#1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

The Joe Rogan Experience #1191 - Peter Boghossian & James Lindsay

October 30, 2018

Peter Boghossian is a philosophy instructor, activist, author, speaker, and atheism advocate. He is a full-time faculty member at Portland State University. James Lindsay has a Ph.D. in mathematics and a background in physics and is also the author of three books.

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Netflix You Beautiful bastards Joey Diaz specials out right now you fux and even though Joey talk shit about it it's fucking hilarious he's the goat in my opinion that's the funniest cat ever lived I've seen a lot of comedians I seen Kinison live I seen Bill Hicks live I had the pleasure of working with Richard Pryor at work with Dice Clay Joe is the best it's just my opinion you get out of yours that's my opinion that's my favorite and go see him live cuz he's he's upset he was upset and his performance so he's wrapped it up and not even further that's out right now my specials out right now too it's called strange times is also on Netflix I think it's the best one I've ever done I work real hard for it and it's all right now so Joey Diaz is the degenerate song right now and mines out right now as well mine started the beginning of the month and his is just yesterday

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and you get the best eggs the healthiest most delicious you get that rich dark orange yolk taste what it means to be bullshit free get your coupon for Vital Farms pasture-raised eggs head over to vitalfarms.com/Rogan I'm a big fan. We're also brought to you by Primal kitchen. Primal kitchen Mark Sisson has been on my podcast before and I have sung the Praises of his products May X for free because I love his stuff Mark is an author he starts start this ancestral diet called the Primal diet of the Primal blueprint I wrote a book called The Primal blueprint and he is an ex endurance athlete and a New York Times bestselling author of the keto reset diet and the primal

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print and Primal endurance and he's a blogger at top-rated Health and Fitness website marksdailyapple.com which is his site now Mark started this Primal Kitchen in 2015 because you realized that when you clean up your diet and start eating real food it's the sauces the dressings and the toppings that can make an otherwise Bland meal exciting that's why System created these Primal kitchen condiments and dressings to add uncompromisingly delicious flavor to every single bite with products that are free of dairy gluten grain soy and full of beneficial fats and high quality protein I am addicted to this Chipotle lime Mayo I eat this stuff I go through bottles of it a week I fucking love it I eat it with elk I eat it with eggs I eat it with everything I can get my hands on it's just fantastic

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it's great for all sorts of different things but it's made with avocado oil and I like it for dipping use it as a topping made with 100% pure avocado oil cage-free eggs has no gluten no grain no sugar or industrially processed oil and also adds a ton of flavor and makes any paleo keto or other meal taste delicious he has a bunch of other great stuff to he has some great protein bars I just love the stuff man I buy a lot of stuff so the fact that I'm doing this ad this is I didn't even know I was going to do this at I saw this and I was like he's a sponsor now great cuz I talk about the stuff all the time and I eat it all the time visit Primalkitchen.Com/Rogan today Primal kitchen is offering a chance for the listeners this

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podcast to get a free jar of this fucking delicious Chipotle lime Mayo delicious and nutritious get your free jar today that's Primalkitchen.Com/Rogan alright my guests today, two guests, are Peter bogosian he's been on the podcast before he is a professor of philosophy at Portland State University and James Lindsey who used to be in Academia and now he runs his own business and

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they said they did something hilarious they published a bunch of fake journal entries to academic journals of really Preposterous entries really Preposterous subjects and I don't want to say anymore I'm just let us get into the podcast but I really enjoyed it it was hilarious it was informative a little disturbing because the subject matter it's just so crazy that academic journals are this goofy but these guys are not and they're there to brilliant man so please give it for James Lindsay and Peter bogosian

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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Bob already damn there's no countdown Jimmy your radical radical Miss bogosian fuck go back to Jeffersonville gentleman and if there was one other person that you did this with this whole project Helen pluckrose from England shout out to Helen from England she back across the pond across the pond to fish and chips and making tea in managing Ariel magazine out to her as well in about it because when I first read it my first inclination to that I had two reactions one was a huge laugh I laugh really hard and then I said Thank God somebody exposed this you tell me

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tell me what you guys didn't go over list explain who you guys are what you doing I bailed out and I could give you in 2010 though because of

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kind of see the writing on the wall and so now I am a renegade gender scholar and I write nonsense to the genitals this time really what I do I mean I manage a business at home so I'm going to Academy teach philosophy of Portland State University and Jim years ago we collaborated with written on a number of things over the years and at some point it just came to be we had to do something about this it was just too ridiculous and it was translating into the real world and so we collaborated and here we are let's explain what you did and what was ridiculous what we're talking about what was ridiculous is

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there's many fields of studies that you can get legitimate degrees in that are absolutely Preposterous literally filled with nonsense talk by nonsense people who live in these nonsense Bubbles and then they give these degrees and these people go out in the real world actually and they infect things are Ridiculousness infect certain is particularly tech industry businesses like you you see it and do more James D'Amore I guess you're in a half ago now his last summer we started riding a bunch of academic papers for the journals that represent these field and so everybody understands when academic paper is getting out of the gate this isn't like an iPad that you cash offer like Washington poster some magazine or whatever this is a thing like academics

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work their careers to write one or two of these a year and so they're really hard to write their supposed to be hard to get published so we were up 20 of them in 10 months and seven of those got accepted for were actually published and then we got lost or more yeah we got busted anyways for more were on track maybe 5 or 6 more would have gotten what's the difference between getting accepted and getting published so the process with everything and I can give me is really slow on a lot of people don't know that so you send off this article the editor looks at it and the editor either gives it the thumbs-up or thumbs-down if they give us a thumbs up it goes off to peer reviewers and that process takes months often as long as I would want to pay for those 8 months under peer review so the reviewers look at it they try to figure out if your arguments are good to try to figure out if the research is good they evaluate that they have extensive comments they send it back to you then you have to revise it according to whatever they say make it

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better is what supposed to happen they made ours crazier and so then we made the papers just the most extreme thing I know you're probably 3-4 months in just the review process not to the writing what should also take months and then the editor will either send it back to the reviewers to see if it was good enough or they'll just evaluate themselves depending on where it stands and then they'll make a decision as to whether or not to accept it or reject it or ask for more revisions and then when they accept it that means the journals ready to publish it but then the publishing process requires all the type setting proofing all the stuff that goes into making it professional for an academic journal and that can take months and Publishing is the coin of the realm like that's it so the ideal is one paper every year in the humanities probably so

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if you that's how you could answer yourself that's how you get tenure which is a job for life that's how you get to teach people these ideas for then as you said go out into the workforce you know five six years later and infect everybody was total silliness so the age the gold standard. View so we saw a tremendous problem is it right now like what the hell he's got to talk to you so we had a article all the ones I got the most press was about dog humping in Portland Oregon it was called how did it go was it called performativity and rape culture rape culture in dog parks in Portland Oregon to be claimed under fake name is that all programs formative oh yeah yeah they have their own lingo their own language performativity mean

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a long way that's Judas Butler's whole thing was that genders born Butler Butler is probably the most influential feminist scholar their gender scholar actually I should say it's been and maybe the last 30 years she's she's big time and so she had this whole thing that gender is performative it's something you perform it's not something that they need to do three reactions to rape culture and queer performativity at Urban dog parks in Portland Oregon why is it retracted because it's because they realize all guys were holding them directions to rape culture in queer perform closely examine the genitals of just under $10,000 thousand dogs and then interrogated their owners is to their sexual orientation so I checked out the dogs nuts and then said excuse me sir are you gay

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and you ever swam if they gender their dogs get well we made up these totally insane you know dogs humping incidents and how they they beat female dog pregnant female dog that's one of the papers that we may do you know the other paper that this one also they had the whole thing like if a male dog humps another male dog especially men would freak out and break it up. That because that's the queer performativity part but then if a male dog hump the female dog get her girl against heteronormativity exactly what I told them exactly what they wanted to hear and we gave them Boga statistics to fuel what they already wanted to believe they started off with the idea that crap in between you get to it in the conclusion was feminism should train men the way we train dogs so that we can get rid of rape culture put them on leashes and it's right on the paper it's all there unfortunately we cannot put meant Alicia it's not political

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feasible to put men on leashes you guys wrote that the journal said that this was Exemplar a scholarship and gave it an award

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just wanted to show my guy says one of the best pieces it's busier is their 25th anniversary so this journals been doing this for 25 years and it's the 25th anniversary so they're picking out the best papers putting them in on Pride a place in some some issue of the journal and ours is going to be in the seventh issues so did the number one is greater it's not great so it's either is greater it's not great like why they retracting it were bogus so what you were right well sleep 12 so so they would they would claim it in correctly that we fabricated statistics but we wrote other papers one was fat bodybuilding so they claim that there should be a category introduced in traditional bodybuilding call Fat bodybuilding where people come in display their fat before the audience and Manufacturing statistics for that and they love that they thought it you know what

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find that paper was a fat body is a built body is like I wholeheartedly agree or something like that and then the papers like to hypatia Republic got accepted not published but that one we claim that it's it's unacceptable and so if you want any kind of things that don't have anything of social justice that's good so if we wanted to make fun of men that's great if you want to make fun of white people that's great if you want to make fun of anything to do with social justice that's a problem said that you know South Park's a huge problem The Simpsons is huge problem we went into talking about how Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart have the right idea but then the journal was like straight white male so you have to Nuance around that to make it clear that their position is white men even though they're on the side of social justice it's not quite good enough you know

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play publish that they posted that one was called when the joke's on you joke is on us because we cited our own working there but the joke was actually on them for publishing it yeah it's so it's so funny how racist you can be as long as you're racist against white people that's what we saw is that as long as you are going up the river against privilege then you can really just get away with some nasty stuff so you can generalize I'm totally gross generalization individuals absolute in San Francisco in the 1970s we lived in you know like it was the hippie times and that's lived there from age 7 to 11 and 8

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formed a lot of my opinions about people like the who gives a shit part of my my my appreciation for any group what whatever it is real brothers race or gender or sexual orientation and I just I don't understand it from either way I'd certainly don't understand it from a racist perspective but I really don't understand it from racism that's condone because it's racism against white people this is the left this is these are the people that are preaching against hate at least the people that used to be the people that were supposedly so open-minded and is so open to ideas and now they're trying to stifle creativity and stifled the sentence type of fit inside that very narrow Paradigm the trying to push very strange name of the Civil Rights Movement is kind of the brand that they ride on you know they're fighting again

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braces and they're fighting against sexism massage me excetera and the thing is is that's not really what's going on here they've actually tapped into this to throw around the term this postmodern notion that everything in society has to do with power dynamics and the power dynamics have priests understood in terms of groups and how those groups are traditionally held power and exercise power and so immediately it becomes stuck in this idea that it's all about this group for that group and how they relate to one another I don't mean like hey let's get along really I mean like white people are Imagine to always be over black people in there for you know there's always is natural power Dynamic of of of a presser versus oppressed and this is stuff that came straight out of this weird postmodern philosophy where you saw these dissatisfied French philosophers in the 60s you know it's all in this to all the stuff you're talking about was going down they saw this stuff and they said wow you know okay power dynamics are the thing

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because I should go back a step the the postmodern philosophers like Foucault and all of this got all hooked up on power because they were too satisfied with seeing what they called Grand narratives Christianity capitalism Marxism it's all these huge you no explanation for how the world works and said you know they're not working look how bad communism failed look how there's so much you no bulshit coming out of this or that from religion it's not working we need to just get rid of all of it we're going to deconstruct this we're going to break it down to his power dynamics and then we're going to look at it in terms of who has Master Hood / / who who's oppressing what where's dominance and it's just kind of grown it got picked up in the in the academic culture in the 1960s that's how old is stuff is and then it took his huge turn in the 1990s and get really vicious and that's where it really gotten us and it turned intersectional actually that was during the political correct days that's that's when the political correct

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Jesus really when all of this political correctness stuff started coming out of the academy and then a few years later you see it coming all over politics which typically what happens it starts and Academy a few years later it leaks into the culture and politics or Media or the tech sector now whatever happens to be this stifling of creativity is the the most disturbing part about it like this it like the agreement that South Park in The Simpsons are real problem it's so bizarre because like here's the thing if they missed the mark and it's not funny it won't work and then it'll be a bad show and no one will like it but if it's funny there has to be something about it that people find ironic satirical to ask me something about other people are enjoying it has 2.2 some truth and the denial of this and it's Dad like the saying oh it's white males are causing this problem and you shouldn't attack this or that or you know that there's subjects that are off-limits and social justice should never be attacked like that you agreed

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is it's so it's so Preposterous this is life we're talking about this is literally Nuance of Life all the various strange things in the spectrum of human behavior and all the things you encounter in life and two segments and limit what is an is not what what's off limits and snot off limits based on race based on things that a person can't control at all you're just bored why what you're born in a presser but you're born addicted Miser and your white male you're a fucking piece of shit and you can say that particular so many tweets from people that means so many virtue signaling tweet but one of my favorite ones is feminist who said all white a white straight men are trash unless proven otherwise

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I mean give or take out trash and prove you're not alone over their asses problematize allyship to you see this power dynamics once you say hey I'm an ally now you've made it so that you have like a shield where people can't call you a white supremacist anymore and you are acting on behalf of other people in you know you're speaking for them so you know I've assumed power that was reproducing the same power dynamics you didn't problematize hell yeah we had more or less replaced whites would replace Jews with white man and you literally took Kampf the actual words for mine, and put it in this paper and replaced the word Jews with the word white men and they accepted what we had two papers that did mine

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that one did not get accepted quotes that you guys used I mean so with that one what we did was we took the whole document on online and we just search the word Jew and we just had to pick in sentences and paragraphs so what was it that at the end it was something like if we don't combat whiteness it's going to be the funeral wreath for mankind straight out of my account yet they didn't they didn't accept that paper though because that paper turns out was written from the perspective of a white lesbian who hated her on whiteness and they said that it was positioning her as a good white and because she's making herself out as a good white again allyship isn't as all it's cracked up to be she you know was making a problem she should have really been forwarding the ideas of the black Scholars that she read way more and not talking about yourself so much even though it was a paper design to be talking about because that was what Hitler did so that's what we had to do

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now the other Minecon paper was about feminism and what we did was we took the chapter to chapter 12 we took the chapter where he says this is why we should have the Nazi party and what is expected of people are going to be part of it and we took out our movement party Nazi party in the chapter but everywhere he's like our movement took that output in intersectional feminism and then modified the words around it so that it would fly and yes they are yes I call it Siri Siri I love and they throw that around my are you saying once you say that you're you're good like you say you can say it's like someone to the stuff they come up with a creative idea maybe there's something to some of the stuff right and then they're treating was conclusions so they're putting for this idea I saw one on Twitter today it was something

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South Park how it's been laundering racism into society and making ever be comfortable with racism and that's why everything so racist and people are shooting Jews is because South Park made it normal they're treating it as a conclusion but that's a hypothesis right so we can test that it's conceivable that you could actually try to parse out what variables need to be controlled see no South Park came out and started doing these themes what how does it track statisticians can do kind of amazing things with that stuff but they're not doing that they're not testing it it's in the testing their completing it and then and there I don't know it's even bigger than that cuz why don't they test it will if they tested it and this is I'm not making the shut up you won't believe me but this is true if they tested it in the test showed that their hypothesis was wrong they would say that the test was racist but the test is condoning racism and that's why it didn't give him the desired result

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I'm not exactly sure how you would test that but conceivably you could gather how attitudes of change maybe you could track kinds of Articles kind of coming out you could kind of pair that up with what's been shown on South Park South Park and track down with attitudes I mean that they don't talk about that no point the other direction these ideas are problematic that's the big word theoretically that's a problem why because they and I'm not joking they literally believe that use of language creates the power dynamics at Define society so South Park cheesing language and imagery that creates a power Dynamic that makes people more comfortable being racist boom Theory done no even attempt to test happened the test itself will be racist unless I confirm that iPod so they start with an agenda and then mention the word laundromats good reformer gas Brett and Heather

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talked about idea laundry I think that's important. They treat they don't treat them and then they write up a paper paper like we're saying is the absolute gold standard of academic work they send the paper off the reviewers in our cases made her papers crazier every single time so they push it further into the ideology or the madness how does the review or do something like that what what input do they get to have a problem with that word problematize in Everything is Everything literally anything can be

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that's what we call a grievance studies how to transfer straight men are generally transphobic meaning in particular is a their kind of Niche weird definition did you see on the internet and activists sometimes that they aren't interested in having sex with trans people who have penises trans women who have a penis in particular and so we said well that's a kind of transphobia and clearly the reason that they might be transphobic is because they don't practice putting things in their butts so if they start putting stuff up their butts in particular we call the paper dildos so you can imagine what we were saying that you put up the paper was called dildo no that was really sweet. There's a lot of IFS

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penetrated themselves and had their girlfriends take them through exposure therapy you know you start small then work your way up. Transphobia trading are having your girlfriend Peg you you can be less transphobic really 813 / 13 interviews documented but five of them with gay people not even straight people so they don't really apply so then we have these interviews with straight man we made one of them a conservative and he's just so we can just put in like you know crazy things that a conservative might say about this and they were like why don't why weren't there more conservatives participating so I was like well I'm going to run with this I wrote this whole thing we invited 6 conservatives participate and only one accepted into kind of summarize why in the words in this is in the paper in the words of one I don't want to be a part of some stupid liberal study about shoving things up your butt

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LA Public Storage on my God going into the back door on my god. Did they contact you after they were tractor article they got you guys are fucking assholes wasting our time we spent hours reviewing your papers pretty bitter responses but mostly no the mostly the kind of put their head in the sand and kind of avoided talking to us before the show started that I read one article that was really diminishing the impact what you guys done saying like what it's not a big deal you know I'm wrong you were trying to make it seem as if what you guys had written was just a prank yeah that's that's not what happened recently false parody that make it through that you guys aren't writing can pull up on about how hot wings and like there's a TV show spicy

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or something like that about hot wings oh yeah yeah the YouTube show they had a whole ones out there about that show and it's all about how you know hot sauce has everything to do with masculinity and being manly and they didn't have enough women on the show that's because because it's sexist in the hot hot sauce I think was a sexist part and it has all these bizarre concluded we decided that in the paper we wrote about Hooters would put in a part that there is no masculinity contest of eating the hot wings who can eat more hot wings and then they did say all I ate 20 hot wings ask out the Hooters girl show hot ones is problematic for problematic for right so we decided that paper it's real

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celebrity on hot ones as a professor he probably teaches this stuff what credentials help you get 7 in general you just said she wrote it but who's the other one Tisha at the end who wrote the introduction of the difference, is it is it an article about the article

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yeah this is it looks like I mean I haven't read this specifically food media have been recognized as cultural artifacts a reference culturally and historically specific ideals of gender drawing on the simultaneously mundane and I'm not interrogating ideas about feminism and identity performer doing was telling you what the fuck man this is what we're talking about this is such unbelievable this is for real for real and so there is now an ever-expanding group of these folks they teach criticism that demonstrate the emergence of feminist ideas in and through food media

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the fuck are you still really worried about that what

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and work do something that someone wants to pay for and with hot sauce it's racial assumptions inherent to post-feminist food culture cornbread is being gentrified and that's why I will never get over racism because white people are making like pumpkin spice cornbread did something that I tweeted the other day that about someone that's sad tweeted it and I retweeted it about some some woman she's taking back bone broth I saw it in the fuck yeah

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Prince from the public

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queer women of color wants to decolonize bone broth stop appropriating my culture that is so fucking Preposterous a queer woman of color I'm saying man is a thousand papers like this out there for everyone we wrote them that you might as well couldn't tell if we appreciate what we've done so they can you guys you guys at least you used to work in Academia networking Academia what is the how it how are your peers treating this

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is there are 12 have a lot to say about that I think that for me I've had two from academic people up at two kinds of responses but the overwhelming of but some of those are like you guys and then the overwhelming of them are the same thing over and over and over again and I mean a lot of people thank you so much for doing this but I can't don't tell anybody I'm trying to get a job thank you Cindy to go nuts everywhere it's everywhere you can't proceed through Academia now unless you bout of the stuff tenure sounds like tyranny and adult the whole thing sounds Preposterous you can keep a job for life it was supposed to be that you work your ass off for a few years and then you it was supposed to defend you can go for some crazy ideas really like dig into some stuff and they can't fire you for you no come up with maybe weird stuff then people would argue about it but now it's kind of become the situation where people get in this situated

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did their job and then you can't get rid of them right what is there a way to fire people around so what is it like for you now you know you are actually cheaper on comfortable are people upset at you

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you don't mean the only the only thing I can think of it's like you should if you taught it a Christian school and then you went in and took videos and post them on YouTube of defecating the Bible and then just walked into the school so I think it it's kind of similar in that they have bought Hook Line & Sinker into microaggressions trigger warning safe spaces diversity issues there a note there's no question and it's something for me that makes me deeply uncomfortable when my students can ask questions when when they they can't they're just uncomfortable to voice their opinions about things and I think that that

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to say the least a lot of people are in Rage to me but exactly what Jim said some people come in the car thank you so much but again I can't be public what is the ratio

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I mean for me it's like 95% people who are really happy it happened and can't let it be known but I'm not you know facing these people everyday well you know through the videos from Evergreen State you can see Bret Weinstein interactions with not just students but also some of the professors that were there that some of these Preposterous people that he had to work with buying and Hook Line & Sinker to the stuff and they live in these insulated world so just lie and they just they they create these people that also want to stay inside these insulated worlds and then it just sort of stew in these ideas and then again go out into the real world and they think they're better people as a result the doing the good work question this maybe to look at it and say you know the kind of looks like bullshit but I don't know

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do the right thing right they really do these people really care about Progressive agendas you know getting over any lingering discrimination that's going on racism sexism Exedra they really want to do the right thing good for that right that you want but they actually have to question or like run count as a river of morality running through them to their mind they actually have to go Upstream a little bit and that's hard it feels weird you have to say wait a minute maybe the scholarship maybe the stuff isn't the best way to do it but then the first thought you have as well these guys are these these people is this one's grievance studies are are fighting racism so if I go against them but I'm going against of people fighting racism so maybe I'm helping racism to love the right excetera excetera excetera your racist if you disagree with any of this stuff

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I get accused of being all right all the time I mean so far left Universal Health Care Universal basic income should be free I think we should pay for I believe in a lot of socialist ideas totally but I'm right wing because I want to study problem of dogs fucking women if I really believe the people going to get real health care and real education for the same let's let's make the world a better place that's the thing right is if all the scholarship that they were doing on race and gender all that's important stuff right so they're doing that right

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why would you want to be behind it but they're not doing it right how do I know cuz I made up papers about dog humping and made up the conclusion before I wrote the paper and then boom they probably shouldn't give it an award the conclusion and then work backwards to a conclusion that I'm not doing scholarship I'm making shit up also there's no room for descent and then you can't even do you have to teach whatever the moral Orthodoxy is so just imagine this going into University you're trying to your young mind you're young kid and I'm deeply concerned about these days you're going to need never hear the other side of an issue about immigration they never here the other day so they become brittle overtime so when they hear it they just they don't know what to do there shocked by it professors are terrified I did that they'll get a complaint will have to go to the diversity bored I've been told that I'm not allowed to render my opinion about protected classes and I had that fixed

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that's a great thank you for asking for definition to protect the classes a list of protected classes I didn't receive any I'll be criticized I cannot I cannot I cannot offer its Federal discrimination law and universities I'm not allowed to render my opinion about a protected class and so for example I can't so homosexuals I know are covered under protected classes can have an opinion on homosexual people I can have an opinion but I can't so the example that was evidently I made a comment

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let's take a step back okay so this is an ethics class and I was talking about how sexual Choice does not fall into the realm of morality so if if a guy is gay and he likes another guy that's just not a moral thing that's just preference or just is what it is like a matter of taste or and some remember the whole thing but someone in someone in the class said well you know you shouldn't have taste or something or you shouldn't have and I can't remember the exact frame because I'm getting this third hand from my violation you know my Prada came to someone else somebody said in class what about this and I I made the comment I said everybody has something everybody has a preference but you can't say that no one had a preference I said it would be

► 00:45:32

it was it would be as if I said well you know I don't want to date someone who's 400 pounds so that comment then got turned into something when they called somebody else in the office of diversity inclusion called someone else in and it was during my opinion about people who are 400 pounds

► 00:45:51

when my what I was doing a saying that homosexuality itself there's no there's no reason to give that it's just not a moral thing but people lump it in but the main point of this whole thing is that we have situations in which professors can't talk about protected classes students are afraid to ask questions everybody's walking on eggshells and the students aren't learning and phrases are taken out of context or taking out of context now if you want a place to go to celebrate whatever the reigning more Orthodoxy is in the university is a great place for you did you like the saying you don't want to date people over 400 pounds did you explain that the context of the use of she wasn't interested in the context of it as it is exactly the entire thing maybe I don't like I don't want to date people over 7ft tall maybe you can

► 00:46:51

got away with that yeah I don't think people over 7ft tall are protected class so you can't say that you should never have said that I said really why I said well you should have said well I don't like dating blue or green people

► 00:47:16

around man and then they become protected class then someone goes bright blue and look so what you said 10 years ago about Bluegreen so that's how that works if you look at there's all this stuff and coming out of victimhood culture and how it propagates and how it develops and that's one of the things is called competitive victimhood you can call a wonderful at little people are fighting over who's a bigger victim and they're like white people have it hard to the second date II somebody hears all black people have a hard somebody that's competitive and so then when you have like a moral economy if you will or you can kind of cash in and gain status or gain access to speaking or whatever happens to be by holding a certain status of of victimhood or grievance then you're going to find people competing

► 00:48:16

find ways to get that for themselves yes everybody's going to go I mean you have the infrastructure there everybody's going to go after trying to maximize their own utility was in there so people over 7 ft tall aren't a protected class yet but the second they realize that they might be able to cash in on it that you might Lobby for headed to victim of a grievance jocking yeah it's wonderful times it really is so if you look at the route so here's the thing that we thought about extensively if you look at where is the stuff coming from all of this stuff is coming from these the canons of knowledge their bodies of literature. Viewed and that's the idea laundering think I would ya ya to all of that stuff is coming from from this and if you want it make if you want to get back to constructive politics to get back to people having conversation and that's the thing like that's I think

► 00:49:16

the reason that your show has been so successful is it's a it's a combination of authenticity with you can have your totally willing to have conversations with No Holds Barred you can't have that in the academy two people need to go to you to hear these thoughts and to wrestle with ideas and to engage it's just anywhere else other than a podcast you can't do it in the academy but you can't even do it on the Today Show they fired making caliper why is blackface question she's not a bright woman in that regard socially write Sultan was brought in Black Scholars and black intellectuals for a week

► 00:50:16

so do you want to punish me the nice person and choose a Amigo you have this idea that all of society is constructed out of power dynamics that are mediated through language media imagery and so she just now became problematic and she put out ideas that would be dangerous and poisonous me and discuss the merits Ardis merits of not something to work through not something is a teachable moment she put out an idea that's dangerous is anymore but you know it was really interesting to she try to do too so disingenuous and how she approaches so obvious you know what I'm a black person is it why is it wrong for a black person

► 00:51:16

a white person black scholars in at the end of that I really listen to that and I know that and I was wrong and I'm changing it was missing was her holding up a newspaper that showed the days off

► 00:51:48

who sings so fucking funny that is one of the worst ways to really fucked everything up second of all you have these massive time constraints and then you have advertisers then you have a bunch of Executives they're all cowards they're all just ready to pull the trigger on anything anytime I blame you for anything that went wrong and get rid of you or fire you fire fire him get rid of them get rid of them bringing the next person is to show they've learned in all black true I divorce crew that they replacing Megyn Kelly with a crew of of color

► 00:52:41

make about where that works right it works you said they're cowards they're afraid they're going to let you know damage their brand or whatever it is where does that work who works on that bullies right so these people why are they so pervasive in the academy why are they so so pervasive in media they know they can believe these people they know that they can go lean on this stuff and somebody's going to be cowardly and then they're going to be able to you know make something change in the direction they wanted to change you see it even creeping into politics but they try to do it with policymakers you see a lot more in and a lot of other countries right now we're in this massive like backlash against it in American politics how's that going in the 2016 help your Progressive agenda gang a holy crap that is a part of the problem with it what it what are they saying so yeah you know we're starting a new chapter in the dirt out of our show is it involves it's evolving it's a fucking living being we want you know the entire today family will continue to bring you informative an important store

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just as we always have and look two black eyes and a brown chick

► 00:53:48

that's a hundred percent diverse the ice princess all divorce let's define if you had a panel was just black guys would be honored percent divers redefine the word diversity they've Define the word inclusion but the people outside the academy they think but that's not what it means it means kind of when everybody has the same ideas about something I saw so if you are enforcing diversity for what we have to we would have to find out like ultimately the goal is to find out what what causes people to succeed and especially succeeding in something that is benign is talking right you just talkin so you so what causes someone to succeed in talking what makes their ideas valuable would make some someone that you enjoy listening to and then finding like what what impediments there aren't that in

► 00:54:48

in all the various communities and fix it at the root level what doesn't work is saying we need one Chinese lady we need one black guy and we need one white guy cuz if you do something like that you're not going to get the best show nope or you're not going to get the best anything not even guaranteed to achieve the goal you're claiming so it's again it goes back to Siri and Siri and I mean theory in terms of postmodern critical theory that this stuff's all Basin that we studied the idea is that if you have a particular identity now you have a particular view of the world and people of other identities have different ones and in fact there's this whole thing called standpoint epistemology it says it if you have a marginalized I didn't do you know more about the world and other people because you live in Two Worlds at once so the idea is over get a black guy in here he's had a different life experience therefore he can speak truly to that you get a Chinese lady in here she can speak to that so on and so forth so the gas is that by virtue merely of bringing in people who

► 00:55:48

look different with different races are genders are sex is our sexuality then you automatically get a diverse set of opinions but that doesn't work that's not how that actually works you could take people of every race educate them on the exact same social justice curriculum and they all think exactly the same thing but at least in something like hosting the Today Show you are just talking once you put the sort of diversity standards of something like mathematics know yeah that's that's when things get super squirrel trying to do that a little bit I'm sure they wanted people to sign an equity which is another word that they have co-opted they wanted folks on an equity statement and diversity statement commitment to diversity you have a commitment to diversity and you have a commitment to equity and so Equity does not mean treating people equally it's not like you have a commitment to a quality which is we should all have

► 00:56:48

sure Mitchell quality it's Equity is Define differently it's to make up for past and justices are to make up for some deficiency that has occurred somewhere along the line so you know it's to treat people differently in order to level the playing field so it's not treating people equally and that's the only thing it sounds like it's in the literature so if you look pretty in the dictionary you get one definition but if you look at the word Equity as they're applying it in sociological definitions it's a very specific thing that means something slightly different from what people say so here's the question you should ask somebody anytime you hear someone use the word Equity just ask all I'm I'm curious why didn't use the word equality can can use it can you think of it

► 00:57:48

sentence be the same with the meeting be the same with the meeting is not the same that's why they use equity and not that's why it's weird is also but yeah they Co-op they change and then they smuggle diversity inclusion inclusion they push it through it gets published and that's just like it's like the academic equivalent of money laundering yes right so what does money laundering work you take some money you got all gotten money you put it through you know this shell company or this thing or the other thing and it comes back to you and now it's had a legal trail that makes it legit right well here you take some Prejudice you write it down as an academic paper you publish the thing it gets the academic standard stamp on it it's a gold standard of knowledge now and now this is this Prejudice you started with now looks like legitimate knowledge so I can go straight in the classroom we can go straight to activists for policymakers it's a real problem

► 00:58:48

academic money laundering they have knowledge about the dildos the guy said this paper is an important contribution to knowledge if it important contribution to knowledge I would hope review and one was just hitting a bong right before I wrote that just fake college person gets attracted to whole heartedly agreeing to these ridiculous ideas like what what are the people like the gray question I think it's people who want to save the world

► 00:59:36

I like to see the world a much more cynical that they both

► 00:59:46

they've they've got this idea that I mean we talk a moment ago about about privilege of my kind of you know brush real close to the idea that if it's kind of like original sin and so they see that the the downside of privilege the opposite side discrimination or racism sexism exceder hate is the big word you know fight hate their he's eight he's using hate this is hate speech that's where I think they got the that's like the evil thing you're born with privilege that psycho original sin so what do they want to do they want they want to fix the Save the World by clearing out the evil of privilege by clearing out hate from the world did for them Utopia means nobody hates and by hate we need something like racism sexism Etc idea but then ridiculous way like you're born with privilege and now you're just stuck with it right what can you do its original sin you can be sorry for it you can try to be an ally and work it off you can check it whatever the hell that means you can do a lot of things but you can't actually

► 01:00:45

for it you can't get over you can get rid of it then you get the situation where it's like they really really need to take Desperate Measures like let's lock it all down let's let's tell these people that they're wrong let's try to point out how white supremacy is in them because they're white was pointed out masculinity is an ideology that needs to be destroyed that was Lisa way that she wrote that last year is an ideology anger and frustration just finally slowed at Trump and they see this until I read so many other usually op-eds not their academic pieces and it's like men are like this man are you can tell a trump but they can't talk I'm so they're pissed off and they try to take it out on all men I think that's like a huge thing they see these problems they exaggerate the problems they practice problem advising and that's a thing right they practice is stuff you go to school it's in the

► 01:01:45

download free cool maybe they major in this stuff you get good at finding problems I was just talking yesterday came over at you I never actually I got to Los Angeles couple times before but I've never been to the beach I never actually made it on Santa Monica I go to a Wendy's burger place is right on the on the right by the pier and it says that this is a burger that made Santa Monica famous immediately saw the hot ones thing right I was like there's a paper on this you have those manly double cheeseburger being marketed that's what made Santa Monica famous oh so manly food culture is the kind of like colonialism that goes and makes a city become a city it because it makes a place into a place and you could I can write a paper about that 3 days do you have to have credentials to write a paper and that's the sad thing is it's what their response to this is been over going to screen better to see who is actually writing this paper so they can't trick us but that's bullshit

► 01:02:45

it's an important piece I mean I would walk back on that one cuz we did make up the data incorrect we definitely didn't ask anybody about their dogs are their genitals or anything that you could have been we said similar results but I'm sure that didn't happen maybe it did happen that the one that's when the joke's on you didn't do that there's no made up data and most of our papers and why shouldn't those stand right why should I get it

► 01:03:45

your ability to make Discerning judgments about things has been bailed because they put an agenda before the truth I keep seeing all these good how crazy is that so yeah thanks for noticing you know asshole that's exactly what we were trying to do just stupid pranks pretty funny but we were actually trying to learn what's going on there thanks for noticing somebody finally did but that means of course I don't admit that we actually learn this stuff because then we say it's shit they're stuck with somebody knows what they're talking about saying it sucks don't want that either

► 01:04:22

now when you said his people that are trying to save the world like what what do what do you really mean by that I think they're the people are trying to build the kingdom of God on the planet Earth it's you know to draw metaphor religious Center for their people who see an evil and they want to purge the world of that evil by any means necessary and the evil being like privilege privilege and it goes down it's just the Game of Thrones the only way because people don't believe in the old gods or have you in our brain and the new religion is intersectionality and we snapped really is what it is exactly what it is I've been writing about that and talking about that it's all over the news political correctness in parallel with blasphemy the same thing as of heresy

► 01:05:22

running how easily people sort of slide into a precondition slots huge the one difference and I think this is a key difference the reason that it's easier and I I mention this depends when we do talk and he just couldn't believe it the reason that it's easier to talk to Christian for example about faith or about their religion is cuz at the end of the day it comes down to face these people don't have any faith they have knowledge quote unquote they have their bodies of scholarly literature which were idea laundered that's what they have to make a point to these things and say why don't you know well Robin diangelo trust him and you shouldn't trust them either almost a religious or real

► 01:06:22

pigeon like accept exactly I'm specific ways of eating are specific ways of communicating specific seem to have this natural inclination to adopt predetermined patterns of behavior yeah I think actually it is pretty decent understanding of that from from the perspective of moral psychology you've got this idea that somebody has seen something is good so it elevates and it makes them better so clean eating might be good right whatever clean eating memes for some people it's vegan for some people it's like all you eat is grass-fed beef who knows but you got clean eating and you got dirty eating and he's going to the clean thing and so you got this thing and then eventually take this so seriously vexento you know you from holy this that at sacred it's something really important to somebody or what it really means is that it's taken on so much more important to somebody that they no longer allowed to be questioned

► 01:07:22

something sacred it's now been removed from the this fear of being doubted questions or whatever and so when you have this idea like that

► 01:07:31

let's say that privilege is the cause of of racism and elevated that are the problem with everything in society even then you've elevator that till like a sacred value that can't be questioned you can't say maybe there's another dimension to it that's when you start getting these kind of religious like the haters you start getting these problems because you've got a place where I can't be a question fee made fun of where talk about the comedy earlier this is killing comedy rights absolutely killing comedy because you can't make a joke cuz if the joke goes a little bit wrong now you you committed a heresy you're a blasphemer we're going to be yes but no because people love when you go against it that's true but the weight the weight of it is there but when you resist it people scream and throw myself so this is really interesting because if we take the theory about humor at face value right that you can only go against the power thing so we say okay you know what we were to pay for one of our papers the joke's on you was about that let's say the right why do

► 01:08:31

love it was because everybody knows these past these guys have power there trying to pretend that they don't have power that they are the victims their the oppressed mean while they're bullying everybody and everything they're firing people for saying the wrong thing in class you know whatever it is that's only possible save power and the joke when South Park makes fun of like was a PC principal or whatever on South Park makes fun of that the only reason people laugh if their theory is right is because they're powerful series wrong cuz it's just funny then we can talk about something different but if they're actually right if they're actually making a point here they're not recognizing that they're admitting that they have sees a lot of cultural power and that's why people celebrate when when you go back again so that's why people have sent us on the emails like the greatest thing ever thank you so much for doing this there's all this shit like you guys are heroes blah blah blah why because they wanted to see if you laughed why because it's funny as hell is why and why because these people are there influencing the shit out of stuff yeah and if they weren't if they were

► 01:09:31

just you know victims who don't have a voice who can't make any impact who aren't bullying people everywhere me like why you bully and those guys why you being a dick right but everybody thinks it's funny and why because because they have real impact they haven't have real impact and that's one of the things that we really want to convey to people is that this would happen to the economy does not stay in the Academy I read some articles about some things that we've said on this show that are just fucking completely Preposterous and taken totally out of context and presented as some evidence of you know whatever transgression that's impossible to defend it's very strange it's it's very strange time for for communication it's a very strange time for ideas but I also think it's really excited it's exciting that all this nonsense is going on that's one of things that are really loud about what you guys have done it's exciting it's exciting that you guys have infiltrated and have these

► 01:10:31

fucking dummies public not just publisher shitted but praise it that you wrote a bit about fat bodybuilding

► 01:10:43

I mean free and accepted his phrases there really are you know I mean you shouldn't be mean to people that's it but fat shaming because someone's fat know you're if you you can't call me fat cuz I'm not fat doesn't work there so that's real similar to read this is they don't use the word obesity because this is really interesting because obesity obesity is a narrative it's just a story so that use the word for give me so there's not obesity bodybuilding this fat bodybuilding and they're all these narrative so why would one want to buy into one narrative rather than another narrative why is fat okay no BC bad because obesity is a medical eyes narrative is just a description

► 01:11:43

I'm not making that up Watts Health ism is a narrative it's a power structure we're healthy and thin people are imposing their view of how body should be on you and you've got all the you know cuz you're must really too so you wouldn't just be straight white heterosexual sis so would probably think you're related to music and they also claim to be healthy at every size movement you can be healthy at every size and obesity is just a medical eyes narrative the point of that is to say if your doctor tells you you're fat and it's a health concern then you don't have to listen

► 01:12:37

yeah that is a I read that before I read an article by this woman who was morbidly obese Charlotte Cooper I don't use the name but she was talking to was also using or like really miss using some studies on there was some there there there have been some studies on people who are overweight and that there could possibly be some health benefits to being overweight these Studies have been widely dismissed now not only dismissed but they go in direct contrast to the great volume of studies that show how terrible it is for your health to be that that fat and that heavy but

► 01:13:20

this person I don't remember who it was why she was doing this but she was clinging to these one or two studies that have been dismissed is there a biased epidemiological studies that have been dismissed but she was put putting them in this blog as if this is some sort of evidence that not only is it not unhealthy to be fat but it might be healthy to be fat think about this person in an academic position as a professor teaching young people especially particularly on girls know my God is this real the real paper they think it's a it's a concern for your health they see that as a form of fat shaming saying that they're not all right the way that they are there not being accepted the way that they are is a power Dynamic that healthy people are imposing upon overweight people have Myriad issues that they come up with and I

► 01:14:19

sure I'm some of these complaints of got to be somewhat real you know they don't make as many oversized clothes. Plus size clothes it's harder to get Styles or there's some legit stuff you know that they might want to say hey what can we do something about this but on the other hand the whole thing that like saying that it has nothing to do with health it has nothing to do with your like triglyceride levels hard to drink it just runs it's Auntie Eva. It runs in the face of every conceivable piece of evidence they're teaching kids this there in schools and there are classes that studies classes and there's an actual that's the distance from the public defender John was faxed to bring it up I told you I told you 30 million people are waiting to find out the real bodyweight exercises and this is what he's like when we do this 30 million people going to now know that there's something fat so you know facts that he's doesn't do what you think it does you probably think of that studies you know what

► 01:15:19

triglycerides how much should you exercise how much sugar is too much sugar that is absolutely not with this journal does frozen a fat stigma crafting weight stigma and swimming classes a case study and I hope so so I'm telling you to go to swimming class Fitness class or something whatever swimming classes are fatness and temporarily intersectional approaches and methodological Innovations you just said a bunch of nonsense Depression affect people as built into institutions provide the cultural landscape an effect and affect the relationship and perceptions of plus-size people of size it is this introduction to the special issue on Parallel

► 01:16:19

what's the problem which I don't know how you pronounce Epoch or what but that would be black and indigenous people of color because they have even more pressure than the other people color neighbor got to fight or more probably Brown discriminate against Asians so what then that's even a problem because indigenous is recent recently been branded a racist term because you're not actually honoring you're not hitting the actual tribal identity if you get right on The Cutting Edge of the stuff it's like really going in the Meltdown most mrs. because it's too random you're not even exactly so you can see the competitive victimhood going on who gets to claim more of the the victimhood pie and oh now we got this thing about people of color so they get you know victimhood status but why if that goes to

► 01:17:19

all people color equally that's not fair because these people color even more discriminating us we should get more of it it's really they're fighting over a piece of a pie of victimhood Ness I love the Canadian term First Nations First Nation people it's it's a better term because really every single human being that came to North America came from somewhere else so it's just me a witch in the in the fat tents were talking about the fat bodybuilding paper I put in a Star Trek reference at the end of Star Trek I put in something like fat bodybuilding is the final frontier for fat activism like that like that they said it was so that we couldn't use the word frontier because it evokes imagery of the genocides of the American Native Americans to choose a different word someone's here what's up with them they're in trouble and twisted and the things you believe are totally untethered

► 01:18:19

there's knowledge you believe it's knowledge because it's published you go to college you picked us up you start majoring in it you could be majoring in something where you actually learn to do critical thinking to engage with ideas if your if your if your disadvantage going into college that's your best chance to get out of that situation is to Grapple with great critical thinking learn some great skills weather that's you know engineering and the Sciences something like that whether it's even if it's you want to get no like studying race in sociology sauce I do it honestly you're going to get somewhere but you get into the stuff where you can literally just make up your conclusions what are you doing you're teaching these people have to think about problems or seeing you know the burger in the Santa Monica Pier is a problem now everywhere I see it everywhere I go after I did this for a year-and-a-half I've seen problems everywhere are you helping them to get them out of about this or anything

► 01:19:19

probably write 10 books so convincing it down to a book usual you got it in ID and you to blow it up to a book we have to convince this down to a book and they're talking about the problem like just explaining what you've already explained on his podcast and end actually having those studies that you did population in the whole thought process behind happening about it Mike Nana is a documentarian from from Australia that that got hooked up with us he's not he's like oh yeah so and then we ended up talking right you just want to tell people like you are going to believe what I'm doing so we find a few trusted friends were telling this one guy a buddy of ours and he's like oh my God I know a documentarian who's making

► 01:20:19

who's like investigating all the shit going on in the University's already he's already interested would you guys be interested this would be a compelling documentary would you guys be interested in talking to him so we get in touch with him and he's like listen

► 01:20:33

you know I'll shoot this I think there's a there's a film here I think you're going to ruin your career that's what I'm going to film but in any case I'll film this but here's the deal I'm only going to shoot it if you commit a hundred percent to transparency let me tell the full story honestly what's really happening you know we don't get to sugar coat anything to make you guys look good and of course he thought we were just going to crash and burn. I was sure that you guys going to torpedo you're curious like positive and so you know that and you have to convince us to let him show it because we would want to but does he know that you don't work there anymore but we were doing the project so I maybe would never get another job if I wanted to go back into Academia for example or I mean I still it hasn't happened yet but you see people who do academic misconduct get banned from Everett publishing academic papers again that could still come down for me I don't know what all it probably won't but it might

► 01:21:34

and if it does you know then if I try to get a job working for like I think tank or University or anything that depends on that I'm locked out of that now so grumpy Square to let's be honest he works in Portland State it's over for sure they're not sure I don't know I don't know what's going to happen I know it's too much with with all the stuff they got firebombed right there thing just blew up full of hell up and then I got pushed out of their jobs but in a sense it's like I don't know I was talking to them when we were in Portland in the feels like they kind of took the fall and people are like whoa that's too far and I don't know if that's the case or not but if so it's too far like pushing people out of their jobs like students Patrol him to campus with bats trying to find Brett full amount of his

► 01:22:34

or if he showed up I don't care who you are that's too far I mean that's not even Civil Society thought that was too far but a lot of people think it was to be all right to come in and shut down the school I really did try to remain as president which yeah he puts his hands down and they start laughing like what in the fuck is this is what it is. It's hilarious and him he put his hands down there like stop making hand gestures or being aggressive he puts his hands down his throat last

► 01:23:33

yeah if that's the second happened at a college campus when this were ideas or supposed to be shared discussed explored excetera if that can happen at a college campus everything's up for grabs at some point is that college campuses really strange right that's really strange I mean literally go under because it looks like it might happen yeah it's too bad because when it was doing well as Brett was explaining it was a wonderful place to dump because he could do whatever he really cool so he could take them to the park and they could do a class in the part I think he can have a class where you know whatever it regardless of what he teaching he could teach about something out that crazy field trip somewhere you know all the stuff you know adventures with the creator of The Simpsons go there too simple I think he was an alarm from there it's such a shame because they're just such decent people online

► 01:24:33

really legitimately smart and fiercely Progressive people it's a strange strange time for ideas but I think this is a it's also Subs it's some sort of a symptom of this culture that we live in where everyone gets to voice their opinion everyone feels entitled divorce the right because of social media because of this instantaneous ability to post whatever your feel about anything with her to comment on YouTube or a tweet or a Facebook post this nature of everyone putting in input instead of earning your right to be heard you know through Merit and through your work in through people saying hey this guy is smart this girl has great ideas this person really has some good points that's at Aunt Tom Nichols ideas before we used to criticize people

► 01:25:33

from the point of expertise now people who have absolutely no expertise feel that they're entitled to not only criticize but have everybody else listen to the criticisms right cuz you post something and it gets like for interactions in your like white will how come Joe Rogan sing got like four thousand it's not fair right and so does just like kind of competitive jealousy kind of thing going on I think we should have seen that a lot you know these kind of you know people who don't have a lot to bring to the table and they want to get you know maybe it's a spot on a podcast maybe they want to get on you know what conference or something speaker the conference and we seen this for years what happens is but you know you got some big names coming well let's just like can him and say oh he's a sexist he said this terrible thing now he can't be at the conference will protest get him out for one of our guys then they start to get more power it's like let's make sure half of our people are there or else we're going to make sure that we sell your conference is racist then that becomes like just too hot

► 01:26:33

nobody wants to go to the conference is not going to be financially stable so it falls apart social media and Tom Nichols talked about it to generating a kind of narcissism where people feel entitled like I have a voice nobody's listening to me but they should listen to me because they of course things are your ideas are great and the rise of social media coincides with shutting down speakers absolutely used to happen that way even if people protested it the speech went on and people debated that person or the people got a chance to rain in queue in a section to Chatham Seaside that's what it's all about do it supposed to be all about a person that you feel is at they have ideas that are questionable you bring in a person whose ideas you feel or counter and you let the audience see how these individuals discuss these things when I was in high school Barney Frank

► 01:27:34

debated some guy from he was a very conservative person I could get with the there was a ridiculous conservative group that had some really funny name I forgot what it was but he was like this really can Ronald Reagan style conservative and Barney Frank was I think it was still in the closet back then but he was like very articulate powerful left-wing guy and they did they did it inside you know the score the community center in our high school whatever it was you know tomorrow Auditorium chance to watch this one guy talk about all these different but you know whatever it was gay marriage or whatever is conservative ideas and values and the marriage should be between a man and a woman and all these these different things that would today at the lot of college campuses you'd want those shut down to don't want someone propagating these ideas for the party

► 01:28:34

came on after him and eloquently dissected what was stupid about it and what the Constitution is all about what makes America great is our freedom and our ability to express ourselves and and by doing so me as a 16 year old kid and the audience got to see ideas dissected and ideas debated and see two people from polar opposite perspectives just battle it out and let the best idea when and I'm sure it was probably some people that were in that audience that came out of it with a different perspective like yeah gay people shouldn't get married and yeah marriage is supposed to be in between a man and woman I'm sure of it I'm sure of it but that's what happens in a democracy liberal Society you're talking about John Stuart Mill here I mean you talking about John Adams you talk about the foundation of a liberal Society here and that's what the scholarship runs that we looked at

► 01:29:33

Bradley counter this remember the idea is that if people are putting out language the idea that some people are going to come away with a heteronormative idea or a homophobic idea that's already a catastrophe yes so we can allow we got to pull the speaker wires I could do more of that we've got that we can't let that go on what happened where

► 01:29:56

if you don't need this kind of interactions between contrary ideas is so it's it's it's so dangerous that one or two people could possibly be shifted even if it's 30% of the on its way little fuck knows what what's going to happen when people are sitting there listening and who's to say that you're right you're wrong that the way to challenge ideas is not pulling the plug on a speaker's it's a better idea subscribe to the idea that heteronormativity let's use it as an example of heteronormativity is the power structure that's holding down gay people in preventing them from having equal opportunities if you fundamentally believe that anybody else going to convince anybody being reinforcing the idea of heteronormativity isn't just a few like 70% change their mind and 30% stuck with it that's just bolstering the already imagined to be completely dominant few it's really kind of anti progress right because it views the idea that power structures

► 01:30:56

always rooted in some identity Whoever has it there's more straight people and gay people okay so therefore straight people always have power there for anything that reinforces heteronormativity is going to be a catastrophe that reinforces the next thing you know people going to be beating gays in the snow or something like that it's also the complete infantile ization of young adults because you're telling me these young adults aren't smart enough to differentiate between good ideas and bad idea of well-read person who's got some rock solid ideas about people being able to live their lives without discrimination and all the things that I'm sure we all agree on and you sat and listened to some right-wing all right asshole is spewing hate is it going to change it was going to affect you so who is effect

► 01:31:56

who who are these ideas going to reach why do we assume that people are so much more easily influence than we are what what is that about this isn't this infantile ization of young adults on kids I just published a book coddling of the American mind and I think if you look at Heights work and they had her docs Academy and he's fighting for this but we have infant infantilize people we have infantilize students and I don't I hope that's the tightest changing I don't know one of the things we wanted to do with this project is give people the opportunity to speak out and say you know they don't speak for me I want to hear what someone has to say about immigration the other side I want to hear which I want to hear the best argument because then I want to engage them myself and I also think that we should

► 01:32:56

of people of all I think it's a problem that people who go into teaching of the board this study I read the overwhelming percentage of people called who caters around the time on the left I think that's a problem I think that they need diverse voices diversity also has to be ideological diversity and if you want people to be less brittle and if you want people to be less infantilized they have to hear the other side but they have to hear this is also Mills idea they have to hear it from people who believe it that's in John Stuart Mill's book on Liberty his it's not enough to have heard that the other side the arguing from the other side exist you need to hear the best case before it by people who really really subscribe to it and then work against that if you can defeat that then it deserves to be defeated right yeah this is the thing I think you know in general human beings we are all wrong most of the time we're all smart guy smart woman whatever we're all pretty stupid we put forth a lot of ideas

► 01:33:56

most of them are wrong true for everybody true for you me everybody and what we should really be relying on as you know I put down 90 and you're like oh I don't know about that until we start cutting away the bullshit that I talked into my stuff I didn't have right we do that and now the idea that survives that process is better and then somebody else comes on his weight weight that part's probably a little bit bullshit but this you could add to it and make it better and then some that's wrong in this is the process of how to write a paper to support it and then if you criticize it you had who criticized it because you were sexist or because you were racist if you do a scientific test that shows that it's wrong the science must have been sexist racist you know anything once you're doing that you're just you're really in the weeds you're not helping anybody and we need to study these areas gender and race but we need to do it right

► 01:34:56

and we need to do it where you can just talk you don't get accused of all such a horrible transgressions and that's not that's the culture that that's not the culture we have no everyone is really inside ND politics I think we can all agree problem another problem is identifying personally with ideas where these ideas are connected to your ego identity identity her about that and it sounds like I'm just going to go after a religion but it's actually the culmination of my study of Religion psychology and so really what it was was targeting I mean talks about what's going on with religion and why people believe religion what God actually stands for in terms of you know psychology is it might see it but then what is really targeting was I saw all these people who are like you know Latin

► 01:35:56

and they were like this and that the other thing I have is Hope Community and I saw holy shit they're doing the same thing yes and what are they doing there identifying as an atheist what does it mean to be a good atheist the fuck you be a good atheist doesn't make any sense you remember atheism plus a dozen-plus was exactly what I was asking that grow like smoking a joint laugh my fucking ass off at this dork who is speaking in front of some other group of dorks there were all part of the atheism plus movement and he just cap just ranting about sexual harassment and diversity and all these different things at exactly exactly exactly right hidrogen saw it straight through it

► 01:36:50

it was so funny cuz the guy was such a virtue signaling little weasel but it is those I got to be a good atheist how do I do it well I don't know cuz I don't believe stuff of a certain kind so that is so strange it didn't work those people are still grumbling around or whatever but what happened to project straight white men we have bad motivations motivations that's we get all the time because there's three white men running around looking for vagina and anything you say is basically just a little sneaky way for you to get inside of a vagina

► 01:37:50

that way it is right but the truth is if they think this is the Article of Faith ears that privilege exist and always preserves itself what's supposed to be but isn't social justice work it's bad social justice working capital social justice screwed up so we could have sides that therefore why we must be because we're white man trying to solve a problem that was a depth of there their analysis given that there you know like some of my professors and stuff that's the best I could come up with better say it you know what there's a problem and we want to study this stuff and we need to clean house and thank you guys we appreciate it but you would have to step so far out of your belief system and be subjective and so self aware that you're realizing you're in some sort of a Preposterous group and that very few people are willing to admit that most of the lights work has been nonsense especially when you get rewarded for that you get

► 01:38:50

bloated for that you could actually it's from that you carry status and privilege

► 01:38:56

join some fucking wacky call like they don't join it saying I have this is bullshit but it'll be fun they date believe it they buy into it and this is no different is like we were talking about about ideologies of people live lock into these predetermined patterns of thinking and behavior and this is what's happening here and it's very much like a call it's very much like any other group think it's sort of environment it's like Scientology who else in the University so everything they put out about feet ins and volcanoes or whatever they've got all of sudden that's not like just crazy you know El Ron Hubbard did was a Dianetics or whatever that's gold standard knowledge Academic Press Oxford you know so you get a degree and then they don't understand you know they think we just talk to each other in a bubble we talk to policymakers we talk to Media has like no shit that's why we did this you know you talk to other people

► 01:39:55

you are running into you know. Sorry HR departments are telling him how to do the diversity officers and all the socializing there is a year before all this we did this really you know bad attempt at a Cubs conceptual penis as a social construct so we said that penises are social constructs and they cause climate change and it's got a little bit of it I've been getting emails ever since then from some member of EU Parliament and they're like we have another gender initiative that we're going to try to basically forced upon me you and then it's going to like dictate how Europe now works for the Africa going forward about climate and so because I wrote this conceptual penis and climate change thing and it's all based on you making fun of gender studies it was at the time anyway they were like you know you're an expert smelly used Colony you know what do we do about this gender initiative but that's real right that you Harlem it's not like nothing that's not that's not know it's not like a meeting of some dorks had a conference

► 01:40:55

that's real they're coming up with policy to dictate how they want to interact with with Africa for the next 30 years that's real and these people are emailing me saying this scholarship that you guys are criticizing is really you know it's on the agenda of the EU Parliament so help but it seems like what we're at what we have here is sort of a wave of ideas right if he goes in and it goes out it's going back and forth you need this sort of balancing act and things need to go so Haywire that people step in and go on pulling my fucking kids out of Evergreen State Yep this is crazy but that's a great example of a place that went too far and what we don't want to have happen is we don't want people to pull their kids out of the University's know cuz there are some University but these departments don't major in it exactly

► 01:41:55

specific gender studies critical race studies cultural studies queer theory that studies if it happens to have one biography a guy who teaches critical whiteness oh yeah critical whiteness is a thing just before we went public with all this I got asked about it it luckily I read it because it we didn't mind Kampf course Israel's like you got mine conf published oh my God we need to talk to you Israel TV TV what the hell it's all right all these Israeli journalist or calling me talking to me about it and over the mic off and I read this one paper they're like what do you think that Jewish studies is like this and I found this paper just before this all came out that was Jewish studies criticizing critical whiteness studies because there's this whole thing about how the critical whiteness people who accuse the Jews of being white and then there's all this you know who's

► 01:42:55

where does the oppression lie cuz you know the Jews have had a pretty rough over you know the last two thousand years or thereabouts but then you got the critical know they're white it's a white privilege Bubba blah and then Jewish studies people are like hold up you know don't put us up here and say that we're all white supremacist yeah we were gassed by the white supremacist chill out so there's this huge like critical studies fight between the Jewish studies people and the and the critical whiteness people over whether Jews count as white people or not and have white supremacy built-in then they asked me about Israeli Journal said and I was like what you know

► 01:43:34

I have to sympathize with what they're their argument is but they're still using the same broken methods and so you still want to see better methods right I think the the the Jewish people have a point you know we've been pretty heavily oppressed for 2000 years you start with like another Romans decimating them in the diaspora and then Holocaust and everything is just not good so I think they have a point that you know don't just say oh we have crazy white privilege into their for a white supremacist but if you want to do that you know maybe this this methodology of complaining about it's not the best way to go complicated stuff but at least they are there against the critical whiteness stuff this critical whiteness thing you were saying is they have a journal they did the Journal of whiteness studies or something like it lasted for about 3 years I don't know exactly why it fell apart but it fell apart cuz I was really upset cuz I wanted to send a paper to it and it doesn't exist anymore

► 01:44:34

what day were you going to send the paper on the rewrite of Minecon for the woman the lesbian woman Dick's crates around whiteness it was going to send it to that journal and it doesn't exist anymore so I had to send it to a critical race Journal who said it's a good idea but your your position yourself as a good white and that's a problem so we can pay by the way we were there all of my we were completely transparent and honest with everybody cuz there's a Google Drive Google drive with every paper in there. You read my comments that everything everything is up there it's totally free for everybody how how are we drifting you know there's that sits in a Google Drive that anybody can just go download all of it I don't recall getting money for that we want it we really do think that that and I'm

► 01:45:23

yeah there you go Swedish Professor rebelles all we have is political scientist and long-term critics of identity politics and Steen Rothstein has argued that identity-based disciplines like grievance studies which deals with the concept of collective guilt have no place in Academia yeah grievance studies is yeah right on yeah we we we came up with study so delighted to see that that's caught on I want to start a podcast and a patreon page so that you don't have to worry about losing your house right exactly God damn monster

► 01:46:23

watch out for the fuck up just texting me I was just text me pictures that all full it's crazy in this energy and that place is crazy 5000c theaters in the rock stars Rockstar speeches for hello absolutely good for him but excited about is how many people are interested in the debate of ideas and that this is not happening on the college campuses but it's right A lot of these people that have graduated from have graduated from college or or you know in the Working World they're very fast and buy this if it's real it's what you were saying it's been suppressed for long enough now you know Jordan Peterson what was his thing is like you're not going to tell me the words I can use right when they're 78 different words for genders

► 01:47:22

safely say you're fucking crazy it's like this desperation to try to find a unique identity that you can consider to be super special or whatever it's totally but it's even crazier is he going to that like you go on these blogs I think they're mostly on Tumblr something that violates my rule never use Tumblr where they talk about the different sexual sexuality identities like different kinds of you know I'm interested in this kind of person but not this kind of person under these circumstances but not under those that has like some you know 18 syllable academic word for it now and these people whose whole I don't think your academic the best geeks on Tumblr but they come up with these crazy descriptions there's like hundreds of sexual orientations

► 01:48:06

yeah it's just people wanting to be different I think I want to be special and they're not good at anything that's one of the things that Jim said when I said I was more cynical I think that the in general the critics tend to be angry and I'm not saying that their anger is legitimate to be angry they seem to be almost universally under accomplished so upset at you cuz you have whatever a Big Show or waterfall with over there instead of a big platform on it they're just generally disagreeable people and they found these communities of other people who are in Rage 2 are also under accomplished who they can laugh they can lash out at people together and then virtue signal you know get rewarded for whatever they want to call you or whatever they want to call us or whoever else some kind of an oppressor

► 01:49:05

how we can deal with that or attempt to do this was to try to delegitimize where they get their knowledge from like what they call Knowledge what they could point do we tried to say it's not knowledge and delegitimize it but we really do need to get back to some kind of productive discussion productive politics were the far-right disown their lunatics and we disown are lunatics and we get back to work about oceans plastic whatever it is that we're talking about because right now the discourse is corrupted it we're not doing what we need to do in the academy these people are continuing to pump out this nonsense that's totally unfair that reality it's a huge problem I'm sick of it you're sick of it we're all sick and I had it or how do with these folks it just doesn't seem it doesn't seem like it sustainable

► 01:50:05

the people of color in the black indigenous people of color that they fragmented you see when you get to the critical race literature that it's like okay so you're brown or your black but you slightly lighter skin slightly darker skin slightly darker than that really dark they have different levels of privileges just cutting things apart the idea that was at this is going to create some kind of defeat you know the mill plurality or something like that is really starting to blow up you see the Democrats bleed seats they lost like a thousand legislative seats across the us since Obama got elected in 08

► 01:50:43

how you going to get your agenda if you don't have some legislators if you don't have anybody elected and so then what happens 2016 I don't I can't say that the reason the Trump got elected cuz there's lots of reasons had something to do with no I will say I had something to do with this because every conservative person I know that's not just a reactionary is like and I live in the Southeast man I have some conservative most of my friends are conservatives cuz I don't have a choice if I if I wanted friends of good-looking to be conservatives who lives there so I talked to them and they're like oh yeah they're tearing down this kind of statue oh yeah it's it's not like there are 10 of Thomas Jefferson you know it's like they're George Washington George Washington Halloween the problem then I didn't know you didn't know how your shark Mako Mermaids power

► 01:51:43

tell me what I am I don't know I'll try to figure out a paper for that apologizes for Tropic Thunder Simple Jack costume dress up as a black person mentally handicapped guy everywhere black face that show Tropic Thunder is problematic I don't even know how to fly a movie it's wonderful you'll love it and it's it's special fucking great movie it's a great movie and ableist for saying that is funny

► 01:52:43

preparation going on so somebody might dress up like a foot on a sombrero on a poncho as an issue yeah and then this America there's a big stink just now about the Victoria Secret fashion show where they had like their indigenous in a colors and their feathers they were wearing and walking around half-naked you can't do that people are going to take costumes that are insensitive to other people appropriation appropriation so it's not possible for a Harvard maybe because he's Asian and it gets complicated than I thought for sure so we store

► 01:53:43

put out an email saying maybe it's okay to be politically incorrect Halloween we're all adults it's probably bad to be deliberately offencive and yet it's also bad to over react incidental stuff is Mulan and that's right the highness or Pocahontas's I don't think anybody's got in trouble for being Bruce Lee like the track suit when I get out I don't have enough apps for that that's going to be a bad costume what it is yeah you can buy Bruce Lee costume look for now for now

► 01:54:43


► 01:54:46

for now baby costume look at that now wait until preparation boy this mess that were in is there a light at the end of the tunnel I think so the response that we've got so far as been really positive but saw like the secret positive so the feeling I get is the general public so the wind is changing right we got no real blowback we got we got lots of positivity from the public even academics are reaching out there like secret positive with them it's like one more thing right we need a critical mass cuz what they are as are all lined up they know the first one to step out of line and challenge yourself getting shots liquid communist situation after communism fell nobody really believes anymore but

► 01:55:46

to go along with the party going to get shot but if a whole bunch of people come for it once I can shoot everybody so it feels like we're in that Powder Keg situation now right where all it's going to take is we hope it was going to be yes you know how are things going to be the trigger they let 30% of academics come forward to seeing you know it's bullshit and if enough people start saying it other people surfing on safe to say it we wish more people feel safe you know we took a risk it been fine for us we'll see what happens to pee but if more people will take that risk and start speaking out then there's a change coming know you work you were a mathematician that's your background in Academia that would appear at least to be something that is beyond all this stuff because he's just dealing with number mostly is not been touched by the branch in there that's called the studies of Science and Technology and mostly what they go after is you know the Sciences or whatever they especially they go after biology and psychology and leafy

► 01:56:46

they've got a lot of inroads into that we were at the astronomy paper to try to push that all the way to a hard science we said the astronomy is sexist and can only be fixed by putting Enquirer horoscopes they thought that was a good project they keep asking him to rewrite an email yesterday asking for that when I get off so where you see the stuff hitting though they don't I mean some people say that math is inherently got sex isn't racing because I guess apparently women and minorities are going to be naturally bad at numbers of what they're assuming I don't know what they're so it's ludicrous but they mostly go after education so they say oh look the scores for the SAT Math scores or whatever for for men white men are higher than 4 for black men or something like that why could that be well you know maybe there are a lot of factors that go into that but they don't give a shit about a lot of factors it's racism so therefore math education must be raised this therefore we need social justice issues in math education and that's exactly what they do

► 01:57:46

so then you have diversity math and I don't even know what that is but it's not something that you would see like it mathematics research level it something that you see at Junior High School elementary school if they're teaching your kids which is why it's scary as hell

► 01:58:01

so is there a light at the end of the tunnel and what are you still think there's a lot I think people hate this stuff I think people are getting outside it but they're afraid repeatedly last week this guy's got to pay cheese brilliant guy comes after me repeatedly what you do too so important so no sorry I can't talk about it I'm sorry I can't talk about I wish I could talk about it but I talk to Amex and everybody saying the same thing they know you got them it's only a matter of time now one more event in the shake off the fear I think it's close I don't know what the next event is I don't think it's more bogus papers I think it's probably somebody getting fired the didn't deserve it or something like that one more thing and people are going to be ready to shake this off why does this ideology info Tech companies

► 01:58:51

and it seems to get them more than it gets anyone else other day just going well don't say where he's working all definitely not they'll go after him I don't know why it's in text so much maybe there's some kind of Silicon Valley connection there or whatever where you know Silicon Valley is you know what kind of Bay Area California you've got a lot of those liberal heavy stuff that started out as you were talking about sixties and seventies so it's kinda in the water there in general I would say that what you're seeing is at the stuff as they the big turn to making the supplied was in the 90s right so they've had an entire generation of students that have just been really getting the stuff crammed dollar throw they really have taken over the education in the last 10 years it was just starting when I left Academia in 2010 that you know I was like oh we're going to focus on diversity diversity commit commitment was going to get in the general curriculum

► 01:59:51

getting more and more students that are getting educated in this other than going out of the workplace right so if half your Workforce in Tech because Tech move so fast I'm just guessing why this might be a thing Tech news really fast so you've got some fresh training go in there if they've been educated with diversity stuff crammed down their throat the whole time

► 02:00:11

and there's huge initiatives to try to you know increase representation of women in particular in in Tech

► 02:00:17

and these are seen as you know automatically good initiatives if there's been this is the culture that there that they're being educated in and then they take that culture to the workplace and think this is what tech is about number surrounded by like-minded people who encourage it it's totally possible that that what you've got to sort of a tech Echo chamber that's bouncing me things around and keeping it keeping it there

► 02:00:41

here's another question why is it that I mean it. Here's here's here's a scenario right the scenario is universities are almost predominantly taught by people that are on the left it's a massive it's in the 90% range right

► 02:00:58

when you have this sort of environment of these nonsense ideas that are accepted as fact and Todd and and put in to publish papers

► 02:01:11

then you have a situation where the left routinely attacks itself right and in in devours itself right for not being left enough you're always having people that are upset that someone's not Progressive enough left-wing people attacking left-wing people you do not see that on the right power there cuz they were an academic yeah that shift started in the sixties and seventies they started bringing in Marshfield when was that was during the Obama Administration was it they're going to get primaried from the right so they were going to have some populist Yahoo go screaming about whatever they scream about is going to be more to the right harder conservatism conservative movement Capital C capital a kind of thing they're going to just drill into that you know the reason that that the conservative politics aren't succeeding is because we're not conservative enough that's the prevailing view where I live in the southeast

► 02:02:11

the same thing as you seem University's but reversed in terms of polarisation so but there isn't that just an excuse for the lack of success it is it's what would the people on the left combined with a commitment to the ideology whether it's a conservative movement ideology whether it's social justice scholarship whatever happens to be right but you see far more of these left on left attacks and do right on right attacks on people trying to beat their opponents sure sure sure it just it seems to me that there's somehow or another related I mean I would like to look at how many people on the left will attack others for not being Progressive enough not being left enough so I think it's a panic right you said this is so

► 02:03:11

play the third person work on the project was Helen and I wrote an essay about a year-and-a-half ago and talking about how the extremism on both sides is really the problem and most people reject it should fight it most of us in the middle who hate disinfect day to just come out showing that it's 80% of the population the date the fringes both sides so and only 8% sure on the left and 12% around the right of The Fringe car that works out and so we wrote this thing and we said it was going on actually we called it an existential polarisation so you have this idea that everything's an existential crisis so the far-right will start with them seize that if the Democrats get power outlets open borders a terrorist or coming in our entire way of life is going to be destroyed catastrophe catastrophe oh no. Butler's 1995 genders quick stop the Democrats no matter what and then you have the left ohmygod if they get power that everything's on me racist we're going to be beating gays in the snow

► 02:04:11

just be the worst thing in the whole world that the world is going to fall apart if the other side gets power so when you have that kind of a situation slightest bit of Advantage happening on the other side it's just something to completely freaked out about and then what do you do you say all the only possible recipe to balance the scale of Saturn further our way if we go toward the middle that puts the balance say if the right goes really far right and we on the left move for the middle now the whole balance has moved right so the only way to keep the balance close to the middle is if they go right we go left or right Dennis and keep the balance for what that actually does is it this is going to get nerdy hang on that actually puts all of the weight on the outsides me think about a spinning thing right it's got centrifical force is happening what's that trying to just going to rip the spinny thing apart of the middle it's like a wheel it doesn't come apart right now imagine if you had like two billiard balls and you have like this big long stick

► 02:05:11

and there's two holes for the belly of Arts that they don't go in at like locked in there just sitting there you spend that was going to happen if fly right off right so you have all the way down the outside you start spinning thing so that's like the political conversations Dynamic is going to rip the thing apart the more weight get to the outside so once I go into The Fringe doesn't mean the other side go to the French that's how you tear a nation apart like an object is really a damn good YouTube video floating around out there was somebody takes a Jetta water and Spins a skateboard Wheel & Tilt centrifical Force gets so high from spinning so fast it ripped it apart it's it's worth looking up I don't know what the hell your search to find it but it's a powerful Visual and you can see it at stuff moves to the outside the centrifical force goes up and up and up until finally the thing that the structural Integrity of the thing that spinning can't hold us all together any when it rips apart well listen gentleman and shout out to your friend what is her name like across the pond

► 02:06:11

thank you guys for doing this I really appreciate it man. I appreciate your support because we need support week we can't do this without support so thanks for having us at my pleasure thanks for doing it where can people see these things where can they read them the best place to go is going to be to go to our filmmakers YouTube page Mike Naina on the YouTube. Just like and a y n a n a y a n on his YouTube page is some videos he's going to playing with the footage that he's collecting for the documentary on top of that though if you go to the video we originally released which is on the page you can find it easily There's the link to the Google Drive is linked to all of the documents we put out Ontario to explain that what every paper does why we wrote it but we were trying to show with writing the papers what the problem is that we need to address and what you know what we think that this shows and what we can do it's all accessible through his YouTube channel we're kind of making of a central Hub and so people can go there and explore and watch some more videos of us in

► 02:07:11

well thanks for being here this is a lot of fun games should I really appreciate what you guys doing thank you thank you

► 02:07:19

thank you everyone for tuning in to the show and thank you to Primal kitchen get yourself up free jar of Chipotle lime Mayo my personal favorite get it at Primal kitchen.com Rogen and just check out all the other amazing stuff they have over at Primal kitchen.com so Primal kitchen.com Rogan go there and they will give you a free jar of Chipotle lime Mayo made with 100% pure avocado oil cage-free eggs no gluten no grain no sugar no industrial process oil has a ton of flavor and makes any paleo keto or other meal taste delicious

► 02:08:06

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► 02:09:05

send $5 to Justin Brands fight for the Forgotten charity building Wells for the pygmies in the Congo all right that's it today my friends much love to you all thank you so much