#1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzel

The Joe Rogan Experience #1211 - Dr. Ben Goertzel

December 4, 2018

Dr. Ben Goertzel is the founder and CEO of SingularityNET, a blockchain-based AI marketplace. 

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my guest today is dr.ben

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herzl is a hard word to say g o e t h e o r g e r t z e l heard him say it isn't unusual accent will not an accent he is a beautiful accent V he lives in Hong Kong as well as in America so I'm sure he picks up a little bit of

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Aditi he is

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from an organization called singularitynet and they are building the global AI Network and benevolent AI for the technological singularity that's their own description we talked in Great Lengths about artificial intelligence and blockchain and also it's really interesting and nerdy stuff that I really truly enjoy it so please welcome Ben goertzel

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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all day

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hello Ben and I are going to see a man yeah it's a pleasure to be here thanks for doing this yeah yeah I've been looking at some of your shows and in the last last few days just to get a sense of how you're thinking about Ai and crypto in the various other things out I'm involved in it is it's been interesting in following you as well I've been paying attention to a lot of your lectures and talks and different things you've done over the last couple days as well getting ready for this it's either people are really excited about it with a really terrified of it those are the sort it seems to be the two responses either people have this dismal view of these robots taking over the world or they think it's going to be some amazing sort of symbiotic relationship that we have these things is going to involve human beings passed out the monkey stage that we're at right now

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positive side of this dichotomy but I think one thing that has struck me in recent years is many people are now you know mentally confronting all the issues running a high for the first time and I'm and I've been working on the AI through three decades and I first started thinking about a guy when I was a little kid in the late 60s and early 70s when I saw a eyes and robots on the original Star Trek so I guess I've had a lot of Cycles to process the positives and negatives of it where it's now it's like suddenly most of the world is thinking to all this for the first for the first time and you know when you first drop your brain around the idea that

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there may be creatures ten thousand or a million times smarter than human beings at first this is a bit of a shocker right then then then I mean it takes a while to internalize this in your worldview well it's that this also I think there's a problem with the term artificial intelligence cuz it's it's it's intelligent it's there it's a real thing yet it's not artificial sound like a fake diamond door fake Ferrari it's a real thing and there's been many attempts to replace it with synthetic intelligence fruit for example for better or worse I get a eye is there as part of the popular imagination that seems it's an imperfect but it's it's not going away my question is like are we married to this idea of intelligence and of life being biological being carbon-based tissue and cells and blood and

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extra mammals or fish oil we married to that too much do you think that it's entirely possible that what human beings are doing and what people that are at the the tip of a I right now that are really pushing the technology what they're doing is really creating a new life-form that it's it's going to be a new thing that just the same way we recognize wasps and buffalo artificial intelligence is just going to be a life-form that emerges from the creativity and Ingenuity of human being indeed so I'm an advocate of a philosophy I think of us as paternalism like it's the pattern of organization that appears to be that the critical thing and then the end of the individual cells sun going down further like the molecules and particles in our body are are turning over all the time so it's not the specific combination of Elementary particles which makes me who I ever makes you who you are

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it's a pattern by which they're organized in the patterns by which they change over time so it I mean if we can create digital systems quantum computers or phones or computers or whatever it is manifesting the patterns of organization that constitute intelligence and then then that's not to say that Consciousness and experience is just about patterns of organization there may be more Dimensions to it but when when you look at what constitutes intelligence thinking cognition problem solving you know it's the pattern of organization not not this specific material as as as far as we can tell so we can see no reason basement all the science that we know so far that you couldn't make an intelligent system out of some other form of matter rather than the specific types of atoms and molecules that that that make up human beings and it seems that were were well on the way

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good being able to do so when you're studying when you study intelligence restarting artificial intelligence did you spend any time studying the patterns that insects seem to cooperatively behave with like a whole leaf cutter ants build these elaborate structures underground and Mina wasps build these giant colonies and did you study how I actually is so I I I sort of grew up with the philosophy of complex systems which was Champion by that by the Santa Fe Institute in in in the 1980s in the whole concept that there is an interdisciplinary complex systems science which includes you know biology cosmology psychology sociology the sort of universal patterns of of self-organization and you know ants and ant colonies have long been the Paradigm case for that I used to play with

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found these in my backyard. When I was a kid and you lay down food in certain teed see how their answer laying down pheromones in the colonies are organizing it in the in the certain that's an interesting self-organizing complex system on its own it's lacking some types of adaptive intelligence that that youman mines in human societies but it has also interesting self organizing patterns this reminds me of the novel Solaris by stanislaw Lem which was published in the 60s which was really quite a deep novel much deeper than the the movie that was made of it did you ever read that book so that is so what by tarkovsky the Russian director from the late sixties then there was a movie by Steven Soderbergh which was sort of glammed up in American eyes and lips

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it wasn't didn't get all the Deep points in the novel The Original novel and that since there's this there's is ocean coding the surface of some alien planet which has amazingly complex fractal patterns of organization and it's also interactive like the patterns of organization on the ocean respond based on on what you do and when people get near the ocean it causes them to hallucinate things and even caused them to see simulacra of people from their past even though like the person who they had most harmed or injured in their past appears and interact with them so clearly this ocean as some type of amazing complexity and intelligence from the pattern that displays I'm from the weird things that reeks in your mind so that the people on Earth try to understand how the ocean is thinking they send the scientific Expedition there to to interact with that ocean but it's just so alien even though it Mom

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he's with people's minds and Chloe is doing complex things no two way communication is ever is ever established in eventually the the human exhibition gives up and goes home so I guess that's a very Russian ending to the novel I guess it's not but that the

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the insurance interesting message there is I mean there can be many many kinds of intelligence right I'm in human intelligence is one thing the intelligence of a net, is a different thing the intelligence of human society is a different thing ecosystem is a different thing and there could be many many types of a eyes that we could go good many many different properties some could be wonderful to human being sung to be harmful to human beings some could just be alien Minds that that we can't even relate relate relate to very very well so we we have a very limited conception of what an intelligence is if we just think by close analogy to to human minds and this this is important if you're thinking about engineering or growing artificial life-forms or artificial mind cuz it's not just can we do this it's what kind of Mines are are are we

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engineer or evolve and there's a huge spectrum of possibilities yeah that's one of the reasons why I asked if we'd created if human beings have created some sort of an insect and the sensex started organizing and developing these complex colonies like a leaf cutter ant and building the structures on the ground people go crazy there Panic they would think these things are organized and they're going to they're going to build up the resources and attack us are going to try to take over Humanity I mean this what would people worried about more than anything when it comes to technology I think is the idea that we're going to be irrelevant that we're going to be Antiques and that something new and better is going to take our place which is the which is on the history of biological life on Earth I mean what we know is there's complex things that become more, to go single celled organisms to multi celled organism that seems to be a pattern leading up to us and us with this

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unprecedented ability to change our environment that's what we can do right we can manipulate things poison the environment we can blow up entire countries with bombs if we'd like to invite can also do while creative things like send signals through space and land on someone else's phone on the other side of the world almost instantaneously we have incredible power but we're also we're also so limited by our biology yeah the thing I think people are afraid of and I'm afraid I'll but I don't know if it makes any sense is that the next

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level of Life whatever artificial life is or whatever the the human symbiot is that it's going to lack emotions it's going to lack desires and needs and all the things that we think are special about us our creativity our desire for attention and love all of our camaraderie all these different things are so programmed into us with with our genetics in order to advance our species that we were so connected to these things but they're so the reason for war that the reason for the lies deception thievery so many things that are built into being a person that are responsible for all the woes of humanity but were afraid to lose it but I think it's it's

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almost inevitable by this point that you Maddie is going to create

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synthetic intelligences with tremendously greater general intelligence and practical capability than human beings have I mean I think I know how to do that with the software I'm working on with my own team but if we fail you know there's a load of other teams who I think you're a bit behind us we're going in the same direction that alright so so I do but I also think

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that's not the most important thing from a human perspective the most important thing is that you might be as a whole is quite close to this this threshold event so how far do you think it's quite close by my own gut feeling V 230 years let's say that's pretty close but if I'm wrong and it's a hundred years like in the historical time scale that started doesn't matter it's like did the Sumerians great civilization 10,000 of 10050 years ago like what what difference does it make I think we're quite close to creating superhuman artificial general intelligence and that's in a way almost inevitable given where we are now on the other hand I think we still have some agency regarding whether this comes out in a way that you know respects human values and culture which are important to us now given to him what we are

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is essentially indifference to human values in in culture in the same way that we're mostly indifferent to chimpanzee values in and culture at that. I'm completely different to insect values and culture not completely if you think about it I mean if I'm building a new house I will both a bunch of ants but yet we get upset if we extinct an insect species some level but not but we we would like to super size to care about us more than we care about insects or org this this is something we can impact right now and 2 to be honest I mean in a certain part of my mind. I can think well like in in the end

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I don't matter that much and I for kids don't matter that much my granddaughter doesn't matter that much like patterns of organization in the very long then you matter very much to you rather you know dinosaurs came and went and Neanderthals humans may come and go make the nature of the universe been on the other hand of course in my heart from my situated perspective an individual human like if if some day I tried to annihilate my 8 my ten-month-old son that would try to kill that are situated in this specific you know species place and time I care a lot about the condition of of all of us humans and so I would like to not only create a powerful general intelligence but but create one which witches

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is going to be beneficial to humans and then other life-forms on the planet even while in some ways going going Beyond ever everything that we are right and there can't be any guarantees about something like this on the other hand

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emoji is really never had any

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guarantees about anything anyway right I mean since since since since we created civilization we've been leaping into the unknown one time after the other and it is somewhat conscious and self-aware way about it from you know agriculture to language to math to the Industrial Revolution leaving into the unknown all the time which is part of why we're where we are today instead of just another animal species we can't have a guarantee that a GI is artificial general intelligence as we create are going to do what we consider the right thing giving their current value systems on the other hand

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I suspect you can buy us the odds in the favor of human values and and culture and that's something of I've put a lot of thought and work into alongside the you know the basic algorithms of artificial cognition is the issue that the initial creation would be subject to our programming but that it could perhaps program something more efficient and design something like if you build creativity tomorrow yeah but is the issue that it would choose to not accept our values which it might find will choose not to accept our values so it's more a matter of whether they ongoing creation evolution of new values occurs with some continuity and respect for the previous

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you and kids now one is a baby but the other three are adults riding with each of them I took the approach to trying to teach the kids my values were not just by entering Woodman into situations but then you know when your kids grow up they're going to go in their own different directions right and enemies are humans but you but I'm sort of biological needs which is one of the most you can pick up the end we're starting them off with our culture and values if we do it properly or at least with a certain subset of the hold diverse self-contradictory mess of human culture and values but you know they're going to evolve in it in a different direction but you want that Evolution to take place in a reflective and and and caring way rather than the heedless

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if you think about it the average human a thousand years ago or even fifty years ago would have thought you and me were like hopelessly immoral mystery onto it abandon all the valuable thing things in life right I might not ever I guess I mean my mother is lesbians right I mean there's all these things that we take for granted that not that long ago were completely against what most humans considered the most important values of Life trapping human values itself is completely removing a moving Target and something in our generation pretty radical a very radical child I lived in New Jersey for 9 years of my childhood

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the level of racism and anti-Semitism in sexism that were just taken for granted then this was a major Yeah Yeah Yeahs going to 6673 280-260-7273 like my sister went to the high school prom with a with a black guy and so we got our car turned upside of our house and it was like a humongous thing and it's almost unbelievable now right now no one would give me some french parts of the skull and there is no fixed list of values human values it's an ongoing evolving

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I'm what you want is for the evolution of the ai's values to be coupled closely with the evolution of human values rather than going off in some other Lee different direction that we can't even understand that this is literally playing God right I mean if you're talking about like trying to program in values I don't think artificial values that fully you can program in a system for learning and growing values and he is not hopeless telling telling your kids these are the 10 things that are important doesn't work that well right as you enter into situations they see how you deal with the situations you guide them in dealing with real situations that forms their system of values and this is what needs to happen with a I need to grow up entering into real

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five situations would you mind being so that the real life patterns of human values which are the homilies that we enunciate the real life patterns of human values gets in car located like into the intellectual DNA of the of the AI systems and this is about the weather is going at this moment because I mean most of the really powerful narrow eyes on the planet now or involved with selling people stuff they don't need spying on people are like figuring out who should be killed or otherwise abused by some government right so if the early Stage AE eyes that we build turn into general intelligence is gradually and these intelligences are you know spy agents and advertising agents then like what what what mindset do these early Stage AE eyes have it as they grow up right if they don't have any problem

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call Ian ethically with manipulating us which were very malleable right we're so easy to manipulate teaching them teaching them to manipulate people for doing it so that this is this is one of these things that from the outside point of view might not seem to be all that until just did it it it's sort of like gun laws in the US living in Hong Kong I mean most people don't have a bunch of guns sitting around their house and coincidentally there there are not that many random shootings happening in Hong Kong right yeah you look in the US it's like somehow you have lots of all run. Lunatics to buy all the guns they want and you have all these people getting shot so similarly like

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from the outside you could look at it like this species is creating the successor intelligence and almost all the resources going into creating their successor intelligence are going into making a eyes to do surveillance like military drones and advertising agency I need know what I think about what's wrong with this picture cuz that's where the money is like this is that the use of the introduction to it and then like right now that's where this word Financial a viable the most attention are the financial lowest hanging fruit project I'm doing with my team we're looking at a i to you know diagnosed

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so you can you can look at images of plant leaves you can look at data from the soil and atmosphere and you can project disease in a plant is likely to progressed badly or not which of you do you need medicine for the planet do you need pesticides now this this isn't interesting area of application it's probably quite financially lucrative than in a way but it's more complex industry then then selling stuff online so the fraction of resources going into AI for agriculture is very small then like e-commerce or so I can write about culture to predicting diseases yeah yeah but there's a lot of specific aspects papers on the applied to medicine since the 80s and 90s but the amount of effort going into that compared to advertising your surveillance is very small. This has to do with the structure of the pharmaceutical business

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compared to the structure of the tech business so you only look into it there's there's there's good reasons there's good reasons for for everything right but nevertheless the way things are coming out coming down right now is certain diocese to the development of early Stage AE eyes are are very market and then you could you could you could see them and I mean I'm trying to do something about that to go to with my colleagues in and then singularitynet but of course we're so it's sort of a David versus Goliath thing trying to do something different and I think it's awesome what you guys are doing but it just makes sense to me that the first applications are going to be the ones that are more financially viable it's like what the first stations were military right I mean until about 10 years ago 85% of all u.s. plus plus Western Europe militaries

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money and commerce are inexorably linked to Innovation and Technology because there's this sort of thing that we do as a culture where we're constantly trying to buy in purchase bigger and better things we always want the newest iPhone the greatest laptop we don't want them to the coolest electric cars whatever it whatever it is and this fuels Innovation is this desire for new greater things materialism in a lot of ways fuels Innovation because this is how there's an argument that as we approach a technological singularity

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we need new systems cuz if you look at that things have happened during the last century what's happened is the governments of funded most of the Court Innovation I'm in this is well known that like most of the technology inside a smartphone was funded by US Government a little about European government GPS and the batteries and everything and then companies scouted off that didn't they they made it user-friendly they decrease cost of manufacturing and this process occurs with a certain time cycle to a government spends and universities and then industry spends Decades of the scaled up and make it palatable to two users and you know this

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matured probably since World War II that this sort of modality for technology development but now that things are developing faster and faster and faster there's sort of not time for that cycle to occur where the government and universities incubate new ideas for a while and then technology Scout it up so creative Innovation to happen but some our other news new structures are going to have to evolve to to make it happen and you can see everyone struggling to figure out what these are some of this is why you have I mean you have big companies embracing open source Google releases tensorflow and then there's a lot of lot of other different things and I think I think some projects in the cryptocurrency world have been looking at that too like how can we use tokens to incentivize new independent scientists and inventors to to do new stuff without them having to be in the government research laboratory

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we're going to need the evolution of new systems of innovation and of Technology transfer things are developing faster and faster and faster in this is another thing that's sort of got me interested in the whole decentralized world and then the blockchain world is the promise of new modes of economic and social organization that can you know of the world into the research process and accelerate the technology transfer process when you're discussing this it but I think what you're saying is of one very important point that we need to move past the military Gatekeepers of Technology right next big Tech which are advertising agencies in social media things that are predicting your next purchase right

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and I'm in even in a semi democracy like like we have in the US I mean those who control the brainwashing of the public in essence control who votes for what I do controls the brainwashing of the public is advertising agencies and who increasingly of the biggest advertising agencies are the big tech companies accumulating everybody's data and then using it to to program their minds to buy thing so this is what's programming the global Varian of of of of the human race and of course they're close links between big Tech and in the military that Amazon has 25,000 person headquarters in Crystal City Virginia right next to the Pentagon I'm in China it's it's a new like military-industrial advertising complex which is is guiding the evolution of the global brain on on the

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but it went out with this past election right with all the intrusion by Foreign entities trying to influence the election that they use giant houses set up to write bad stories about whoever they don't want to be in office that's almost a red hair I mean the Russian stuff is almost to read the prophecies are which program is today programming of Americans Minds by a government sure it's it's it's weird it's it's interesting if you look at what's happening in China that's like that then what then we are

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and it's alright it's more professional it's more polished it's more centralized on the other hand for almost everyone in China China's a very good place to live and you know the level of improvement in that country in the last 30 years has just been astounding right like I mean how much better it's gotten better since its its Embrace capitalism to a certain extent arbitrary they they've created their own unique system as a you know crazy hippie libertarian anarcho socialist freedom-loving Maniac that system rubs against my grain in many ways on the other hand and periodically if you look at it it's improve the well-being of a of a tremendous number of of people so hopefully it'll balls

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it's one step away it's about Freedom love freedom-loving and even some ways in an egg negative and others like most complex night I fell in love with a Chinese woman baby recently she she's not from Hong Kong she's from mainland China I met her when she was doing her a PhD in computational linguistics and in xiamen but that was what sort of first got me to spend a lot of time and in China but then I was doing some research at Hong Kong Polytechnic University and then my good friend David Hudson was visiting me and how come I introduced him to some investors there which ended up with him bringing his company Hanson robotics to Hong Kong so now after I moved there because of of falling in love with a

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I brought my friend David there then Hanson robotics go up there and there's actually a good reason for Hanson robotics to be there cuz I'm in the best place in the world to know any facts are complex Electronics is Indian Ocean Jen run across the border from Hong Kong so now I've I've been working there with Hanson robotics on this Sophia robots another robots for for a while and I've accumulated the whole team there around Hanson Robotics and then Singularity that sell mean bye-bye now I'm there because my whole day I am robotics teams are there make sense do you follow the the state Department's recommendations to not use Huawei devices and I believe that they're even heard that when I lived him I lived in Washington DC for 9 years I did a bunch of Consulting for various government agencies their my wife is a Communist Party member actually

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just cuz she Jordan High School when it was sort of suggested for her to join so my multiple governments it doesn't it doesn't really matter in I'm not in the business of trying to overthrow any government I'm I'm in the business of trying to bypass traditional governments in traditional monetary system and all the rest by creating new methods of organization of people and an information but it is unusual if the government is actually spying on people through this device out of going into too much detail like when I was in DC working with various government agencies it became clear

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there is tremendously more information obtained by government agencies than most people realize this was before Snowden and Wikileaks and all these Revelations what is publicly understood now is

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probably not the full scope of of of the information that governments have either so I'm in privacy is is pretty much dead than David. Do you know. You should definitely interview David. Amazing God he's a well-known science fiction writer in California called the transparent Society where he said there's two possibilities surveillance and surveillance it's like the power elite watching everyone or everyone watching everyone this is essentially the only two viable possibility we should be choosing and then creating which of these Alternatives we want so now

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no the world is starting to understand what he was talking about that back when he wrote that book on the head decades in advance most of the things that are happening in the world now we're for Stanislaus the man who is the founder of Russian River the book called The phenomenon of Science in the late sixties in 1971 when I was a little kid I read a book called The Prometheus project buy a present physical Jared Jared fineberg you read a physicist book when you're five years old yes start reading when I was two of my grandfather was a physicist so I was reading a lot of stuff but he Sundberg in this book he said you know within the next few decades is going to create no technology

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to allow human biological immortality and the question will be do we want to use these Technologies you know these Technologies to promote spiritual growth of our of our Consciousness into New Dimensions of experience and what's proposed in this book in the late sixties which I read in the early 70s he proposed the UN should send a task force out to go to everyone in the world every little African village and educate the world about nanotech life extension and an aid and get the whole world to vote on whether we should develop these Technologies toward consumerism or toward Consciousness expansion so I read this when I'm a little kid it's like this is almost too obvious this makes total sense like why

► 00:46:42

why does everyone understand this then I tried to explain this to people and I'm like oh shit I guess it's going to be awhile till the world catches on so so instead decided I should know the spacecraft go away from the world at rapid speed and come back after like a million years or something when the world was far more advanced so yeah right now will then you go in another million years and come back with scientific pretty much the world agrees life extension agin nanotechnology possible things that make him about in the near future the same question is is there that that that that Feinberg saw like 50 years ago right that the same question is there like doing this for rampant consumerism or or do we develop this amazing New Dimensions of Consciousness expansion and

► 00:47:42

little growth but the UN is not in fact educating the world about this and I'm pulling them to decide democratically what to do on on the other hand there's the possibility that by bypassing governments in the UN doing something decentralized you can create a democratic framework you know within which you know what a broad swath of the world can be involved in the participatory away and guarding the direction of these advances do you think that is possible that instead of choosing that we're just going to have multiple directions that it's growing in that there's going to be consumer-based or notes me directions and it's anything besides the military advertising complex gets a shake if you look in the software development World open source is is an amazing thing Linux is awesome and it's led to the so much

► 00:48:42

being open open source now open source didn't have to actually take over the entire software world like Richard stallman wanted in order to have a huge impact it's enough that it's a major for solo I mean to be content doesn't it open source in a lot of ways has probably thousands of people working on Linux like apple the guy that is a hippie concept but it became very practical right so I mean something like 75% of all the servers running the internet are based in Linux you know the vast majority of mobile phone OS is is it is Lennox this hit on the back this crazy thing where no one owns the code it didn't have to overtake the whole software economy and become everything to become highly valuable and then inject a different

► 00:49:42

Dimension into things and I think this is the same is true with decentralized AI which were looking at with Singularity and I liked it it doesn't we don't have to actually put Google in the US and Chinese military $0.10 out of business write-off if that happens that that's that's fine but it's enough that we become an extremely major player in that ecosystem so that this you know participatory and benefit oriented aspect becomes a really significant component of how humanity is is is is developing general intelligence accepted generally accepted that human beings will consistently and constantly innovate right it just seems to be characteristic that we have yep why do you think that is and what did you think that that's especially in terms of creating something like artificial intelligence like why build our successors like why why do that again

► 00:50:42

what is it about us that makes us want to constantly make bigger better things

► 00:50:49

well that's a interesting question in the history of of

► 00:50:55

biology which I may not be the most qualified person to answer it is an interesting question and I think it has something to do with the weird way in which

► 00:51:07

we embody various contradictions that we're always trying to resolve like we are social animals like cats are very individual we're like trapped between the two right there where someone individual and end and somewhat social and then and then and then since we created civilization it's it's it's even worse because I have certain aspects which are which are wanting to confirm with the group in the tribe another is what you're wanting to innovate and then break out of that and we're sort of Trapped in these biological and cultural contradictions which tend to drive Innovation but I think there's a lot there that no one understands and the roots of the human psyche evolutionarily but as an empirical fact what you said is is is is is very true right like we're driven to seek novelty were driven to create new things and listen to prove

► 00:52:07

is which is driving the creation of a I I don't think that alone would make the creation of AI inevitable but if we consistently innovate and it's always been a concept of me and you were talking about the concept existing 30 plus years ago why I think I keep point is it there's tremendous practical

► 00:52:29

economic advantage and stay this advantage to be gotten from a I right now and this is driving the advancement of AI to be incredibly Rapids right cuz there's some things that are interesting and would use a lot of human Innovation but they get very few resources so for example my oldest son zarathustra he's doing his pee and then the new one is cork c q r x is an acronym for Quantum organized Russian with spending intelligence of machine learning

► 00:53:29

Leslie make a Isaac and do mathematics better and to me that's like the most important thing we could be applying a I too because you know mathematics is the key to all modern science and engineering my PC was meth originally but the amount of resources going into AI for automating mathematics is not large at this present moment although that's a beautiful and amazing area for invention and Innovation and creativity so I think what's driving our rapid push toward building I I I mean it's not just start a creative it's it's the fact there's tremendous economic value military value and and human volume and curing diseases teaching kids there's tremendous value in almost everything that's important to human beings it in building a I right so you put together with our drive to create an innovate and this becomes an almost Unstoppable Force within within human society and what we seen the last you know 3 to 5 years

► 00:54:29

is suddenly your national leaders in Titans of industry and even like pop stars right they've woken up to the concept that wow smarter and smarter AI is real this is years to decades centuries to two Millennia so nobody's going to put it back and it's about you know how can we direct it in the most beneficial possible way that as you say it doesn't have to be just one possible way right like what I look forward to is by forgetting myself into an array of of possible been so I could I'd like to let one copy of me fuse itself with a super human AI mind then you know but, something Beyond I wouldn't even be myself anymore right I mean you would lose all concepts of human self and identity book

► 00:55:29

yeah well that's that's that's for the mega event to decide Mega Ball Z's in the psychological issues and then just live live happily forever you know in in the people who watched over by Machines of Loving Grace doesn't have to be either or because what once once you can scan your brain and body in 3D print new copies of yourself you can have multiple if there's a lot of energy in the universe and the universe because of you talking about where that people with money calling themselves Trump's because like literally would that I talked about wealthy people that they would like their ego to exist in multiple differ

► 00:56:29

forms whether it's some super symbiot form that's connected to artificial intelligence or some biological form its Immortal or some other form that still stands just as a normal human being as we know in 2018 but you have multiple versions of yourself over and over and over again like that that's weird what were you talking about the police can the human brain and body and 3D print more of them by that point you're at a level where scarcity of material resources is not an issue at the human scale of doing things so I see if human resources in terms of what the end it's not going to be the issue with that point people are worried about is environmental concerns of overpopulation in front of their faces right now but people are not most people

► 00:57:28

are not thinking deeply enough about what potential would be there once you had superhuman a eyes doing the situation I'm in the amount of energy in the single greatest if you hadn't been able to is is tremendously more than than most of the most people thinking the amount of computing power in a grain of sand is like a quadrillion * all the people on the Earth put together so I'm in one of the amount of computing power in a grain of sand is that could be achieved by reorganizing the number in the Deacon Stein down which is the maximum amount of information that can be can be stored in a certain amount of mass energy so that

► 00:58:28

the physics as we know them now are correct which they certainly aren't then then then that that would be the amount of computing you can do with a certain amount of mass we're very very far from that limit right now that's happened but my point is once you have something a thousand times Smarter Than People what we imagined to be the limits now doesn't matter too much in terms of environmental concerns that could all potential, but Superior to what we have currently they'll be able to find solutions to virtually a single problem tokushima ocean fish depopulation all that stuff about Arrangements of molecules also

► 00:59:24

on the everyday life basis like until we have the super a eyes I don't like the garbage washing up on the beach near my house either right so I'm in but everyday basis of course you want to promote health and our bodies and then our and in our environments right now as long as there's you no measurable uncertainty regarding when the benevolent super a eyes what will it will it will come about so I think the main question isn't whether once you have been officially disposed super AI it could solve all our current petty little problems the question is no can we Wade through you know the mark of modern human society and psychology to create this beneficial super AI in the first place I got I believe I know how to create a beneficial super II but it's a lot of a lot of work to get there and of course there's many teams around the world working on vaguely similar

► 01:00:24

projects now and it's obvious what kind of super AI we're actually going to get once we get there it's all just guesses at this point right shoulder less educated guess it's almost like we're in a race of the Primitive primate biology versus the potentially of beneficial and benevolent artificial intelligence that this the best aspects of his primate can create that it's almost erased to get who's going to win is that the warmongers and the other greedy whores that are smashing the world under its boots or is it the scientist that are going to figure out some super intelligent way to solve all of our problems

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modes of social organization than individual people I mean intelligence there were really nice human beings who believe they were doing the best for the world even if some of the things that were doing like I I thought we were very much not for the best of the world I'm in military mode of organization or large corporations as a mode of organization are in my view not generally going to lead to two beneficial outcomes for the overall species and onions for the global brain the scientific Community they open source Community I think you know that the better aspects of the blockchain and cryptocurrency unity have a better motive organization so I think if if this sort of open decentralized mode of Oregon

► 01:02:12

Jason Chan Marshall more resources as opposed to this centralized authoritarian mode of organization then I think things are going to come out for the better it's not so much about bad people versus good people that you can look at it like the corporate mode of organization is almost of virus that that's colonized a bunch of to working according to this to this mode and even if they're really good people and the individual task they're working on isn't that in itself there working within this this mode that's leading their work to be used for ultimately is none good and yeah that is a fascinating thing about corporations isn't it that the diffusion of responsibility and being a part of a gigantic group that you as an individual don't feel necessarily connected are responsible to the ultimate the CEO isn't fully responsible if the CEO does something that isn't in accordance with the

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does the organization they're just replaced right so I mean there's no one person who's in charge it's really like to have let these organisms

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become parasites on on Humanity in this way in some ways the Asian countries are a little more intelligent than Western countries in the Asian governments realize the power of Corporations to mold society and there's a bit more feedback between the government and and and corporations which can be For Better or For Worse in the in America there's some ethos of like free markets in free enterprise which is really not taking into account the oligopolistic nature of of of of modern markets in the Asian countries isn't it that the government is actually suppressing information as well they're also suppressing Google in South. I'm in South Korea if you look at my only ones will Singapore

► 01:04:27

Singapore gives you the death penalty for marijuana to do which is roughly the same level of personal freedoms as the US has more in some ways less than others massive electronic interesting their thing they're politically is 2/3 of sub-Saharan Africa in the late sixties and it is through the government intentionally stimulating corporate development turn 90 factoring and electronics that that that they grow up so that that. I'm in I'm not holding that up as a great Paragon for the future or not or anything but it it's it does show that those there's many Modes of organization of people and resources other than the ones that we take for granted in the US I don't think Samsung and LG or the ideal for the future either though I'm in I'm much more interested you know

► 01:05:27

yourson blockchain open source Springdale so disruptive is the way to be ongoing disruptive an open-source is a good example of that like when the open-source movement started do they weren't thinking about machine learning but you know that the fact that open source is out there and there's been prevalent in the software world that paved the way for a all right and I'll be centered on open-source algorithm so right now even though big companies and governments dominate the scalable roll out of AI the invention of new AI algorithms is mostly done by people creating new code and putting it putting it on on get however Get Loud brother open source for positive ra top repositories

► 01:06:27

can understand what is it means that varies coders get to share in this this code and the source code and they they get to innovate and then they all get to participate in use each other's work right now but blockchain is confusing for a lot of people explain that sure I'm in itself is it is almost a misnomer so we're confusing confusing at every level right so we can should start with that idea of a distributed Ledger which is basically like a distributed Excel spreadsheet database is the store of information which is not stored iskcon one place but his copies of it in a lot of different places every time I copy of it is updated everyone else's copy of it as as has got to be updated and then there's various bells and whistles like Chardon where you know it can be broken in many pieces and each piece is stored many places or something so that's distributed

► 01:07:27

shooting know what what makes it more interesting is when you'll are decentralized control on to that so imagine you have this distributed Excel spreadsheet this copies of it stored in a thousand places but to update it you need like five hundred of those thousand people who own the copies to vote yeah let's do that update so then then you have a distributed store and you like a democratic voting mechanism to determine when I can get updated together right there is a date a date mechanism that's controlled in a democratic way by the group of participants surrounded by anyone Central controller and that that can of all sorts of advantages I mean for one thing it means it you know there's no one controller who can go Rogue and screw it off a day without telling anyone it also means there's no one who some lunatic can go hold a gun to their head and shoot them

► 01:08:27

I know it's controlled democratically bye-bye everybody brought you that was ramifications in terms of you know legal defense ability and I mean you could have some people in Iran some in China some of the US and and updates to this whole distributed datastore are made by Democratic decision of all the participants have to say yeah this is been good so voting for this update to be accepted or not it's just ID number 135-7264 and then encryption is used to make sure that you know it's it's the same guy voting every time that that that it claims to be with it without needing like it your passport number or something I was conceived actually vote in this country sure that that's that that's right so that there is

► 01:09:27

I mean that's the core mechanism know where the blockchain comes from is like a data structure where to store the data in this distributed database it's to block 32 block contains data the thing is not every so-called blockchain system even uses a chain of locks and I like some uses a tree or a graph of blocks or something so they can reserve a better turn that sits in all right turns a I just want those turns where it's one of those terms with start with even though it's not quite technically not quite technically accurate I mean anymore cuz I don't know another buzzword for what it is it's a distributed Ledger with encryption a decentralized control. Changes the buzzword that's come about 4 that what got me interested in blockchain Roadie is this decentralized control aspects of my wife while then wait for 10 years now

► 01:10:27

she dug up recently something I'd forgotten which is a web page and made in 1995 where I'd said I'm going to run for president on the decentralisation platform without completely forgotten that that's crazy i d i I was very young then I had no idea what an annoying child being president would be centralized control seem very important to me back down which is well before Bitcoin was invented cuz I could see you know a global brain is evolving on the planet involving humans computer is communication devices and we don't want this Global Varian to be controlled by it by a small Elite we want the global printing to be controlled in the in the decentralized way so so that the beauty of this blockchain infrastructure what got me interested in the Practical technology is really one aetherium came out and you had the notion of us

► 01:11:27

dark contract with the First blockchain Technology was Bitcoin which is a well-known cryptocurrency ethereum is another cryptocurrency which is the number to cryptocurrency right now that's how did you know about it he did however it came along with a really nice suffer from work so it's not just like a digital money like Bitcoin is but if Syrian has a programming language called solidity that came with it and this programming language are called smart contracts and again that sort of a misnomer cuz it's smart contract doesn't have to be either smart or a contract with but it was a cool name if it's really smart contract transaction

► 01:12:27

or you can program a financial transaction so a smart contract it's a it's a persistent piece of software that embodies like a secure encrypted transaction between between multiple parties so pretty much like anything on the on the back end of A bank's website or transaction between two companies online a purchasing relationship between you and the website online this could all be scripted in in the smart contract it in the secure way and then we would be automated simple and standard division that vitalik buterin who was the main Creator behind it is to basically make the internet into a giant Computing mechanism rather than mostly like an information storage and retrieval mechanism make the internet into a giant computer but making a really simple programming language for scripting transactions

► 01:13:27

the internet where you have encryption and you have Democratic decision-making and distribute information into this this world computer that was a really cool idea and the aetherium blockchain and solidity programming language made it really easy to do that made it really easy to program like distributed secure systems on on the internet so I saw this I thought wild like now we finally have

► 01:13:57

the tool set that's needed to implement some of the Steelers this is very popular I mean I mean basically almost every Ico that was on the last couple years was done on the ethereum blockchain what's an Ico initial coin offering for Bitcoins for right so what happened in the last couple years is a bunch of people realize you could use this etherium programming framework to create a new crypto-currency like a new artificial money and then you can try to get people to use your new artificial money for certain types of coins in the Stars yeah but I mean how to how most popular is Bitcoin play some toast and there's a bunch of

► 01:14:57

comparison like how much bigger is Bitcoin and ethereum

► 01:15:02

I don't know if I factory doctors 32562 now it's actually almost took over Bitcoin crashing his back down it might be half or a third of the value of creating artificial money's is one tiny bit of the potential of what you can do with the whole block chain tool set it it happened to become popular initially right because it's where the money is it is it is and that's interesting to people but on the other hand what it's really about making World computer it's about scripting with a simple programming language all sorts of transactions between people companies whatever all sorts of exchange is over

► 01:16:02

of information so I mean it's about decentralized voting mechanisms it's about a eyes being able to send data and processing for each other each other for a minute there's it's about automating Supply chains and then then shipping and e-commerce if there's an A in it in essence you know just like computers and the internet started with a certain small set of applications and then provided almost everything right is is going to provide almost everything cuz there's almost no domains of human Pursuit that couldn't use like security through cryptography some sort of you know participatory decision-making and then distributed storage of information and these things are also valuable for

► 01:17:01

if you're making a very very powerful AI that is going to you know gradually through the Practical value delivers he will grow up to be more more more intelligent I mean to say I should be able to engage a large party of people and they eyes and participatory decision-making they I should be able to store information and I certainly shouldn't be able to use you know security and encryption did all that you were the parties in an involvement operation and I'm in these are the key things behind behind blockchain technology so I'm in the fact the factor blockchain begin with artificial currencies to me is a detail of History just like the fact the fact that the internet begin is like a nuclear early warning system write them in it did it's good for that but it's as it happens it's also even better for a lot of other things the solution for the financial situation we find ourselves in one of them

► 01:18:01

things about cryptocurrencies that someone said okay look obviously we all kind of agree that our financial institutions of our flawed the system that we operate under as it's very fucked-up so how do we fix that well send in the super nerds and so they figure out a new number going to send us a super super super who's the guy that they think the fake person to maybe not real that came up with Bitcoin neither confirm nor deny that I will talk later this is it's very up

► 01:18:47

it's very interesting but it's also very promising I I've liked High optimism for cryptocurrency because I think that kids today are looking at it with much more open eyes then you know grandfather's live grandfather's looking at Bitcoin I got a big rat out of her but you're exceptional one but there's a lot of people that are older that just do not open to accepting these ideas but I think kids today and in particular the ones that have grown up with the internet has a constant force their life there I think they're more likely to embrace something along those lines there's no doubt that you know cryptographic formulations of money are going to become the standard the quest you think that's going to be the standard it could happen

► 01:19:41

potentially in the very uninteresting way House of it but you could just have the E dollar I'm in the government could just say we will we must dollars or just electronic anyway so what what what habitually happens is Technologies other invented to subvert The Establishment are converted to perform where they help bolster The Establishment instead I'm in financial services this happens very rapidly like PayPal on this guy started thinking they were going to obsolete fiat currency and making an alternative to the currencies run instead they were driven to make it a credit card processing front end so that's one thing that could happen with cryptocurrency is it just becomes a mechanism for you know governments in big companies and Banks to do the things

► 01:20:41

more efficiently so what what's interesting isn't so much the digital money aspect or though it is in some ways a great way to do digital money but with what's interesting is with all the flexibility it gives you 2 script you know complex Computing networks in there is a possibility to describe new forms of you know participatory Democratic self-organizing networks so blockchain like the internet or Computing is very flexible medium you could use it to make tools of Oppression or you or you can use it to make tools of amazing growth growth and and Liberation and obviously we know which one I'm more interested in what is blockchain what is blockchain being currently used for like what would different applications cuz it's not just cryptocurrency these are a bunch of different things not right

► 01:21:39

it's very early stage so probably the how early

► 01:21:44

what's the heaviest uses of blockchain now are probably inside large financial services companies actually if you look at it if the project is cerium is run by an open-source an open to Foundation if they're in Foundation then there's a consulting company called consensus which is a totally separate organization it was founded by Joe Lubin who was one of the founders of aetherium in the early days and consensus says it's funded a bunch of the work within the ethereum foundation and Community but consensus is done a lot of contracts just working with government and big companies to customize code based on the theory of to help with her internal operations so actually a lot of the Practical value has been with stuff it isn't in the public eye that much but it's like back in the inside of companies in terms of practical

► 01:22:44

facing uses of of cryptocurrency the Tron blockchain which is different than ethereum that has a bunch of games on it and some online gambling for the for that matter so that that said that that's gotten a lot of users but they online games like hot how do they use that lets a payment mechanism but this is one of the things that's a lot of hand-wringing about in the cryptocurrency world now is gambling no just the fact that there aren't that many big consumer-facing uses her of of of cryptocurrency I mean I mean never ever would like that was the idea of this is one of the things with our Singularity by putting

► 01:23:33

AI on the blockchain in the highly effective way and then we're also we have these two tears so we have the singularity net Foundation which is is creating this open source decentralized platform in which a eyes can talk to other a eyes and then we're spinning off a company called The Singularity Studio which will use this decentralized platform to help big companies in a great AI into their operations so would the singularity Studio company we want to get all these big companies using the AI tools in the singular unit platform and then we want to drive you know mass of usage of of in the singularity that way so that's if we're successful with what we're doing this will be you know within a year from now or something by far the biggest usage of blockchain out outside

► 01:24:33

the financial exchange is our use of lock came within singularitynet for a I basically customers to get the AI services that they need for their businesses and then for eyes to transact with other AI is paying other a eyes for doing services for them cuz this this this I think is is a path forward it's like a society and economy of mine just like one monolithic it's a whole bunch of different people all over the world with not only are in the marketplace providing services to customers but you asking questions of each other and then rating each other of how good they are sending data to each other and putting each other for the services so this dislike network of a eyes intelligence Network level as well as they're being intelligent City in each each component is it all depended upon Nations this is a World War I think that's going to be

► 01:25:33

once once it starts to get a very high level of intelligence is in the early stages okay what would it hurt like if if I had you know my own database to Central record of everything like I'm I'm an honest person and not going to rip anyone off

► 01:25:50

but once we start to make a transition

► 01:25:54

turn artificial general intelligence in This Global decentralized Network which has component a eyes from every country on the planet like at that point once it's clear you're getting a lot of people want to step in and control this thing you know by law by military might by any means necessary by underpinning everything like this gives into an amazing resilience to what you don't like it you can shut down Global you know upsurge of of creativity and a mutual benefit from people all over the planet with no powerful party can can shut down even if they're afraid that threatens our hegemony it's very interesting because in a lot of ways that's a it's a very elegant solution to what's an obvious problem

► 01:26:54

what's in hindsight an obvious problem it says distribution of India would be terrified of this shitt I don't like where this is what's going to that contains which person running the USA have a different relationship and if you're a person like I know the prime minister of Ethiopia I'll be on the road as a degree in software engineering it but of course Ethiopia is in any danger of of individually like taking Global hegemony right side for the majority of countries in the world they like this for the same reason they like Linux I mean I mean this this is something which they have an equal role to anybody else right that the superpowers and you say this in Japanese

► 01:27:54

they like the idea of this decentralized AI because I mean if you're not Amazon Google Microsoft tencent Facebook so on if you're another large corporation you don't necessarily want all your AI and all your data to be going into one of this handful of large AI companies you would rather have it be in the in the secure decent decentralize platforming I'm in this is the same reason to you know Cisco and IBM they run on Linux they don't run on Microsoft right so if if you're not one of the handful of large governments are large corporations that happen to be in a leading role in the ecosystem then you would rather have this this equalizing in decentralised thing because everyone gets to play

► 01:28:43

yeah what would be the benefit of running on Linux versus Microsoft test of some other big company right I mean imagine imagine if if you were Cisco or GM or something and all of your internal machines are all your service running in Microsoft Windows Microsoft increases their price of remove some features that you totally it at that their behest and with the same thing is true I mean if you put all your data in some big companies server and you're analyzing all your data on their algorithms and that's critical to your business model what if they change their algorithm in some way then I'm in your business is is basically controlled by this other company so I've been having a decentralized platform in which year

► 01:29:39

you know any cool participant along with everybody else is it is actually much better position to be in then I think this this I think is why we can proceed with this plan of having this see no decentralised singularitynet platform then this singularly Studio enterprise software company which mediates between the decentralized government and big companies that mean it's because most companies and governments in the world they don't want hegemony of a few large governments and corporations easy either and you can see this in a lot of ways you can see this in Embrace of of Linux and end it. My many large corporations you can also see like it in a different way

► 01:30:27

you know that the Indian government you know if they reject an offer by Facebook to give free internet to all Indians because Facebook wanted to give like mobile phones would give free internet but only to access Facebook India's no thanks giving the note trading laws that any internet company that collects data about Indian people has to store that data in India which is so the Indian government can subpoena when they want to write so so you've already seen a bunch of resistance against hegemony by a few large governments are large large corporations by other companies and other governments and I think this this is very positive and it's one of the factors that they can foster the faster than the growth of a decentralized AI ecosystem is it fair to say that the future of AI is

► 01:31:26

severely dependent upon who launches at first

► 01:31:30

like whoever if weather is singularity not the boy that is artificial general intelligence as a scientist I have to say we don't know that a g I will just self-organized into almost independent over an initial condition but we don't know any given that we don't know I'm operating under the you know that you're ristic assumption that if the first AI is done officially oriented if it's controlled in the participatory Democratic way and if it's oriented at least substantially toward like doing good things for humans I'm operating Under The Aristocats sumption that this is going to buy ice things in the positive positive direction and in the absence of knowledge to the country but if the Chinese government launched is one they're controlling

► 01:32:30

yeah we don't know pop it off first time at the south I mean understand the Chinese government also they want they want the best for the Chinese people that they don't they don't they don't want to make the Terminator either right so I thought mean I think even even Donald Trump is not my favorite person does not actually want to kill off everyone on the planet he might have to talk shit about him yeah yeah yeah yeah

► 01:33:05

you know I wouldn't say we're necessarily doomed if the government's in big companies are the ones that that develop AI companies essentially developed the internet right and they got away from them that's right that's right so there's a lot of uncertainty all around but I think you know it behooves us to do what we can to buy us the odds in our favor basilar understand and I'm in toward that end with developing you know open source decentralized explains singularitynet what what you guys are actually involved in so singular and itself is a platform that allows many different a eyes to operate on it and these allies can offer services to anyone who requests Services of the network

► 01:34:03

and they can also request an offer services among each other so it's it's both just an online Marketplace for as much like you know the Apple App Store or Google Play Store but for S7 phone apps but the difference is the different size in here can Outsource work to each other and talk to each other and that gives a new dimension to right where you can have we think of as a society or economy of mines and it gives the possibility that this whole society of interacting aai's which are then they're paying each other for transactions without digital money are art cryptographic token which is called the AGI so how good they are sending data and questions and answers to each other consult organized into some overall AI mind know we're building this platform and then we're plugging into it

► 01:35:03

seated a bunch of a oz of our own creation so I've been working for 10 years on this open source AI project open, which is oriented toward building general intelligence and we're putting a bunch of AI agents based on the opencog platform into this Singularity net Network and you know if we're successful in a couple years the ai's that we put on there will be a tiny minority of what's in there just like the apps made by Google or a small minority of the apps and in the in the Google Play Store right but my hope is that these opencog agents

► 01:35:42

within the larger pool at a iPhone The Singularity net conservative service the the general intelligence Corps cuz they open cargo agents are really good at abstraction and generalization in creativity we can put another good at highly specific forms of learning like predicting Financial time series curing diseases answering people's questions organizing your ear in box because of the interaction of these specialized a eyes and then more general-purpose you know abstraction creativity together in this decentralised platform and then you know the beauty of it is like some some 15 year old genius and odds are by John or the Congo can put some brilliant into this network if it's really smart it will get rated highly by the other a eyes for for for its work helping them do their thing then I can get replica

► 01:36:42

servers suddenly a this sixteen-year-old kid from Azerbaijan of the Congo could become wealthy from from their copies of their AI providing services to other people they are indeed you know the creativity in their mind is out there and is infusing is Global Network with some some new intellectual DNA that you never would have been found by a ten-cent or Google cuz they're not going to hire some Congolese teenager who may have a brilliant idea.

► 01:37:18

so this is all I'm going right now and the singularity that you guys are using the way I've understood that correct me if I'm wrong is that it's going to be the one innovation of one invention that essentially changes everything forever which is correct it's going down my friend Vernor vinge e who's another guy you should interview Diego to San Diego university actually but well in science fiction writer his book of fire upon the Deep one of the great science fiction books that are GE and fire upon the Deep

► 01:38:18

back in the 1980s but he he opted not to become up a pundit about it cuz he'd rather write more science fiction. That's interesting in a science fiction author also a good friend of mine I mean Ray took that turn and flushed it out and did a bunch of trying to pinpoint like the basic concept of the technological singularity is a point in time when technological Advance occurs so rapidly that to the human mind it appears almost instantaneous so I can imagine 10 new Nobel prize-winning discoveries every seconds or something so this is similar to the concept of the intelligence explosion that was posited by the mathematician i j good in 1965 what i j good said then the year before I was born was the first truly intelligent machine will be the last invention that you might he needs to make

► 01:39:18

intelligence explosion is another term for bass with the same thing as a technological singularity but it's not just about driving and I'm in this AI there's no technology Elementary coding which is like reading the mind of your brain and putting putting into into a machine you have their Advanced Energy Technologies so that all these different things are expected in to advance at around the same time of that many ways to boost each other right cuz the other better AI you have your way I can then invent if you invent amazing you know Tekken Quantum Computing that can make your AI Smarter on the other hand if you if you could crack how the human brain works and genetic engineering to upgrade

► 01:40:18

no technology right to go there's so many virtuous Cycles among these different Technologies the more you advance in any of them the more you going to advance in in in all of them and it's the coming together of all of these it's going to create you know radical abundance and the technological singularity so that that vingi introduced Ray Kurzweil borrowed for his books and for the The Singularity University educational program and then we borrowed that for our singularitynet like decentralized blockchain based AI platform and RNR Singularity Studio Enterprise software company what you just said one being the possibility that one day we can upload our mind or make copies of our mind my mom's going to let you just call me

► 01:41:18

but the do you think that's a real possibility is inside of our lifetime that we can map out the human mind to the point where we can essentially recreate it but if you do recreate it without all the biological words in the humour award systems that are built in the what the fuck are we made with that question what is your mind

► 01:41:40

well I think that those two things that are needed for let's say let's say human body is a better Computing infrastructure than we have now okay to host the uploaded body and and the other thing is a better scanning technology because we don't have a way to scan the molecular structure of your body without like freezing you slicing you and Scott both those are solved I'm you can then recreate and some computer simulation

► 01:42:22

you know an accurate simulacrum out of of of of what you are right I looked at it that's where I'm getting this what I'm getting at the end accurate simulacrum is that's getting weird because the biological variability of human beings very day today we very dependent upon a

► 01:42:44

cuz when we vary depending upon how much sleep we get whether or not with feeling sick while they were lonely is always an accurate copy of gas then the simulation hosting your upload would need to have an accurate simulation of the laws of buy a physics and chemistry that allow your body to you know if all from one second to the next episode with change second-by-second just like just like you do and it would have gone in a different direction. Be a monk some super god monk living on the top of a mountain somewhere in a year if you keep skip the problem with the world will be a virtual world not talking about the potential of downloading this again in sort of a into a biologic as a lot of possibilities

► 01:43:44

the world and then just create your own fantasy universe or you or you could 3D print and Alternate synthetic body to manipulate molecules will the scope of possibilities if it becomes much greater than they were used to thinking flaws do we replicate sure of course in the digital form but then it's very programmable so there are levels and then you have a whole different set of issues yeah cuz once you've changed I mean suppose you make a fork of yourself and then you manipulate it in a certain way and then after a few hours you like

► 01:44:42

I don't I don't much like this new Joe here maybe we should draw back that change but the new Joe is like well I like myself very well thank you for there's a lot of issues that will come up once we can write modify and then they reprogram ourselves these decisions are almost insurmountable like once once the ball gets rolling vacations are the ramifications of these decisions are going to be very interesting to explore have been super positive your optimism any bad future like World Travel hundreds of years ago most people didn't travel more than a very short distance from their home and you could say well okay what if what if people could travel all over the world

► 01:45:42

like what horrible things could happen they would lose their culture like they might go marry someone from from a random tribe you can get killed and in the Arctic region or something lot of bad things can happen when you travel a lot of good things can happen and they ultimately the ramifications were not foreseen but he will 500 years ago we're going into a lot of new domains we can't see the details of the pluses and minuses that that that they're going to unfold it would behoove us to Simply become comfortable with radical uncertainty cuz otherwise we're going to confront him we're just going to be nervous so it's just inevitable this it is of course and then we're resetting to Ground Zero

► 01:46:35

yeah I'm in so barring a catastrophic outcome I believe a technological singularity is essentially inevitable there's a radical uncertainty attached to this on the other hand you don't need as much as we humans can do anything it would seem commonsensical e there's the ability to buy us this in a positive rather than the negative direction we should be spending more of our attention on doing that rather than for instance advertising spying and making chocolate your chocolates and all the other thing that happened it's everywhere at the helm of that is opposed to how many people are working on various aspects of Technology all across the planet it's a small group in comparison to explicitly bring about the singularity is a small group on the other hand supporting Technologies

► 01:47:35

is a very large group so think about like gpus where did they come from accelerating gaming right now in the whole they're amazingly useful for training their own that models which is one of many important types of AI writes a large amount of the planet's resources are now getting spent on technologies that are in directly supporting these singularitarian technology saw it as another example like micro a rare is it let you measure the expression level of jeans how much each gene is doing in your body each point in time these were originally developed you know as an outgrowth of printing technology then says squirting ink affymetrix figured out you could squirt DNA right so I'm in the amount of Technology specifically oriented Shore The Singularity doesn't have to be large because the overall you know spectrum of supporting Technologies can be subverted in that direction

► 01:48:34

you do you have any concerns at all about a virtual world I mean that we may be anyone right now but more attractive people would say that that's part of the reason why I attractive people so interested in everything that you are beautiful I was like well I guess but in terms of like yeah I guess it's subjective right really as we're talking about beauty in people sit and think about the pointlessness of our own existence like we are these finite beings that are clinging to a balls it spins a thousand miles an hour hurling through Infiniti of West Point it is a lot

► 01:49:34

it goes around already we've we create an artificial environment that we can literally somehow another download a version of us and exists in this

► 01:49:47

blockchain created or powered weird sucking the simulation world what would be mean what would be the point of what I really believe which is a bit personal may be different than any of my colleagues I'm what I really believe is that these advancing Technologies are going to lead us to unlock many different states of Consciousness and experience and then

► 01:50:23

most people are are are currently aware of what I mean we're just insignificant species on the on a you know a speck of rock hurling to ask about what the purpose, I don't understand almost nothing about who and what we are and our knowledge about the universe's far smaller than a Buddhist of phenomenological way like there's sense perceptions and then out of those sense perceptions models arise and accumulate including a model of the self and the model of the body and the model of the physical world out there and by the time you get to planets and stars and blockchain

► 01:51:23

medical models and then you know where we're by building intelligent machines and mind uploading machines and virtual realities we're going to radically transformed you know our whole state of consciousness our understanding of what mind and matter are our experience of our own selves or even weather itself exists and I think ultimately the state of consciousness of a human being like a hundred years from now after a technological singularity is going to bury very little resemblance to the states of Consciousness we have now we're just going to we're going to see a much wider Universe than any of us know

► 01:52:12

imagine imagine to exist now this is my own personal view of things that you don't have to agree with that to think the technological singularity will be valuable that is how I look at Ray Kurzweil and I agree there's going to be a technological singularity within decades at most and Ray and I agree that you know if we buy as technology development appropriately we can very likely you know guide this to be a world of abundance and benefit for humans as well as a eyes but Ray is a bit more of a down-to-earth empiricist then then I am lucky he thinks we understand more about the universe right now then then I do so I mean there's a wide spectrum reviews that are rational and sensible to have my own view is

► 01:53:06

we understand really really little and what we are and what what this world is and this is part of my own personal quest for wanting to upgrade my brain and wanting to create artificial intelligence is this like I've always been driven above all else going to understand everything I can about the world coming I've studied every kind of science and engineering and social science and read every kind of literature but in the end the scope of human understanding is clearly very small world at least we're smart enough to understand how little you understand what that made my dog doesn't understand how come he understands write an even like my ten-month-old son he understands how little he understands which is interested so I mean everything we think and believe now is going to seem absolutely absurd to us after there's a singularity we're just going to look back and laugh and then

► 01:54:06

Harvard way as all the incredibly silly things we were thinking and doing that when we were trapped in our in our you know what are primitive biological brains and bodies a stunning that that in your opinion are your assessment is somewhere less than a hundred years away from now requires exponential thinking because if that's hard to wrap your head around I know it's something to be here for me to wrap my head around that that's a little bit of a roadblock because they didn't know not today or not technologist I mean

► 01:54:47

if you get people to pay attention and sort of lead them through all this supporting evidence most people can comprehend these ideas reasonably well at your back to computer some 1960s hard to credit our mobile phones and made a big difference I got I spend a lot of time in Ethiopia development off at send you know the fact that mobile phones and then smartphones have rolled out so quickly even enroll Africa and if it's such a transformative impact I'm in this is a metaphor that lets people understand the speed with which exponential change can happen when you talk about yourself and you talk about Consciousness and how you interface with the world how do you see this I mean when you when you say that we might be living in a simulation do you actually entertain that you do the word simulation

► 01:55:43

it's probably wrong but yet the idea of a empirical you know materialist physical world is almost certainly wrong also so I'm in a cell

► 01:55:56

well I get in there for you go back to a phenomenal view I mean

► 01:56:03

you can look at the mind this primary and you know your mind is building the world as a model as a simple explanation of it of its perceptions on the other hand then what is the mind the self is also a model to get that gets built out of out of its perceptions but if I accept your mind has some fundamental existence also based on a sort of IU feeling that you're like a mind our minds are working together to build each other and to build this world and then there's a there's a there's a whole different way of thinking about reality in terms of first and second person experience rather than these

► 01:56:47

empiricist views like this is a computer simulation there's something but you still agree that this is a physical reality that we existed or do you not like there's something called the relational interpretation of quantum mechanics which says that there's no sense in thinking about an observed entity you should only think about an observe, observe her pair like there's no sense to think about something except from the perspective of some Observer so that's that's even true within our best current theory of modern physics as induced from empirical empirical observations take a plane fly to China

► 01:57:41

I guess you'd guess I meant to live there I live in Hong Kong in China

► 01:57:50

I have an unusual State of Consciousness if you think about it you know that you're not a brain floating in the vet somewhere which is being fed Illusions by certain evil scientist and 2 seconds from now he's going to get you don't know that you're right but experiences of falling in love with a woman and moving to another part of the world is consistent.

► 01:58:26

the be possibly a loose rein and implanted memories are very consistent I guess I guess my own State of Mind is I'm always sort of acutely aware that this simulation might all disappear at at that done at any one moment I'm so not really why is that that doesn't seem to make sense to me it's it's pretty it's pretty Rock Solid to everyday

► 01:58:56

I mean so you're possibly implanted memories lead you to believe my possibly incredibly can sit this is UE booms problem of induction ride from philosophy class in the end it's not and it doesn't specify the human body at right this is something you carry with you all the time on the other hand I'm in I'm still carrying out many actions with long-term planning and working on designing a 30 years might be designing it inside a building

► 01:59:47

the same AI system you know since we started opencog in 2008 but that's using codes from 2001 that I was buzzing with my colleagues even even earlier so I mean I think

► 02:00:01

long-term planning is very natural to me but but nevertheless I don't I don't want to make any assumptions about about what sort of what sort of simulation or reality that that that were living and I think everyone's going to hit a lot of surprises one wants to see me a singularity after the singularity so if it traveled back through time to implant into my brain the idea of how to create those bring it into existence something in the future described as to this a tractor post post Singularity intelligence is reaching back and putting into his brain the idea of how to bring about the singularity

► 02:01:00

Apex in 2012 what is

► 02:01:11

interactions with some McKenna fanatic 2012 exes was about

► 02:01:17

2007 or so this guy came to Washington where I was living then and he brought my friends Hugo de Garis another crazy ARS researcher with him and he's like the singularity is going to happen in 2012 Cummins turns McKenna said so I will need to be sure it's it's a good singular so you can't move to China then it will be a singularity so we have to get the US government to give billions of dollars to guarantee that the singularity in 2012 is a good Singularity so he he let us around to meet with these generals and and various High who hasn't in DC to get them to fund Hugo de Garis is my ADD research to guarantee I wouldn't move to China on Hugo wouldn't move to China so the US would create a positive Singularity you know the effort failed you go you go move to China then I move there

► 02:02:17

you're so then this this 2012 he went back to his apartment he made a a mix of 50% vodka 50% Robitussin p.m. Tuesday like drink it down he's like all right I'm going to have my own personal Singularity right here and I haven't talked to that guy since 2012 either to see what he thinks about her about the singularity not happening then but I mean text McKenna had a lot of interesting ideas but you know he he mixed up the the symbolic with the empirical more than I would I would prefer to do I mean it's it's very interesting to look at these abstract symbols and Cosmic insights but then you have to stir the put your scientific Mind Set On This Emma what's a metaphor and what's what's like an actual empirical scientific truth Within

► 02:03:17

within the scientific domain that I let him to the beach and I don't believe it was very well yeah you really think that the time-wave zero was a little bit of nonsense there's a mixture of deep insight there with a bunch of interesting metaphorical thinking differentiate like what makes sense what's what's this unbelievably powerful inside and what is just some crazy idea there's a difference

► 02:04:17

yeah I'm in granted Terence McKenna probably took more second out drugs and then I would generally recommend it's also he was speaking all the time and there's just something that I can attest you from podcasting all the time sometimes you just talkin I don't know what the fuck you're saying you know what you had become a prisoner to your words in a in a lot of ways to get locked up in this idea of expressing the thought that man that pay not be viable I'm not sure that he was after empirical truth in the same sense that say Ray Kurzweil is I cry when Ray is saying we're going to get you a love of a i in 2029 and then you know massively superhuman in a singularity in 2045 I mean Ray Ray is very literal like he's planning charts right now

► 02:05:13

Terrence was thinking of an impressionistic and and symbolic level it was a big difference to take that in a literal sense and it's very interesting to go back and forth between the you know the symbolic and poetic domain and the concrete science and engineering domain but it's also valuable to to be able to draw that draw that distinction right cuz you can draw a lot of insight for the kind of thinking Terence McKenna was doing and certainly if you explore psychedelics you can gain a lot of insights into how the mind and the universe but then went when you put on your science and engineering mindset you want to be rigorous about which incites do you take and which ones do you throw out an ultimately you want it you want to proceed on the basis of what works and what doesn't write as I'm in debt

► 02:06:13

this is pretty strong on the empirical directions are it also educated in the ways of psychedelics picture this year and it's a little hard cyst

► 02:06:42

before the recent generation of people going into AI because it was a way to make money the AI field was incredibly full of really really interesting people and Neo deep thinkers about about the mind and in the last few years of course AI has replaced like business school that's what your grandma wants you to do to have a good career so I mean you're getting people into a I just cuz it's financially viable I was not what your grandma wanted you to do so as to be able to to buy a nice house and throw the family right so you got into it cuz you really were curious about how the mind works end-of-course many people played with psychedelics because it also they were curious about you know what it was teaching about about how their mind works yeah I had a nice long conversation with me

► 02:07:42

pause while and we talked for about an hour and a half and Sci-Fi show that I was doing at the time and some of his ideas he has this is it this is number that they had their people throw about it's like 20 42 right is that is that still 745 is a 45-day talk Staters 42 which is the answer to the universe the 2022 thing was a New York conference that would take place in 2045 By Demetrios Skype whose sum off I-35 some protozoans advance in the accuracy of a brain scan

► 02:08:42

cutting a whole bunch of these curves that was the best guess that he came up with the Reese's like what where the where the pitfalls

► 02:08:57

well then I'm in the pitfall is always the one to eat that you don't see you right of course it's possible there's some

► 02:09:06

science or engineering obstacle that that were not for seeing right now I mean if it's it's also possible that all major nations are overtaken by like a religious Fanatics or something which which which slows down development someone few thousand years I think it would just be by a few decades or false I mean one possibility which I don't think is likely one possible it's possible one possibility is human-like intelligence requires Advanced quantum computers I can't be done on the standard classical digital computer do you think that's

► 02:09:50

because there's no evidence that human cognition relies on Quantum effects in the human brain like ice and everything we know about Neuroscience now it seems not to be the case I just no evidence but it's possible it's the case cuz we don't understand everything about how the brain works the thing is even if that's true like there's loads of amazing research going on in Quantum Computing I'm going to have you know you're probably have a QP you Quantum Processing Unit in your in your phone in like 10 to 20 years or something but I'm in so that would throw off the 2045 date but in a historical since it doesn't change the picture like I've got a bunch of research setting my hard drive on how we improve open cogs quantum computers right so that there's there could be other things like that which are technical Roblox that we're not seeing now but I really doubt those are going to delay things more

► 02:10:50

a decade or two or something on the other hand things could also go faster than then then Rays prediction which is which is what I'm pushing towards what do you think I would like to the human level general intelligence in 5 to 7 years from now

► 02:11:07

I don't think that's about it by any means impossible because I think our opencog design is adequate to do it but I mean it takes a lot of people working correctly for a while to build something something big in a physical form it'll be in the robots as I could control many different robot sexually and many other sensors and systems besides robot summon I think the human-like form factor like we have with Sophia and our other Hanson robots the human form factor is really valuable as a tool for allowing the cloud-based my mind to engage with humans and to learn human cultures and values the beginning of this chat you're the best way to get human values and culture into the AI is for humans and I are too many social emotional embodied situations together so

► 02:12:07

having a human-like embodiment for that is important for that I can look you in the eye and facial expressions I can bond with you you can see the way you react when you see like a sick person by the side of the road if something right and then you know can see you asked me to give the homeless person that has what money is it understands what that action mean summing interacting with an AI and human-like form is going to be valuable as a learning mechanism for four people to get more comfortable with with a eyes but ultimately

► 02:12:47

one advantage of being you know what digital mind if you don't have to be waited any particular and vitamin that I can go between different bodies and I can transfer between that's the real concern that the people that are that have this dystopian view of artificial intelligence have is that a I may already exists and just sitting there waiting to cancel a submitted in Indonesia in Asia everyone thinks I will be our friend that's been as their philosophies differ I guess I mean you look in Japanese anime I mean there's been there for a long time did you see this static and it's the same in China and Korea the general guess there isn't a robots will be people's friends will help people

► 02:13:47

come out of the general guess is it's going to be some big nasty are the nice and he's terrified of it Sam Harris terrified of it could really be a huge disaster for the human race know it's it's a cultural thing because the Oriental culture is sort of social good oriented most orientals think a lot in terms of what's good for the family of the society as opposed to themselves personally and so they just make the default assumption that they eyes are going to be the same way Americans are more like me me me or as I say that that's one way possible

► 02:14:47

you impose on this AI when we don't actually know what it's going to become right but there it is there are potential negative aspects score is artificial intelligence deciding that where the logical and unnecessary

► 02:15:04

when we are a logical an unnecessary yes but that doesn't mean to say I just need to spend Stardust robot robot Sophia looks exactly like the robot in ex machina so it was a good video how to get the good video or just search for Sophia Hanson robot on Google your Advanced is Sophia right now and how many different interactions of their been they've been through like 16 Sophia robots made so far we're moving toward scalable manufacturer over the next couple years so right now she's going around humanoid robot and talks in various places so Sophia used to be called Eva

► 02:15:59

are we having a robot like the current Sophia that was called Eva and then X mention that came out with the robot called Ava exactly like the robot that that my colleague David had sent it and I made I think it's Coincidence of course not they just copy of course the body they have is better in the AI is better in the bathroom then our our robot duendes Sophia which means wisdom instead of the name Ava then see if you know if a sociopath raises a robot with an abusive interaction and make him out to be a sociopath or psychopath so let's let's let's not do that let's raise our real boxwood Lovin that's the thing is this

► 02:16:54

o headphones I haven't seen this particular what is she saying

► 02:17:04

who's on Jimmy Fallon last week or something how much is it actually interacting with them

► 02:17:17

does a chat systems

► 02:17:25

yes Sophia we can run using many different II system today there's a chatbot which is sort of like you know Alexa or Google now or something but with a bit a bit better AI no emotion in face recognition human-level look you in the eye and Russian mode and they're so different different software packages and we also use her sometimes to experiment with their opencog system and singularitynet so we can we can use the robot as a research platform to exploring some of our more advanced tools and then there's a simpler appearances in the next year

► 02:18:25

I want to roll out more of our Advanced research software from open Coggin Singularity roll out more of that inside these robots with his mother Mountain many applications were looking at with our singular platform I want to get you back in here in like a year to find out where everything is cuz I feel like we need someone like you feel like I deserve let us know where where it's at when it's raining when the switch is about to flip it seems to me that it might happen so quickly and the change might take place so rapidly that we will have no idea what's happening before it happens

► 02:19:05

I'm in we think about the singularity like it's going to be some huge like physical event and suddenly everything turns purple in this covered with diamonds or something right but I'm in a lot of ways something like this can unfold so I can imagine it with our singularitynet decentralize AI Network you know we get an AI That's smarter than humans and can create a new scientific discovery of the Nobel Prize level every minute there's something that

► 02:19:37

that doesn't mean to say is going to immediately like

► 02:19:41

ra Factor all matter into into images of Buckethead do something random I mean I mean if a guy has some caring and wisdom and compassion then whatever changes happen but it's human characteristics that that's possible. That's pretty clear if you look at the world around you sure one of our project is aimed exactly at AI compassion number using the Sophia robot as a as a meditation assistant so we were using Sophia to help people get in too deep like meditative Trent States and and help them you know breathe deeply and achieve more more positive state of being in part of the go there is to help people part of the goal that says that

► 02:20:41

getting locked into a very positive reflective and compassionate State and I think I think there's a lot of things in the human psyche and evolutionary history that hold us back from being oftenly compassionate and that if we create the AI in the right way and we not only much more intelligent but much more compassionate than than human beings are and I'm in this we'd better do that otherwise the human races it's probably screwed to be blunt I mean if I think human beings are creating a lot of other Technologies not with all the power we're treating synthetic biology technology it's normally more intelligent but more why isn't compassionate than we are we're probably going to destroy ourselves by some method or another I mean what would do something like Donald Trump becoming president

► 02:21:40

you see what happens when this you know primitive no hindbrain and when are are unchecked in a mammalian emotions of anger and a new state is seeking an ego and rage and lost when these things are controlling these are highly Advanced Technologies this is this is not going to come to a good end so we want compassion general intelligences and this is what should we should be or anything ourselves to her then so we need to shift the focus of the AI and Technology development on the planet Torrid you know benevolent compassionate general intelligence and this is subtle right because you need to work with the establishment rather than over throwing it which is it going to be viable so this is why we're creating this decentralized self-organizing AI Network The Singularity net then we're creating a for-profit company Singularity Studio which will go

► 02:22:40

large Enterprises to use this decentralized network then we're creating these robots like Sophia which will be Mass manufacture in the next couple years roll these out of the service robots everywhere around the world to interact with people in that you're providing valuable services and homes and offices but also interacting with people you know in a loving and compassionate way so we we need to start now because we don't actually know if it's going to be years or decades before we get to this Singularity and we want to be as sure as we can do it when we get there it happens it in the in the beneficial way for everyone right and things like robots blockchain and AI learning algorithms are our tools for that and I appreciate your optimism I appreciate you explaining all this stuff for us and I appreciate all your work amazing fasting stop

► 02:23:40

come back next year and then do it on the state of the singularity by the time right now thank you everybody thank you everyone for the podcast and thank you to our sponsors thank you to SimpliSafe 24/7 round-the-clock fantastic home security for just 1499 a month with no contracts no markups no installation window and today you can save hundreds of dollars on that protection if you go to simplisafe.com Rogan that simplisafe.com Rogan make sure you enter that URL because that's all they know that we sent you hurry this holiday offer is ending soon SimpliSafe SimpliSafe. Com Rogan thank you also to two

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Josh absorb just a wonderful application not just because it's ingenious and Innovative and it gives you the cash card and something completely revolutionary cash of boost which allows you to save 10% at Chipotle Shake Shack Taco Bell and more as well as save a dollar off coffee at any coffee shop across the country

► 02:26:05

but it also is doing a solid tuna salad to you when you sign up for the cash app be downloaded for free enter the referral code Joe Rogan you're going to get $5 then $5 is also going to go to Justin Brands fight for the Forgotten charity helping build Wells for the pygmies in the Congo and at least until the end of the year when you download the cash app and enter Joe Rogan the cash app will also be sending $5 to help pay for Ray Borg son's medical bills it's an awesome win win a great company they have just they have an amazing heart Dave amazing did they have an amazing sentiment behind this company it's not just a company trying to make money they want to do good things with that money and I appreciate them greatly I'm very very honored to be working with them I'm so happy that they're helping Justin Brands charity and Ray Bourque son and I'm happy to give you five bucks to

► 02:26:59

so download cash app for free in the App Store the Google Play Market and make sure you enter the the referral code Joe Rogan all in one word to get all that good stuff okay folks that's it for today alright fun times we did it tomorrow is a doubleheader oh shit either Edwards is going to be here Eve Edwards is a MMA Legend he is a former Fighter for the UFC he fought he bought for bodog how about that one of the rare few he fought all over the world really and now he does commentary for the pfl which has a giant event coming up soon where I think they're giving away a million dollars for the top winner

► 02:27:48

might be like in each weight class I'll get all that information from him tomorrow and I think he's also involved in high rollers as well what is that that thing to do when they get high chilling that Instagram page the high rollers Instagram page because they're promoting marijuana use these fucking sons of bitches anyway that would be tomorrow at 11 a.m. Pacific time and then after that the mother fucker Vol motherfukers David Goggins will be here I've been listening to his book on tape its outstanding it's called you can't hurt me I got the book but what's interesting about the book on tape the audio book is it's not just the audio book is the audio book and then Dave sits down with the the the guy who wrote the book with and they discuss way more in-depth these events that took place in the book that seemed so crazy you here it's almost like they're doing an audiobook but they're doing a podcast in between the eyes

► 02:28:48

go back where they just talkin preformed about all these various events that happened to him it's really interesting I really enjoy it I did I absolutely recommend the book but I really recommend the audiobook is well that'll be tomorrow

► 02:29:02

looks like I'm going to get Deontay Wilder on Monday shit

► 02:29:08

can't wait to talk to him that's it friends and family we're done for today much love to you all bye-bye