#1107 - Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz

The Joe Rogan Experience #1107 - Sam Harris & Maajid Nawaz

April 18, 2018

Sam Harris is a neuroscientist and author of the New York Times bestsellers, The End of Faith, Letter to a Christian Nation, and The Moral Landscape. Maajid Nawaz is a British activist, author, columnist, radio host and politician.

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all right my guests in this podcast to Dos podcast guests are Sam Harris and maajid Nawaz times much is good friend of his and a brilliant man I really enjoyed this conversation please welcome Sam and Majin

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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boom and Wheelock John and Sam imagine how are you good thanks to meet you finally arrived what's been your ultimate goal like what was it while he is just a superstar that needs more exposure I mean he's like to like he should be running half of civilization. He's he's really that's one of those people like I can't believe the book we rode together unfortunately so what's going on a lot of yearly cost for the case against the San Pablo

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at once upon a time you was truly a British Muslim or Pakistani origin was listed in the United Kingdom on the Thomson Reuters well check database under a category red terrorism designation while at the same time being listed across the Atlantic in the United States by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an extremist Muslim extremist according to two separate lists and of course that speaks to some of the polarization in all times and how irrational is conversation around extremism Islam integration Muslims in the west has become sued Thompson rights as well check the database this place is no joke it's like I just be seen on many many other Banks use this database Alpha background check some of the clients can have a bank account with them so as a result so for example Thomson Reuters in their database which is up

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is an organization I found a 10 years ago had his bank account shut down in the United States because of the Thomson Reuters will check database system that HSBC subscribes to anyway we sue them they pay damages they issued an apology and they took my name off this terrorism designation this they have them at work check database short-form bio and turn the world why would you ever be on a terrorist watch list taking legal action against them and I will get to your point but I think just want to say that I just held in law firm on retainer and running magazine for that college rape comes with a successful Clan. Which is an announcement

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they are writing to the Southern Poverty Law Center as we speak I think they got wind of it the Southern Poverty Law Center as of I think either yesterday or the day before they remove the entire list that's been up there for 2 years remove the entire list which was on it and it's no longer available on their website that if you are a Critic of Islam radical fundamentalist Islam that you are somehow or another a racist extremist so that's pretty much what they said if you put on myself will come from within the community that experience the somehow that makes us 90 Muslim there are a number of logical areas involved in that logical leap that they made do they have any distinction razor is there anything that they write that sort of points to why they would say that one of them honestly the reason they listed one of them was that I had a bachelor party in the strip club

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oh yeah before I got married that makes you an anti Muslim extremists that was one of the reasons listed which is part of the reason why we can so that was that was a primary reason it was one of the three main reasons I think she listed and again false they claimed that I had called for the criminalization of the face Veil for women in the west which wasn't true I have called for a policy to beat up to it we're in Banks and airports where you're not allowed to wear a motorcycle helmet you also shouldn't be allowed to cover your face in the name of religion which is very different recording for the criminalization Passaic of the face. That's like saying you're not allowed to wear a motorcycle helmet in the bank so I believe in the criminalization a bunch of software mitzvah

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so it was a Miss characterization of my opinion the office till 2 and the other one the reason I've been changing it each time people have been pointing out the stupidity of their obligations so why do they exist what is a Southern Poverty Law Center of painful irony because if you roll back the clock now in 20 or somebody or is there reasons to exist were great and that this was the the flagship organization that was suing the KKK and in a sovereign citizens and just at the far right in a white nationalist Christian nationalist movements in the US and in some cases to create a fact and their and they're

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concern obviously about you know that extremists hate groups in the US was totally valid and I made with it became at me now now that we will see how morally confused they are people have been shining light on them and they and they there this bloated organization has been taken way too much money in there to them it's not it It suffers from other signs of corruption or conflict of interest but back in the day you know more Steve's was going to bring in the KKK to court and bankrupt in their various chapters and that all that look fantastic and now the social justice Warrior moral Panic moral stupidity virus has gotten into their brains and they can't differentiate someone like maajid from a right-wing Christians do not see a hater of Islam right or hater of people in the Middle East and and sodas with Ayaan hirsi Ali and I'm an hour ironic Lee you're off the website

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now I'm on it I think I'm on it at night in a farm or transit or away but the the the article that was written about my podcast with Charles Murray by box hit the Southern Poverty Law Center hate watch page and saw where you had articles about Neo-Nazi groups articles about the Austin bomber and then me and my podcast with Charles Murray I definitely want to talk about that but I want to give people your background for Joe reason why you were on the list in the UK in the first place had to do with your actual background came of age in what are now referred to as the title days of racism in the United Kingdom much has changed since then for the good but in those days they were serious some cases of fighting racism that I faced attacks machete attacks by actually a Nazis I mean I've grown up I've grown up fighting they are Nazis on the streets and I've been attacking me

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machetes because of the color of my skin I need a bunch of white guys in Alabama designating me in the same breath as they would designate Nazis having that experience being falsely arrested by Essex police on a number of occasions profiled while the genocide in Bosnia was on voting against Muslims in Bosnia I often say to an American audience when I'm speaking about this we are now here with you on the west coast in this beautiful niece to do you have congratulations and genocide was unfolding on the East Coast against took a group of people with whom you identify didn't even if it's just on the human that will human beings but you know even with in that Community identification wouldn't touch you in a way for example if you define yourself as Jewish and there was a genocide against Jews on the other side of this very confident of this very country how it would impact you on on the west coast from London

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it takes less time to fly from London to Bosnian it comes from New York to LA and so it really had a profound impact on those lines across Europe in that genocide was on folding and things were never the same again it rather than inside generation Coast Audiology had a lot to do with that the anger originally came from the genocide so at the age of 16 what will the the domestic racism in the situation in Bosnia unfolding as it did I joined his with that. Which is a known terrorist still legal in America and Britain and across Europe islamist organization that was the first of the global investigations the aspire to resurrect notion of a caliphate which we subsequently seen two great damaging effect in the form of Isis caliphate and method of coming to how it was by infiltrating militaries in muslim-majority countries recruiting army officers and then instigating will it reduce whether that be in turkey and Pakistan in Egypt these are the countries they they told me this

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and the rain with each other in through the military coup setup is caliphate which would then be an expansionist caliphate and we conquer the world and that's it sounds crazy that's what they believe and that's what they very very serious and intend on bringing about and now people and I say that believe me cuz I've seen the ice experiment unfold but I join the group that salt to do that Norm terroristic means I need to 16 ended up on the leadership of organization in the UK ended up co-founding that group in Pakistani 1999 where I went I left the UK went to Pakistan was among the first but then got a pussy Pakistani members that went out there to set that we've been about 3 or 4 blocks in Pakistan seeing somebody else has been arrested for being members of this group and then you can still in jail I spent a year in Pakistan went back while studying for my degree in University of London I would fly Monday for fly on Saturdays and Sundays to Copenhagen in Denmark

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who founded the Danish Pakistani chapter of this group and then the third year of my degree cuz I was doing Lauren Arabic resulted in me having to go to an Arab country for the night with you and so I chose each and a a day before the 9/11 attacks in 2001 I ended up in Egypt I went to Alexandria enrolled in the University of Alexandria to study for the year of Arabic language was 9/11 happened on the climate changed the security climate changed all over the world something we didn't know about no predicted and on the 1st of April 2002 my house in Alexandria was raided by the Egyptian State security I was blindfolded but hands were tied behind my back I was then driven through the desert into Clyro to the dungeon of the State security guard courses in a building known as a jazz which is the main headquarters of an adult at the internal State security

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I thought we were held in the dungeons there for 4 days and they electrocuted most of the business that they had that sort of them interrogate to them on the fourth day I was taken to the prison on his mother. In Cairo princess Audrey confinement for about three and a half months then charged eventually sentenced to 5 years as a political prisoner under the Egyptian emergency law and stuff my full sentence there in Egypt eventually left prison in 2006 return to the UK

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did Amnesty International get you out at all or they love interest in so I can change me an unpleasant me to be the man at 6 before you today is your rights an amnesty is adoption of me and and and a few others in the case at Presence of country makes it very Brave and Bold step now looking back at it because keep in mind the context in which was president was prime minister and we were in the thick of the war on terror we were in the middle of it and we disagree with everything that's going to stand. But they don't believe in using violence to bring the caliphate about and so we will defend the right to say stupid things and I shouldn't be in prison I said he should have been torture for it so I'm just adopted us as prisoners of conscience and I was 24 years old at the time by the way just described you happen to be up until the age of 24 when I was in prison and

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it was the first time in my relatively young lifetime full Teen out right I never been defended by any mainstream pillar of mainstream Society in that way before nobody is smoking out for me and I had a really huge kind of emotional impact on my psyche I said in my what's a biography that where the hot leads the mind can follow until I was now willing to consider alternatives because of and sees what campaigning for me that's why I spend the next four years in prison reading rereading well if you want to bring classic English literature study Islamic theology really trying to understand the world around me and I four years to do so and I spent 4 years debating And discussing with pretty much the founders of Egypt's main jihadist organizations were in jail with me in the same prison including the Assassins on the former president who's been killed in 1981 because of his pee still with his room and he's assassins were in jail

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and I've been in prison longer than I've been alive and they had some collective years of wisdom between the most of those Jihad is prisoners I was in jail with had over the course of those years two decades and more change their views and reformed I was still conservative religious most famous something which I'm not I don't claim to be in my in my work at the moment but they were still religious extremist and I will no longer Raikou islamist people that sold to implement that version of Islamic society and so they are in 4 years of constant debate and discussion with them people that I knew had more wisdom than I've been in jail for longer than I've been alive again slowly changing I read all the books I wrote about changing their own views and why they changed and might release I I eventually have a good few months off to my buddy so I had to leave the organization cuz I no longer believed in an Audiology that I was once prepare to die for that is fast

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about in jail speaking with asssassins that is really incredible you would think that most people think that when someone goes to jail usually whatever criminality that they have in the cement it in hard and I don't know why mine is an exceptional case cuz most people you're right would you look at Safeco Field is known as the founding father of modern day Jazz. Isn't he started off like me I'm known terrorist islamist but in Egypt Giles in fact I was held in he was tortured and he ended up becoming the Godfather of modern-day terrorism I'm through his book Milestones all male stripping in Arabic and yet that my case for whatever reason I kind of went that bit further to question everything I believed in but that's not no more no in most cases when you torture people in jail in the hardening and ossifying that ideology and people become as angry as I become the monster so you get out of jail

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are you do then so I left the group in 2007 2008 in January so I finished my degree had one year left of my undergraduate degree I graduated I did my monsters at the London School of economics and political fairy I'm all doing the mostest set up aquarium and quit your wee-wee bill as the world's first Council extremism organization it was meant to be we believe it is bringing us back to the splc the medication a Muslim response to extremism from people that have lived it been through it my co-founders where is Miss themselves to change the like me Muslims born and raised come from the community to have a community-based response a Muslim response to this growing problem of extremism and it was 10 years ago and since then only demonstrating why this kind of response was needed for the Southern Poverty Law Center to designate somebody with my background without protection with somebody who was prepared to die for this cause

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address these problems as a Muslim. Call for reform for the good of my communities as opposed to against them but I don't like me as a 19 was an extremely City just really does I think showing a lot on the troops said is he off the situation we find out something Observatory and the lack of real investigation or backing up their claims with actual facts and information and that brings me to your story with Charles Murray and Vox and Ezra Klein that is the same problem but not only is it a lack of Investigation but when it gets pointed out I forgot the guys name of the quarterback in this but it wasn't worse these but it was someone who is Mark Zuckerberg

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they just double down the error cannot be pointed out clearly enough to trigger much less an apology a modulation of of the claim they just people just double down in the face of obvious counter-evidence and that's it sister's not about a sincere engagement with the problem and there's and there's this there's so many variables hear that make it make it a really toxic environment but one is that the the locus of concern is never the individual it is the group it's the tribe until you can say it is like the Dell sacrifice any number of individuals to make the political case they want to make so they don't they're two completely unrepentant when they're showing to get it wrong in your case and ions case it's just such a such a grievous more laps because not only is it is the attack on you illegitimate it actually raises your

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your security concerns and it it it becomes a reference point for journalists who are confused who can't follow the plot I don't have the time to fact-check everything it makes you Radioactive from the point of view of mainstream journalist because they go to the Southern Poverty Law Center for Sight to figure out who's worth talking to and they see a page it where you're listed as a anti Muslim extremist along with people who they're very little resemblance to you audio logically because they're probably a few people on there who who could be described as anti Muslim extremist and you know the year of the ten people you don't need to talk to you on I've got this problem where is you are actually one of the most valuable voices of jective Lee one of the most valuable voices but probably you know who I can prank on to finger you know if you know anyone who would rival your voice on this topic so it's just mind-boggling it's very difficult

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iconix iComfort explain to anybody what it feels like to have lived in the entire life from roughly the age of 14 being consumed by this issue of Muslims in the west and this question and originally getting it on swing it in one way and then still being consumed by the answering it in a different way now to Icon describe to anybody how much emotional the toll it takes to have your whole life to find your whole life by trying to answer this question and because you care for it because this is a question concerns you when I join these in his group I did I was wrong and I don't hit some reading nefarious ideas but did so because I gave it down and cared for a genocide that I saw around folding and desperately wanted a solution so you know when I became an islamist I did some ounce of care and love and concern for what I believe was my community under attack to have a bunch of people coming on

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and say that I am Auntie the very community that I believe I have full for all my life and my life is being consumed and defined by this it really is taking the one thing away from somebody that they have I mean I went to jail for this thing I have twins in prison because of this thing to have someone completely ignoring in that white at tip tip deprive me of having being able to claim that I have stood for my community. Bye instead saying that I'm Antioch Community Bank you feel like crap joints when did this start happening this the moral Panic that you constantly discussing the needs of the flippant sort of accusations without real

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any real solid objective reasoning behind calling someone like you or Ayaan hirsi Ali who's the victim of female genital mutilation to say that she's an anti-muslim said that the she's islamophobic is it seems to me it's almost insane but it seems to me to be prevalent this is something that is a it's a common sentiment today that I don't recall ever seeing anything like this one or two decades go become increasingly so mean to me just because I've been doing this work for better or worse and colliding with these people more and more but it's it's it's definitely

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an export from some Trends in intellectual life that go back 50 years or more maybe away is Hollywood post-modernism did and I mean you can go back further than that it's just that there's there's a there's a framework kind of pseudo-intellectual framework where facts can't be talked about his fax their their intrinsically political the intrinsically convey power disparities your science is just a tool of power sort of thinking and this goes back away is but it is it's now seemingly ascendant on the left in a way that is is just barely the welder invented seems to be only two subjects gender and race those are the ones that get those are the big ones I think it's sure we could find more if we take a minute to think about it but they're at those are those are those certainly to work every other those are the ones where there's a wall

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I'm quite race this is the it's trying a lot of energy for prices in the background but the perception is that Muslims are a politically beleaguered minority that have to be so it is like it is written that people think they're so you know it's racist to criticize Islam is right that made any sense to me if you know Ben Affleck being one but it is you know this is there minority in Los Angeles they're not on my way over there that the second biggest religion on Earth this is it were talking about 1.7 billion people and their end the criticism of Muslim extremism for the most part is focused on society's where you have a most cases of majority Muslim population you have women and gays and freethinkers treated terribly and that's that that is the you know the center of the bullseye in terms of when you know what what one is criticizing when one talks about the on Coursey

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so there was a lot of this stuff is some of this some paranoia the son of a rational approach this conversation that son suffered from him

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when when when I first met him I met at the Intelligence Squared debate on the side of a debate I was on the other side of this debate and emotion that we were debating was Islam is a religion of peace I was back there arguing off of my true belief is because I believe its original piece of War it's just a religion that is interpreted in different ways but I have to pick a side and so I picked that side and defending the motion and an ion and Douglas will the other side I know it doesn't turn off what's the speakers and Sam was there a ghast station post-debate conversation and invited Sam to to have his saying she said I want to hear what sound Harris has to say and so

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a public Intelligence Squared debates that are there very well produced online I don't know that they're televised anywhere but they're online they they they got a great theater in Manhattan and you know what an audience maybe a thousand people in a friend John Don Van that the journalist is the empresario and but this was a dinner afterwards for the organizers in the participants been there there maybe 70 people in a you know that the back room of restaurant and Marge and I were not at the same table but thankfully we were like 50 feet away from each other but facing each other and it so he was at the table with ion in the other speakers and at one point that there that everyone's getting debriefed about how this went and I honestly why I Sam Harris is here I'd like to to hear what he has to say about the debate and I look at my dad and he said at least 50 feet away from me and you want me to say what I said go 😃

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actually dishonest and endemic because he's playing a game and this is not a real conversation to say formal academic style debate where you know his job is not to leave his view open to influence by the other discussions he said he's making a case and I didn't know it at the time but he felt unnaturally constrained by The Format of the debate he had to argue that Islam is a religion of peace and some of the moves he made there I thought were dishonest and so I said I remember this more less verbatim because we talked about anyway since I've been to a book but

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I said Margie to get everyone in this room recognizes that you have the hardest job in the world and we're all very glad that you're doing that you have to somehow convince the next generation of Muslims that Islam really is a religion of peace and the Jihad is just an inner spiritual struggle and that the martyrs don't get 72 virgins in paradise and all the rest and so my question for you is a is this do you really believe that that it did this is the case now or do you think that pretending that is like that is the case is the method by which you will make it the case if you just pretend long enough and hard enough but it'll become so the extra line had was and can just be on his way to get in the kids honest with us here and so they're so I responded immediately instead of you calling me a liar

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and I like into my second gin and tonic and and he's giving me to the sort of Middle Eastern stare down across the sky was that and I should have known and I think somebody very tight for the change the conversation and just completely veered off this and I never I never spoke to him again for another what was it a couple years since I was one of those guys that didn't want to entertain a conversation with Sam based upon the defensive nose when it came to this topic and I think that actually it's important to say that to people that cuz you asked him a question about the child's money situation a lot of people run

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actually wanting to engage with someone on the substance of their own ideas that I think in the climate were in today but they're engaging with people based upon that on the Phoenix and then stop that feeling but we're going to try as hard as we can to detach those feedings from because that's played you know what that means you lend the person that you're speaking to the best possible interpretation of what they're saying and I don't know them to clarify what I mean I'm supposed to you putting into them out what what they mean you know cuz he reaches out to me and he says I think we can try again you know you wouldn't have a conversation with me and I had an original remember that the same God so that's fine I got my foot in the door Mission which it's a lesson to me cuz we had this conversation it's the future of Tolerance

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a couple weeks now we have some news on that so we did a lecture tour of Australia and the people who organize that made a documentary that we listened to your question and I am somebody that didn't engage with him on the substance of his question but I fired a misfire unemotional misfire on on on on what was really questioning and his motives for asking the question rather not she dressing addressing the point he was making and I think that when I because I didn't know who he was I didn't stop to the Comfort conversation without the memory of my original judgement on him and the conversation went really well strong character to to try to like

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Abandon All preconceived notions from has conversation to start and Brash yeah unfortunately this example of a kind of a signal success has has caused me to die in the end Miss spend a lot of energy source assuming that I could do that on my phone so you haven't deleted your account if no I'm still on Twitter but I will based on this recent episode of fascinated by people and their struggles with social media with like a dick detaching from it reattaching from it getting addicted to it I mean I know so many people that will look at their Twitter at like 1 in the morning before they go to bed and something pisses them off and then they can't sleep what really, I was not I don't consider myself someone who had a real pathology

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I have I don't know 6000 weeks or $7,000 over the course of many years so I'm not I was not tweeting that much I was not even looking that much I was I was fairly disengage and I've never use Facebook as I've never I just use Facebook is kind of a publishing Channel I never engage with comments but I was looking enough and it it was

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one was clearly making me worse person imagine it was I was I was reacting to stuff that I didn't need to react to and it was amplifying certain criticisms and invoices which need not have an amplified and in this in this last case it just turned a just created a huge explosion in my life which I basically torpedoed because of what I saw on Twitter and was just it was like the perfect infomercial for why you don't want to be in and get a chiller machine or vacation how was I'm in the middle of it like the first vacation take with my family for a very long time what's the least a year and and Ron Hawaii and just like I'm supposed to put everything down to be the best father and husband I can be right that was my intention that's what was happening happened for a good solid 24 hours and then I pick up my phone and I

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see that that Reza Aslan and Glenn Greenwald and Ezra Klein had all attack me in the space of an hour right now yeah well I treated I can't even see what I didn't look at what Greenwald it done he was circulating somebody is video about me how I'm I think it was on the races to in that video Reza Aslan blocked me so I can't even see what he attacks me by name but he blocked me so they are so I can't even see what he's trying to text but I just saw the aftermath of that you know lots of notifications coming to me with both of us tag and then Ezra publish this mess I suppose I should back up however painful ETA to describe what happened here but so I had Charles Murray on my podcast a year ago Charles Marie's this this social scientist who published the bell curve back in the 90s which it was a a book about IQ and and success in

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western side is like our own and it's a book where he worries a lot about that the cognitive stratification of society we have a society that selecting more and more for a narrow band of of talents the better of it is very well fairly well captured by what we call like you and there is a kind of winner-take-all situation where people are really and you know what he 500 years ago if you had a very high IQ and you're just pushing a plow next door neighbor you had no real Advantage but but now you can start a hedge fund or you can start a software company and we're seeing this this real shocking disparity in Good Fortune really so he wrote this book it had a chapter on raise which talked about the disparities Indian racial groups and the claim about the source of those disparities was by even the standard tip

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time but certainly the standards up today and Incredibly tepid mealy-mouthed just hand waving it was not this you know here comes the Third Reich Declaration of white supremacy it was undoubtedly there are environmental and genetic reasons for this and we don't understand them and I was just I was just like to just think that is one of the other one on a decision to know what the mix is of of it influences now and that is virtually any honest scientists take on the matter

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and to certainly today I miss us only become more so but that went off like a nuclear bomb and then it was just that was such a it's it's the most of the time I never read the book I just thought this had to be rude just racing coils for him after he should buy the Southern Poverty Law Center in protest against him at Middlebury what's crazy is the whole thing is a propaganda for the superiority of the Asian race and everyone's going to send that

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can students are suing hard because they're discriminated against because they are required to have higher scores cuz they're assumed to be smarter so there's standards for Asian students entering into Harvard is higher than white people wow yes what Asian privilege yeah your grandfather was working on the railroad in California is an indentured servant and a privilege trickle-down lot of factors that lead to IQ to the higher Cuba to ignore with those are to ignore it completely did the district's you cannot look at fax and and in your conversation with Ezra Charles that's what does recline brother that's what I got is that this is this is an ideological issue and that you you it's almost like an impossible subject to breach like you can't even discuss the fact that certain races demonstrate low IQ and then let's look at what could be the cause of those

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even discussing that somehow or another is so inherently racist that it must be ignored or must be silenced and that you you must first concentrate on all the various and justices that have been done to those people who have this lower IQ yeah but let me just take a couple of minutes to close the various doors to hell that are now a jar paper what we just said it will just take a little more contacts go to the as you said Charles Murray went to Middlebury College and was D platform bed he would not only be platform so that usually platform in with the students turning their back to the speaker and shouting and not let anything happen but the professor who invited him who is a liberal Professor who wanted Century debate him she was like when they're leaving the hall they both get physically attacked by a crowd of students Charles was it was not hurt his Host this female Professor got a concussion and a neck injury that that still persist and it's been more than a year later so it's like she said that she was a kid

► 00:44:38

no doubt and and they're driving out in an SUV where it could get some if someone pulls a a stop sign out of the sidewalk and I still got the concrete ball on the end of it and relay the stop sign I miss was happening at one of the most liberal privileged colleges on Earth it's not so anyway to that was a thing that put Marie on my radar after all these many years am I ignoring him and I'd actually and I felt guilty because I had declined to be a part of at least one project because his name was attached right because I just thought that this guy's radioactive he's he's got some white supremacist agenda I believe the the the the lies about him and then I saw this I thought maybe he's the canary in the coal mine or only one of the canary in the coal mine that I had ignored where these as you say there's a certain topics are considered so politically fraud that you cannot discuss them no matter what is true because it's like it's just if you know

► 00:45:39

the firewall between your conversation about reality and these sorts of facts and so so he's been suffering from having transgressed that boundary and so I had him on the on the podcast

► 00:45:55

being fairly agnostic about his his actual social policy commitments and his political concerns and just wanted to talk about the facts until far as we touch them light when it has zero interest in intelligence as measured by IQ although it makes an interesting subject but I hadn't you know I haven't spent much time focused on that and I had truly zero interest in establishing differences between populations with respect intelligence or anything else but I see what's coming I see the fact that that the more we understand ourselves genetically and environmentally the more we will if we go or not looking we will discover differences between groups and the end game for us as a species is not to deny that those differences exist or could possibly exist it's too

► 00:46:52

deny that they have real political implication it would be political political framework we need is a commitment to to Quality across the board and a commitment at treating individuals as individuals there's nobody who's that the average of a population is meaningless with respect to you and that will always be so and and whatever it is and whatever diversity of talents there is two testiclea in various populations we want societies that simply don't care politically about that I mean that that's just it it's just not what it's

► 00:47:33

the are political tolerance of one another and support of one another is not predicated on denying individual differences or even statistical differences across group that can't be because we know that there are people walking around like you know Eli musk who gets out of bed and every morning and does the work of like 4,000 people right and people who just struggling to work at Starbucks and hold down a job and our political system politically and socially than another even the one person that capable of doing massive things that that that that most of the people aren't it's you know when it comes time to to write laws and create institutions that protect that that support human flourishing we we have to engineer times that Ray is all the boats and so in our end and you know there's a legitimate debate

► 00:48:34

about the social policy is it will do that but enter legitimate debate about facts we can debate scientific fact and and you know the results of a psychometric testing or more behavioral genetics that there are relevant to this question of intelligence and we have a good-faith debate about the data and then we can have a good faith debate about social policy that your phone from the data but what's happening on the left now is either at either of those tears of conversation there are just straight-up allegations of racism that hit you the moment you touch certain can I say that that sounds to me

► 00:49:17

then the implications of the argument that the left or opposing will sign it just said cuz if you think about it would be because they're scared that those spots would

► 00:49:35

from which they would be there I have the policy that would reflect those facts and I was in their minds they are marrying those too they are marrying in the notion that if in statistical observance there are very conceited like used between groups and their minds that means the policy should follow from that so it's why there was this thing what he saying where is what he saying is there is no connection between the policy should be and what the facts maybe because of the kind of world we want to live in should have spy to equality regardless of what the scientist saying because one is policy and monies science agree with you on that but I don't think that's necessarily exactly what they're saying what I think what they're saying is what they're doing is they almost feel so guilty that any discussion whatsoever about raced can't be held and less you repeatedly bring up all the instances of racism and suppression that in discrimination that that group has suffered from it's like you can't it doesn't exist as a statistic Island

► 00:50:36

you have to bring everything in together if you don't do that that's where their protest comes from and I think that was one of the things that I got from the conversation wasn't willing to just discuss these issues and completely dismiss this this fact that Asian people score far better there there is is not conceding on the data it's almost as if they fear that the invitation must necessarily follow the policy will also be supremacists in that way I wonder I honestly think that what we talked about before is a big part of it is Ida logical idea Sport and that they're just following back I don't think they're willing to take I think one of those real strength of character that you demonstrate in a debate or any discussion of faxes when uncomfortable Troost rear their ugly had that are counter to your out we are personal position you have to be able to go you got a really good point you've got a good point there something to that I see what you're saying okay this is what my concern would be into

► 00:51:36

I should be a rational real conversation this is what I would worry about and then you what I'm sure say absolutely I would worry about that as well and then you would have the sort of a discussion I do get that from the conversation that I got I got I got this rallying back and forth of ideas rather than two human beings not digging in their heels into the sand just trying to look at the ideas and look at the statistics and look at these studies for what they are and look at Charles Murray and what he's gone through and should we be able to examine the statistical anomaly should be able to examine athletic superiority should we be able to examine superiority that Asian show in mathematics in a lot of the Sciences should we should we be able to or should we just dig our heads in the Sochi we just let them sort themselves out and quietly ignore all the reality I don't know why I should say that I am I fear that if anyone who would go looking for Rachel

► 00:52:36

difference is very lightly motivated motivated by something unethical or unsavory rice I like it like it you could imagine your white supremacist being being super enamored of this the possibility that these day that says yes so right and there's some things that I miss it this was a question I had for Charles Murray on the on that podcast what is the upside down in the Infiniti of of interesting problems we can tackle scientifically why focus on population differences and you know frankly I didn't get a great answer from him and his answer answer is

► 00:53:22

well I think the best version of his answer which I agree with but still it may not justify certain boy is hurting use of attention it is just that if you

► 00:53:32

that there's this massive bias that basically we're all working with a blank slate genetically and therefore any difference you see among people is a matter of environment and so so then you have people have privileged environments and people have environments that that where they're at with the massively under-resourced and so therefore any different representation at the end of the higher echelons of success and achievement in power in our society you know if there's 13% African Americans in the US if you look at the top doctors in hospitals or the top and academics or the you know the Oscar winners are wherever you wherever you want to look for it for 4 achievement if there are less than 13% African Americans in any one of those bins that has to be the result of racism or cyst

► 00:54:34

systemic racism that is the left the left word bias at this moment and it and so it is with Jews for anti-Semitism so it is for women should be up an equal representation of women being a computer software engineers at Google any lack of any disparity there must be the result of either inequitable resources for kids in schools or or at the somewhere along the way or kind of a selection pressure from the top that you know we don't you know we don't like women in that Google or blacks at the Oscars and

► 00:55:14

so that's the submarines concern is if you believe that

► 00:55:19

and I'm at you know this site this is not exactly what he said but this is this is why I believe he thinks but I I could be putting some words into his mouth here but it certainly wouldn't many other people on his side of the debate thing if you believe that you will consistently find racial bias and anti-Semitism in misogyny where it doesn't exist right side like if you if you go look at you go to a hospital that they're like you know the academic departments in the medical schools at the best medical schools are under massive pressure to find real diversity in representation at the highest level you need to find a page I Had A cardiology his black right and if you end you end the fact that you haven't done that is a sign that there's a problem with you and your organization and you are process of hiring now if it's just a case for whatever reason if there are not many candidates faculty of less than 13% for that field or to take the name of the James the Mormon

► 00:56:20

on my way to Google right if it just is the case that women forget about this is this was beyond aptitude this just goes to interest women for whatever reason genetic or environmental are less interested in being software Engineers on average than men are then you been having your 20% women's coding software Google is not the price on Google problem it's just the fact that this is the Pappi of what the population that interests are now we should no doubt racism still exists no doubt massage and and sexism still exist there are there are in the end is proof of this to be found as well but if to assume and absolute uniformity of human of interest and aptitude in every population you could look at

► 00:57:10

is just scientifically irrational that would be a miracle if that works allow me to remind everybody that genes are almost everything we care about our massively influenced by genes not a hundred percent people of taking your summaries of all the rest of his position in relationship to the thing that I would add in the thing where there's some daylight between the two of of me and him on my podcast is

► 00:57:54

this is so

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toxic to be

► 00:58:00

trafficking in population differences with respect to IQ that end and it's not it's not absolutely clear what social policies turn on really nailing down these different so you could go let me to take it even more toxic is an example perhaps you could decide you know the Roma in Europe that the gypsies very isolated beleaguered to the community who knows how inbred it is and I don't know if I'm interested this is a this is an outlier Community like anyone who's going to want to do in a mass of IQ testing on the Roma what's the what's the point of doing that right like you know it's like you're eating it it seems like a just a kind of political Time Bomb to devote resource is not way because we know that the policy you want whatever anyway whatever this the mean IQ is of any group the policy you want

► 00:59:01

is to give everyone whatever opportunities they can Avail themselves up so we want we want people to have the best schools they can use and then we'll find people who need to be in in more remedial schools for whatever reason or you know people that like no they won population that has 10 times the amount of Dyslexia then another population say and they'll be undoubtedly genetic reasons for that you know there may be environmental reason for that as well but there is we need to be able to cater to all of those needs with just this is fundamental commitment to Goodwill and equality without having panic that will find stuff that just blows everything up but on the left there there's the sense that the only way to move forward toward equality is to lie about what is it scientifically possible and demon eyes anyone who won't lie with you

► 00:59:54

that's the ideological

► 00:59:57

point that this is a new thing though right I mean relatively speaking this this hard nose dance from the left of the equality of outcome and and the only reason why they wouldn't be 50% women or 50% black or 50% and it just pick any March life group the only reason why I wouldn't be even across the board with all other races is because of discrimination this is a fairly new stand Sly and they were fairly well publicised Larry Summers got fired from Harbor to let Larry Summers with the president of Harvard and he's a famous economist and he gave a speech for what she was fired is there might be a little more color as to why he was fired up whose it was more fired because he he wants the wheels start to come off he didn't hit alienated enough people that he didn't have friends to put on a prop him up but but the thing that pull the wheels off was that he gave a speech and he said

► 01:00:50

we know there are our differences in in the bell curve that describe in a mathematical aptitude between men and women and this explains why there many more top-flight male mathematicians and Engineers than women and it's not that they even it's not that the the means of the of the bell curves are different so they have the means to be the same but there could be more variants of the tails are thicker in the case of of the mail but felt or so at the absolute and both of them below and in the high-end you have many more people so you know if you're going to ask me to what's the in the same song by population how many people do you have at the 99.999 percentile of that aptitude in math say it could be that you have and there's a fair amount of data to show there's many more men at the Tails than women right and and that's true for Grandma

► 01:01:51

Masters in chess right it's just the way it's just a this is not a and it may be true for something like me to playing pool you know I'm in their there they're just differences and that may not be entirely environmental almost certainly are not entirely environmental it's a big issue in the world of pool men and women play separately and is no reason physically why they shouldn't have enough it's not a strength right but women are allowed to play in men's tournaments but they never win. Jean balukas was a woman who's she was like one of the only women ever compete and beat Menchie's like an extreme outlier in this is like I want to say was in the late 70s early 80s and other than that there's been a few women that have done well in tournaments but when they come to Major League professional pool tournaments they're almost always one my man I meant when I say almost I mean like 99.9%

► 01:02:43

male-to-female transgender athlete in the weight lifting category that's a whole nother involved in the women's competition the Commonwealth Games at the time of her joining haven't yet put down a rule as to testosterone levels in the females competing and so this male-to-female transgender person qualified in the female games and was as you'd expect winning in all of the games and was the front-runner and destined to win the competition as a male-to-female transgender person and the only reason I would have led to a huge crisis in the Commonwealth Games because they were some resistance to this notion and of course the question that arises this fat man up on that tree with high levels of testosterone for the only reason it didn't lead to the crunch time and that was a huge Scandal of all the ultra winning is that she injured herself in the competition at my shit accident yeah I saw that

► 01:03:48

but because I'm actually gone through this extensively because there was a woman who is used to be a man was competing in the Mixed Martial Arts against women and speeding the shit out of them and and I was saying that this is this is a mistake and that you're you're looking at so whether someone should be legally able to identify as a woman portrayed themselves a woman absolutely and you have the freedom to become a woman in quotes in our society yes but you can't deny biological nature and there's physiological advantages to the male frame there's it specifically when it comes to Combat Sports that's my wheelhouse I'm an expert I understand there's a giant difference between the amount of power that a man and a woman can generate and if you're telling me that a guy living 30 years of his life as a man that's that's essentially like a woman being on steroids for 30 years then getting off and then having regular women being forced to compete with her and / try to pretend this a Level Playing Field it is not there's a difference in the shape of the hips

► 01:04:49

size of shoulder the density of the bone the size of the Fist went that's a giant factor in your ability to generate power is a size of your fist and you have Cleo girls getting beaten up by someone who used to be a man but people came down on me harder than anything that I've ever stood up for in my life never in my life. I think it's going to be a situation I said hey I don't think I should be able to get his penis removed and beat the shit out of women and that people like you're out of line but that's the same thing of the summary of the Seacoast online this is what during this whole thing she said she this person who had turned into a woman has always been a woman and I said but she was a man 4:30 ish was no She's Always a Woman I go even when she had sex with a woman and fathered a kid and she says yes even then I got work done cuz you're just talking nonsense this is

► 01:05:48

come in the mail to claim this moral High Ground of being the most Progressive and they're always looking to step on top of anybody who's less Progressive than and complain in in Proclaim superiority and this is the ideological sport this is the ideas for that it that you see with when people are playing Just ping pong with arthia they're not listen you need to listen to experts in in that when you especially talk about martial arts to the difference is so profound and the results are so critical because you're talking about a sport where the objective goal did the ghost clear it's very clear beat the fuck out of the other person in front of you so anything that would give you an advantage and beating the fuck out of that person should be really looked at very carefully and not just thrown through the the lens of this Progressive ideological filter that we're going through right now cuz that's that's what it is and that's how people are looking at it

► 01:06:49

he is with weight lifting as well when would transgendered athletes going to weightlifting competitions the male-to-female transgender athletes are overwhelmingly dominant I mean is this is this a coincidence or it's no it's someone who had fucking testosterone pumping through their system and and and a y chromosome their whole life and now all the sudden we're supposed to say no she's a woman she said she's dainty she's got size 14 ft she's got the gorilla hands against other women legally she's a woman that's right she goes through that dense to transition but I think we have to recognize and I think even many traditional feminists are making this but yes to the anger of the trans Community the saying hold on what you're doing in this way is actually we fought so hard and so long for these female spaces where we have a space of our own I get out people that used to be men are coming into those places I should

► 01:07:49

literally beating the crap out of us places yes experts if they're calling app on almost all transition doctors surgeons or are people that have transition themselves when they speak to actual board-certified endocrinologist some of the only do it off record but one of them is in one of the big mixed martial arts Publications Ramona krutzik I believe she's the same way does it it it actually doing this transition like from male to female you're forcing your your be putting estrogen into the system so the bone density change that would ordinarily take place if you remove someone's testicles and stop at the production of testosterone

► 01:08:44

estrogen preserves bone density do you actually retaining the mail bone density there's so many problems with this and that and then one of the other things they say well owe the Olympics Olympics allowed the Olympics are very ideologically based there's not a whole lot of signs to this this transition thing of allowing male to female athletes to compete in the Olympics and there's a extreme amount of corruption in the Olympics as it is with the ioc being in bed with water the world anti-doping agency and the way they handle this Russian Scandal news Russian Scandal that was highlighted in that fantastic documentary Icarus yeah I was like damn fucking crazy Olympics are not to be trusted that is a gigantic multibillion-dollar business where the athletes get paid zero money it is inherently corrupt from the top down no doubt about it so today to call Palm them is to see who should be competing as a woman fuck off they did they're not the experts this is Miss is not something and this is coming from

► 01:09:44

who one of my jobs is examining and commentating on fights that is a big part of what I do I understand fight and I know what it looks like when a man beating the shit out of a woman and that's what it looked like when this person was fighting women is there was a massive physical Advantage massive and I took my words out of context they quoted of all these different gender transition doctors it's saying that there's no science behind that's in the science behind it being totally fair and totally it's just not in people know it everyone knows how they looked they couldn't put Cris Cyborg against this guy and give him a run for his money with a similar situation like that in Texas on you give what you know about the girl who was she was born a girl she's transitioning to a boy in high school taking testosterone but in taxes the only allowed to compete as a girl

► 01:10:45

so she's dominated the Texas state wrestling championship two years in a row and it's horrific because she's on steroids she's on testosterone doesn't matter because they're testing chromosome I'm sure she's a woman she was born so because the fact that she's transitioning to be a boy they don't give a shit you're a woman you're not going to wrestle against men you're a girl you're not going to wrestle wrestle against boys so they have allowed her under extreme protesting it's terrible she wants to compete or he I should say wants to compete as a boy they won't let him they say no you were born a girl you have to compete as a girl so when he competes everybody Boos it's awful it's fucking awful I mean it's it's it's really devastating question for you that way around if it's female-to-male transition somebody that used to be a woman that transitions to a man and wants to compete with them and they don't have it at all today

► 01:11:38

compete Matt mean it happens all the time at Jujitsu there's any special in Jiu-Jitsu in particular because it's such a technique Bay starred but it is possible there's if there's also a woman and Germaine de randamie who's world-class mixed martial artists who is multiple-time World Muay Thai Champion a man and knock them out so crazy video about a real man KO tum of those straight right it's it is possible for them to win if their skill level is so far superior that overcomes the inherent strength advantages but a woman to male transition would be a severe disadvantage Hansen natural male they can have it wrong to female athlete compete with other females because they have an appointment list. Yes would you be a female to male competing with men yes because I don't

► 01:12:43

but here's the problem in the consent is her running the other direction I need a man if she's so choose Atlantic I'm not opposed to bull riding them you know lobbying to get bull riding outlawed but if you want to be so fucking stupid that you climb on top of a 2000 pound angry anime go for it then you should be able to do whatever you want I think you should be able to jump out of a fairly good air on airplanes and if you want to parachute you should be able to risk your life parachuting to the difference lies in just a massive advantages and then there's a massive transitioning from male to female female to male here's the other problem female to male you have to take testosterone you can't legally take testosterone and compete it's been a native giant issue in mixed martial arts because for the longest time there was a loophole in the loophole was testosterone therapy and they were allowing testosterone replacement therapy for male athletes that were either older

► 01:13:44

or it's it was a it was a symptom of having pituitary gland damage which comes from head trauma which come which means really essentially your career should be over your body stop producing hormones correctly and that's a very common issue with people that have been in war people have been blown up by IEDs people that have been hit a lot even soccer player so a lot of times show diminished levels of testosterone and growth hormone because of pituitary gland damage so you wouldn't even allow that so a female to male would be in a whole nother problem in Combat Sports because it's not legal for you to take testosterone and can't eat or bring this full circle back to me sitting at the pool just about to destroy my vacation on Twitter so how long did you spend working on this again this was your wife must have another family from

► 01:14:45

are schools if you like but my daughter had a friend not a couple that stick that way that my wife is socialized with and having another couple they're forced me to sort of put on my social face at dinner and a chinchilla rabbit that weighs put it on your social face get it actually changes your psychology me like if you have if you keep you have to drop your problem in order to be a normal saying person with people you don't know all that well you're actually a happier more normal person if it had just been me and my wife a dinner while I'm dealing with this blow up I just know it just never would have the cloud wouldn't would have laughed so anyway

► 01:15:27

I was trying I was trying not to engage and so I didn't want to have to write anything new to deal with this this is what I have you decided to just attack on on my intellectual and moral integrity and so when I saw this flying I realize I had this email exchange with him at the end of which I said listen if you if you continue to slander me this is the head feels like a yearbook for previously cuz we didn't do a podcast because we we had talked publicly about maybe sorting this out on a podcast a year ago but I found the exchange with him by email so you can such bad faith I found him so evasive and dishonest and again do you just plain audiological ping pong as you said and not actually engaging my points that I said listen if you if you lie about this

► 01:16:29

Publishers email because I think the world should see how you operate as a journalist and has an editor I like he had to he had declined to publish a far more mainstream opinion defending me and Marie in the inbox me that it was just it was truly you know slanderous and misleading everything he's publish on this topic and he has a huge platform I wish to do it so red box with pleasure as well but it is you know once you see how the sausage gets made on many of these things for the news item you can see that there's very little journalistic screw people are in the background there so I am I was at Matt didn't want it have to spend my time on vacation writing a retort to this thing but I felt like I had to respond again this is an illusion it's like a sheer confection of looking at Twitter and if I hadn't been looking at Twitter I wouldn't have felt I had to respond and So I responded

► 01:17:30

the laziest possible way which I just I just published the email exchange cuz it's already written I don't have to write anything if I just like you just hit send and so there's no contacts to them as to why you did this I'm massively underestimated the amount of work even my own fans would have to do to understand why I was so angry and that email exchange so I came off like the angry bastard in the email exchange and he came off as this you know just open-minded ready to dialogue I wear as if you follow the plot and you saw what he had published about me and and memory previously this thing that has hit is the now in the Haight watch page of sdlc he was being totally disingenuous and evasive and just I was just meet you at all and not realizing

► 01:18:30

it was definitely mistake to publish female change just because I told him I was going to do it in advance if he kept kept it up it was just it was totally counterproductive because it was if he was following reasonable in the original article what seems like a lot of work but it was cast

► 01:19:04

your hand seeing this now this is my last podcast is not there 2 weeks ago and you know it was basically as bad as I was expecting and I basic I feel that I met the person who I thought I was dealing with in the email exchange and he was fundamentally unresponsive to any of my points and you know how do you say Joe just trying to score political points to his toward his audience and the thing is he has it it would that mean there's many of their many symmetries here but one crucial one is that he has an audience that doesn't care about whether or not he's responsive to the thing that the his his opponent Oriental I could have just said right there not tracking it by that metric their tracking it by are you making the political points do you have your hands on are you know and and are you pushing the right but

► 01:20:06

and so he's talking about racism and you know just that your white privilege and I'm granting him all of them to listen to Let Me Tell You Why That's not relevant of to my concerns and what happened here with Marie I'm everything you're going to say about the history of lynching I'm going to Grant you right that's not the way we don't worry there's no daylight between us there and the other thing is I have an audience that is stuck airs massively about following the logic of conversation if somebody makes a point to be good in response to me my audience is like we know okay Sam what the fuck are you going to say to that right and if I if I dropped that ball I lose massive points right where is I'm often find myself in conversation with people who don't have to care about those kind of audience that was the one I had one that would this at Walmart about a him honestly representing

► 01:21:05

in this case the doctrine of is never lost cause until this day I don't even know who this bloke is it is some crazy guy yeah whatever you're an Uncle Tom pees when he started most romantic and I could sit here right now and play that game with you the game of ping-pong without conceding anything and this is where I went really well because it was stripped away from all of that bullshit and we had a genuine conversation it still to this day very easy for me to

► 01:22:00

to play the chunin obviously missed in school those points especially because some of what I've been through and school those points and just get locked in a essentially it's illegal but it's it's a it's it's it's not an intellectual conversation it's it's it's a game off you know who is who is basically checking the right boxes in their own little confirmation bias to their own audience interest me but it's frustrating but you're also the best person on the other side of that conversation videos on YouTube Merry Christmas miss against people who are playing this game is meeting them on your interview shows you the most in the UK where they're pretending to be more behind than they are and it in my dad is going to find him a question that sort of pulls back the mask on the theocrat and it's hilarious

► 01:23:02

you're that one video that you published on your blog I've sent two dozens of my friends the one video where there's this guy is addressing his enormous group of people and he's talking about is this radical Islam or is this Islam for that that was having a conference in Norway that was just straight up his lesson jihadist addressing the crowd of seemingly mainstream Muslims in Norway in but he just buy it by show of hands you know is it in extremis if we think of on stage of homosexuals apostates me not the whole thing is is this is lommers is radical Islam ideology blinker statistical data on the subject of homosexuality in the United Kingdom. Last year asking into poles gauging public attitudes towards the first asked how many Muslims in the UK fine

► 01:24:02

homosexuality morally acceptable 0% this is by the way by a professional polling companies not to some students devised the poll on Twitter a professional polling company founded 0% of British Muslims responded to a post saying that I found on the sexuality morally acceptable another poll was conducted and that wasn't an ICM poll asking where the British believe homosexuality should be criminalized will remain legal

► 01:24:35

I think there's roughly 52% 52% if my memory serves me correctly said I'll put you some of them said that they would wish for homosexuality to be criminalized and of course what is criminalization of homosexuality mean on the shuttle and traditional Islamic jurisprudence we know that it's punished by death so these are these this is scientific data from gauging Massachusetts British was not to choose towards homosexuality but the blinkers will will kick in and refuse to see that truth in these on islamist unfortunately my daughter with Sam we talked about this that there are these going to want to do activity want to take over Country Inn & fulston version of his life then that's underneath that there's a a softer Landing of very very conservative stroke fundamentalist attitudes that unfortunately have become widespread and here is an example of it that is that is being gauged by its scientific polling methodology that tells us there's a problem and unfortunately if one was a speak in this way

► 01:25:35

especially in in Europe what is received by my own political driving that liberals center-left and further one is met with denial and pulled a big simply full release fax a quarter of British Muslims when asked about the massacre at the Charlie hebdo offices in Paris a quarter said that those attacks of justifiable they sympathize with the attackers as opposed to the victims who were the stuff at the shot at the office it's so this is what led you

► 01:26:08

to be put on the Southern Poverty Law not to try to empower those most invoices that are seeking to challenge this will be so it's about to choose and and carve out a space and if if you know if one can do that with Catholicism in Europe in adults will reformation and end up with an Enlightenment and then. We secularism in the west when I often say is American liberals a very happy challenging their own Bible Belt and yet we have a car and we can all communities and if I'm attempting to replicate the equivalent of challenging the Bible that we didn't Muslim communities it means addressing these issues and yet they brought to themselves the right to challenge the Bible dealt with in America and yet if we was a challenge reichelderfer on Bell in Europe without any cold bigots and islamophobes is this is just static

► 01:27:08

moving has it been adjusting and changing is there any sort of a recognition that there's an issue with this so you know the emergence of Isis really did bring it to the fool some of the voice is it also did increase the hysteria from the far left because they began panicking thinking you were going to lose this debate and that's where I noticed that labeling became even stronger real how much is did wake up a lot of people to to the challenges we are facing it because so many European born and raised Moses went over to join Isis and of course think about it in this sense the most infamous and notorious execution Michelle that I think was erroneously called the Jihadi Beatles in the price because actually it really does it's an insult to the beach with the true horror near these guys body John in the execution it basically the media face of Isis execution sell little British Muslims and that should tell you something

► 01:28:07

like every variable that the that the far left once did Marshall to explain this phenomenon like lack of educational opportunity lack of Economic Opportunity lack of social integration mental illness you can all you can find people who had massive opportunity I miss you I feel like you were telling me you weren't a jihadist but you are an islamist but let me you're a person who that's what I'm basically playing a game he want to be your guy get his he's he's see somebody who back to the Superman they can run and he can run for political office he hasn't been elected yet but he know he should be the quarterback of the football team in this context is a candidate for recruitment group in our lifetime the West Harris could at least in living memory is Isis and the worst cell indices the execution cell came from a fully developed

► 01:29:05

once I was out of town first world country and that was Britain and Mama time was he the leader of the execution sell graduated from the University of Westminster was given as a young child was given political Asylum by Britain because his family what Kuwaiti and they fled the invasion of Kuwait by said I'm insane the country that the West liberated and he turned against that country so he had every reason to like Britain Britain and this man turned against this country that helped him and his family and his nation was he captured or did he bring his dad want one of them has been listening to listen to his rationale is it was not that they had the other wife I forgot his name but he was just interviewed 10

► 01:30:01

dismissive I will wait to trial in the antique on a copy interview short he seemed a little put out that she was a woman literally never laid eyes on her I was

► 01:30:34

yeah it's so intense and it's such at like as you say radioactive subject to it's just it's just fascinating to watch white liberal progressives just Scamper away from this what but the flip the flip side of the Isis thing it has been the refugee crisis which has made which is really empowered both extremes frankly that are left in the far right so you have the far right obviously With The Wind in their sales worrying about this influx of of people from the Middle East and and you know & Beyond North Africa and just the change of guv guv culture in their societies and a lot of these concerns are plausible but because only the far-right and a few other decent people like Douglas Murray we'll talk about the possible concerns that the space is just been vacated so you just have the far right that far apart right populous politics being and enabled and then you have this

► 01:31:37

delusional open borders left that won't I told Sam about this but I was having a conversation with someone as an executive at YouTube and I asked him why someone got a community guidelines strike on your account because they posted up a video on their playlist that they enjoyed of Sam Harris and Douglas Murray engaged in conversation when I go why would that get you a community guidelines strike in this woman said because it's hate speech I got a problem with the last name was Marie causing the problem be executive acquired YouTube and she said it's hate speech and I told her I go into it did you listen to it I know you didn't listen to I got this is stunning that you would just say it's hate speech that you would just be so dismissive of it so quickly and she talk to me as if I was her employee like I was not allowed to question her and she was just going to say what she said and I was going to shut up and it was a fascinating conversation

► 01:32:36

I am vacation nobody was I I did a podcast with Douglas and apparently it got flagged someone else put it up on their accountant got flagged as hate speech I'm going to price for this and I've been having really in for it on social media for a couple of months now and I call it a digital blind-spot there's a cultural bias on social media because of any sense that you lazy because because social media is essentially a California invention and we're in the home state of where most of this came from it it's very Californian base 12u which has a lot about white supremacy and doesn't care about many other forms of bigotry they exist out there in the rest of the world which by the way is the majority of the world so on Twitter right now cause there's only enough this is been banned Tony Robinson has been banned as in taking off now he's the former leader of the British English Defence League which was at one time York's largest

► 01:33:38

Muslim Street protest group he doesn't support Twitter is a private company I can choose remove everyone for whatever reason we will judge it for the same consistency of thought he was ostensibly remove the point being that still to this day and a before people misquote me and completely say it on now defending hate speech and and it's right to speak with hateful views on Twitter this is my wife did you know that his belong which is a known and recognized terrorist organisation to forget hate speech for a moment I known and recognize terrorist organization that believes in bombing babies on boxes as a form of resistance they still have accounts on Twitter

► 01:34:36

this is the this is the blind spot and I flag Twitter about this on many an occasion this is the cultural plans for this is the digital blind spot that the that the dude sitting in California and where who is monitoring this stuff and it's probably more than one person they don't give a shit that there's some brown person in the Gaza Strip that believes it's okay to kill Jewish babies they don't give a shit because it's a brown person saying it in the name of a slammed what they care about is a non-violent yet says stupid things guy cuz he's white call Tommy Robinson in England on Milo yiannopoulos saying stuff that they always say that touches their sensitivities and it's so into that she too lazy to flag. Immediately and to borrow it from social media because you're comfortable with it you recognize white supremacy doesn't take any effort to recognize that you don't have to invest in studying this stuff to know what white supremacy is it takes a bit of effort to study Brown people's ideas that you are unfamiliar with unrecognized

► 01:35:38

terrorist organization is free the operating on social media specifically on Twitter Twitter has and I think this is a valid concern is that when you have people there saying hateful things and you have people that are saying whether it's white supremacy or whatever even if it's stupid that the problem is there's a rallying Cry of trolls that follow behind them and it builds up momentum it gets pretty stunning and that was what was happening with my luck and by silencing Milo off Twitter they have essentially removed him from the public discourse you don't hear about him anymore because of this because of these things countries which organizational hierarchies and plan means of distributing distributing their ideas across entire populations physically fighting in Wars right now such as Hezbollah in Syria killing Sony

► 01:36:38

Rebels imagine that you are able to Rally a mall in Pakistan blasphemy as an example what it takes for some person on social media to accuse another personal but the very next day running happens all the time but because these california-based social media companies off of of the of the cultural implications of those sorts of organizations and groups and lists of Terror they aren't that this completely no no barring on any of them activity there's also the same thing that you have with YouTube and with a lot of these other social media organizations and companies that they don't have to respond or give you any reasons they can say it violates our terms but what are those terms Will turns only listen to leave a like no hate speech okay well what's hate speech what what do you say what is what are you what is your clear policy what are your guidelines how does someone avoid violating your guidelines they don't say and how is the present United States not have not violated those

► 01:37:37

demonetization is another way that they do I remove the ability to put advertising on on a conversation that they don't like and it doesn't have to be like my conversation with Douglas Murray wisdom without any explanation nothing remotely remotely hateful about it if you don't like hate speech then Brown Band brown people who are those are advocating more than just I hate speech but I keep reaching voluntarism yeah it's a strange time for this man because it's it's also a time where it's at you can communicate so instantaneously it's fantastic in that regard you can get ideas out so quickly but these the hubs of information like where the end

► 01:38:38

play she gets distributed are there controlled by people that I don't think I ever knew they were going to have the sort of responsibility I don't think you I think you're seeing that with Zuckerberg and these trials are the study of the speech's that is given in front of Congress like when you see him on television talk about it you get the sense that this is a guy that never prepared for this had no idea this is going to happen and then all the sudden from simple social media platform that was supposed to be friends sharing photos and just talking about girls who was Twitter made Twitter was essentially just you know me and remember the old days at Twitter it would be you would use your name it like is doing this like Sam understand Harris like Sam Harris is at the movies you would say that almost if you were in a third person if their original form

► 01:39:31

writing what they thought and it just became and then became ideology and then it became sharing links It sharing links and interesting articles is a big part of it but to me that's the only good part of it now like I got it like a I've just discovered that and that was at the most of my attachment to a genuinely use it as a curated music by Paolo interesting people tweet interesting stuff and I and I consume it that way but noticing was coming back at me in the attic I put something out you know what the podcast and then I look to see how it's being received on Twitter and I don't tend to do that in other forms I don't really look at Facebook comments much I don't look at YouTube and YouTube Cesspool right inside the side even if there for you that the comments are horrible

► 01:40:29

everywhere else but one thing I found it you can change that your settings in Twitter where you you screen out people who don't have Twitter egg photos I don't have a real photo you can swing at people who haven't had their email confirmed and I think I just did those two things and like 90% of hate went away it was amazing like I just thought you should know that accept I think it's better to not actually even look at that was coming back with you will have to take it off your phone now looking at it will be very happy with that in this way but I mean, I can't say that cuz I should probably not have sometimes but but I told that same kind of interesting cuz I took a stance on the Syria strikes

► 01:41:36

I just think that some involved I told there any free Android I think we had to take a stance that succeeded where Obama failed in and making sure that red line was maintained that they use of chemical weapons count be tolerated even if it is symbolic even Saudi symbolic I think sometimes symbolism is important so I took that stuff and I got a lot of love on Twitter call host on the plane channels on my radio show on ABC right repeatedly occupy why I think it's important that we don't allow for chemical weapons and that used to come to realize the entire world and so it was interesting cuz I posted the sky news clip of meat so talking to Cameron about my reasons for this and I have this screen grab on the reaction

► 01:42:33

these are two extremes symbol on his profile is it's no wonder they are kicking his butt Spacey same reason for calling for that is because I'm supporting Isis against the operation the guy immediately have to respond to him as court at last done and he says you not see dumbass magic is funded by your Uncle Tom how's the weather like in there cat he's Cowboys

► 01:43:28

oops I said something like that upset the far-right and far-left against each other and you just like sneak away while they're fighting the extremes

► 01:43:51

they're equally irrational and the fact that you could be at the epicenter of each probably both of their problems that you're you're a covert jihadist and an anti-muslim bigot it seems like there's more conspiracy theories in in terms of like what someone's actual motivation for what they're saying now than ever before 2 because it's so easy to express them so someone could say no you know he's far ride or no you're you're you're just trying to support Isis like this this is disability to like find some deferius reason for your actions lowest price you know don't you know Steve was supposed to applying the principle of Charity so if Joe said something I can actually think no I don't trust this guy I respect him and then I'm going to reduce his opinion to the worst possible interpretation that he could possibly mean and then use that against him or I could continue to ask what you mean by that because I'm assuming you're a good decent human being in origin

► 01:44:53

she means something I haven't yet quite Ross and then Also to clarify your own opinion in your own words and I think it's unfortunate that many of our conversations today in the far left is as guilty of it as the far-right and I'd like to think which is part of that watches Nest the blinds them from actually committing this very same Injustice they choose the far-right of committing and that is a it's the same bigotry in in a mirror image of the bigotry of low expectations the lowest spectations they have the Muslims are somehow unable to adhere to Cullman decent liberal secular democratic values and so it's actually playing all conversations Day funny we were able to entering conversations and that allow for you know that honest honest conversation but we say that and then you try to replicate success of the number of occasions and frustrated while you are one of a kind of clutch in a divorce I found one reason why would

► 01:45:48

which it seems like this is a side effect of this increased ability to communicate and that just it there's so much noise and said that there's so much going on this is the most fantastic time for the distribution of information it's never been time it's so easy to distribute information in human history that's really crazy but I don't think we know what to do with it and I think it did when you deal with people have such rigid ideologies and they find this incredibly easy ability to express these ideologies there's just so much clashing it's just so much so much noise and nonsense and when someone says something that they know that they don't have to back up with facts they know that they're there people wear on their Position will support it you say the right keywords you know right and privilege whatever you want to say and then boom you're going to get a whole slew of people like those two people in your your mentions battling it out with each other you just like kind of picking fights and starting his little fires and letting other people go to war

► 01:46:45

I was speaking to my friend talk about this and we've democratized truth and when you do that way the other thing you mentioned about sports Combat Sports and your expertise in that field if I come back at you and spoke at you with as much Authority as you claim in your expertise with having absolutely no history in that expertise whatsoever and assumed that I have a nice equal right to an unresearched claim to truth in my opinion as you do and who has a lifetime of experience in that field as a problem that I'm waiting to myself this notion this this this kind of belief that my opinion though I have an equally legal right to express it but does it mean to carry the same weight as your opinion when it comes to Combat Sports and it shouldn't happen with the expression that opinion as a person of color as a closet. In Spanish

► 01:47:48

what you want on an equal footing about Combat Sports which only a mad person who hasn't had that history in Commerce what would think with our gates themselves a ride to do service social media I think has allowed for that to happen but I'm talking about I think is roughly 20 11th about the dangers of this happening in social media dividing us will I say now that that's if I was a pitch that title today at 10 with the pitch not Ted Talk today it wouldn't be accepted because it's not something you now it's doable to say we want you to speak about this on and it's not online but if people watched it today I think how nice day

► 01:48:45

hopefield moment where everyone thought Google Facebook and Twitter and January social media and also tech companies would like the good guys that these companies won't actually companies that they will decide against the corporate world and it sounds I think you mentioned soccer but hopefully come to this moment now web symbolized by his test in the Congress that the honeymoon. Is over people now if you him in quite a million square d as a CEO of a very rich company as opposed to my side against the wall if you know and that's how slow and don't do evil but I was just at Ted and will give you a sense of how far the rod has spread here so I was I found myself a dinner sitting next to a neuroscientist who thought that it was

► 01:49:48

and just as recline thing followed me around to Ted and his house because many people have listened to the podcast and he thought Charles Murray should have been physically attacked at Middlebury is a neuroscientist academic getaway impeccable person otherwise I met him he was after we went up having a fight at dinner over it I think it was somewhat Chagrin by having Express that opinion but I mean that's how how emotionally hijack people are buy this issue and but it's a that's incredible it's new it's no the left advocating for violence this is very new to me and I always felt like the left was non-violent that the whole idea behind being Progressive like non-violence was was a genuine aspect of that Free Speech free speech is fine as long as you

► 01:50:48

same speech that I disagree with and non-violence sure unless we need to use violence which is like in the people that are saying it like if you we watch these and Tifa people like Jesus Christ the most incompetent violent people you've ever seen your life but this videos of antiva they had the got together and decided to train and prepare for violence and so they're doing these martial arts classes they have people teaching like holy shit like at the average high school kid could fuc you guys up like this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life but it's almost like they're they realize that there is not that much danger in what they're doing and they can kind of play with danger they can play with violence we can put the masks on there that you know they're not in Israel their internet with the Gaza Strip

► 01:51:44

before I did my monsters at the NFC Southwest has been embroiled in a strike at the moment that this might some and some of the students came out in stripe fall that students defending the professors and I put the ring preventing students from attending classes and black electric want you to cross the striped lines to go in to teach her students a white male Public School educated very very middle-class protester far left physically attractive female black professor so don't leave suddenly gone is the white privilege. Is the male attacking a female

► 01:52:36

I would have thought you would have had the right spell like at Dollar Tree

► 01:52:53

crazy this is crazy crazy world where in man this is do you are you optimistic about the future

► 01:53:04


► 01:53:08

I say that because it's going to take a lot of times work and I don't think that it on lifetime much is going to change I think maybe for the Next Generation what what is it the picture of how do you conceive of your job at the moment and and what it what is the status quo besides France and Isis Islamic state is fading from most people's memory now I miss you even mind I'm all done spending much less time thinking about it because it seems to fit right about penguins published by the biggest publishing house when I came to publish in the US I approach publishing houses but it was Bin Laden was killed and so when we approached 10:20 whatever publishing houses problem solved they all said no they said they said we think and we wish it comes with 5 years but problem solved now there's not a problem anymore and and

► 01:54:08

it's so if your expertise and I don't have been consumed by this subject all my life and there are a few people on this planet that I would take seriously on this subject outside especially of quit in organizations they have some really good people that I know the more we regularly speak so I would say it's all these publishing houses I can assure you 100% this problem is going to come back around in a fall Westway than you can ever have imagined this is before I just came along and none of them believe me of course well then happened my book and then she'll probably try some very small Publishing House in the USA has done quite well for them but the point of the story was ice ice is coming around and people will send me like oh my God where did this come from those of us who have been monitoring the situation you this was going to come back around very very heavy now. My sister being pushed back then and this is where the story so to the point of the story is we go to resist the temptation to believe the problem has been sold because the

► 01:55:09

organization known as Isis which isn't a bureaucracy has been full back but the ideology upon which that organization was built I'm still very much alive and it's still strong what kind of did while the whole world was focused on Isis was explained that opportunity to rebuild and regroup and they've been rebuilding in Syria now they are stronger than they have ever being even on the bin Laden because For the First Time in the history of that organization they are firmly embedded within the Syrian population has a genuinely kind of viewed by the people that they were fighting to be harmful as any groceries resistance organisation was up before that I was seen as a terrorist group that was like they can better themselves in the Syrian Civil War they can better themselves in North Africa East Africa and in Pakistan and they are resurgent and they are grooming Hamza Bin Laden who is bin Laden Son and The Grooming him for leadership

► 01:56:09

and I spend the time will come maybe in a couple of months maybe in a couple years when they announced Hamza Bin Laden is a new leader of al-Qaeda, Nate Sammons watery when they do that once they grooming is being complete and assume that isn't killed up until then all of the fragments of what remains of Isis will probably join I'm kinda under Hamza Bin Laden and you have a stronger than ever before I'm kinda ization we got to remember that we never expected my sister, don't quite it will come back with a vengeance what is the the politics between the remnants of Isis Isis and Al Qaeda problem of the biggest off the bin Laden died because they didn't they had pledged allegiance to Bin Laden and the new leader of all kind of animals watery is by all accounts on charismatic and he's a he's a pediatrician

► 01:57:08

Bin Laden have the coolest pediatrician Bin Laden clearly had the Charisma the wealth the presents the look she had all of it that's why he doesn't is Juarez get a compatibility test doesn't say if the card is for mices set us a lottery the current leader we pledged allegiance to be a lot and we owe you nothing you know Amir leader if Hamza Bin Laden comes back into as the leader of al-Qaeda is so that problem because those remnants of Isis have a loyalty to the bin Laden name and the bin Laden family and they remember what they consider that Glory Days fighting on the on the bin Laden

► 01:57:55

that's not nice to hear that's no good no. The problem has not gone away I can tell you that the problem and it is the problem is the Audiology and it will not be dealt with until we deal with this ideology that is why it's so frustrating to see under Obama's presidency challenging this problem they adopted the term al-qaeda-inspired extremism extremism that inspired al-qaida and this is to the purpose of political correctness you talk this time in the state department official that we're fighting across the world we are fighting al-qaeda-inspired extremism my phone organization has started a caliphate espousing organization that believes in their ideal caliphate that guy should be killed I Don't Force It should be stoned to death they were there before all kind of this ideology has been there before

► 01:58:56

it was one of a long line of groups that came as a result of these let me start over here we go to start focusing on the ideology itself not the physical groups that spring up from it now there's a another layer to the ideology that is all that is even more well subscribed that represents social and political problems so free to do so late as you said there are conservative Muslims who don't support Al-Qaeda they're not jihadist a but they can't they would honestly say Bin Laden doesn't represent my brand of Islam but these are still people who will Who will say that homosexuals should be killed it's nice outside it's like that there's a parent allies against a quote extremism can still be people with so it with with religiously mandated social attitudes that just not be assimilated in Cosmopolitan societies so

► 01:59:49

people who are worse worse than worse than a kind of inspired extremism there's just this notion that on the left and then this came out of Obama's mouth and it came out of Clinton's mouth that's largely why she's wasn't president

► 02:00:04

it's not it's just a generic extremism right so that like in the same sentence that you have to worry about the caliphate you have to talk about abortion doctors being killed in the US last once every 15 years President Obama refuse to use the what is the Mystic Street how to make it one of the elements in which he was correctly critical of Obama was and I was at the time vocally critical of Obama's reluctance to use the word islamist extremism no problem you know about white supremacist Audiology we don't mean the old white people are supremacists you know what we were doing here is is actually at riveting precisely specifically won't be Audiology is and believes in white supremacy likewise islamist you know it's important so we can identify that ideology still while not calling it's not right

► 02:01:06

so we still giving a bit of an Alleyway that for everybody else will be on the most times but took what is the most extreme is mr. recognize that it's an offshoot of Islam it's a manifestation extreme or otherwise I'll be slammed and that you're acknowledging that it's justifications are in Islamic scripture as well as of course a multiplicity of other causes Grievances and what have you but we can't ignore that it's also rests on justifications that are derived from the Islamic scripture I mean I can sign for the Arabic that tells you in the Quran itself to cut behind of the thief what's the last you don't trip ID for the saying the prophet says kill the the person that changes that religion this is scripture and so of course there are other factors involved as well but one of the factors that gives rise to this is the Unruh phone scripture that these extreme is site until knowledge that Islam has a role to play often say that the presidency was frustrating that the common refrain was to say that this is nothing to do with Islam

► 02:02:06

is arguing with the Spanish Inquisition had nothing to do with all this isn't even further one point didn't eat at one point say that not only does this have nothing to do with his mom that has less to do with Islam than any other religion he bent over backwards and unfortunately have to wrap this up but I really appreciate you guys coming on it was nice to meet you and your book the book is Islam in the future of Tolerance and actually we're going to Sydney and Auckland and Douglas Murray and both Weinstein Brothers wreck those Town we're going to have a lot of red wine

► 02:02:56

and you as well thank you guys I appreciate it

► 02:03:10

thank you everybody for tuna to the podcast and thank you to our sponsors thank you to housecall Pro go to housecall Pro. Com Rogan tell them The Joe Rogan Experience sent you and they will waive your $99 activation fee go to housecall Pro. Com Rogan thank you also to athletic greens athletic greens ladies gentlemen you can go and get 20 free travel packs valued at $99 with your first purchase go to athletic greens.com Rogan to claim your special offer today that's athletic greens.com Rogan and we are also brought to you by the black tux get $20 off your purchase visit the black tux. Com Rogan that's the black tux. Com Rogan for $20 off your purchase the black tux premium rental suits and tuxedos delivered

► 02:04:10

that's it folks love you thanks for tuning in appreciate the fuck out of you see you