order cup of coffee little stupid white cop it is you know I love to eat a diner in Sprite I freaking love for you don't drink coffee there and I love pancakes and 1/2 I wish that the few times I've gone to places where the coffee was out Ray justly good it was really good, sometimes sometimes someone who takes as much effort into their omelets as they do their coffee which is slow what should be it should be expected if it's financially feasible

► 02:00:52

loan to pay for goods. What is a bag like this delicious bag of Ethiopian yirgacheffe show 12 or $13 I'm asleep at the shop next to my pillow it's good I just want to drink sometimes and this always happen to me when I get a special coffee and then throw it in the freezer in that save it for a special occasion because they're like special coffee you know I'm going to put that out in the kitchen too I'm not going to put in the freezer I don't have to register I could drink it drink it quickly we're going to leave this out and we're going to report on this and thank you for coming by thank you to Wrecking Ball coffee for making this awesome Ethiopian your pleasure talking to you can cover anything that people don't know about coffee that should know

► 02:01:52

think that you're the people might be interested you ready

► 02:01:57

catshit coffee oh I've had that Kopi Luwak but that's made by a civet they eat right there used to be a really is shit out by this cat thing right it's like it's in the cat family right well eats the beans and then shoots them out and they take it out of its poop right and when it goes through its digestive tract it in parts of very mellow taste to the coffee Jack Nicholson and I never heard of it is it started a rash of people asking people like me about this this this

► 02:02:57

I first tried that with my friend take the owners of caveman coffee it's been a crazy coffee kind of sort of January in Miami and we saw the same he's out of New Mexico in this place in Miami was like some sort of a specialty Coffee Joint it was a restaurant that had these really expensive coffee and I forget I moved like 30 bucks because it came out this cats but the problem is it's really rare and that's why I said spent it everything I'm glad I'm glad you okay there can be there can be some pretty rotten of this comes out weird these places with us

► 02:03:57

nude documentary that's killing SeaWorld rides people got a chance to see what it's really like it's right fucking SeaWorld's terrible terrible that's true it is so it's a touch of that same sadness when I saw that when I saw that I've been to the places where they do that so it stands to reason if you have a product like this it's very expensive then you're going to have these fucking animals you can afford this one a fraud because it's so expensive you know I would imagine so you know I mean the amount that you can get from coffee like the one I brought you or some of these other ones that you mentioned you know it's not totally necessary to go to that accept the other thing I noticed on the Twitter feed somebody mentioned coffee going extinct there was a news about a year ago there was a news thing that was talking about coffee going extinct and

► 02:04:57

on. And it's because so that this is tied into this this Ethiopia thing the fact that you know 9899 percent of the total genetic diversity of coffee is in Ethiopia and not only in the country but in one it's it's not even Ethiopia at all it's the Southwest part of Ethiopia with coffee is indigenous to an image of the beans and stuff like that like that ghetto ghetto a blow up on one of those two small coffee beans yeah we calling coffee cherries for obvious reasons your crazy your grind your own stuff most people think but it's already cooked and roasted and yeah we think of it as food in coffee in one of the biggest things that we can do for people

► 02:05:57

yeah it's beautiful get people to understand that coffee is the seed of a fruit I need to get some coffee fruit I go and actually buy the fruit and eat it is there a place we would come over there I think I'm there in April or some shit I love fruit this is the guy I'm there in Santa Barbara May 2nd Friday May 2nd I'm at the lobero theater we saw Joey Diaz I could check so I will do I will definitely go and check that out because I love when someone does something that cool crazy project like that and then 7 years he's a cool guy for sure this is really fascinating stuff

► 02:06:57

interested I really appreciate you coming out here and educated and giving us all the the lowdown on coffee I've been in the process of this over the last few months yeah just really kind of digging deep into the coffee flavor Barrel it's it's really been fascinating stuff and very intriguing and stimulating and I'm in a lot of ways just behind it's cool to uncover this whole sort of community of people trying to you know enhance flavors and taste them and change I mean I had no idea there was a specialty coffee Association of American Idol just a few days ago serious business. Org connection and stuff like that so coffee was invented in Ethiopia's we said and in Ethiopia they do it like a coffee ceremony like you know it's a very ceremonial way to prepare it and ring

► 02:07:57

I'm going to do that this coffee ceremony they it's like they gather people together from the village they and they talk about things they talk about the news of the village they talk about things are going on in the in the world when coffee moved from Ethiopia to Yemen totally different deal like in Ethiopia it's always a woman that makes coffee whereas in Yemen it wasn't like that but they still would talk about news and intellectual and stuff like that then coffee moved from Yemen to Europe you know Italy and England and places like that and the coffee house

► 02:08:34

still remained a place for intellectual exchange and discourse and stuff like that they play in the American Revolution in coffee houses you know in case there's something about there's something about coffee that like that like get your mind going as well as it stimulates you and like wakes you up but it's also the Tea Party Movement had an effect on the United States took off just by simply the fact that they went from tea to Coffee there is there are people to speculate that coffee consumption is a part of the American drive to Ingenuity and Imagination you know when. Starbucks impacted people's productivity go to meet somebody to coffee shop right you can talk about something that's it's different than going to drink with somebody to borrow or have dinner with somebody

► 02:09:34

or something like that it's different it's somehow more about exchanging information more imagination stimulating stimulant of caffeine in coffee is stimulating and then their flavor is enriching you enjoy the flavor and then you get fucking happy and it's been that way since the origin of coffee yeah I'm in people. Excetera Revolution that's interesting to me and that's one of the reasons that I think that I like to work in coffee cuz I'm into that sort of thing anyway intellectual engagement creativity you know music poetry politics always been like that it's like this in in Asia in Arabia everywhere the coffee goes it's like that do you feel like coffee doesn't get credit for the impact culturally sometimes

► 02:10:34

was me out this idea of like cheap people want cheap bandhan Coffee at its only function is as a drug to get them to work in the morning you know and it's been in fire culture but but it's it's special and and it could go away you know about how we're 98% of this this the origin of coffee is because of climate change the scientist who does this work is done the projections NFL weather there as predicted increases by a few degrees

► 02:11:16

then the coffee won't be able to survive and it could be 80% wiped out in these natural coffee forest in 50 years and then because the mother load of genetic origin of coffee will be gone essentially that's intense can there be steps done to safeguard that I was trying to do that in the industry so we had to actually at a conference about a year ago on this very question what we talked about preservation of the genetic diversity of coffee which means taking coffee out of Ethiopia planting it elsewhere to make sure that we've got other examples of the same of the genetic diversity diversity in other parts of the world you know preserving it there's other ways to preserve coffee do you know by freezing the seeds you know I'm putting them in storage so if we need them we can go back to them this is an eye-opening podcast about coffee today then I had in 46 years of life

► 02:12:15

I really appreciate the specialty coffee Association of America and follow Peter on Twitter it's Peter Giuliano g i u l a n o i l y a n okay e g i u l i a n o o g i p s p e t e r g i u g i u l i a n o that's a lot of work thank you Joe Rogan that's why it's so easy. Org very much I really really appreciate it and thanks also to our sponsors thanks to change NatureBox NatureBox go to naturebox.com

► 02:13:15

and I use the lost my place

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NatureBox fuckers we are awesome delicious shit you confuse a shit out of me believe we need to know so give me a second there NatureBox yeah here we go

► 02:13:35

yes it is naturebox.com Rogan it's not a code word so naturebox.com Rogan that's why we look it up otherwise we can choose the fuck out of people so go to naturebox.com Rogan try NatureBox and get 50 50% off your first box that's naturebox.com Rogan very delicious stuff and as I said before a lot of variables and as far as like what you can order you can go super healthy you go medium healthy can go pretzels but I really good yummy delicious shit shit with a lot of positives on it no artificial sweeteners no artificial flavors no more official colors no partially hydrogenated oils and like I said the blueberry almonds are the Bomb Diggity song go get yourself some of that and we're also brought to buy legalzoom.comlegalzoom.com is an excellent sponsor as well and one that we really enjoyed here on the podcast cuz we get a lot of positive feedback in fact 9 out of 10 people who use LegalZoom said they would use it again

► 02:14:35

I'll go to legalzoom.com and use the code word Rogan in the referral box at checkout for more savings thanks also to onnit.com go to Onnit use the code name Rogan and save 10% off any and all supplements now bitches you know as much about coffee as you ever need to unless you become a freak like Peter Giuliano alright we'll see you guys tomorrow with a try cast dr. Christopher Ryan and Duncan Trussell return and we're doing our threesome thing that we always do I once a month so much love see you guys soon and tomorrow night Ice House almost sold out get on it see if I just