#1246 - Pot Debate - Alex Berenson & Dr. Michael Hart

The Joe Rogan Experience #1246 - Pot Debate - Alex Berenson & Dr. Michael Hart

February 13, 2019

Alex Berenson is a former reporter for The New York Times and the author of several thriller novels and a book on corporate financial filings. His new book "Tell Your Children: The Truth About Marijuana, Mental Illness, and Violence" is available now via Amazon. Dr. Michael Hart is the founder and medical director of Readytogo clinic, a medical cannabis clinic in London, Ontario, Canada.

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okay today ladies and gentlemen we did something very interesting what we did today was we did a debate we did a debate based on a book that was written called tell your children and this book is written by Alex Berenson

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and it's very controversial book controversial that is a very controversial book about marijuana and to debate with him and I'll bring some interesting information in a different perspective I brought in doctor my cart he is a founder and medical director of cannabis focused Clinic he is a an actual cannabis Focus physician from Canada where it's legal up there and we had a great conversation and I think we really recovered both sides and I think we really played it about as Fair as you can and I think I think it's a very educational and Illuminating discussion so I hope you enjoy it so please welcome dr. Mike Hart and Alex Berenson

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The Joe Rogan Experience

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Denver live latest gentlemen or gentleman you two ladies gentlemen listening but YouTube unless you have some non-binary handle that you enjoy its it's a new world please please introduce yourself I'm Doctor my cart originally from St John's Newfoundland now I'm residing in London Ontario and I'm a family doctor and I've been practicing kindness medicine for just over 5 years and use her my name is Alex Berenson I used to be in New York Times Reporter then I became a spy novelist and most recently I wrote the book tell your children the truth about marijuana mental illness and violence which came out last month and has not endeared me to the Cannabis advocacy Community I'd say attacked you mercilessly for this book and it's okay I've also heard from a lot of parents parents who've told me that the book really encapsulates their their families problems

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next couple years I suspect my my real thoughts here before we even get started as at we're going to find that the truth is somewhere in the middle here I don't think marijuana is a hundred percent safe honestly for everybody I really don't I know too many people that have had experiences where they took too much particularly Edibles and I don't I want to say I know anybody who had psychotic breaks but I know some people that freaked out for weeks you know in fact we just had a comedian here from Brazil a couple days ago Rafi bastos who said he took a couple hits of a vape pen with high for 14 days went to a psychiatrist and and he's a big guy he's like 6 ft 5 6 6 you know when you know they told him to keep taking it cuz it you know who's like you you're so big just keep smoking and so he doesn't smoke she just kept hitting his vape and he said I was high for fucking two weeks

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you're probably right. He'll to the same standard as any other medicine so I need to identify that there's risks and there's benefits to it and some people are definitely you know going to be more susceptible to those risks we need to use out those people and make sure that those people you don't put themselves at risk for well-known marijuana Advocate but I I do believe I believe absolutely there are great benefits to it I think there's great benefits and terms of relieving pressure ocular pressure for people that have glaucoma people with AIDS were medication people with cancer they're going through chemotherapy find great benefit in terms of helping them and then is also some people with Autism I know people that have their children of autism in they give them small amounts of edible marijuana and stop seizures it's incredibly benefits in the form of CBD for a lot of different elements but I think with all that

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things and this is a stance that I've kind of like really come to accept over the last few years with all things that affect the mind they affect everyone slightly differently absolutely yeah I suspect your other people as it don't go on with Joe he's just going to let you know he's going to try to eat you alive and especially the way I told them the truth first of all I I'll go on with anybody and I'm glad you had me on heart you're having me on because you know Bill Maher he won't have me on he's afraid to talk to me about this why would he said well you know he told the or his people told the Simon & Schuster PR people we just don't want to have them on and an NPR had a National NPR show had an interview scheduled with me an hour line segments and they canceled it they said is it we don't believe in the conclusion to the book the book have me on and that's why I'm so happy

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that you're not afraid to have me on that we can have a conversation that we can have a conversation come at me with any questions you want about the science I'll stay right after I don't think marijuana is medicine it has a few medical uses that have been associated with chemotherapy that's nice but for the most part people use THC in cannabis as recreational intoxicants they using to get high the same way they use alcohol the same way they use other drugs and the sooner we we accept that reality the better off we'll all be that this is a drug and it has risks and benefits and the risks and benefits are different than alcohol they're different than other drugs but I don't think if you look serve on a population level basis there less than alcohol I don't think you can even say that I don't I really strongly disagree with that and I mean you just have to look at the death rate right you know more people die from alcohol

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you almost all drugs combined but when we're looking at cannabis there is zero deaths attributed to of the use of cannabis itself sure you could say you know someone could use cannabis and jump off a cliff or something like that but we're talking about the lethal dose you cannot die from Cannabis and just based upon that alone it makes it much much safer than alcohol makes you say that if that is the case Okay so that's a really good question the normal number that use for us deaths from alcohol about 90,000 now about 30 to 40,000 of those desk desk from the physical effects of alcohol rate essentially liver damage either chronic liver damage you get cirrhosis you die in some cases you can drink so much that you kill yourself in a night so that's about 30 to 40,000 desk the other deaths are generally associated with alcohol meaning somebody finds exactly car accident and all those numbers are base

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Glee based on studies from the 90s and before where you know people looked at traffic accidents and there were certain number of those actions were people had a blood alcohol content of higher than 0.1 alcohol Associated death that's a fine way to count as far as I'm concerned nobody has ever done that count for cannabis and I can tell you based on the on the tox screens that I've seen from Colorado where people have cannabis in their blood and committed suicide if you buy cannabis in there are text you take THC and their blood and and got it to the Fatal confrontation with police officers if if if and when we do this number for cannabis which we need to do as soon as possible the numbers could be a lot higher than zero I suspect it will be in the ten to twenty thousand we won't know till we actually do it even over the alcohol let's eliminate all things like violence and what's lemonade suicide let's assume those people would have committed violence and commit suicide without it you're still looking at a giant number of P

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who drink themselves to death 2000 send thousands and thousands of people every year vs zero with marijuana and you are aware I'm sure that correlation does not equal causation and that especially in a place like Colorado were you dealing with cannabis something that stays in the system for many many weeks if you're testing people and they test positive for marijuana and they wind up committing suicide or they wind up committing violence they don't even necessarily have to have been under the influence of it is you know there's when you test the blood you can test the book the active metabolite and the inactive metabolite see so so the test when you do a blood test on somebody who's Rihanna was committed suicide it's sophisticated enough to tease that out so there's a lot of people have the active metabolite in their blood alcohol cannabis is a neurotoxin for a lot of people but in addition to the desk there's also just the morbidity and that that's associated with alcohol I mean it ruins people's lives at ruins marriages

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what's the weight gain at least a lot of metabolic disturbances especially weight gain and some people smoke a lot of pot and they get lazy and they start eating Cheetos all day and you can also say that with some people you know the wake and bakers that you know seem to be wasting their lives away and that's like the stereotypical negative o- description of a marijuana user to wake and bake or a person is high all the time you get absolutely said that could really ruin relationships you can absolutely said that would ruin your job again to know we're using the term marijuana and really we should be using THC or high THC when we were saying that because you'll people who use a high-cbd everyday I was as we know where most people listen is part of the CBD is non-psychoactive does not get you high so you don't really beneficial for a variety of different disorders that people have yeah so we need to be careful using canvas versus using you

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I can do that point you know it but you know you say that you so you can cause the munchies and of course that's your not good for someone who doesn't want to gain weight and just you're so people know that the way that it does I'll do that is when she attached to the CB1 receptor get an increase in hormone called growling and growling can actually induce hunger and that's why people get get that the munchy's but you know that is not necessarily a bad thing if you're someone who has cancer sure if you're someone you know who's wasting away from from from a terrible illness know sometimes you're having a having the munchies is is definitely a good thing and I know you know a lot of people have said to me you know it's not available so you should probably not talk about as much but there is another cannabinoid call thcv so you know there's there's over a hundred cannabinoids in cannabis THC and CBD are only two of them those are the main ones that people know about so thcv has been shown to act

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reduce appetite so if we can get that out there in the market you don't like we have with with CBD then we can almost feel eliminate or potentially you don't substantially reduce the problems people have with with that with THC by using it with the cheek CV axle candidates for absolute sure you don't need to go to him to get in a population that is genuinely interested in the health benefits and I mean I'm glad that that that's legalized in Canada because it does make my job little bit easier because he act like basically everyone who's coming to me now I know that they want to use it medically because if they want to use a recreational I mean they just go to the store at right kind of a pain to get in to see me come in and have the discussion all that type of stuff so you're the people who see me now the other all using it medically

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to answer your question though Alex almost all my patients as soon as they come in they say I don't wanna get high I don't wanna get high like that's almost what everyone says so you know I think the word is out there that you'll CBD is non-psychoactive it doesn't get you high and I think that a lot of people are really interested in that compound and you know if if people didn't have it over the past few years you know it wouldn't be as popular as it is so you know I think that we do need to look at the scientific evidence but we do need to listen to others in the anecdotal evidence is you know something that that with that we should consider because it is so strong Alex let me ask you this why don't you consider it medicine when it has proven medical benefits approved it for but as you know I'm sure when people talk about it as medicine when the the the the the ballot initiatives that have gotten it approved as medicine have really essentially deceived

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voters about the process right so you go to a you go to a pot doctor you get an authorization that authorization essentially enables you to buy as much cannabis as you want for the next year most of the time and reality these doctors are not giving you a real medical examination they're saying to you hate you have pain do you have anxiety here's your authorization I don't think you should speak for every single doctor though we don't do that at my clinic and I know that Yolanda clinics in Canada anyway we definitely do not do that and provide a lot of education at my clinic in this other clinics in Canada also provided by education imagine there's a spectrum but in the US this was a second and I spoke to advocate for my Birkenstocks Rob kampia who you know who ran the marijuana policy project for a long time for the book and he and he acknowledged The Advocates knew that this was a backdoor route to legalization in the my doctor said I said I

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headaches said when you get headaches I said whenever I think about the fact of pots illegal so he wrote me a prescription substance should be legalized favorite decriminalization widgets are jumping ahead here but if it's going to be legal to be legal for recreational use I'd rather that we don't pretend that THC High cannabis is a medicine I'd rather separate them. C in regards to Children's autism is pretty significant and well-documented the epilepsy autism those are two huge things that happened with children that they've been shown to severely mitigate with with edible marijuana so I have to push back on your little bit CBD has been shown to reduce seizures in in children with epilepsy

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who has a child who he uses it on and he's so it's an evening it's been a game-changer for 5 years ago and she was 20 years old she couldn't drive a car because she had seizures right so you can imagine being 20 years old not being able to drive a car all your friends are driving around so she uses a little bit of CBD not even every day she's never had a seizure Saints and now she be able to drive her car and a case okay and and I'm not saying that your friend situation didn't happen I'm not saying it's not real what I'm saying is that the reason we have clinical trials is because

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science the way you know whether medicine works or not whether a chemical compound works whatever that compound is the best way to know is you give it to two groups of you give you give the real medicine to one group of people and you give a placebo to the other group and you see the changes in those two groups over time and you find out whether or not your theory about whether this works on a population level basis is real or not that's helped that is at the core of Medical Science and we basically thrown that rule out for THC well that's not entirely correct you do know that there is were studies that were run during the Nixon Administration that show the efficacy of marijuana in the safety of it in those were all squashed and you also I'm sure you know like when we were talking about marijuana you talk about something that's federally illegal it's not something that's that's easy to run these FDA studies on I think we should I think anybody's got a legitimate interest in researching heater THC or canvas or any of the compounds for up for a medical condition

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run Phase 1 phase to phase 3 trials let's see if this if this if this plant is good but still why you saying that you don't think it is medicine when all these people find benefit in that so so do you think they're getting it from just the CBD than minimal amount of CBD and in marijuana know I think there's been a lot of research done on THC and cannabis it to see whether or not those weather THC is a compound in weather smoke cannabis can treat these conditions and for the most part the studies have been negative again there's negative meaning they haven't shown any actual like Tri-State safety studies book

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okay what what what were the conclusions of these studies when you're saying that they're not positive that they again that they didn't work that the drug did not work on what on cancer on all timers disease on here to bowel syndrome on a few different things out there and I appreciate the fact that we can't be going around you or saying things like you know cannabis cures cancer right but you know I know and I've done videos this even like recently stating that but if you look at the research I mean specifically if you look at specific answers there are Studies have shown that GHC and CBD can help the gate if we're talking about breast cancer I did a video on this recently you know if you are her2 positive and you use cheap seeing CBD the can in fact reduce tumor size and it can reduce tumor growth now if you have what is I'm sorry

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different types of breast cancer and that's just one subset of up breast cancer so there are other breast cancer switch do not express cannabinoid receptors in your I've seen one study at least again it's only one study to show that when they gave cheap seat and that animal and actually cause a proliferation of up to her so it works them so if I do agree with you out in fact that you only have to be careful about using terms like that but that just doesn't mean that we can't say that cannabis is no good for cancer at all and I mean even in the National academies of Science and Engineering report you know they said that was great for chemotherapy-induced nausea vomiting right so you know it it's definitely a really good medicine for you a lot of different things and we were talking about cheap see you know what I said earlier course and we need to be careful about out THC but it definitely is still a medicine and you know what your point with regards to its and not being a medicine safe for something like PTSD I come from

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from a clinician's point of view so I'm not a researcher so I need to make sure that my patients are getting better it's very frustrating for me just to say to someone or there's nothing I can do for you there's nothing I can do for you know it's so and I understand that you're doing something sometimes it's not going to be beneficial just because you doing something you have to do something that actually works but you know we do have epidemiological studies and we have other studies of the shown that when patients are given a canvas that can reduce their symptoms of PTSD there's also another study and I don't use this drug too often called called nabumetone a blown is just pure THC noblin was shown to reduce nightmares some people who have PTSD so it's just saying just so just because Chiefs psychoactive doesn't mean that it's not in a medicine and just to keep on the topic of of PTSD in addition to that we've identified mechanisms of action

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I know and I'm does one study I think Matt Hill was on the West Was Won the authors that study and he noticed that if people have PTSD there is no more 50% decrease in and levels of inanimate so and so you can get that through through exercise which is one way to do it and you don't and that's part of the the high that you that you get when after you exercise but the other way that you can get it is by using cannabis sew in 20 she attaches those CB1 receptors and get a release of an animal and cannabidiol can actually increase in and buy another mechanism of action as well so you don't through this different ways we can raise the level of of deficiency so you know what to me as a clinician you if I have someone who is not doing very well you know they've been on a bunch of different medications I've identified that you're the heir PTSD we

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the mechanism of action we have studies and then again to you don't discount my clinical experience right I've been working for over 5 years just with just with cannabis I mean I do other medicines I use for Sky by the medicine as well but I've been doing kind of medicine for it for over 5 years and you know there's a lot that that I've learned right so as much as I've learned you know through Reading studies and if you're going to conferences and things like that you know for sure that the the best resource as a clinician is is to learn from your patience and and hear what your patients tell me and you are the things are patients tell me is that THC is really effective for the sleep at night and a lot of my patients especially my bedroom patients had done really really well with with that and just just one further point to you. There was I know it was it was a 2015 I believe it was there was a a meta-analysis done I can pull it up if if we need to that indicated that you're a lot of medicines that are being used now for PTSD or just say

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the ineffective and jelly thing to is that there's never been a medicine made specifically for PTSD so all the medicines that people are using her for anxiety or there for depression or the for insomnia at the present weather for something else you know but when you look at I like like a study that says people with PTSD have a lower level of an anime and then if you can increase that a level of an animal I know that's a good way to treat someone doesn't matter whether it's a vitamin whether it's a hormone tagged along as you are correcting a day a deficiency your Jenner going to get excellent clinical results alcohol reduces blood pressure alcohol generally tends to reduce cardiovascular events for people and during prohibition you could actually get a doctor's note for alcohol as a medicine positive biological qualities and some negative biological quality

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is an argument I think you can tend to 20 years ago should we recommend that people drink moderately one to two drinks a day and I think for the most part the medical profession has come down on the side saying let's not do that there's too many non-cardiac negative side effects with alcohol just on that note to Alex in Canada right now I know the safe alcohol drinking guidelines are 14 drinks a week for men and 9 drinks a week for four women say you know it's basically a Susu again for men 1 and 1/2 for women's that's fine that's a totally reasonable way to think about alcohol but we're not saying people is this is a medicine and I think that's where the confusion around really run high THC cannabis flies and then again I don't mean to say that your friend's child is not benefiting if you say he or she is benefiting I believe you what I'm saying is that that's not good enough for sign

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we need randomized controlled trials and when those trucks have been done and a lot of them have been done Joe a lot of them have been done they've almost unequivocally shown a cannabis doesn't work as a medicine the only actual place where Beyond these are very limited conditions like a chemotherapeutic Associated nausea which obviously is terrible for people have it but he's in you know isn't that common fortunately cannabis has been shown to work as a pain reliever right probably for the same reasons that alcohol works as a pain reliever or awareness of your pain but even in that study or even though it's even in those studies they're mostly done against Placebo not against opioid or against NSAIDs like ibuprofen and there was a very big study for cannabis use in chronic pain over a multi-year. In Australia that came out last year that showed that people who use cannabis had a head more pain and use more opiates at the end of four years than people who didn't

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so that took bronze argument what medicine is that study though had a lot of Applause in it and the other thing is that you need to look at someone who is already using cannabis versus someone who is just using opiates so if someone is just using opioids and they want to come off cannabis you all this multiple multiple Studies have shown that that can be effective and that's not was the what was done in the Australian study that that you were referring to get some more naturalistic have access to medical marijuana during that whole during the whole time and they were getting it from your recreational sources they weren't getting it from that's a big that's a big distinction of Alex like they weren't getting it from a doctor who prescribed the two of them they were there with this is a self-reported study and people are getting cannabis that you know they didn't really know what they were getting it wasn't

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working any information from a doctor and that's why it's a medicine now it's because you can tell someone you can tell a patient to take a certain amount of CBD every single day and when you take a certain amount every single day it can reduce your symptoms and sometimes you to increase that and sometimes you need to decrease a psychoactive version of it in this is where it where you're saying it's negative you're not you're not really arguing that CBD is its negative he's titrating is patient he's monitoring them he's not writing them an authorization it's and come back in a year when it when it's up he's he's he's being a physician and you know and I think he said that marijuana is medicine we want people like him so you admit it

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I don't think I just said that and this came up in the book to secure clinician you seasick people and it was one of my wife's a doctor to she's a psychiatrist that's how my wife is a forensic psychiatrist clinician these days her job is to evaluate people not so much to treat people your job is to treat people you seasick people you want to help them feel better and you don't want to tell them there's nothing I can do for you there's nothing there's there's no hope for your pain there's no hope for your PTSD you want to help them and I totally get that but if you're an epidemiologist or researcher who was trying to guide you know the views on the medical practice of hundreds of thousands of doctors that's not good enough so you need to step back and I think I think you know this this epidemiologist in Britain

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he said to me he said you know I try not to draw conclusions because so often when I try to draw them I'm wrong and we need to be careful about that right and and I'll tell you one thing that was mentioned in your book you know is that you know you off to you often say that the national academies of Science and Engineering right but you know Ziva Cooper and she's a member of that committee I mean she put out on honor Twitter mean you can go to it is from January 9th of 2019 she says in response in the recent year times editorial on cannabis and as a Committee Member, right but this is someone you cited that okay so she said in response to the recent York Times editorial on campus as a Committee Member on Nason which is a committee and cannabinoid support we did not conclude that cannabis cause

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schizophrenia then the drug Alliance policy also said the report did not reach that conclusion so those are pretty too authoritative sources that they're saying that still in your book you didn't cite the research properly write and then also they're saying that you left a lot out right they said that they have found an association between marijuana use and prove talked it out, some individuals with psychotic disorders that straight from the same report and you failed to mention that right so I think that you were writing boxer when were giving out information know you want to do it from the balanced approach you don't want to just select all the small amount of a material that just going to support your study you know we want to be truthful hair Jose show is all done very very truthful mean Joe said right where the beginning he doesn't think that that that cannabis is perfect for everyone and I don't think that either end in Canada you don't we have really strict.

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instafollow you're basically no one prescribes cheap seed anyone under the age of 25 and you're all the conferences and stuff that I go to kneel we don't really have too many discussions about that like the doctors don't really have money much of a backlash about that so yeah it is fully developed and when you do look at the studies that do show you an association between between cannabis and psychosis it's almost all in adolescence do I think that Alex only has one study and is in his book that shows an extremely weak correlation between an adult using cannabis and then developing any type of mental illness later so you're 25 is it's a it's a good age but it's definitely a new kind of a conservative ish ish age but it's it's something that that we follow and I think

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don't we done by what I can. So Alex why did you leave those conclusions I don't know I need to push back by Committee of 16 researchers Ziva Cooper isn't the one who's publicly said the report said this but I think that we should have emphasized that it also said this okay what I what I wrote in that New York Times op-ed what I wrote In the book is the plain language of the report and plain language is this cannabis use is associated with the risk of developing schizophrenia and other psychoses the higher the use the greater the risk I may have a word or two wrong and I cuz I'm doing it from memory but that's what it said and by the way the committee was very clear today separated depression they said they're we don't see as nearly as high risk for depression and psychosis even though by the way today just today Jama psychiatry

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turn on the American Medical Association Psychiatry put out a meta-analysis showing the canvas is associated with depression and suicidal thinking and actually suicide attempts at a three and a half to one right this is this literally was released today but but to go back to Ziva is 1 of 16 members of that committee so if you're going to talk you're going to say that I miss quoted the report which I didn't I quoted entirely accurately you need to say well why aren't the other fifteen members of that committee saying that I miss quoted why is one person who works for the Cannabis research initiative at UCLA which takes money from Cannabis investors and users she's the one who said that I miss quoted it maybe she maybe we should ask why the other members the committee are not speaking out against my book I think that she was just one of the 16 members that they came out but you know you can't really expect all the other members to potentially you'll come out with that

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some people will in some people won't you with some people have filled the personality some people have the platform like you don't see that has a bunch of followers on our Twitter people know who she is you a lot of people who do research actually you're not into social media at all like I don't think you were at all before you had your book where you think that most people on that committee are retiring to social media and Ziva just just happens to be and you know I even spoke to Ziva on the phone about this and he and she said that yeah you know I I don't that she agrees with everything that was in the report but she doesn't agree with your conclusions and to go back to us but you're only quoting but you're only quoting the parts that are that site persuade that back your did your opinions you're not quoting the entire part like you left like why did you leave out the part that said they had found an association between marijuana use and

► 00:40:35

how come some individuals with psychotic disorders right so you're leaving out that parcel watch Hulu that buy that was sort of a big issue that we have not heard about at all and the reason that we haven't heard about it have a lot to do with the advocacy community and the way they presented this data for 25 years I wrote a book that is trying to break through a lot of noise

► 00:41:09

so but still like it take to get a balanced approach did you decide that you were only going to be the only going to write about things that confirm your belief that you held when you were writing this and what you were trying to push in the title of the book and then in the conclusion of the but I think it's a really great question I say me introduction to book this book is not balanced there's not a lot of evidence in there if you want if you want to read about how indica and sativa strains are different than you know you're not going to come at this time I say this in the introduction to book to as an auntie cannabis Crusader impact with my wife said to me and she said to me over and over again in 20 Unit 14 and 15 and 16 of the cases that I'm seeing these are the terrible things that people are doing after Cannabis used to send her first of all why do I always have to hear but more importantly

► 00:42:09

why is it that maybe these people are using other drugs maybe maybe you're seeing a slice of the population that it's not representative why is it that I should believe this it sounds like Reefer Madness to me and your ultimate leave my wife who's the one who went to in our to actually I was talking to doctor about this she grew up in in Newfoundland to she went to the Memorial University of Newfoundland medical school and she went to Harvard and Columbia for her postgraduate training she got tired of me yapping back at her and she said want you to read the studies yourself and it was that that let me to read to write this book because when I read the studies I could not believe the strength of the evidence Joe but you still even saying that you're still seeing positive result that you're you're excluding there's this one there's this one sentence that means not just once but there are a few sentences about how it may be that cannabis helps people is positive

► 00:43:09

what helps it help cognition in people with psychosis wouldn't have psychotic breaks and an improved cognitive function and people psychotic breaks so so wouldn't that be something that you would prescribe does anyone know again about how to get your medicine I understand the fda's position but I mean you're looking at it as medicine I mean if we could prove this through studies and through some sort of clinical trials if it is improving your IQ two points on a test Amazon I think I'm not sure we're just going to have to look at that I'm not sure about it. How come for us to you whether or not you're not that's not medicine but it's not necessarily the same time one of the things that I read about schizophrenia was that there's people are trying to make a correlation between marijuana use and schizophrenia but the problem with that correlation and what I read

► 00:44:09

maybe you can help me on that stuff yet was that it's the exact same number that you find the general population is it is essentially 1% of the general population has schizophrenia which is one out of a hundred people and when you have marijuana users you see is essential that same number mirrored and so they're saying it's not that's not true what I read was that marijuana use was associated with the onset of schizophrenia but they were disputing this in the study because they were saying because the same number is mirrored in the general population again correlation does not equal causation right now so you'll see that you don't the people who use cannabis rest of the people who don't use cannabis have very similar rates but you're getting to the exact rate you know it so in the US they say that the range for schizophrenia is it between 0.25 to 0.64%

► 00:45:09

play they say it's 0.33 to 0.75% so you'll right there it's apparently lower in in the US and the USA's is has the highest percentage of cannabis consumption in the world and the US also has a lot of people that are using High potency THC so you know I think that you'll really need to be be careful about throwing up your stats like that because you're when you do look at the stuff that we have it shows that even though there's a lot of cannabis use in the United States schizophrenia rates have remained the same so I have to put this is one of the great mess of legal is it okay no one knows what the schizophrenia or psychosis rate in the 80s in the US different times we have we have bad Health Care in this country and we have a lot of protections around mental health in fact in 2017 the National Institutes of mental health suddenly changed

► 00:46:09

estimate for the percentage of people with schizophrenia in the US from 1.1% to 0.3% they did with no public notice and then this researcher said hey this is a miracle they just cured 2 million people with schizophrenia and the and then in response to that the director of the NIMH said well we actually don't know how many people have schizophrenia in the United States nobody knows nobody knows if the rate is increasing nobody knows if it's decreasing the only countries where they can count noses on this with any accuracy are Northern Europe because I have good Healthcare cuz I'm slightly you know less protections around their individual privacy and mental health privacy and so they are able to count cases and in Denmark and Finland which are which are the two places where they've actually done this research in the last 20 years they've shown increasing rates of schizophrenia between about 1995 in about 2010 and that goes side by side with increasing rates of cannabis use in the 90s so the people who are saying that there's no evidence of popular

► 00:47:09

what increases in psychosis are just wrong as possible environmental factors is a bunch of other different things that you consider the evidence at this point to say the cannabis use in the u.s. is causing a population level increase in psychosis and schizophrenia which are oh by the way those words are different illnesses and we can we can talk about that too so we don't have you ever to say there's a definite increase but what I'm saying is that what you have been told that there is no increase in schizophrenia or psychosis rates in the US that's we don't know if that's true or not we just don't ask you this there has been proven that there's an increase in marijuana use is that correct yes increase begin and how what how what percentage is that increase is there was there was an increase in the 90s and increase in use and a potency user to bottom. Around 1991 and then there was her of a flat

► 00:48:09

since 92 the corresponding increase in schizophrenia if there was any sort of correlation in the early 90s increased in the 90s flattened out between about 2000-2006 and since then has been especially in the last 15 years has gone way up I drank anybody there is evidence there is there is now a nose other countries that schizophrenia and psychosis has gone up and there's for the first time in 2017 there's data showing that serious mental illness which is not the same as psychosis or schizophrenia in the u.s. double between 2008 and 2017 in the end the people aged 18 to 25 and those are the people who are most likely to be using so for the first time

► 00:49:09

there's actually evidence of what you're talkin about which is a population-wide increase can I get you to clarify chase a serious mental help so those defined there's a study Club a national survey on drug use and how it's done every year cover 70,000 people federal government funds it it's for the best data source we have on all this stuff it show that and they're not counting cases either know but let me just be as quick as I can. It's nobody's counting schizophrenia cases on a national or even state-level bands in the US but you say to people did you have depression so bad that you couldn't get out of bed did you in a were you hospitalized this year for Psychotherapy for any inpatient psychiatric reason and and if you look at those numbers in 2008 3.7% of 3.8% of Americans 18 to 25 reported

► 00:50:07

at least one symptom so they were categorized as having serious mental illness that year in 2017 that number was 7.5% so that's a double so again I am not going to say that proves that the increase in cannabis use has caused this this population of something but something bad has happened and if you look at 12:17 interesting Lee they over that time. Didn't have a big increase in cannabis use in general teenagers actually are pretty healthy now although Jewel in vaping maybe on doing that and those kids didn't have a population that will increase in serious mental illness is Yuval Noah Harari has a great book of 21 lessons for the 21st I read that it's great to attend social media I talked about that as well and that the onset of social media is actually more hate and then

► 00:51:07

karate but the Johnson he talks about it but young people social media and social media have lead an incredible amount of young people to serious mental distress and you know serious anxiety serious depression and suicide amongst young girls has increased some 50% according to hate over the. Of 2007 to I think two thousand and whenever his book was written and I think they're directly correlating that to the pressures of social media and to you know anonymous online bullying and all these different factors that are affecting kids yet so I think that is that could be considered of a far more significant new form of of distress to children and young people then even marijuana I think it does it to fold cuz I think that you know what makes people really depressed maybe more so than anxious but definitely both is that when you compare yourself

► 00:52:07

to someone else and obviously that we've done that in all all humans have done that you don't send this sick since history began but now everything is online you can compare your life to everyone and if people are doing all the time and even worse than that and you know we should talk about this too is that the income gap is getting is getting water so it's like people's lives not only are they getting better than other people's lives but it's what it now it's on it's on display so everyone can see it where is before you'll maybe you wouldn't have seen it because it wasn't on social media but now it's it's on social media if she had this huge income got that just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger and then you have people going and going on social media and they're comparing themselves and you're absolutely right especially in that in that age population in people under under the age of 30 you know what they're definitely know what they're being bullied online like I see it every day in my office like literally everyday people are being bullied online and that's yo some of that I never had you want to do

► 00:53:07

OSI growing up here and you a lot of kids do have to have to deal with that just one more notes to I'm on the edge since Colorado has has has legalized cannabis this important for her for this this the subject Miss topic Dave actually seen marijuana weights decrease so it's important for people to know that you just be continuous or overall you spell overall uses up right so teen years you would classify as part of that category in Colorado we have seen a decrease any means part of it is like one worried I had you I haven't looked into the statistics yet cuz you know when when you're going up and when you're in high school you know if you want to be part of

► 00:54:07

young cool crowd so to say what you usually drink or you smoke pot you know that's what some people do I hope that that doesn't change because pot seeing as medicine I hope that you know people don't you don't move on to do something you'll harsher because they don't see pot as as cool anymore so I got to push back on so everything you say about serving to Italy sounds correct write the problem is the data doesn't support this at all the data shows that teenagers another 12 to 17 and those kids are healthier than they were 10 or 20 or 30 years ago they drink less they smoke less they have sex later if you were born shouldn't they are healthier okay and their mental health doesn't seem to have changed that much based on the nsduh data okay the data shows a big change in kids 18 to

► 00:55:07

they go to college if something goes wrong for a lot of those kids at least in the last few years now but when you met you when you talk about suicide rates girls who are apparently more affected by social media they have gone up significantly since the rise of social media that is the big fat people who are most like more so than cannabis so you're so your tiny tiny tiny of the people who know it's not a John Grubb this is something we can look up Willits find out what the numbers are because when Jonathan hate was on the podcast you discussed it mean he showed this chart and it's an alarming increase directly correlated with the ink

► 00:56:07

recent use of social media generally are less healthy than they were 10 or 20 years ago in saying you just said there more help parents with mental health I mean they're less likely to use drugs or less we should look up the number if we're going to ever going to actually look Johnson hates work is like very well respected what what I'm saying to you is that there's a clear increase in psychological distress and kids and young adult 18 to 25 okay there's a clear increase and those are the people who are most likely be using cannabis people that are most likely on social media as well and that's a stressful.

► 00:57:07

what's the most recent Winston at home like 18 to 25 then you got to go to university you got to deal with all these course running fact could be negative but I don't understand why you're not willing to admit that social media has a significant and unprecedented impact on young people that we've never see why would I would totally Ruth that but I don't think that you can say based on the population of elated that the impact is all negative it may be said with young girl right but that's when you were fifteen or maybe you got really drunk right and wound up in a bathtub like maybe kids today are less likely to do that because of social media because they know it's going to be on Instagram forever I don't think that's true I don't think that's proven and I don't even think there's anything that would point to that what I can tell you is proven is that kid

► 00:58:07

today I'm at teens 1217 have a less psychological distress by all these measures I'm talking about their actual behaviors are better or a better or worse that the moral judgment but they're healthier than they were 10 or 20 or 30 years ago they're less likely to have sex there less when they're 14 which I think most of us it's a good thing they're less likely to be a drinking they're less likely to be smoking those are good thing will be less likely to be drinking less likely to smoke and less likely to have sex does not correlate to positive mental Outlook and less suicide depression and suicide of the very difficult things to measure right

► 00:58:55

the bottom numbers of the pain female I mean this is what I'm saying the death rate first of all this is this is the death rate for girls aged 15 to 19 is 4 / 100,000 jokes a 40 it's at a 40-year high I mean it was 3 per hundred thousand in 1975 and it's a little bit over four in 2015 that's not that's one case per 100,000 girls

► 00:59:25

yeah I don't know what that I don't know what the actual facts are I'm looking at this right now and suicide rates for teens 15 to 19 years. Is this something we have to study sharp have this discussion at 9 at about 95 what a middle-aged men on this route you'd have to you have to blow out the ceiling people the suicide crisis age okay I would agree with that I think will we we actually talked about that yesterday was Andrew Yang the suicide amongst men in their 50s and then they start to feel useless yeah yeah and especially if they lose their jobs but what Jonathan hate is pointing to is a direct correlation between social media use depression and suicide amongst young girl thank you for finding what is it suicide rate for teen girls the highest it's been in 40 years is social media to blame

► 01:00:20

you do to prevent its release Thursday by the atlanta-based Centers for Disease Control and prevention suicide rate amongst 15 to 19 year old girls doubled between 2007 and 2015 reaching a 40-year high I would say that significant and it's obviously a terrible thing with anybody come in so that means it's 5 that means for every 100,000 American girls in 2015 5 committed suicide that's not a very high number but I mean that's also someone who has pushed to the extreme taking their life how many girls are experiencing severe depression but don't commit suicide that's the real Factor because this is what hate directly connect to social media again the 50% increase you're talking about a relatively small number because not as many girls commit suicide as man but still this could you're talking about you were talking about depression right and you were talking about these significant factors that would mean people that have poor Mental Health

► 01:01:20

this could be a huge factor in this right and I think that to it leads people to your own suicidal ideations and depression and anxiety me right here we're just looking at has the worst and pour it possible that is very rare months girls. Right to be careful about that because you know again suicide is is the aim that it's the worst thing that could possibly happen so what about you know all all the all the things leading up to it you know other people who are you don't commit suicide but you'll suffer from terrible depression suffer from terrible anxiety suffer from terrible insomnia and you know those people are not accounted for in that grass and what I'm saying is that cannabis use has spiked in the United States in the last 15 years and teens notwithstanding we've seen a large degradation in a number of the social outcomes and now

► 01:02:20

just today we have a Jama Psychiatry paper that looked at a bunch of other studies that said cannabis use in teenagers is associated with depression suicidal ideation and suicide attempts in people once they get to 18230 okay you could possibly be a factor that these kids are depressed because of social media and they're using cannabis the fact that you know you just said again that study was done on adolescents Yo Joe and I have both concede it multiple times that you know we do not think High cheap see cannabis is good for people in that age category but you know just adjusted back up just a little bit of game you know I don't like I said earlier that you I don't prescribe cheap see Jenna to anyone under the age of 25 most of a doctors in Canada don't but I think that we should be prescribing CBD

► 01:03:20

these kids like a lot of those kids you know who have suicidal ideations depression I mean you know you could never do a study on it but how many of those kids wouldn't have committed suicide or wouldn't be feeling this way if they were using CBD because we know SSRI selective serotonin reuptake Inhibitors you know which are the most commonly prescribed a medication for depression and anxiety even in in in adolescence we know that they big they came increased suicidal ideation that's been shown I mean it's written right on right on the package so again like as a clinician you have to your treat your patients if you're just treating people with something that's it's not effective are there that has horrible side effects you're going to look at other alternative treatments a lot of people have had shown are so I have had excellent results with CBD in that age category you know I've had had it done in my practice and lots of other positions have had it done end in their practice so it's

► 01:04:20

really important that we were talking about teenagers and we were talking about that study you're talking about high potency THC in adolescence that's where you'll Joe and I both can see that your Chichi is is not a good medicine study with CBD and depression or some other cannabinoids and non-intoxicating cannabinoid and depression and get it approved for that that be great we need we need all the treatments for depression and for and boy do we need treatment for psychosis that we can get I totally read that and I'm really glad to hear you say you don't think that adolescents should be using High potency or any hard drugs on the Alcohol versus a cannabis 14 sling and I know that this is a common feeling among you know most people in Brooklyn among people in LA

► 01:05:20

find me right think I'm interrupting you know some of the General Center left to left view everywhere is that cannabis is better for teens and alcohol I totally disagree with that canvas alcohol alcohol is bad to be careful with anything that's severely perturbs your sense of reality when you're a young kid and you're trying to form your vision of the world I think to unpack what we're saying here is that there is an increase in mental health disorders amongst young kids that corresponds to the increased use of social media and may correspond to the use of cannabis but that's not necessarily proven what we guarantee almost universally is these kids are on social media and also too much more likely that their on social media than you

► 01:06:20

cannabis I think a lot of them use cannabis I don't think all of them text think through all of them are on social media absolutely yeah I think that you're almost every single kid these days these days has a cell phone and they have some type of social media account I know everything I'm worried about them using Valium I'm worried about the Xanax yes I'm worried about the stimulants are adderal I think I think psychiatrist give out ADD medicine kids when they're trying to study for test when they're trying to take the rest eighties when they're trying to get into a good college I know so many people that are on that shit I know so many people whether they're journalists i900 comedians I know a lot of fucking people to run adderal yes and you need to develop that kind of like toughness what when you're young like gas just be like you're 14 years old and then you

► 01:07:20

you run into your first in a bit of trouble in your life and then you you reach for a pill that's terrible right that's a terrible coping coping mechanism so young when you teach that the kids at an early age and we tell them it's such a terrible thing to tell someone oh you're 14 years old you have major depressive disorder you're going to take this pill you need it for the rest of your life and that said the people all the time you have a biochemical deficiency in this is what you need we need kids to be tougher right so you need you need them to You'll build up some sort some resiliency so that you know when they do go through hard times know they have better coping mechanisms like Joe talks about diet and exercise all the time I talked about diet and exercise all the time and that's kind of how I got my my start on on social media is through diet and exercise exercise is a big one for young chits me it was a gigantic factor for me personally when I was 15 years old I really got into martial arts and it changed my life

► 01:08:20

piety giving me so much more relaxed my parents talk about Theirs to use theirs before martial arts since you after martial arts relatively young kids I love the devices I mean I mean we have to fight and we can orchids before 6 at this point they don't have their own iPad or iPhone or any answer you give it to them for 5 minutes if it's not entirely negative like we have this this TV set up with this dance game that they play and they're sweating and dancing and after it's over the giggling and laughing it's in a massive alleviator of a physical stress because it's like they're constantly got a file this thing and it's it's an exercise routine I mean they're really there cardio they're there for cardiovascular rate it gets up

► 01:09:20

it really feel good after it's not entirely negative but it's mostly negative was this little thing that we can use your phone and if you hold a phone like I'll give them the other one that her phone and like the phone shows how you're moving it's very weird so like you like you mimic this thing that the person on the screen is doing but that mean that's one thing that could could be considered positive I think for the most part the real issue is social pressure and anxiety that comes from kids talking shit about each other and they do they push buttons they push buttons on each other because they know that they can understand the consequences high school but you would get free from it when you went home you're not free from it ever now these kids are waking up in the middle of the night and checking their Twitter

► 01:10:20

in front of their friends are talking shit about them whether it's on Facebook or whatever in this girl from school that fucking bitch and she commented on my YouTube video but this is a LOL I'm a twelve-year-old that's a severe severe factor that no one had to consider before and it makes you almost not want to go to school I just kiss you don't go to school because of that cuz I don't want to have to deal with you or someone said some I sent in my office all the time someone said something to them last night on social media so I didn't go to school today because I don't want to have to face that like that's something that my generation never ever had to face a little bit shattered as big if not bigger anxiety lack of sleep

► 01:11:20

depression absolutely are correlated with altercations on social media sure but social interactions that are severely negative their correlated with poor mental health good news is the brain is a relatively strong and powerful some people again it's less than 1% for schizophrenia which is the most severe version you answer that you had bipolar disorder with psychosis depressive psychosis other kinds of psychosis maybe we get to about three to four percent of the population is going to be diagnosed clinically with one of these illnesses over the course of their life so that's a lot of people psychotic and most the time if they do there's either a genetic component that's obvious cause psychosis and schizophrenia often do run in families or there's an environmental component that that's pretty obvious any people can get psychotic they can get a brain tumor

► 01:12:20

I'm psychotic they can you know it's late in life they can get dementia that makes him psychotic that often tied up pretty clear organic cause okay so when we're so the brain is a relatively strong and healthy organ and it takes a lot to break it and that's why that's a bold statement okay I mean I'm not saying that people don't get depressed to make a lot to break people depressed all over the Press with the child anti-psychotic medication was prescribed medication to crazy like people say to me you know I'm on antidepressant I'm on I'm on a meeting zaida medication now people like I hear them at parties and stuff saying like Oman Seroquel I'm just thinking like that person just tell a bunch of people that like they're on antipsychotics antipsychotics as outside the class when reality they're part of the car

► 01:13:20

how to put back on your little bit

► 01:13:22

sales numbers for those those are expensive drugs they're not the most prescribed drugs in the country Abilify was the most prescribed drug in the United States should look that up Podcast cuz it's insane to talk a little bit about antipsychotic Abilify the biggest selling expensive but fucking that's crazy out of all the people with actual disease is this is 1/14 most prescribed brand-name medication to retails for about $30 a pill. Is an add-on antidepressant some people like life is hard for a lot of people like very hard Alex very difficult

► 01:14:22

okay so a lot of people need something sometimes at the end of the day or during the day to help them get through the day cannabis especially the CBD component and also the cheap see component wet when used properly is okay like I tell people all the time I've made so I paid social media posts about it that like you if you need to use a little bit of cannabis at the end of the day just to help you sleep and you're doing great and you're staying away from like drugs and like you know prostitution gambling all these other brutal this

► 01:14:58

Tesla doing all that they like you doing you're doing pretty good over all right so gambling is not bad bro a little bit of time so cuz I can..... So far I've been giving people handheld devices that that are inherently addictive where they can bet on Sports every law 15 seconds is a super bad idea but we can hundred percent agreed on things benefit of me with social media is my eyesight is going as I've gotten older like I can't even read my Twitter feed these people I don't lie I don't read it if I don't put my glasses I don't know what the fuck they're saying oh my God

► 01:15:36

okay we are discussing overall mental health yes I'm saying this because I really think that is something that I have made a big turn over the last few years with myself that I think I don't think marijuana is as safe as I used to think it is I used to think it was benign I really think there was no big deal but I have a friend that I discussed the other day who was a really confident of the fucking muscular handsome man that never did anything and he took a marijuana edible to go to sleep in for 2 weeks this guy was fighting has a different guy not that I was talking to not know he took it in the experience suicidal thoughts and in all these severe consequences I think that the human beings we vary so much biologically that to just make this overall blanket statement what's good for you is good for me is irresponsible

► 01:16:36

I've been responsible to saying that what for what reason it's interesting what reason I think that alcohol is so widely accepted despite all the problems it causes and again alcohol can certainly cause problems with alcohol affects most people pretty much the same way you know if any sort of know if what somebody looks like when they have one drink when they have five drinks I have some drinks since I've got some friends to get those still receiving. Charles guys they just gone when they start talking crazy is so different it's really complicated drunk and it does affect different people in different with us and also the tolerance has changed radically see you vape at that's like one drink for somebody who you know who doesn't use but then in the user you can use to

► 01:17:32

that's a tea drinks it's a weird drug and then there's the issue of eating it when you eat your body produces something called 11 hydroxy metabolite it's a far more psychoactive for the right when that have yes you are yes and it can take days for it to get out of your system I'm I know many people of eating marijuana edibles and then they call me up the next day like dude I'm still hot so so so I think I think the legalization Community have sort of said for years like oh there's basically no downsides to this there's only upside to the cops will boss smokers tax revenue all his people have a way to get high that's clearly safer than alcohol and unfortunate that's just not true I think you're right and I think the the the issue that people from what I've read are having with your book or people that are marijuana Advocates to think that your position is unbalanced and that you've ignored the positive aspects of THC in terms of like what he's talking about conative benefits for people with c

► 01:18:32

erotic episodes and that you were only focusing on the negative I think that's I think that's also I'll plead guilty of that myself cuz I think that I've only been discussing the positive and one of the things that I've tried very hard to do and one of the things I've learned how to do from doing this podcast experience and criticism and communicating with a bunch of different people with a lot of different viewpoints is examined my own positions and try to figure out am I coming at this from a truly bound position or am I trying to support a conclusion that I started out with and I'm trying to you know somehow or another backup my own work or backup my own my own statements and end insert a prop them up instead of being really honest and objective it's very difficult to do I want to call tell your children that you buy marijuana mental illness and violence I don't think you can you can think that that book is going to be a compendium of the pros and cons about

► 01:19:32

tell your children the truth though you really do want to tell them the pros and cons of any did indicate Alex you said you know we should tell people the truth ain't in the book right so you know I think that when you're telling and you're saying that that you're telling the truth and Alex on agreeing with you that you're telling her all of the true right but part of the truth is in a little bit deceiving and deceptive in some way it's right you want to tell the whole truth when you tell the whole truth and he gave the whole story and then people can actually make you know good informed decision based upon that like if people are are going to just read one part of the story then of course they're going to make a decision just based upon that one part they're not going to make an informed decision based upon all of the price and because of that people are going to make some very poor choices I completely agree with that but to me the last 20 years have been an exercise in the other side in the legalization side doing a very very good job talking up it sorry

► 01:20:32

it's an essentially there's a there's almost nobody I never said there's this one guy about Jeff sessions but do we have the fucking God damn attorney general this time of people that good people don't smoke marijuana but that's what are there more but that's that's a terrible thing to say to people don't smoke marijuana and by the way I think this is a personal choice okay especially for adults yeah okay and you can make bad personal choices you go look I play cards I love to play poker I'm sad that on this trip to La I didn't get to go to a pool but you can go a new casino and you can see people of Los Angeles places close by

► 01:21:20

don't encourage you can go to a casino and see people lost their also means that there's less and more dangerous form that device in your hand where you can bet on with the next pitch is going to be in NBA Ballers that's more dangerous than my having to drive to the Commerce and play there and 100% or 98% THC that an 18 year old babes is a lot more dangerous than a 5% you know CBD 15% THC product the doctor heart might suggest his patient uses Once a Night to go to slippery but that right that's the message that you know we should be putting out there right we shouldn't just be you're focusing on one side of the story like that part you know should also be included in the book in like you know you're booked you in some way since made me rethink the way that I write you all because it's not my first book I was co-opted with Jeremy Carson call Friendly Fire my second book that I'm ready now is called KMS for ptg so it's how to transform post-traumatic stress into post-traumatic growth

► 01:22:20

right because I feel that in your we all know examples of people that have you encountered really difficult obstacles in their life and some people have you'll succumb to that stress and they've gone down you know I'm the wrong path kind of thing and then other people have used that stress to their advantage and they've actually become better because of it and CBD and THC can both help facilitate that processed know when you're looking at someone like like a veteran for example you're the Hallmark of song with his PTSD is someone who doesn't leave their home and they can't sleep at night so like when I see a bat in my office a lot of times will be leaving your home like 5 to 10 days a month right so when you give him CBD and this is really important people understand CBD has been shown to decrease learned fear that's incredible right so if you can get people outside the home because I'm not talking about again you know someone who's you too nervous to like go to a you know

► 01:23:20

the bar with like a friend's assuming that I'm tired of people who like it was difficult thing to go to the grocery store just like pick up a few things so me with those type of people that I see my packs of CBD is really asking for that day when you look at you know what the night time component cheap see again it's asking for reducing nightmares that's been shown in studies and it was even shown with one pharmaceutical drug noblin again I don't really use not blowing very much because it's only one cannabinoid and I do believe in in in the Entourage effect in using all of other cannabinoids so I don't use that that much but that shows that she's so you can reduce nightmares and you know if you have if you have PTSD I mean if you talk to someone who is Peaches seeing again this is this comes from a clinician's point of view they will tell you I will try anything that's the same way when you get with like you know the parents of of of kids who have seizures all day nobody wants to see that and let him like Alex you if you're a kid

► 01:24:20

you ever started getting fitting seizures which you don't I hope I hope they don't because it's it's terrible you know what what it can do to people but you're winning when if that ever happened you know I would hope that you would consider your CBD as potential federal government in certain levels is arguing against CBD that's probably some pushback from the pharmaceutical industry the reality is CBD is proving to be at least as far as I've read very safe and very effective for a bunch of different disorders especially those that are about reducing in that have something to do with inflammation or seizure yeah one of my good friends his son has developed seizures and CBD knocked it out just killed it this is very recently

► 01:25:20

going to dispensary know exactly what they're buying why is it that they want such a high potency THC product cuz they get used to it your tolerance develops builds up every year we do this thing called sober October will we don't do it no drinking no no part in some sort of crazy challenge me and three of my buddies and when we do it I would say it's very interesting how your tolerance is a radically reduced like I'll smoke pot at the end of that month and I'm going to call Lee shit like I don't even know what I'm talking about mid-sentence and I'm just so it's great whereas you know now like I smoked a little weed last night did some stand-up had a great all time there's no issues with it at all but I'm used to it and if the weed that I smoked last night I assume you don't smoke night okay if you and me were together last night and I'll give you a hint of my joint you'd be still there in the corner in the fetal position go to in the fuck is going on cuz the marijuana is ridiculously powerful but once you're accustomed to

► 01:26:20

once your body acclimates it's really not that big of a deal the problem is you're dealing with a lot of Habitual daily users and for those people are my friend Joey Diaz there's a video of him giving this other comedian how many milligrams are the stars of death when we give Owen what did he give you ruined his life at about 200 and 250 like literally suck the guy's head up like he went outside and vanished he's gone I think there's a real argument to be made its particular with him two points on that so you definitely came develop a tolerance seal and I tell people all the time trying to take at least one three-week break but the evidence does show that if you stop for 4 weeks

► 01:27:20

finally all your sector has returned and will be like you've never use cannons before 7 but I mean these people are you using I'm pretty sure it was like clothes like seven joints a day really heavy smokes all day and he just like is always high and you know you like but what are you doing you're not eyes like what is like I'm never not high so everything he does he is high as fuck literally everything does look for that and for the way he lives his life like he's just a relaxed easygoing guy is no problem you can be high all day and live his life and he's obviously wildly successful with this strategy second point I was I was I was going to make on that too though was there does not appear to be any tolerance at the CB2

► 01:28:20

Tri-C attaches to the CB1 receptor and that's when that's where we know we can get tolerance know some people you know what they if they have some pain that you some THC and sometimes you need a little bit more saying some time to sleep you overuse you see it'll work and then I'll stop working with CVG to we haven't seen that many like the people who you'll get get seizure control generally they don't need to increase the dose like the girl I was talking about earlier I first described I think when she was 20 and she was by him 20 to 25 now she's never increase your dose now she's just use the same amount of CBD for the last five years right but you work for you so you don't talk too much CBD I just saying what I did to make a note on the on the intolerance of obscenity one I just want to make a note that CB2 the doesn't appear to be taught so it's just there's just such a significant impact when it when it comes to especially edible THC it's a significant impact on

► 01:29:20

Peoples State of Mind and it's not always good. That's just the fact we were talking about this when we're out but the radio interview on the Acela are from from DC to New York last month and this woman came in and was Baltimore she sat down next to me and I finished the interview and she said she said I couldn't help overhearing. Cheese's like she's even she she's a pothead or she's just annoyed that I was doing this but you know she said you know I was in Seattle last month she is woman was in her early thirties she's a lawyer she said and a friend of mine said to me let's let's have it was doing edible she said I took a we bought a small dose we ask them for a small those I took half of it so I think she took like 5 Min and she said she said I got so paranoid she said I couldn't sleep all night fortunately my friend took and didn't have any problem answer the watched over me but she said the worst part

► 01:30:20

it took me weeks weeks for the anxiety Too Faced no I don't she said but this was just a totally different experience I think there's a big problem with education a big problem with the education that edible marijuana as we talked about before I think you were in the bathroom the 11 hydroxy metabolite as it's processed by the liver it's a radically different truck radically different and it's really a psychedelic for me personally edible marijuana and flotation tanks I might as well be taking a fucking bucket of a second because it is a crazy goddamn experience now I personally enjoy being paranoid and I know this sounds crazy but I think with me it gives me and I think I lived a pretty blessed life and I like I like the feeling of paranoid because it allows me to explore maybe some are it like maybe it's just

► 01:31:20

such a freak out man I think I have maybe an abundance of confidence maybe I have too much right maybe I'm too successful what I like about the parable probably comes with edible marijuana is it allows me to check myself allows me to put myself examined all of my behavior in the darkest recesses of my mind my thoughts and in gives me a perspective makes me a nicer person that you go just a little tiny go just a little me some people use it and like at the end of the day and then you're like like Joe said I think it makes you reflect sometimes better and more objectively meaning that like you know maybe had encounter with someone earlier in the day and then you know it's late at night. Talk up a bit and like all men, should have done things a little bit differently all all the time

► 01:32:20

it forces you to reflect in a different state and sometimes when you reflect in that state you come up with thoughts that that you just want to come up with before me all the time like it just kind of brakes this like negative state that I have I'm just able to to to to break out of a negative State and think logically United I'm sick people say that to me all the time to me you're talking about something different and it works for you right your your your paranoia is it sounds more almost existential it's how can I be a better person what am I doing wrong in my life it's not my wife is poisoning me where they are the cops are going to bust through the fucking thing and that's why some people

► 01:33:20

fucking shit together when it's possible to

► 01:33:24

we may need to go to the main need to be intervenes before they have shown in in studies that if you make an intervention other than outside of the psychotic symptoms you can actually reduce the incidence of violence was going to mention earlier to bring up genetics because we are teasing out genetics for people and we are discovering that certain people do have certain genetics that do predispose them to certain cannabis disorder that's right so I'm involved with me with the company that's doing that right now we're trying to create canvas genetic test for people right and there's three genes that we've identified so far no one of them is an APK 14 genotyping that has been shown to be associated with a deficit and brain volume when it when you do use cannabis and it was two other genes that apt1 and a c a d a

► 01:34:24

M2 genotype you're both of those have also been shown to to be associate with cannabis but again you know how many people have them DME pk14 it's roughly about 8% is what was the Yankee t one is around 4% and the cadm to is around around 5% so if I I love that stuff lines me so if we can identify you know that the people who are at risk then we can Mabley potential you know what you use the medicine in a way where only the people who don't have these genetics are using the medicine and then you'll for the people who do have these genetics know they stick mostly to CBD I just think that that's a better approach then no just just kind of prohibiting cannabis or saying that you know we shouldn't we shouldn't use it at all or saying that it's not medicine I think

► 01:35:24

how to the same standard as any other Madison and I think that if we had an incredible medicine that work for some people and it didn't work for others than what we would do is we try to figure out why and you know I've been doing that my company's been doing that it's called an ant life you want full disclosure I am on the board and that mylifetouch.com and you know when we use these different these different strategies then we can actually reduce the overall harm and that should be another thing that we can add into the mix because for sure there's people who are definitely more predisposed to mental illness and definitely more predisposed to to psychosis brakes really fast and I'm not sure why I mean I guess it's probably genetic there's any time you mentioned you know your friend who's at least child has autism in and you said well you know I if that if that were my child of course I would want to do anything possible but I

► 01:36:24

in the last month since the booking at I've heard the other side of this again I've heard from so many parents whose children and in many cases high-functioning children college graduates Because by the Dozen people who read the book or heard about the book and end with the resources to stay involved with their kids when they have these terrible breaks who who who gone completely off the rails and the worst story that I've heard so far can you from a woman in Connecticut whose son graduated from high of a firm in the collagen in the East and your teach disadvantaged kids he had a girlfriend who was going to bed or was a pre-med trying to go to med school they move to New Mexico and for some reason the guy decided to start smoking this is 2012 and within a few months he bought everything okay the girlfriend had left he lost his job he had his first inpatient hospitalization know this is a family with money okay this is Connecticut suburban and they

► 01:37:24

have spent the last six years trying to save their son and they have failed that she told me that they've spent more than half a million dollars he was hospitalized at Harvard you know he can get the best treatment none of it made a difference to him what is some of the symptoms are so that's a good question I think he's continue to use cannabis I don't know if you use CBD but let me let me just tell you where he is now okay so he's one of these guys who has a really bad delusion his delusion is that his girlfriend has died and been replaced by robot so that's the kind of delusion that leads you to kill people and so and so this guy's been now hospital is 17 * he's he's gone he's he's on the streets of Houston she doesn't know where he is and I'll tell you you know you re beautiful boy you see the movie and you think what a beautiful boy is about a beautiful mind

► 01:38:24

is a book that came out I took a couple years ago got turned into a movie you should have them on a NIC sheff and David sheff Father and Son and the sun became a meth addict and essentially almost died he de he started smoking cannabis when he was 12 and within a couple years it at all gone completely downhill for him I'm surprised it's a pretty popular but but anyway Jamie so so you think will okay the worst thing that can happen with a parent the worst thing is your your child becomes an opioid addict can you wait for the call that he overdosed and died it turns out that that's the second worst thing the worst thing that can happen is your son that college graduate the want to be do-gooder becomes a schizophrenic living on the streets and then you're waiting for the call that he killed himself or he killed somebody else and so my my my view this is in a couple more years probably

► 01:39:24

this book is taking over my life obviously but in a couple years I'm going to be back to running now or else I'm going to be a part of my life but this woman these parents they are going to spend their lives trying to destroy the Cannabis industry and that is real well I think that would be a foolish thing to do but I think there is a real possibility that some people who have a tendency to schizophrenia could be triggered by cannabis I don't I don't think so I think it's also possible that guy would have gotten schizophrenia anyway for boys at 3:17 to 2324 CE showing any show for tomorrow morning to go to who just kind of have a decline with or Ortho cannabis

► 01:40:24

now that you've got a medical and stop that would have gone to medical school and then one semester if they just can't handle the course load and then their life's goes to shit at they think they drop out of school no one ever hear it's from the game they don't read him get get back into school that's it... Is happening all the time without him it is to have it is and it affects a certain percentage of the population regardless of cannabis use there's a lot of people out there that have schizophrenia that I've never used cannabis ever and they've gone completely you know off off the edge I don't know if you can necessarily blame cannabis for that it would be really interesting to find out if there was some form of a treatment like you were saying with CBD that could counteract that has been shown in early-stage studies to have some Modern impact on the numbers that I really isn't that strong

► 01:41:24

but I do think that if I were a researcher in schizophrenia I would be looking at the Endo cannabinoid 6 a.m. to look at this again I look at it from the 80s iconic that we have out there are not good terrible side effects and most of them do have some initial Bennett benefit but after two to three years is almost no Banner one right and they have as you said really bad side effects weight gain metabolic disturbances like people want to get off I'm so if you have something like CBD that doesn't have any of those side effects of course as a commission you're going to want to try it right because you know that gender tools that you have are not really that affected yes right so you know what CBD Kent should definitely be utilized for people who have psychosis and schizophrenia talked about life changes like things that happened badly New Life losing your job losing your girlfriend that's in the family can contribute these brakes with some folks

► 01:42:24

but psychedelic drugs can as well I mean it's a fact that I'm waiting for some people psychedelic drugs have tremendous benefits for PTSD quitting alcohol quitting hard drugs is a lot of people that have used mushrooms MDMA for PTSD is a huge thing that map's is studying right now but you can't deny that there is other people in the well documented that have taken LSD that have taken psilocybin and taking in large doses then gone and never recovered and that's why I to get it was maybe it was a mechanic who is on and you guys were saying that like you know we need to use psychedelic Madison's but we need to use them properly and that's the same way with with with cannabis as well as my I consider cannabis a psychedelic. Psychedelic in his rest and benefits of that and you know we need to take these out the rest until he's out the benefits and make sure that people are putting need to make sure that people are informed and they get the entire picture

► 01:43:24

you know what does your book have some truth in it yes of course it does but does it tell the whole truth absolutely not right and that's the message that you know I think people should be hearing people shouldn't be hearing just part of the truth they should be hearing the whole truth then again you don't like in your book like you compare that the mat Mexico and in India right and you know I talked it to German Lopez on the phone about this and you know who you talked to Isaac answers right and he said that so so Isaac Campos so you don't use the guy who who basically it was told the story of how how in Mexico know people are blaming marijuana tours for blaming marijuana on causing psychosis during the early 1900s and then there's some evidence as well in India at that time so I was kind of made the connection yo nine thousand miles apart and what they're both saying the same thing but you know what he said that you don't you did misinterpret the evidence on it right and end in German told me that on the on the

► 01:44:24

and I mean all the canvas that was used in Mexico at that time was in you'll really marginalized environment and then when you look at the India study you know that they said and I know that your address in your book because I did read your book so I bought your box out you hit someone like I said you don't you dare address in and the part on India that yeah you know some of the report was wrong but I mean the fact is that all almost a lot of those cases in India where we're actually attributed to alcohol are opiates are other things and then the other thing in in in Mexico is that was in those varmints so you know basically what I'm kind of getting a hair is like you know that the National Academy of Sciences and Engineering in a date or disagree with how you interpreted their findings and then rub the people disagree how you interpreted their fine but this is only one of the 60s

► 01:45:24

numbers I get that but if we asked other members I think they would all say the same thing because out wouldn't you be upset if someone just pulled it one part of your book and then left out all the other parts of me I would think that would be a huge disservice to my work I would not want I would not have put what and put in a ton of effort into something and then for someone to only have no ditches just to pick up the part that new episode for today in 2017 and nobody and nobody did for two years and suddenly people are paying attention to what I do pretty happy about that but what was talking about is in the first chapter book with I guess you haven't read and I really should have a cop before being stupid of me I got a copy my back

► 01:46:22

so this is fascinates me the the British you know they colonize India and they set up what they called Lunatic Asylum was really Psychiatric Hospital sort of very primitive really initially for soldiers in the Indian army and they were run by British doctors and what these doctors really as early as like the late 1850s and 1860s noticed was that all the people who showed up in these hospitals were showing up with canopy what they called ganja actually it is called ganja or bong which is very weak preparation of a of a basically the Indian hemp to serve low grade cannabis and so and so they started counting and they raised the 20 to 30% of the people who were coming to asylums we're heavy cannabis users and that was way more than alcohol is more than opium and its really fascinating doctor named George Francis William Youmans wrote a book in 1908 and he

► 01:47:22

and it is amazing to hear how he described schizophrenia how he describes cannabis how he describes a cases of violence around canvas it's like it's like any psychiatrist today so many forensic psychiatrist like my wife would would like everything in the book Woodring completely true and it was so fascinating to me to stumble on this and realize this is more than a hundred years so could we agree that there are some people were cannabis is not a good idea absolutely I think we all agree we're also agree that some people can eat peanuts are absolutely no more dangerous than 7,600 people die from peanuts

► 01:48:22

somebody's got to do the work play the why you saying that then because I've looked at enough data to tell me you think marijuana is causing homicides causes paranoia and psychosis in people are paranoid psychosis are huge risk for homicide in schizophrenia multiple studies homicide schizophrenia is a 20 x 20 x Joe Jamie I sent you a documents yesterday I mean there's boost multiple studies that they show that your marijuana laws are not associated with with any type of violence marijuana laws which are correlated with murder so many signs are not clearly they're trigger Staffing Solutions act triggers because of the paranoia and delusions and you think that someone's out to get you and they're not

► 01:49:22

the numbers okay so the numbers are if you are if you have a diagnosis of schizophrenia you are a 20 times as likely to commit homicide as somebody who's healthy now it's actually worse than what the National Alliance for mental illness and mental illness advocacy groups hate talking about this why they obviously because it's so what they say and this is true is if you have a diagnosis but you're taking your antipsychotics even though the side effect might be unpleasant you're in treatment you're you're you're not using recreational drugs your risk for violence isn't that high it's not that much higher than a healthy person okay and you know fortunately healthy people don't commit murder that often

► 01:50:06

the problem is if you if you think about the math for half a second if there's this one group of people who don't have a very high risk for Murder World Series violence who because they're not using because they're on antipsychotics it means that the excess risk in the people who are using and whose untruth psychosis is untreated it must be spectacular Lehigh and the numbers bear that out so so there's a really good study from last year 2018 it's small group of patients in in Switzerland Switzerland is the percent of the people who were using cannabis and had psychosis over a three-year period committed violence in that group of people that's mostly 20-something man is a study here and I just sent it to you Jamie and it's it's titled risk factors for violence in psychosis a systemic review and meta-analysis of 110 studies so you know that's it's it's quite a few studies okay

► 01:51:06

let me just just read part of it out of to sew violence was strongly a source with the history of polysubstance abuse don't associate with diagnosis of culminated substance use disorder and recent substance misuse and Marley associate with the history of alcoholism is to use as a history of substance misuse recent alcohol misuse recent drug misuse and a history of drug abuse it was unclear if there was an association between violence and history of cannabis masseuse so again this is 110 studies they very carefully looked at all of the different risk factors as what could trigger bosses let me finish Alex and what they said again it was unclear if there was an association between balance and a history of cannabis misuse rice that's a hundred and ten studies Sol cannabis use in their is going to get locked in with polysubstance use light because a lot of people use are going to be using Other Drug substance mean

► 01:52:06

alcohol cannabis exactly something else was down to have some significant statistical significance minor without looking at it I can't push back as hard as I would like but I can tell you is that I have many studies in the book that show the cannabis use is associated with violence in people with psychosis and more broadly is associated with violence in the general population in large studies in studies of high school students and bullying in studies of people who were vacationing in Ibiza in in in studies of young man in China and the UK there are big studies out there that show cannabis use is associated with violence

► 01:52:57

Ibiza Ibiza trivia just said it send some dick Terrier what is Royal person had a lisp right is not how it all started in Spain pronounce words was directly affected by this one person apparently so this this correlation between people that have schizophrenia and using cannabis how do you is schizophrenia a diagnosis it's purely based on Behavior basically I do brain scan it's basically how you behave and what you tell the doctor about how you're right, rise or it's very subjective

► 01:53:57

this mean it's no different than depression really I mean you just just asking someone serious questions and then you will based upon that which is very subjective thing you're going to make you a clinical decision where is when it's like a blood test like a sewing Eno passes a certain amount of hemoglobin A1c on depending on which chart you're looking at then you're going to call that person pre-diabetic and diabetic but unfortunately just don't have those objective measurements and again that's why you know Alex was saying earlier that that you don't die yet they couldn't really figure out your how many people in the United States had has schizophrenia and I understand that but at the same time to I mean it's okay to to adjust your the way that you diagnose someone over the course of the years and you learn things because you know you can easily say that almost everyone has some type of mental illness and I mean people should understand that you're the seven different basic human emotions and I talked as for its there's there's anger is content

► 01:54:56

discuss the sphere sadness surprise & Happiness at 7 so you know depending on which way surprise goes I mean 6 out of those 7rr negative right because we're wired to a basically detect threats so you know we were making you know the all these diagnoses I think we have to be careful because it was some people call themselves to price and some people calling themselves anxious when really you know they're just not dealing with basic human emotions that they need to understand and I need to deal with like people are getting angry about being angry or like depressed about being depressed did you feel one of these emotions just kind of sit with it and just kind of reflect on it and I think Young that it's a much much better way to kind of kind of tea to tea things out button you want to come back to to my original point I think that you're more people are understanding that you know we don't just need to give out of pill for everything in that you're everyone shouldn't just be labeled as having a mental health diagnosis because if things just keep on going the way they

► 01:55:56

yo what was the bite by 24 it's going to be like fifty percent of people are going to have like a mental health disorder by people just need to understand that life is hard you got to deal with these motion sometimes it's not that big of a deal and that's why I thought by Jordan Peterson because you know he's he's he's kind of tough on people and he said that is 4 years a long time long time with salt and drinks water and push back a little bit because I think people as controversial as the book has been about about cannabis and psychosis this violence issues even more controversial and obviously

► 01:56:56

Trump for fair number people that doesn't really doesn't think of the stereotype

► 01:57:02

experience cannabis use right so I think I think alcohol is a really interesting comparison to what he have to go National Adam we were talking about marijuana use increases violent Behavior 50 or study finds casual link between cannabis and subsequent violent Behavior new research published online in advance of print with a journalist like psychological medicine includes the continued use of cannabis causes violent Behavior as a direct result of changes in brain function that are caused by smoking weed over many years researchers have long debated a possible link between the use of marijuana and violent crime and contrast alcohol math and many other illegal drugs

► 01:58:02

melamine effects of cannabis seemed unsuited to promoting violent behavior however Ample Ample previous research has linked marijuana used to increase violent Behavior the sticky problem and such studies are the American founding factors co-founding factors involved in interpreting this correlation correlation between marijuana use and violent Behavior are causally linked or instead the to Associated or instead the two are associated to some other factors such as socioeconomic status personality traits are made of the variables that are related to the propensity to use marijuana the issues the study came from 411 boys were born in 1953 in London 97% of which were Caucasian and all of them are raising two

► 01:59:02

households so so you know I think the alcohol comparison is again a good one because everybody who's ever been in a bar at 9 p.m. and gone back at 2 a.m. knows that alcohol disinhibited people right it causes fights right it makes people are already has a lot of fucking to does.

► 01:59:31

Sometimes it's okay but at the same time everybody knows that you can have a drink at you know you can have a beer the Backyard BBQ you can have a conversation social lubricant all that good stuff and you might even have a problem with okay but it's mostly they're sitting at home drinking Scotch watching baseball until they fall asleep that night that's obviously not a healthy way to use alcohol but it doesn't make them violent but we know on a population basis that alcohol causes violence to causes drunk driving it causes problems and it said that in the study that that I could earlier but it said that alcohol again they they didn't there soy cannabis they weren't sure

► 02:00:30

this is again I would like to read the paper that you're quoting from because I have so much other research but here's here's what I'm saying about cannabis okay cannabis for a lot of people yeah they can just smoke it and its people see how many people tweeted it me the only thing I attacked was a bowl of nachos right and so and so that's true for some people that can be sent with alcohol as well that the cannabis laws of actually decrease crime and I looking at study right now

► 02:01:05

even though for many people cannabis isn't going to cause violence that doesn't mean it can't cause violence in some people especially or at least could be affected this could be a factor especially with a kind of violence that I am talking about and then I write about in the book which is again so alcohol it may be makes argument into a bra it makes a bra into something or somebody picks up a stick it makes that into something where somebody pulls out of Nike it escalates cannabis is different cannabis causes paranoia and psychosis and it certainly causes of things temporarily even if it doesn't cause them permanently showing in reality that could lead to you doing something terrible and it's usually to somebody you're not actually fighting with it's a family member that are basically innocent family members who are just in the way when somebody loses touch with reality and literally thinks like this my 85 year old grandmother is going to kill me

► 02:02:05

so I better stabbed her to death first that happens it happens a lot and if you look at the amount of violence that people with psychosis command on a population level bassist it looks like people with schizophrenia come in about 6 to 10% of all the murders in this country and it looks like people to serve a broader different more broadly defined psychosis again bipolar with psychosis other psychotic conditions temporary psychosis they might be responsible for as much as 20% of the violent crime in the United States that's a lot of violent crime and what I'm saying is that it is quite clear that drug use mediates that violent crime in other words if you're not using you can keep your impulses in check but when you do use you become dangerous so when we're talking about biological variability if we factor in schizophrenia essentially what you're saying is that there are people that have schizophrenia that don't commit violence but that they're much more likely to commit violence if you add some sort of Psych medication whether it's

► 02:03:05

I wanna whether it's something else it perturbs reality for them particularly marijuana stay in a stimulant because they both are cocaine and exactly so when you get that you get paranoid from two sources and you get the only good thing about cannabis from the music kind of knocked down a little bit but bring them right back. So is it fair to say that what we don't know is that we don't know whether or not these people like this young man with his terrible story for Connecticut yes we don't know whether or not he would have become a schizophrenic and an exhibit the symptoms without the marijuana we really don't know what we do know he did with it that's that's correct and and what I would also say is that for somebody like that and this is quite clear F on a population level basis with people with schizophrenia as you've got to discourage them from using really have to be described it brings out the worst Bryan

► 02:04:05

am I from The New York Times so every time there's a hurricane people some people on the right side where you can't prove that global warming cause that one hurricane that would have happened anyway any and they're right you can't prove it and you can't prove that any one case of psychosis was caused by marijuana but when you look at the big studies at the population level data the association is really clear and everything went the same way and synthetic cannabinoids K2 and spice those can clearly produce psychosis in people and people with psychosis tend to slip back into it if they use at some point you got to start the saviors of why is everything go the same way he is also a personal friend and I really didn't think about this guy but there's another personal friend that I know that is a martial arts instructor that had a psychotic break became schizophrenic and he's a regular marijuana user in the people around him Associated that with that and in fact people that are regular cannabis users were trying to get him to stop using marijuana if you're close to being on the edge and use a little bit

► 02:05:05

cannabis for sure it can seem pretty heavy smoker overtime I do not know because we don't live in the same area anymore but he got really heavily really heavily medicated and did some really crazy shit and want to be hospitalized and this was not the case before I mean whatever it was that triggered him I mean it when I was around him when he was younger I would have said he's a total normal guy and I would have never saw that coming he was a heavy marijuana user heavy heavy I don't I don't know how he's doing now I hope he's okay but we're in a we have mutual friends and he became a schizophrenic and and you know you will see your cases like that but you know when you do look at a lot of the larger data on on cannabis and violence I mean it's just it's just not there like there's lots of data that suggests that

► 02:06:05

medical marijuana laws for example of can actually have a decrease in an overall two Nobel talk I mean that the children because of the psychotic break that's right and those studies are really bad place that you can cry again. Stayed at home marijuana use does not induce violent crime in a link between marijuana use and property clock Prime our thing itself with people that aren't schizophrenic probably doesn't induce violent crime but with people that are schizophrenic or people were a trigger schizophrenia it could potentially induced by on crime and violence although he did do a violent thing wasn't to a person I think I think we have to be really careful because there's no just like with diet just like with the food

► 02:07:05

and if you don't like her allergies all these different variabilities when it comes to human beings I think we have to be really really careful about lumping all people together when it comes to how they get affected by various compounds the state level if you want a place that has been criticized legalized first which is Alaska Washington Oregon Colorado if you look at 2013 and you compare that to 2017 murders and AG assault violent crime or up substantially in those States and substantially more than in the US about selling marijuana is the people that have always been selling marijuana been criminals when you make things legal in a state the people that were selling it illegal flock to that stay in that that's been so good to be true that there's a there is a direct

► 02:08:05

relation between people being robbed that there was also a significant problem with credit cards and Banks where everyone was having to do all the transactions with cash it was a lot of violence is associated with marijuana in regards to that and also massive increase in population not really against cannabis in some ways it's because he feels that if we have medical marijuana laws that especially the states that are that that that are border states that the crimes going to drop drops out tremendously and it has dropped they did a study last year and it dropped over ski passes in Colorado and it dropped 7% in Arizona so he he said that the murder rate did not demonstrate that marijuana legalization increases bonds and then it may have actually demonstrated that legalization slightly decrease pain and he thinks about

► 02:09:05

the reason that there was an increase in the murder rate particularly in Washington is because there is a large income gap they say a wash and has a 10th largest income gap in the United States and that's why I change out the expanse the murderer could question him so I haven't I didn't get to speak with Benjamin about this thing that has been shown to increase mental illness like we talked about it and can definitely increase font size when you have an income gap and shifted that directly correlates to the legalization of marijuana because during the same because during the same. The income gap particularly in Washington and increase so he feels that you're so he feels that that it's it's likely more to that I mean I mean I understand but I mean you have to respect this guy menu

► 02:10:05

this is maddening to me okay okay violent crime in those four states increased more rapidly than in the US. Between 2013 and 2017 supposed to be considered conjecture side no credible data exists it supports the significant association between increase violent crime and marijuana legalization furthermore study suggests that so far violent crime decreases and states with legalized medical marijuana until New research credibly suggest otherwise they claim that a demonstrative Bowl link between the two exist will remain classified as pause just not true I know it's Snopes okay and I know we trust Snopes I don't trust him at my OK Google where are the sources and what's wrong with them Oregon Washington Colorado Alaska

► 02:11:05

there are 450 murders in those four states there are thirty thousand a consult. Okay 2017 Oregon Washington Colorado Alaska their 620 murders in those four states as an almost 40% increase their 38,000 Angus off with a 25% increase if you adjust for population you still get big increased in Denver 2018 almost seventy murders that were about 35 in 2013 Seattle 27th 2018 there were 3435 murders they were I think 19 in 2013 these increases are real okay they now can we say that marijuana legalization caused those increases we cannot get there are other possibilities and your what are those well one Pascoag first of all population increase it's also possible that these states quote unquote imported violent crime another words that you got a population of transients coming in in part because marijuana was legal

► 02:12:05

those people are likely to commit violent crime and on top of that organized crime people that are selling absolutely there may have been some people for exporting to to Nebraska to Minnesota to other states is crime associated with that but what I am saying is it unequivocally unequivocally the people who said legalization is going to decrease Mama crime and people did say that and Cory Booker on 2010-17 set it he said that it actually had decrease pain a crime in states that legalized and he didn't say it randomly he said it when he was introducing legislation to legalize marijuana on the federal level those people are wrong and they need to stop saying it I know and by the way that Oregon Economist use

► 02:12:47

he used the wrong data set for his charts okay he used I use the real numbers okay the FBI homicide numbers he use numbers that include justifiable homicide no police I got that right there is the FBI reported that the murder rate went up 1% from 2015 to 2016 as compared to the Nationwide which one of my son .9% and then it dropped by 11.6% between 2016 and 2003 is our address numbers FBI number the reading act know what you're talkin about the numbers are clear okay I use I'm reading them right now in 2016 release of FBI uniform crime reports from Oregon Oregon you're not reading the reports in the United States you're picking one state for women showing something to report that has legalized medical cannabis

► 02:13:47

country race is it a similar incomes for debtors and a Gasol crime rate so the four categories of violent crime murder AGG assault robbery and rape rapist Oregon sideways the last year's robberies arcsafe gone down its murders in Agra salts that are interpersonal violent crime okay just to go back to this organ accounts because this mad he used a data set that is not the standard data set to report murder rates difference he use the data set that includes justifiable homicides meaning I'm in my house you come in I shoot you and kill you the police don't charge me with anything from and Police homicide

► 02:14:47

impacted by cannabis use cops are not smoking when they're on patrol light bulb and if you are using your very unlikely to have your murder viewed as justifiable homicide the fair comparison is the base murder rate in the US and that's the number that I used and I am telling you I mean I know these numbers I sleep and I wake up with these number cannabis at the for cannabis legal states on a per-capita basis crime murders rose 31% on a per-capita basis in those four states over the 2013 2017. Maybe I'm sorry I said 31 minutes 29% so maybe I say I woke up with any way for the US it's 18% 29% vs 18% that's the Gap Band I am not saying that I know that cannabis legalization cause that Gap what I'm saying is people need to stop claiming that cannabis legalization reduces violent crime it in

► 02:15:46

has increased in the Universal the increase was it almost then I think more income Washington and and what's also interesting if you're if you really want to go into the numbers is the gap actually widened year by year so that's sort of what you would expect if this is the result of a psycho mimetic affect another it's a psychosis cause and effect because cannabis doesn't cause psychosis right away people break down but if it's causing heavy use and some of those people are sliding into in a paranoia and psychosis you sort of expect the Gap to increase over time and that's what's happened

► 02:16:26

okay so I'm going to go back again to the Netherlands okay because they've had no cannabis legalized forever and they have one fifth of the homicide rate that the United States does right but they also have a lower cannabis use that's true 1111 V I mean it's still it's pretty drastic overall and then again you know Alex and I appreciate you talking about the correlation between when you're in a place like the Netherlands at the has a long and accepted history of use people are accustomed to it so I think things kind of even out I think one of the things that we're dealing with with the United States is people that have just they don't they don't have a long history of experience and it becomes legal and then they use it and maybe some of them like we're talkin about don't have a tolerance for it have too much and like

► 02:17:26

I was talking about my friend who's like this really counted that the one who had an edible and became suicidal and just fucked up for weeks that is very confident very articulate very intelligent is not a not a weirdo. A. Transient screen extremely successful you know I think there are there are variables that we need to take into consideration there certain human beings that exhibit a pattern of behavior that's directly correlated to a cannabis use that I don't experience so if I could say for my own personal biases that that's bullshit that's nothing it doesn't do anything I've been smoking for years the new shitt will you probably don't have one of those three genes that we were talking about me also to you know don't overuse or are you have some type of you know I'm legitimacy as as to why you are you are using it and you're one I want to keep going with this but at the end of show I think that we should make some type of like recommendation

► 02:18:26

for people just because I hate when you only have this big mule 3 Hour podcast event at the end of it if it's just like you guys just be safe you know I fix the Pirates win control of the podcast with with with with Crestor and Joel right but at the end of it was just sort of like hey guys don't eat the American died on data on the other person wants to know if you've thought of somebody who I'll bet if you think about it you'll think of more people maybe but those are the big ones and like I said my friend who is a martial arts instructor was a pretty significant issue with a lot of our friends were trying to figure out what was wrong with him before he

► 02:19:26

give me sending me these videos that didn't make any sense and I was like what in the fuck is this like I explained to you more often are above so I don't have to go out this guy but what will the all a lot of people that were close to him we're really seriously concerned and now it is it something that would have happened anyway I don't know don't know how I was 20 you know that's right around the age so that's what it is a little bit late it's it's below like they've they have done so he's like blow 18 is worse since they blow 25 explo 15 is worth the 18 like the younger you go the worse in physics that's good that's good I don't know if I'm not an expert on the subject but it's if it's because of this assembly called pruning that we go through so everyone goes

► 02:20:26

it's basically your adolescence you're going to drop off some some weak neural connections to kind of pick up some stronger once you know it's the best way to come to explain it when you use cannabis you can potentially XLR8 stop process and then because you accelerate that process you don't get those good neural connections and then you'll people unfortunately you've developed things like like psychosis and schizophrenia so you know that's kind of weird where they were the issue lies so you're one thing that I am your very happy that were talking about 900 out to be too is that and we want it discuss the benefits in Ennis podcast make sure that people understand that you know I believe that marijuana is medicine that's an excellent medicine but the other thing go to as we do want to mitigate the risk because there are real risks out there so you like I do appreciate you know I was talking about Adolescent and making sure that they do stay away from cannabis

► 02:21:26

in all these cases is a case File sometimes the kids started using when he was 11 and you know it's like that kid never had a chance disadvantaged backgrounds anyway but you know they're using by 11 and it's 16 they put it you know put a gun to somebody's head and pull the trigger

► 02:21:47

the pre-adolescent in early teen used we got to do everything we can to stuff the problem is I like if you if you smoke pot in junior high likes a seven eight nine like you're probably going to smoke pot in high school like that's the nemean that's what I saw when we went out when I was growing up and you don't even when I was home for Christmas for it for a few days like Yeah couple my friends even talked about you some people that we knew you smoked onapattin High School in Lake now like their there they're crazier than not really doing too too much you know so you do have to be careful with that we're dealing with a lot of ignorance in the current when it comes to biological variability right we we we don't really understand how a lot of these different things affect people including like just diet and what what what causes depression like how much how much of what we constitute or what we just decided depression is inflammation of poor gut health there's a lot of variables is it a lot of them marijuana is absolute

► 02:22:47

in one of those variables and again I don't have an issue with it I like it I love the stuff but it doesn't it doesn't fuck with me but I'm also honest and so I see these people were it's pretty obvious to me that something's going on and that marijuana is not a good idea for them and I just think you don't like I said in the past I myself have been guilty of using this the sort of a blanket description of it as being a positive influence and then it's a good thing for people I don't think it's a good thing for everybody know it's definitely not a good thing for everybody and it's definitely not a good thing for the people who have those genetics that I discussed earlier and you know also to like you know if you you need to have some type of self-awareness like the people who know don't do well with cannabis you know you shouldn't have to be to have your friends tell you that he came in like you're not doing too well with this you should have got yourself like but that's hard for people

► 02:23:47

cess to be objective heard from a lot of people who used heavily and seeing other people who is heavily in last month and I think I know it and you know what the most cogent argument and again I'm I'm not it unites with a handful of times in college and I forgot I don't think I'd be comfortable using high THC cannabis now knowing what I know but anyways so the people the people the most got some momentum going to smoke through it I'm going to smoke so much that I'm almost comfortable being paranoid and I think that's a dangerous thing to do to your mind cuz you're counting on being able to stay

► 02:24:47

back from that and stop using your that's a that's a silly way of looking at it I think that some of what we call paranoia just normal paranoia is hypersensitivity and Hyper awareness and awareness to a lot of things that you were putting off in the back your head because in order to function as a normal person get through this life you can't really be aware of everything otherwise if you look you are in space okay we are on a gigantic ball that's spinning a thousand miles an hour hurling through Infinity this is this is reality take us out thin layer of gas is protecting us from everything that's flying around in our solar system and the universe is infinite

► 02:25:47

hi Kathy Aunt mean imagine people do live to an infinite number where will I see a fucking son is dying and going to freak out about that it's all relative right so there is only so much I really can't think about in some of what paranoia is is this hyper awareness of all these variables that you really haven't haven't considered and then also we were talking about before things that can be beneficial to the hyper awareness of how you communicate with people maybe you could have done a better job of that maybe you you came in hot maybe you were upset about something else and you ran into them you already two 7 and they brought you to it and it was totally unnecessary with a normal situation you would have only been a tattoo that have those things are real and sometimes marijuana helps highlight all the errors in your way I think you can be a tool but my description of it is like any other tool like a hammer you can build a house with a hammer or you can just hit yourself in the dick if you're fucking crazy and this this is something that I think that we should consider when we're discussing almost any psychedelic medicine and I think

► 02:26:47

I really do believe that marijuana psychedelic and I don't even think it's a mild one especially when it's inedible form I don't think it's mild at all yeah I mean that there is some people that come in to my office for example in like just when I meet them like after a 1 or 2 minutes I was just I just got to decide my head this person's not using THC like this this person is notice anxious yeah it's just a feeling of they're not really there not someone who can just sit and kind of like be by himself you want to just kind of gave me the impression that you know that they're not going to do well with with cannabis because if they had any type of change in their in their psyche they're going to see that as bad as bad you know you got it when you're using cannabis you you have to be so on and who who knows that okay I didn't get a little bit of maybe paranoia now or at least my psyche is going to change a little bit I am using no psychoactive

► 02:27:47

and not be able to freak out right but some people you know I know that if they use a little bit of THC they probably would have freaked out they probably would have a bad experience with who are very very fearful now the other side of that coin though is that if you CBD and like we discussed earlier that could decrease learn fear right so so that's so you know that's something that's really helpful for those patients but you know I do agree that we have to be careful about using High cheap sea and in certain groups of people for sure

► 02:28:22

I think one of the it's great to hear it. One of the real disappointment for me with this book has been really the biggest the DPA the drug policy Alliance in that some of the other Advocates and I want to say that I don't understand correlation and causation and let's let's acknowledge and that's true whether it's legal or not and let's acknowledge that probably in 2020 certainly if there's a Democrat elected most of democratic candidates have said they would be a favor legalization there will be legalized cannabis probably be the law in the United States okay and let's talk about what we're going to tell people who are using aunt and you know I had this round table with executive director and some other people this is if this about a month ago you know shortly after the book came out and I propose what I thought we were really Common Sense warnings and she basically wouldn't agree and she grew to like one of the five of them

► 02:29:21

when is your proposed date with stuff like if cannabis if you have a family history of severe mental illness you probably should not use cannabis you probably you should not use can't or try to delay your use until you're in your twenties I think was one of them and one of them I thought I couldn't believe I was getting pushed back on this was with something like if if you're having strange thoughts especially paranoid thoughts will using cannabis the drug may be increasing your risk for severe mental illness and you should not use it only if you want up in the ER even once I just don't understand why they don't care right we know if you know what if tobacco is Thomas one thing is that when you're selling a product you will sell it to people even if it kills them okay but I don't understand why these people were supposed to be

► 02:30:19

science trimming and supposed to be thinking about the greater good won't agree to reasonable discussions about the what the warning should be on this I think you did yourself a slight disservice by not including some of the beneficial aspects of cannabis I understand your perspective I understand why you were doing that because you really wanted to highlight the dangerous but I think that's one of the things that they can point to and they say you cherry-pick data but I think that also it's really important to when you're having these kind of conversations to have a long one I mean this we've really covered the full gamut right and I think that's probably why the reason why Bill Maher didn't want to have you on cuz he's got five of the people on the panel everybody's talking over everybody and you have 5 minutes to get your case out and I don't think it's possible I think this is a really this is a long complicated discussion that has to do with biological variabilities it has to do with unique situations with human human psychology the way the brain functions whether or not it can act as a trigger to schizophrenia where it's someone named

► 02:31:19

I've ever experienced a trailer without it maybe they just became a long distance Runner and they would have lived a healthy life with no psychotic breaks at all we don't really know and unfortunately once someone goes off the deep end we might never find out I think we have to be very careful in saying we know what it does we know what anything cuz cuz you don't know you know what it does for you you know some some people can eat fish you know they they they need fucking shellfish in their throats eases up we had there's so many variables when it comes to the human body whether it's your genetic or you know what you've eaten in the past and how it's shaped your gut biome there's so much that we don't know and don't understand about how we interact with all the various substances that we take your body what one thing though to that you know I know that in your book Alex's that you said that you didn't think the Cannabis can help the opioid epidemic is that true

► 02:32:18

good idea for people who are at risk of opioid use okay so you know I have seen a lot of people in my practice come off of opioids with cannabis abuse and there are various medical studies at the new show that people who use cannabis Kane Kane replace opioids with with the candy and the really the best way to get off opiates is ibogaine and ibogaine with just the repeat rate of addiction of people try it again afterwards is really low I think I know one of the things that is just the accessibility the affordability like I've never administered ibogaine before I was kind of medication I've never tried personally but the people that I know that I've tried it have had spectacular results especially people that have had problems with pills in fact a friend of mine my friend Ed clay he opened up a clinic in Mexico based on his

► 02:33:18

interaction with with pills he had an injury he got hooked on the pills and really had a fucking problems went down to Mexico and went through and I were gained session and cured him just whacked it out you did literally changes the way your brain interfaces with your addiction is not it's not simply a prospective enhancer it changes how you your body and your brain deal with with opiates I think Tim Ferriss is actually talked about that before you as well but I mean I've seen it in my practice and there are medical study so I don't think that we should throw out the fact that you'll cannabis can can help the opioid crisis and then also to do you want to look at it from a clinical perspective right so we know that opioids can kill people right cuz the axon the brain stem words with your cannabis doesn't so you know what you might be saying you're just substituting one for the other and you'll sometimes that is true but if you're using a less harmful substance

► 02:34:18

you know it's me that's like a huge Wing right so if someone has to drink you know 12 Beers a night versus smoking like one joint man that's that's awesome I mean you look at all these clinics are you look at like methadone clinics mean what are they doing they're they're trying to get people off one substance to new acceptance that is little bit less harmful and I think that when you when you use cannabis your it can be effective for for opioids it can also be affected for it for benzodiazepines and four other medicines as well so you know I had to be awesome if everyone would just you'll feel happy and great all the time by just exercising in a nutrition and your that's what I advocate and that's what I try to do personally and that's what I try to do or say to a patient's all the time but I understand all that you know sometimes life is hard sometimes you'll fit things hit you know you have yet crisis in your life you have your personal crisis that can you throw off your mental health and then you have you get into a car accident to you

► 02:35:18

I didn't you could being really severe pain and and in those times you know sometimes diet exercise meditation doing all the right things just isn't quite enough and you know I think that it's great that we have cannabis for those situations because it does seem to be your very effective and has less side effects compared to some of the other matters as compared to some the other medicines that we have traditionally used and you know even though you on talking about opiates and and deaths here we can also talk about NSAIDs right like non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug so you know these drugs can also you don't wreak havoc on your GI system I saw one study actually at Willow Rhonda Patrick to reload said that if you use NSAIDs it was really short I got to look it up again it was like 2 weeks it can decrease your your gonadotropin which consummate your testosterone level by 25% and I'm not no to we should talk about I can't believe God talk about this but

► 02:36:18

Buicks can drastically inhibit your your testosterone production right which is a huge thing for depression because I've had guys come in to me before that if you're really really depressed you're skipping a small amount of testosterone a man throughout their antidepressants and they're Off to the Races they're doing great so you are we creating a lot of people who are who are depressed because they're using opiates and a testosterone levels are low and you'll fermented mean having low testosterone so horrible to you and your libido goes you know you're going to have low motivation and you're not going to feel as well you're not going to do things so you know if you're giving someone a medicine at that but nails they're at their testosterone levels down that's going to really you know wreck it wreck wreck havoc on their mental health I just want to make a note to cuz Ben Greenfield to again I really respect I like that guy lot you know it was talking a little bit with you about testosterone and and

► 02:37:18

cannabis and how can drop it so I think there was three studies I saw done on a human's and two of them know that no statistical difference and then drop into sauce and one study the other study noted a small statistical difference so you know I think that you wanted may drop your testosterone levels a little bit but it's not going to hurt you or substantially I'm dropping so just so people people know know that because I know that comes up all the time you know the dumb anti-drug Advocates like boobies. That was not right there's no. There's no stomach not feeling so good about Risperdal cause of a different issue the issue of

► 02:38:18

this is a gateway drug is a Huntress I cleared the argument is water clear that cannabis use often times precedes other drug use whether it's opioids cocaine and Other Drugs now one argument and Gateway is that if it's illegal you got to buy it from your friendly neighborhood dealer he might have access to heroin or cocaine and other drugs and So eventually maybe you decide to try one of those other drugs legalized they wanted to create an Avenue for people use cannabis that wasn't connected to Other Drugs Yuri might like it and you might want to try other and take the intoxicating substances and it might prime your brain and then the third possibility really is that they're just some people Risk Takers out there right they use they're going to use

► 02:39:18

cannabis they're going to gamble there going to be easier to access other drugs that are probably going to try cannabis first so it's not really that it's just a cannabis is for Curious people but what's your thoughts on what I was saying I'm just going to go back to the name report right I mean I mean you quote these people is in your book you also this committee couldn't find sufficient data Thomas training association between cannabis series ignition opioid use they found no compelling evidence to support the gateway drug Theory so good in your box so there's been more research done since then but what is an environmental Factor work again if you're buying from somebody who's got any access other illegal drugs at the same time

► 02:40:15

getting high feels good and maybe want to try other drugs and at the same time you're just a risk-taker okay what is what no

► 02:40:23

if we ever said until about the last five years is that cannabis could be an off-ramp for opiates okay that's a really bad idea first of all Need opioids for pain relief cannabis is not a good enough pain reliever it's like alcohol is a mild pain reliever it's not strong of your cannabis and the book at the state level data is not as good if you want to really figure out what's happening to an individual the best way to do that is to follow that individual and there's a really good paper that came out in 2017 after the name reports they didn't have it that shows that people who used cannabis in 2001 is based on a large National study in the US were three times as likely to be using opioids three years later and the other thing that people on the legalization side don't ever talk about is who are the two countries that have the most cannabis use in the

► 02:41:23

the u.s. and Canada are the two who are the two countries that have by far the worst opioid epidemic the US and Canada okay but there's a real issue with that because the United States is also the only country of the New Zealand it allows pharmaceutical companies advertise documentary The Oxycontin Express but the way Florida used to be structured where they didn't have a database then you could just let us hope you and ADHD drugs benzo problem are deluding themselves what do you think of that so we can you repeat the question again

► 02:42:23

certainly it's come down a little bit more last couple years but you know there's a special place in hell for those guys but not it's not just opiate sweet prescribed how many benzos we've got too many add drugs we probably prescribe ssris we prescribe too much in this country I agree I agree with that is another example of us looking for a drug to solve our problem but what I'm okay again just from a clinical perspective you know I can't just rely on on diet and exercise for all my patients I have to use other tools and a game like everyone here in this room like we're all pretty healthy I don't have a bad back or you know I don't have a mental health diagnosis or anything going on so you'll have to look at patients that they're coming to me right so the way I see it is that you know we just mentioned it a bunch of other drugs do antidepressants and phetamines Oli Sykes the things you'll cannabis and again you know I'm going to separate the cheat C and CBD

► 02:43:22

it's incredible medicine and it doesn't kill people right so as a condition you know that that's so comforting for me to know that every single night I go to bed I killed zero people I know that right so if that's really really comforting for me to know also I feel you know we just talking about amphetamines were just talking about do ssris I feel that cannabis your particular the CBD component can actually be more effective know that's what I've seen a lot of my practice and other people have seen that as well so you might think that we need to need to take that into consideration when were using all these dogs in and out selling things that you're saying you know they're quite young adorable and and in a lot of things like researchers say you know quite adorable as well and annual day they feel that they can you tell clinicians you'll give him really good advice but they're not the ones in the trenches they're not the ones in front of the people they're not the ones that the have to have to chat with patients you know I have a notch

► 02:44:22

station to do something for my patients to make them better I really feel and we just listen a bunch of drugs that cannabis is a really really effective tool and and it doesn't kill anybody so you don't because of that you are going to I'm going to keep keep using it but like I said I'm always looking for other drugs I'm always looking for other alternates that to also help my patients but I think that you know using cannabis it is is really effective tool for a lot of clinicians and it's helped a lot of patience with these people said in a study that there's no evidence that supports it's a gateway drug what are your personal feelings about that argument so I don't feel that that cannabis is a gateway drug I do feel that you know one of the two things that you mentioned earlier is that your some people kind of have this personality where they're like interests are meant right and they they just they just want I want to try something so you know the fact is that

► 02:45:22

alcohol and cannabis just get introduced first most of the time most people you know don't do no Coke or LSD and then hey Ms say hey man let's try some some cannabis right so it's just that that's the very first one there so if we so you can say anything that that that was easier access if there was some new drug that you know did something similar to alcohol is similar to Canvas that was introduced in in our society you'd be calling that to gateway drug and I do feel and I do believe that neck meaning of inhibitions where is the opposite could be said about cannabis that makes you paranoid you might actually be less likely to try cocaine afterwards and I know that the name they don't they don't feel that that cannabis is a gateway drug either I mean again they said you know they found no compelling evidence to support the Gateway Theory and again I mean videos of the people that you are crying and in your book out so I can sell it let me ask you a little bit

► 02:46:21

they said in a retrospective cohort study may it from etal in 2016 exam to transition from cannabis use to the use of other illicit drugs they found that the probability of ignition other illicit drugs after cannabis did not differ significantly from the probability of stuff starting with other illicit drugs so it's just that cannabis is there first it's definitely not a gateway drug in any stretch the imagination I totally disagree and 50 years of data on this I know the studies that he's quoting but there are there are many others and I think the argument as to why and yet I think the argument that that to some extent having access to this drug via it illegally tends to open you up to other illegal stuff which to me is for legalization but I do want to throw one thing out there

► 02:47:14

you know I don't know how many of your viewers have teenage kids are in 08 Spicer probably more likely to be teenage cousin to have teenage kids but you know the book has

► 02:47:26

the one thing that really worries me in the if we're talking about gateway drugs is that Jewel and vaping are really a gateway to THC vaping so you can either you can really say that because it gets people it gets kids teenagers used to inhaling you know this illicit substance and you can actually retrofit a juul pod with THC they don't sell them but you can easily go online and look up how to do it and I think it really worries me and I've heard from a lot of parents in the last month that there is an epidemic of nicotine vaping THC vaping going on right now and that I think we're talkin about 15 16 17 year old inhaling pure THC the most dangerous form of this drug and I think unfortunately it's not going to take long before the mental health consequences of that become a parent and and I really do hope that the book gives parents some tools to talk to their kids about that nothing else

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passwords are you actually want to go over a few things that maybe I thought you might be interested in okay okay so you know you're a dude you're over 50 so prostate cancer so I don't think she owned it with CBD may actually be beneficial for prostate cancer and one thing within that two in the same study they actually found that people who use CBD and we're on chemotherapeutics actually augmented the efficacy of a tree and then they say your THC may actually be a little bit affected because it came on this comes back to it to sauce with it it can antagonize dhdh Tissot DHT is another testosterone a hormone as you know and that's no more more linked it to the prostate cancer one thing to know we didn't really get to talk about was a c t a t and n are concussions you all that I know a lot of your viewers are in the MMA and all about that

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I tweet a lot of study other day that you were treated I really appreciate that you went and Jesse was a three-year study show that the mortality rate overall was it was nine and a half percent of people who had suffered a TBI people who tested I know you don't we talk about correlation causation but you're the chief see users only had a 2.4% mortality rate the Nazis years has had 11.5% mortality I mean that's really really significant right like this is just THC not CBD Kush CBD oil for people with traumatic brain injuries young again of correlation causation but I mean that that the statues so over overwhelming think it was you no Nann cheats he was like 3.5% of what a bringing up Bates 11.5 11.5% compared to 2.4% and again CBD yes and there's even your own mechanisms of action have you even been identified with that it decreases inflammation in your brain post-concussion

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you're one last thing to again there's only one study on it so it was done on rats but you know I'm on the keto guy too but that study on rats interesting show that if you have if you do have a high fat diet that you can actually decrease sensitivity at the CB1 receptor and they think that that just because there's an increase in your in dodging is cannabinoids to a g and an endermite when you were with when you do have a high fat diet and then and then Alzheimer's Sido again I know you're plus plus 50 so you'll cheat cheat wants to keep doing this podcast forever

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and then CBD CBD has also been shown to be effective for for Alzheimer's disease as well as a rat study that was going to get into but it's fairly fairly it's really detailed so you might be best just to say that I can help with the rescue memory and patience if you do use CBD meaning in that it may actually reverse and that's been shown before to the vice interrupted for one second. I think you would agree this data is some of its some of its epidemiological really none of it really proves my gate swings let me say I'm okay if someone comes to me and they have a concussion it's very frustrating to say to them pay physical cognitive rest go home okay it's really frustrating to say that someone else O2 you know that the high-fat diet thing you Joe and I both follow you are very very similar diet so that's something I want to share with the

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words to you know the the Alzheimer's disease we have really really Port medications for that and we have an aging population so again like Alex like you want to look at everything which is what I'm doing like I'm looking at everything and I'm trying to make a clinical decision am I using some things like without you know randomized control Trials of course I am but again I'm a connection so I'm using you mechanism of action I'm using what I see and in clinic and I'm using epidemiological studies and I'm also taking into account what other medicines do I have no base upon all the date at this seems to be an effective treatment the clinician shouldn't do that especially your in Canada at cannabis is legal you should you should use your best judgment what I'm saying is that when we're talking about policy decisions and TC and to a much lesser sin CBD the advocacy groups have seized on this very very preliminary data to to say a lot of things about cannabis and THC that have not been proven

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you know a guy I know that Peter Bock who very smart he's a pulmonologist is at Memorial Sloan-Kettering in New York and he wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal a few a couple weeks ago talking about cannabis is limits as medicine and he said something I thought was so we'll put which is the reason why people want cannabis to work for Alzheimer's and Cancer and a bunch of things work. Where there's really no evidence that it works is that we don't have good treatments we want yours we want help we if we're clinicians I'm not a condition you want to be able to give people who come into our offices something but that hope is not a substitute for science it doesn't mean that it works and even you want you want your patients have hope okay but Advocates the people were using this to push especially to push THC and the capitalized in the public infusion around THC and CBD I think that is a real it's a real disservice to people

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okay listen I think we covered everything is complicated subject it really is and I think it's really important to discuss how complicated it is I don't I don't think I've never heard such a detailed analysis of all this stuff and in a way where you can get two opposing people that are you know very civil about it but agree on certain aspects of it I think I think we really highlighted all those things thank you so much for having a thank you thank you thank you so much really appreciate my cart on Instagram and iMac talk to my cart on on Facebook so it's d r m i k e h a r t i and if I had a copy I'd give you a call

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thank you everyone for tuna to the podcast and thank you to our sponsors thank you to Dollar Shave Club right now they've got a bunch of starter set so you can try for just $5 like their Oral Care kit and after that the restock box ships regular size products at a regular price so what are you waiting for get your starter set for just $5 right now at dollarshaveclub.com Rogan that's dollarshaveclub.com Rogan and we're also brought to you by stamps.com ladies and gentlemen access all of the amazing Services of the US Post Office right from your own computer with your own printer It's amazing And you can enjoy the stamps.com service with a special offer that includes a 4 week trial plus free postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in JRE that stamps.com and enter JRE and last but not least we are brought to

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you buy on it for the ONN it use the code word Rogan and you will save 10% off any and all supplements much love to you all bye-bye