#1245 - Andrew Yang

February 12, 2019

Andrew Yang is an American entrepreneur, the founder of Venture for America, and a 2020 Democratic presidential candidate.

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my guest today is running for president knighted states and he's very unusual candidate the one of the most non-politician like candidates you're ever going to hear talk and his platform is largely based on the concept of universal basic income I really enjoy talking to him I won't describe it any further without butchering it in the beginning of the podcast I will let Andrew do all the talking please welcome Andrew yang

The Joe Rogan Experience

Jess and Wheelock hello Hey Joe welcome thank you. It's great to be here thanks for having me my pleasure Sam Harris sends his regards a beautiful man I love that guy and he's one of the reasons why you're here so Universal basic income this is what this is all about yes that's what my campaign for president is all about that's an interesting like the focus of a campaign in a very unusual and I mean four years ago you never even thought that would have a chance at all but this is a subject that has been gaining momentum and I made it I made a big shift cuz I had my friend Eddie Wong on wants and he was the first person to bring it up and I my initial knee-jerk reaction was to get the fuck out here like Universal basic income just going to give you the money to just going to be lazy that's a terrible idea and then I started paying attention to the rise of AI and Automation and how many jobs are going to get taken away

once you see the actual numbers is pretty staggering that's how I got there Joe like I spent the last seven years running an organization that I'd started called Venture for America and we helped create about 3,000 jobs in Detroit Cleveland St Louis Birmingham New Orleans other cities around the country and I saw that we're pouring water into a bathtub that has a giant hole ripped in the bottom and that for every 5 10-50 jobs that my printers are going to create we're going to lose 5-10 50,000 jobs it's not something that people intuitively suspect could be a real issue either it's it's one of the ones we kind of have to let go Shake people like a look at this this is coming there's a clip we're going towards this Cliff it's darker still in that so when I was digging into the numbers I found that it's not this Cliff that we're heading towards it's actually more of a curve that were on what I've been telling people that were in the third inning now we're one of the main reasons why Donald Trump won

16 is that we automated away 4 million manufacturing jobs that were based in Michigan Pennsylvania Ohio Wisconsin Missouri Iowa all the swing States you needed to win in the center of the country and a lot of that was just manufacturing work and if you go to a factory you'll see it's a giant robot arms as far as the eye can see so it's not just that you have artificial intelligence on the horizon is that we've been eating away at the most common jobs in the US economy for almost 20 years now and it's just now hitting a point where it's pushing more and more unskilled men in particular out of the workforce now are there other Alternatives that you considered other than just Universal basic income like educating people about this being a real issue and perhaps pushing them or directing them towards other occupations recipe that most people are attracted to so I just want to unpack the number is a little bit more so people have a sense of it

Iowa last week and there's a guy Dennis pegouskie that gave me a ride from Altoona to Grinnell in Iowa where I've been campaigning and the truth of it Joe is that there are three and a half million truck drivers in this country right now is most common job in 29 States and the average trucker is a 49 year old guy with a high school education may be ex-military like Dennis was making like $50,000 a year so then if you say hey I'm going to retrain half-a-million truck drivers for what exactly is number one school driving a truck is made them really excited about the idea and then the new job training them for I looked into the data as to how good we were at retraining let's a displaced manufacturing workers in the midwest when we started decimating their jobs and we're Tara Blatt like according to independent studies government-funded retraining programs had a success rate of between 0 and 15% in real life

like this would actually happen to the workers of Michigan and Indiana and Ohio and so if you say we're going to return these people than you also have to come up with a way for us to become amazing at something that right now we're really really bad at and if you were an employer which you are would you rather employee a fifty-year-old former truck driver with health problems who got some certificate program or would you rather hire a 25 year old kid who went to Community College is probably cheaper has lower expectations and his skills are natively going to be a little fresher I mean if you were unemployed probably choose number 2

I agree but I'm trying to look at this through rose-colored glasses I guess if there's a way that these people can adapt you know what I mean some will for sure you can retrain and reschedule some people but if you look at even the conversations were having around this way people legitimately talk about retraining coal miners to be software Engineers stuff that makes no sense but the reason why we're stretching for that is because we're looking for some kind of retraining oriented solution when the numbers show that that's just not going to be the recipe for actual success this is where this whole learn-to-code controversies coming out online we're at people actually getting banned for riding learn-to-code it's really a hot subject on Twitter and it's very confusing to have really gotten explanation for why that's such an offencive thing to say but people are getting banned or even joking around code of its read it very well

but behind it it's kind of preposterous to ask someone who doesn't have an education to do something that's as difficult as code computer language and unfortunately we're going to get to a point where I can do some basic coding at a certain level so if you think about the impulse to say learn-to-code what is really saying is you need to do something at the market values pay being a truck driver the market talking about you that much and when the trucks are driving themselves in the next 5 to 10 years so what does the market value and then people like well coding and stem and and Engineering skills and so there's a drive to try and push people in those directions but if you look at the numbers about 8% of American jobs right now are in stem Fields like in technology engineering math etcetera to talk about 92% of the population that is not in those fields and it's unrealistic to expect that 92% to somehow shift into the 8% even be

places for them perfectly seamlessly transition there's too many people for those jobs the five most common jobs in the United States right now are administrative and clerical work retail and sales food service and food prep truck driving and transportation and Manufacturing those five jobs comprise about half of All American jobs only 32% of Americans graduate from college so the average American High School got to be one of these five jobs and if you look at it Technologies already doing a number on each of these jobs like the first administrative and clerical include call center workers in a eyes in the process of taking over that job retail and sales 30% of malls are closing in the next 4 years so that the danger. I think of it as artificial intelligence is coming it's actually already eating up the most common jobs in our economy and it's driving Americans into

stress in various ways in the numbers now when you talk about Universal basic income to just two questions to come up how much money and where is it coming from so first I want to say that if you look at the heritage of universal basic income it it's a deeply American idea where Thomas Paine was bored at the founding of the country and then Martin Luther King was for it Milton Friedman The Godfather of conservative Economist was four and one state has had it in effect for 37 years where everyone in that state gets between 1 and $2,000 a year a no-questions-asked going around telling people is that technology the oil of the 21st century so I know you spoke to another guest about how do you get that say approximately 3 trillion dollars a year to fund Universal basic income and a great thing is that it's the first thing is it's not actually 3 trillion and the reason why is that if you look at what we're currently doing we have we're spending about 1.5

playing right now on 126 welfare programs and Social Security and so if you show up to someone's door and say hey

here's a dividend of $1,000 a month but if you're already getting more than $1,000 and stuff we're not just going to stack it on top you know we're going is going to say you're guaranteed a thousand and if you're already getting more than this doesn't touch you you can keep your current stuff if you're getting 700 in food stamps and what not then you can just get 300 on top that about half of Americans are already getting various income support from the government so the real price tag is closer to about 1.8 trillion if you say everyone who's 18 and up for contacts the entire US economy is about 20 trillion. 5 trillion of the last 12 years and the federal budgets for trillion so you looking at 1.8 trillion it's a lot of money but it's actually manageable and one of the things that I haven't heard discussed here with you is that when you put money into people's hand the money doesn't disappear like if I gave you a

bucks a month they probably would not make a big difference in the economy cuz they're just go into your account somewhere and you know nothing would happen but we all know that right now most Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck 57% of Americans can afford an unexpected $500 bill so you put $1,000 a month in their hands it's going to go right back in the economy they're going to spend it on Child Care car repairs has been putting off the occasional night out and then all of those businesses and appearing more people and then we end up getting some of the money back as tax revenues so of the 1.8 trillion

you working to get back let's call it 400 billion in new tax receipts because everyone's going to be spending more money we're going to save one to two hundred billion on things like incarceration and homelessness services in emergency room health care I was in New Hampshire last month in a prison guard said to me was a prison guard he said we should pay people to stay at the jail because we waste so much money when they're in jail like you see is all the waste in the system so if you want to try and stay out of jail because if you end up in jail time and head back in how much crime do you think you would actually prevent though by giving people $1,000 a month I mean think most of the people that are doing crime whether it's Steve thievery or salt

not thinking this out you know this is this is just either a way of life for them either the you know their they've got real mental issues or a pattern of behavior that they can't break I really don't think that $1,000 a month going to fix any of that I could have fixed all of it for sure I will still have jails that's not like you know the Silver Bullet at the margins would it keep like that person who's falling through the cracks and feels like they have no place in society and maybe that you know it's like the people around them are also like hey you know you don't have any value in like a thousand bucks a month maybe like it keeps them off at the margins and everything were talking about is at the margins mean everything's like this statistical curve and you're taking the people who are it was called like the last 10 to 20% but if you reduce are incarcerated population by 10 to 20% mean that's billions and billions of dollars so you

you're saving money on a bunch of things we spend like it about a trillion dollars on right now like healthcare incarceration homelessness services and then the the magic is that if you have a thousand bucks a month and you're a parent so you feel this that Studies have shown that your kids are healthier better nourished more likely to graduate from high school and get further education mental health improves our relationships and prove domestic violence goes down hospital visits go down and your worker productivity goes up me and you're an entrepreneur and CEO oh so you know when you run a company you say I'm going to invest in my people I'm going to like treat them well and try and train them and do the resources cuz you know that'll increase your productivity as an organization and a public sector we have the opposite approach we're like if I can just avoid spending money on you

costly counterproductive ways in the back end cuz they wind up in our institutions institutions to spend a truckload of money so if you look at the cost savings and their values and economic growth that actually get you back about a trillion dollars of the 1.8 this is like the trickle-up economy cuz none of the money disappears it goes right back into the economy and the way you get the last eight hundred billion or so is related to what we think is happening with AI and all these Advanced Technologies cuz if you look at who's going to win with and self-driving cars and trucks take the savings from robot trucks are estimated to be 168 billion dollars a year from that one thing

so the problem is that the American public is going to see very little of that money because the winters going to be the trillion-dollar tech companies that are graded does not paying a lot of taxes they'll move it to Ireland Amazon will say didn't make any money this quarter no reason to pay taxes and so what we need to do is we need to put in a new tack that actually gets the American public a slice of every robot truck mile Amazon transaction Facebook ad and every other industrialized country already has this text called of value-added tax and because our economy is so vast a 20 trillion of value-added taxes even half of European level generates about eight hundred billion in new revenue and that gets you all the way there so this is much more achievable in affordable than most people think when they start unpacking how the numbers work out so essentially it would be the biggest corporations the the companies that gain or that have the largest revenue they're going to be paying most of this

is Harley Quinn's bat it's like if everyone in Missouri's getting a thousand bucks you know Amazon's going to see some of that because they're just going to buy more stuff that's true for all of the big companies what I say to CEOs and I've spoken to groups of dozens of CEOs what's really bad for your business is when people don't have money to spend on your business is so they're going to give up some money at the top and let things going to end up getting it back when their consumers end up spending a bit more then actually flushed out like they had the real numbers or the projections of how much they're going to get back with a thousand bucks a month and projected would create two million new jobs and the economy by 8 to 10% and then you can model out what that means to each business because in that climate they're going to see a similar uptick in Revenue did they factor in all the jobs that are going to be lost one of the things that's a misconception about Universal basic income is that it somehow will

facilitate job lost both of job losses though is the reason for Universal basic income in the first place right States is 63% which is the same levels is El Salvador in the Dominican Republic that's right now like 94 million or so Americans have left of Workforce or the last number of years now a lot of that's natural demographics a lot of that's people in school but about five million of it is unskilled man who got pushed out of the workforce so so again this is not like you know we're going to solve the problem is coming down the pike like in the middle of this problem so if you put a thousand bucks a month in the people's hands that actually grows the economy and create jobs because of more economic activity now when you say a problem is coming down the pike what what are the projections in terms of Life the timeline

sexy pretty consistent with each other which means are probably right so Bean says you're looking at between twenty and thirty percent of jobs which is pretty soon take eleven years from now Mackenzie says about 25% of the Obama White House live with their last day in office that you should report saying to me to weigh all the jobs and then like to know turn the lights off they said $80 an hour will be subject to automation by 2030 thing and so we have 11 years to try and accelerate meaningful Solutions and this 11 years is not like it all happens between now and then progressively according to all of the major institutions that have looked at this now when you take a guy who's working as a truck driver and he's making $50,000 a year and you tell him that automation is going to take away his job

good news we're going to give you $12,000 a year that's a substantial loss and income and yeah it also leaves them with his feeling of uselessness or hope they're not contributing and I think one of the things that people enjoy is earning their own way you know they date people don't it sounds counterintuitive people don't like free money they like a feeling of satisfaction of a job well done that they've created something they've done something we call this the freedom dividend we say look it's not money for nothing you're an owner and shareholder of the richest country in the history of the world just like when I buy Verizon or Microsoft they send me a dividend like I don't complain about that like you're now a shareholder in this great nation and you get a dividend but when I was with Dennis the trucker who owns his own trucking company in Iowa

the

the role that jobs playing in truckers lives is vital and again I'm a very data-driven Guy where men deal with joblessness very very poorly by the Numbers we spend our between 40 and 75% of our time on the computer playing video games or doing other things

we are substance abuse goes up are volunteering in the community goes down even though we have more time and we generally spiral into antisocial and self-destructive behaviors this is not something that's experienced by women in the same levels like women and joblessness women actually more adaptable they're more likely to go back to school and volunteer they don't spend all the time when the computer is the way that we do so there's a real problem and the purpose of universal basic income is not meant to be a job replacement for those truckers because right now those truckers and when I talked to the truck driver so I've been campaigning for president now for a number of months so I spent a lot of time in Iowa which is a really huge Trucking Hub and you go to them and say hey guys you worried about robots taking over jobs feel like there's no way we're about to take my job like that that's like totally matter of fact they like like this is not something that they worry about their attitude has transitioned from that

someone to we should make robot trucks illegal or we should make it to that a robot truck and not displacing because they were like it's impossible the idea that American would say we should make a robot job illegal like it's we should have some laws that keep you from being free to use robots for your business instead of person like you should be forced to highly mandatory unionization or something that sounds pretty ridiculous well that's where a lot of them are Joe so only 13% of truckers are unionized so 87% are like Dennis where there is a small independent firms and a lot of them actually bought at least their own trucks as they took out tens of thousands of dollars in equal in my mortgage to get this truck and so if they have to compete against the robot truck that doesn't stop that's like you know that's

essential level stuff in right now truck drivers have time use regulations where they cannot drive more than 14 hours a day so you can't you literally cannot compete where I am because the robot trucks just going to keep going our 15 16 17 etcetera so these guys make some of the make really good money like something to make 70 75 80 thousand dollars is one of the higher paying jobs for men without a college degree and so if you look at what they're facing it's not so crazy that they're like hey you need to make the robots illegal because for them what is the next best economic alternative if the robot trucks take over that job like we're leaving to go from crazy for them but it's a crazy idea to tell company that they can't do something it's more efficient safer than public economically more viable from automating truck-driving are estimated to be 168 billion dollars per year

and not just leave her savings but also equipment utilization cuz the trucks never stop fuel efficiency because a truxican daisy chained together so there's less wind resistance you were accidents cuz right now truck accidents kill about 4,000 people a year so you probably save lives does a very very powerful argument for the fact that we should be trying to automate this stuff but on the other side you have literally three and a half million truckers who rely upon this for their livelihoods to support their family and there's going to be a lot of passion a lot of resistant to this anyone who thinks the truck drivers are just going to shrug and be like all right I guess I had a good run I'm just going to go home and figure it out that's not going to be their response it's going to be much more likely that they say what you need to make these robot trucks it legal to cross the highway get their guns out cuz a lot of these guys are ex-military and just be like hey move my truck until you know I get my job back and then you really think that would happen

well I don't block the highway for their job back that's less efficient kills more people so I was with these truckers in the truck stop in Altoona Iowa and Joe they have really really difficult jobs I mean I don't know if you knew truckers where you were but they have this 14 hour window where they allowed to drive your truck and they drive most of that so they have these other 10 hours and they sleep in their truck or trucks have a bit they going to the truck stop they take a shower and there's a laundry and they're like plugged into this machine of this truck of an end the industry you know they spend days and times weeks on the road a lot of them listen to podcast probably a lot of them listening right now a lot of podcast and they're doing it primarily because it's a more lucrative opportunity than the other jobs that are available to them a lot of them have families that like you know like the support of their families and so if you say hey guys like

port for this way of life

most of them I think will not like like I actually I look at how much they frankly they'd like injure there so much endurance baked into that job that I think most of them will be like some of the guys you and I know where they're much more likely to like implode or like you know do something where where it's self-destructive then they would be to take the truck in you know park it across the highway but you're talking about a population of hundreds of thousands including many small business owners and small business owners have a different mentality very often like I've been an entrepreneur I'm a Serial entrepreneur for like last 20 years like you're an entrepreneur and if you saw this happened you might say I'm adaptable I'll figure it out or you might say hey

I think I can do something about this like if I park my truck this way like that's going to cause such Havoc that it's like hundreds of millions of dollars worth of economic harm very very fast and if you look at the Industrial Revolution which people cite as the precursor to what we're going through there were Mass riots that killed dozens of holes called billions of dollars worth of damage Labor Day is a holiday today because of those riots and then we implemented Universal High School in 1911 in part as a response to these riots so according to the estimates this is called the fourth Industrial Revolution and we're going to displace jobs at three to four times the rate of that Industrial Revolution and that Industrial Revolution included Mass riots so thinking that this one will not strikes me as really really optimistic and perhaps unrealistic what do you see coming

when when you when you think that these jobs going to be automated and then Universal basic income is going to supplement their in going to give them some money $1,000 a month but where do they go from there I mean how do people exist on $12,000 a year like what do they do like how do they adopt this new world right so the first thing you have to do is you have to look at what lies ahead if we do nothing so does the way it's going to play out is that self-driving trucks are slowly going to start hitting the highway is Amazon's testing them out right now and that the first aid is going to be that there's a human driver just sitting there is a failsafe and a truck going to drive itself

now my friend is Silicon Valley are working on Telegraph operators which is so the trucks have right now like a 98% accuracy level which is not very high because you can't have 2% semi trucks like running into things percenter so is there equipping trucks with Tela operating software which means that trucker Attalla operator in Nevada or Arizona will be into the truck and just be able to see out the front like a video game like let you know that drone operating but instead of the truck and then and then you just see the truck until the computers like I got it from here and then you came out to try and get that last bit of uncertainty they're having it again Joe what time does a hundred 68 billion dollars a year like everything becomes possible that much money so in the absence of anyone doing anything about trucks will start

reducing shifts of various truckers I would say 6 to 10 years from now and so then they'll be a bunch of reactions about Trucking firms already have massive shortages they can't find enough people that's one reason why they're trying to automate this job as fast as they are because they're literally like you know they're short like a couple hundred thousand truckers right now and people don't want to go into this field for a variety of reasons the main thing being it's like extraordinary brutal and you physically very very bad for family life too cuz you're away all the time

something like 88% of truckers have an early marker for chronic disease like substance abuse diabetes obesity high blood pressure or something along those lines and now people think that the jobs going to disappear in the next 5 to 10 years you can get people in

so if you play out what happens when the robot truck start reducing shifts then they'll be people trying to flee the field of trucking and then if it becomes really dramatic where the robot start driving would say between Western Pennsylvania and Nevada and then human beings get in in those States and it take it the rest of the way because the robots won't be reliable enough to drive in urban areas we were liable enough to drive on an interstate just have to make a few decisions of depletion of truck driving opportunities and then in my mind a lot of suicides a lot of self-destruction and I don't say that lightly I say that based upon the fact that that's what happened to manufacturing workers wear if you unpack what happened to the manufacturing workers of Michigan Ohio Indiana suicide rate spiked to a point where now our life expectancy of the country has declined for the last three years because of suicides and Drug overdoses it's the first

has happened since the great flu pandemic of 1918 like we are actually coming apart as a country by the numbers so what happened to the manufacturers will that happen to the trucker is but at a didn't even more dramatic scale so you'll see truckers going home in and drink themselves to death or doing drugs and overdosing or killing themselves and then eventually will be an outbreak of violence because some truckers will say instead of killing myself how about I go bust up a robot truck and there are already truckers that are doing things like blocking Tesla recharge an electronic vehicle battery stations because I don't like electronic trucks those are pickup trucks so those are assholes this is not like people doing it because they they think that these Tesla recharge stations are taking jobs away they're just being dick heads exactly Joe so if you're going to be a dick head even though it really has nothing to do with you imagine when you ask

I think your livelihoods being threatened getting revved up like a much higher level so so I'm running for president in large part because I think we need to get in front of the problems we have to say look if we're going to save 168 billion dollars a year maybe some of that should go to the trucker's and give them a soft Landing maybe we should have this Universal basic income where everyone feels like they're getting a thousand bucks a month which is not a work replacement it's not going to make their lives easy they still need to work but at least it take the edge off it takes like the existential threat off and also their kids getting it so they feel like okay my kid actually has some kind of path to the Future and it's not like if I lose this trucking job not only am I going to do no struggle and suffer but my kid will too so my plan as president is to install a trucker transitions are and say look it is your job to try and manage this transition for the three and a half million truckers and Joe

even talked about the five million Americans to work at truck stops motels diners retail establishments all the places where the trucker is stop every day to get out eat a meal and you know like live a life mean if you imagine those communities when the trucks don't stop there's going to be a drying up of economic Vitality on a level that's unprecedented many of these communities this is something that I'm just becoming aware over the last year or two when you when you are out on the campaign Trail and you know you're talking to media and you're discussing this with people how many people have no idea that this is coming

well what I say to people Joe is I say have you noticed stores closing in your Main Street and then they say yes and I asked them why is that and then they reflect for a minute and then they say Amazon that's right results getting 20 billion dollars every year and is now tipping your malls and Main Street stores into Oblivion like a robot 2 years away and then you like no it's not robots actually like walking around your neighborhood I mean of course that's unlikely but Amazon soaking up the business that used to go to your mall if you go over there for Film It Center it's robots as far as the eye can see if you go to their their warehouse you know it's also robots as far as far as the eye can see so when you asked how aware are people at this is happening it's one of those truths that as soon as you pointed out there like oh yeah like I knew that was what was up is just for whatever reason I'm like the only person just laying out the facts and being

hey guys it's not your imagination like we actually are getting rid of the most common jobs in the US economy field by high school graduates and then replacing them with a handful of jobs for hire skilled people in different places and then we're pretending that the first population is somehow going to access the new opportunities when the odds of them getting up in like moving to Seattle or not becoming a web designer or like Logistics manager or big data scientist or something like essentially near zero and so this is what gave rise to a lot of the anchor that got Donald Trump elected because they looked around their communities and we're like a I used to work in this manufacturing plant this manufacturing plant no longer exists for whatever reason like I'm being told that it somehow my fault that I wasn't. You know I didn't somehow become a coder or something ridiculous this is like something that I've picked

from Denison Parts on with the structure and Iowa and he says to me he says like I don't think that Democrats care about people like me like I can understand why he feels that way but that's incredibly destructive because there is a point at which Democratic party used to be very very heavily aligned with working class Americans and there's now some kind of pathology that if the person who suffering is a white man of a certain background than the suffering some how is like somehow like diminished counted but if they're a trucker and that's something that I find really

destructive it's like we have to start acknowledging the source of the problem is one thing I'm saying that people take a look at that immigrants they're taking these jobs away like just fax it is not immigrants it is the fact that technology is pushing our economy in a direction that makes it harder and harder for many Americans to get buy based upon this current I trade my time for money model now we seem to be the big one right yeah cashiers are another one what are the other job jobs that are going to be killed by automation so that the next obvious one is call center workers were there two and a half million call center workers still in the United States an hour now when you and I call a company we're like pounding he's trying to get a human because the way I so annoying but over the next number of months AI is going to become indistinct indistinguishable from a person

the new Google answering service it's amazing and so that two and a half million call center populations going to shrink a ton because after you get AI software that's better than one of them you know what can be most all of them you know that's not like 5,000 jobs 500,000 I was at a conference of how many of them are looking at having a I replace back office workers like berries clerical functions every single hand went up there's going to be a lot of clerical work having system talk to each other that's going to disappear and one

CIO type of like a major Bank said that his estimate was that about 30% of the bank's workers fall into that category she looking at call center worker as you're looking at back office workers you looking at Insurance Brokers insurance is a very highly automated Belinda Street cuz it's a lot of information getting passed back and forth cashiers as you said truck drivers delivery driver to Uber drivers goes even as far as medical procedures there was a recent automated medical procedure where they did surgery on a grape yes just a complete automated Dental implantation has China actually has a real shortage of surgeons and so there incentives to try and automate this are very very high now the interesting thing here Joe is that lets out I made a robot surgeon tomorrow that was awesome could you better work than a lot of people right now the economic incentive still are not necessarily for everyone to use my robot surgeon because the regulations

there yet in the US and so Healthcare is a really interesting one another one that's very clearly going to get taken up by AI is radiology and looking at tumors on a film because it turns out that way I can see Shades of Grey that a human eye cannot and it can reference millions of films where the most experienced doctor can probably reference thousands and so Radiology I'll tell you medical students are running from Radiology as fast as they can cuz they know that's going to get taken out by a I such a bleak forecast it's very strange when we stop and think about all the different things that human beings find Value in as far as their occupation like hey I'm of this, that is what I do and if the idea that these things are all going to go away is very it's kind of disturbing so it in when I was thinking to the research show it's been happening and it's tearing us apart I mean I reference the fact that so here's some things that are all time at halt Alzheimer multi-decade high is right now in the United States of America

suicide drug overdoses anxiety and depression mental problems financial and security people being unable to pay their bills all of these things are at record highs and one thing that I know you've talked about in the past and I think you really find

fascinating so there's been there been studies as to what happens to your mind when you can't pay your bills and and when you can't pay your bills you're like stressing out like if I pay this I can't pay that and there's like always the time money trade-off it's like oh if I spend extra time commuting me back in Sayville a couple bucks and see what it does is it actually constrains your bandwidth to a point that you're functional IQ goes down by 13 points or one standard deviation so just if you say to someone hey here's a bill you can't pay and then you give them my IQ tested their score actually goes down by 13 points in a lot that's like a really huge what we're doing right now Joe is we're actually making our population less rational less reasonable more impulsive more subject to bad ideas nastier more subject to things like racism and misogyny to be that turns out what happens with most of us as you need Executive functioning to resist like racist and massage misogynistic impulses and so if I make you cash-strapped and make it to Camp

Bill's you're actually more likely to be like yeah just so and it's actually pushing our population into a mindset of scarcity of nastiness and that's why Universal basic income is so crucial because it gets the boot off of people's throats and it replaces the mindset of scarcity with a mindset of abundance and rationality and optimism and capacity like I'm an entrepreneur you're an entrepreneur I'll tell you very very few Panera's start businesses at a scarcity will the great thing is again this thousand dollars is yours no matter what so right now let's saying you're you're doing a normal job so if you make $1000000 a year still get $1,000 a month

yes you do it mean to talk to him so you could opt in and and take it which most Americans would because it's still a thousand bucks a month people get greedy thousand dollars to get my nails done yes or give it away if there were they know they felt like it yeah yeah but this so those are the things that are at like all time highs like all these negative social indicators hear things that are at all-time lows getting married starting a business having a kid moving for a new job all of those things are at historic lows in United States of America having children really record low birth rates right now and it's largely because people feel too strapped to have kids I mean that's literally where we are when you say record low by like what percentage you can look up right now Jamie I don't want to look this up but stories have come out of this last year saying that Americans are now at the lowest rate of childbirth that it has been the case in a decade or ever

that's a conversation that I have a people whenever they say that they're worried about population that the population is growing so fast and over popular Jugos 1.80 births per woman 2016 what does it mean

so is dropping from 1970 at a high to from 1980 to today. That's still a side effect of if it goes from 1.8 to the coast from even something like 1.9 to 1.8 is like a pretty significant drop your low fertility rates sink further below replacement level and so you think that this is because of education and this is because of people are waiting longer to have children and that this is the byproduct of industrialization and modern world and that the more educated and Athlon people get the less likely they are to have children then it's not the same as far as everything I've read about it is that it's not a symptom of people doing poorly it's a symptom of people doing well

you know they're there are definitely cases where richer countries is have fewer kids that's cool cuz they concentrate on their careers right is that the idea but the the darker part of his job is that right now if you're an oncologist ocated person in the United States the odds of your ever getting married less than 50% know for the first time ever and then people are having fewer kids to play Devil's Advocate the marriage thing might be people looking at it Go, parents got divorced my brother got divorced everybody else got divorced what the fuck am I doing there a lot of good reasons to get a happily married man might as well I was telling people I tell people do it's just it's too risky to me certainly to me getting married having kids like an active like Prosperity or optimism their reasons why it's going down otherwise but if you look at things like starting a new business I mean that being at multi-decade Lowe's there's like no positives

people moving between states is now a multi-decade Lowe's people moving for a new job multi-decade Lowe's like the product of a bunch of different factors like internet but purchasing and marketing and think people buy most their goods and clothes and stuff on it and keep in mind I spent seven years helping out the nerves grow businesses in 18 cities around the country between 2011-2017 that's actually my job my job was to be the job Creator guy and so when you go out to these places you see that the dynamism is getting sucked up by a certain markets to a level that's unprecedented in our history like that that the disparities between Cleveland San Francisco or St Louis and LA are much much higher than they've been in any other historical. Goat by the numbers

and like after you actually go to the places you like wow like this is not flourishing the way that you do you feel like an economic Paul Revere in a certain sense like that the robots are coming, I do it's weird man of the person I make is that if the United States economies like an elephant parable of like the people like in a blind people in a pressing the elephant so I'm an entrepreneur I sold a company to a public company that was a National Education company is based in New York what is the parable of blind people touching an elephant so what happened why men and they they get ass like what is the what is an elephant look like and then one of them is touching the trunk and it's like an elephant looks like a snake and another one's touching it's like it's like an elephant looks like a tree trunk most people experience the economy is that they like touching a part of the economy in there like this is what it looks like he is like so I've had this really strange set of experiences where I sold a a National Education company

public company I live by Coastal between New York and San Francisco for the last five years I've operated in 18 cities around the country that was a I was in a pointy end in the Obama Administration in DC so I've actually seen the elephant if you know what I mean like I pulled out ya like I'm I'm like hanging out with the tech Wizards in Silicon Valley and I'm like hey you don't get all the Macy's jobs

so it's not a mystery and they're not bad people and I do not have that choice I have a job to do you know this is my job and what I tell people is like whose responsibility is it to go tell the people look ITS Technologies transform the economy fundamental ways and we need to make it so that everyone benefits and it's not just that this like hyper concentrated set of winners and then just like huge Army of of relative losers and it's the government job but at this point we've given up on our government as anything like it can't really do anything and so now it's no one's job and so somehow Joe it has become my job and it blows my mind to sometimes now coming from a place of being a Serial entrepreneur to this presidential candidate is kind of warning people about the upcoming technological apocalypse as a

how did you make that transition in what was your motivation to get involved in this the point we're actually running for president on this platform in 2009 and that was a financial crisis like Wall Street across the economy and I have personally taught these kids who'd worked at Goldman Sachs & Morgan Stanley in and Mackenzie and I was like man we need smart kids to do something other than just head to Wall Street Silicon Valley we need to have them go to Detroit St Louis Baltimore and it won't start businesses so I quit my job I donated low six-figures start the new organization and then we trained hundreds of entrepreneurs and helped create several thousand jobs so that was like my wholesome give back I was like hey I'm like you know the guy who is just like you I freaking love entrepreneurs and I was like to hear the joke I used to I went to law school I was an unhappy lawyer for 5 months and so what would I tell people is like if you are clueless

ambitious 22 year old who came out of college and you said your parents having to go to law school they're going to say that's great it's really easy to find the law school cuz they're just applied with and the government will give you $100,000 loan no questions asked and then if you say to your parents have want to be an entrepreneur your parents will think that's stupid it's hard to find and don't give you $100,000 so we have this cute oversupply of indebted law school graduates and a huge undersupply of entrepreneurs was my thinking and so I was like okay how do you fix that so I started this organization Venture for America to try and fix that and so imagine being this guy getting medals and awards for helping create jobs around the country and then realizing that automations coming like a tidal wave and that your efforts that you're getting applauded for a really not going to do the trick and the Donald Trump win the election 2016 and for whatever reason in my opinion the media is not being honest about all the economic drivers they're blaming

cysm Russia Facebook the FBI and if you look at the voter District date on a district-by-district basis there's a straight line up between the adoption of industrial robot in that voting district in the movement towards Trump like it's a straight economic story where we blasted away for a million manufacturing jobs in the swing States and Donald Trump is our president so imagine being me and then seeing that and being like okay I get it this is an economic technological story and then I went to people in Washington DC I was like hey guys what you going to do when the third inning of the greatest economic and technological transformation in the history of our country and 1/3 Innings has brought us Donald Trump the 4th 5th 6th and either going to be horrific

what are we going to do

and then the answers I got were somewhere between disappointing and horrifying where if you go to mainstream politicians you like what are we going to do the answers I got were literally number one we cannot talk about that number two we should study that we cannot talk about that because it seems alarmists like anti-progress or like you know that you're like you know throwing stones at it like like big tech companies and it's like I'm not throwing anyone just pointing out the fact so number one is the number one was can't talk about it number two is need to study it and the number three was the point you made the original which was we must educate and retrain Americans are the jobs of the future and then when I was like Hey we're terrible at that by the numbers that played Lily be like well I guess we'll learn to get better at it then and then so I came back to to my home in New York City and I was like oh my gosh like we are so backward and far gone as it as it certainly hasn't

and so then I was grappling with it and I'm a parent like you are and I looked at my kids and I was like am I really going to bring them up in this shit show like I said and so then I was like okay how would you actually solve this problem if you if you had to do so and so that I said okay Universal basic income rebranded the freedom dividend after we did a bunch of Tasker the test much better as the freedom dividend in Universal basic income and then try and make you the rules of the economy work better for more people as fast as we can before this automation wave really crescendoed what do you mean by that to me but you know what I'm saying is like retail and truck driving are the two major major obvious sectors that are going to get displaced being a retail worker where is the most common job in the United States right now that the average retail workers a 39 year-old woman with a high school education making between 11 and $12 an hour so what do those workers do in 30% of the malls and stores close

in the next 5 years now and then trucker the next in line you know by the five to 10-year Mark feels like we have to get our act together before these populations end up getting this place and we know American don't have a ton of savings to fall back on it's not like they'll be like oh like you know let me take a month off to like think of our lives and experience so so this is all 2017 where I'm like doing the data research and saying like Okay like what's the plan and then when I went to various politicians I was like there is no appetite for making this case there's no appetite for anyone even talking about this so the only thing I can see that would have a realistic chance of accelerating meaningful solutions to this automation waving a 5 to 10 your time frame is if I run for president and I either win which is very doable I can win or I mainstream this set of considerations to

where other politicians are willing to tackle something like Universal basic income and make it a reality in that time frame anyone can win right I mean it is possible mean there are voters people are voting but do you really believe that you can win or Joey I'm going to be running if you wouldn't believe that but but if you are not you know I appreciate the question and I've been very upfront the whole time is that if my ideas and policies become front and center and we get this done then if I'm not president knighted states like I'm perfectly happy with that like I'm on the record as being like I'm just trying to solve problems I'm an entrepreneur trying to solve a problem that said I'm already pulling at 1% nationally I'm tied with Kirsten gillibrand and other National politicians right now is we're sitting here I have no idea here to you Kirsten gillibrand to the senator from New York

normal morons like myself are not aware of that like I wouldn't have known that you were running for wasn't for Sam I appreciate that man but now happily everyone who's the fan of yours which is apparently everybody photos of reading but so you're right that most people never heard of Andrew Young and I'm already pulling at 1% enough for me to make the debates are you running as an independent I'm running as a Democrat because the mechanics make it such that that is necessary for you to be able to actually succeed and win but I can go through with you the mechanics and you might enjoy this cuz I know you you and Sam another is sometimes talk politics in presidential politics so I'm an operator and so you get to him be like okay was it take to be president so there are two rules to run for president one as you have to be 35 years or older check in on the second is natural born citizen check only rules that's it so then you get into the process and you say okay the first two states that border Iowa and New Hampshire now

they're going to be about 20 people running for president as a Democrat this cycle you probably knew that right so you look at the Iowa caucus Iowa has a population of 3.1 million but only 171000 Iowans participated in the caucus in 2016 because it's a very high investment now they change the rules of this year it's going to be closer like let's call it 250,000 but if you have 20 candidates to finish top three in a field of 20 you probably need about 40 to 50 Thousand Islands to get on board so you say hey do do I think I can be president knighted states the threshold question is this can I get 40 to 50 Thousand Islands on board with the idea that them and their family members getting $1,000 a month is a good idea that I would actually help improve their lives I'm sure it would help improve their lives and I'm sure they would agree with you the question is what are the other thing I don't think most people are aware

did this is coming and I think you educating people and explaining all the statistics and seeing the forecast for tickly from your position as a serial entrepreneur who has a deep background in business and you have a deep understanding your ear helping in a tremendous Way by educating people but I think most people have it may be logically but they have different concerns

so how do you address these other concerns like at I bet if you pulled people what are the issues what are the issues in this upcoming 2020 presidential race that you know who's going to beat Donald Trump how do you do it it's like on the Democratic side the ideas I'd anyone but Trump write this is me they would be so happy if fill in the blank Tulsi gabbard you whoever on the Republican side obviously Trump unless someone comes along award goes to jail for those are the two possibilities what are the other issues and that you feel that people are really concerned about that you can perhaps shed some unique light on sure so that the three big policies I'm running on R1 the freedom dividend cuz a lot of Americans sarcina paychecks not keep up with their expenses number two is we need to get Healthcare off the backs of businesses and families and move towards a single-payer system medicare-for-all because as

but it makes it harder to hire people when you do hire people you want to make them contractors not full-time employees makes it harder for people to start businesses cuz they're concerned about keeping their health care for their families so we got to get Healthcare off the backs of businesses and families in and trying to make the economy more Dynamic and we spend twice as much on Healthcare in other countries do to worst results like it's right now we're in like the worst of all worlds and the thing is I reference my wife and I talked about this. My wife is at home with our two boys 6 and 3 one of them is Autistic and what I say is like what is her work valued at in GDP and the people think about and I like I don't know like zero EP like doesn't consider that actual economic contribution from GDP as a measuring stick because it actually doesn't work for us it's almost a hundred years old and made it up during the Great Depression self-driving trucks are going to drive GDP way up but it's going to be very very

bad for many people and communities so we have to actually change the measuring sticks to something that would actually make our economy work for us make make it so that the market serves us instead of all us being inputs to the market because of where all inputs the market we lose to robots and Ai and it's not like it doesn't matter if you were like a really conscientious hard-working truck driver like a really lazy sloppy what does it matter if you were like a really diligent radiologist or like a doesn't matter so we have to shift the market emphasis actually few will our well-being and change from GDP which is against our cake measurement we made up doing things like Health success rates environmental be translatable to the average voter and again if you look at our numbers right now you'd see it's like what like how many people listen to his know that

is life expectancy has declined for the last three years you know that to me would be like a pretty important measurement than you think that's because of is it cuz of suicide is it because of drug overdose is it because of obesity diet what is it the two causes that people point to the most are that drug overdoses in suicides have overtaken vehicular deaths as as the most frequent deaths in the United States I didn't know that suicide was Limitless I knew that drug overdose it take an obesity but suicides of a would take over taking obesity as well suicides it overtake in car accidents I'm not sure about it I'm sorry I meant I might crack since I misspoke so car accidents used to be number one suicides are higher than car accidents now

so suicides drug overdoses and then car accidents or suicides and Drug overdoses like wow and so that's why life expectancy has declined for the one you think that the sewage very much likely there's at least some of the number of the suicides are related to economic disparity oh yeah I mean if you look at the suicide rate in it's particularly pronounced in 52 fifty-year-old 5254 year old white Americans which are the population of New resemble that that's my reality which resembles the population that right now is reaching a point where they like hey my job skills don't have any I know like utility the marketplace and then they go home and they just like you know start looking around and being like what am I doing I mean it's really dark is punitive it's punishing and we put our citizens in the situation where we all see ourselves as economic input

what the market says we're worth is what we're worth and if we're worth less then it's our fault and so the next move it to say okay I guess you know this place there's no place for me here I don't mean to sound skeptical but I just don't believe that $1,000 a month is going to fix that it seems like that would be a good thing certainly not moving in the wrong direction certainly moving in the right direction but it seems that there needs to be some sort of a massive rethinking of civilization itself if you're going to have that many things that are going to be automated that many people are going to be out of jobs and feeling that the world that they prepared for no longer exist yes

it seems like we need a step further another move 100% brother and that's one reason why the freedom of dividends not like us like that doesn't solve the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of reconstituting means of structure purpose in fulfillment in people's lives particularly in men's lives right how do we do that right so one important aspect of that is to actually start measuring how we are doing as a society and saying that's actually where we're trying to go so instead of using GDP using some sort of other quantifiable method of measuring health and happiness and fulfillment yes levels of Engagement with work mental health I mean you can we have measurements for that we are supposed to get enough to do that and then if we say that has present I'm going to be up there in 20 21 being like oh here's the State of Union

in the right direction so let's try and get drug overdoses down by 50% in two years let's try and get our mental health up a little bit and then make it so that person who's at home being like okay like you know I like there's not a job for me I'm getting a thousand bucks a month that does not solve all my problems it takes the edge off but then we can hopefully start reconstituting what that person's purposes in their community in their neighborhood and so

one of the things that are going to point out is that if you pump a thousand bucks a month into that neighborhood it has a creating a whole new running of opportunities for the people in that Community like some of that money goes to you know like youth Lee's and churches and nonprofits and Creeds job is right there in that Community one of the examples I use as like if you're in a town in Missouri with 50,000 people and let's say you really like to bake but starting a bakery is a dumb idea because people just do not have money in that town to buy your baked goods but then I pump 16 million dollars a year into that economy and a lot of that to circulate right there in that town then if I start a bakery it's a good idea and I know I'm not going to die I can least go home and get my dividend and then if I go to other people and say hey you want to like help me out with this than they also think is a better idea what they would have so the money is not the solution the money helped set the stage

where the solutions so does the measurements so does if you cuz right now it's like you don't even know that your life expectancy is declining that's kind of hard to solve that problem so if you say look this is actually how we measure how we're doing and then you go in and say okay like local government and Geo entrepreneur cuz right now like around Spinners working on trying to make that dude's life better, it's like that that's not only do so much most entrepreneurs are just trying to succeed very difficult to start a business writing in work out well that the idea that they're going to look out for truck drivers it is a realistic but at least we can start moving ourselves in that general direction if we start cuz as of a CEO you know this you make what you measure if you start measuring it you at least start to open up the chance but what you're saying is the most profound which is like we need to reconstitute meaning for many many Americans you know that's what

the most destructive aspect of the weekend like that the mental health indicators in like that suicides in the rest of it is like there's a real awesome meaning for many many people here in this country obviously were talking about a large-scale but if you go back to the time before trucks and truck drivers that was not a viable occupation it wasn't something people there but yet they still found a way to occupy their time do you think that there needs to be some sort of an education and some some sort of a method of explaining to young people in particular that you have to think of something to do because most of the things that you think you can do won't exist so we have to think of what are the other possibilities and be creative and do something with your life that only a human being can do which is a really weird way to think about it because most of the things you used to be able to think that a human being could do for a living

are now going to be done by robots but I don't think that I think there's a giant gap between the understanding that you have and they are saying that the average person has and this could be a real problem and trying to expand its platform informed when I say this to people there like that makes perfect perfect sense. I'm not disagreeing with you in any way shape or form of I'm just thinking man for young kids for young kids and you know you're a parent I'm a parent but what so our education system has a lot to be desired and one of the things I'm saying is like is it's making all these kids think that college is the end-all-be-all and it is not and so that's one issue is that we need to try and prepare kids for different kinds of pads instead of saying College College college you know because they're going to college there getting loaded up with record levels of debt college is gone two and a half times more expensive even though it is

on two and a half times better. And the reason why it's gotten so expensive is because they just like cotton really bloated administratively and what would you do about that like you know Bernie Sanders wants to have some sort of free college free University across the board of education to be a hundred percent free things that I hate is talking to my friends about college debt friends are in their 30s and 40s it doesn't it just stays with him like a wet blanket that you can never get out of ir used to call my school on my mistress cuz I was running a check to like another family another town I was like I hope they're enjoying themselves something devastating happens to you in any other form you can file for bankruptcy but you never Escape your student loans no matter what happens to you that was just a lobbying on the part of the the financial

dirty that's really dirty when you think about how many people that run corporations that have racked up I mean just think about what happened with the Savings and Loan crisis lately man and those guys skated vast majority have their carrying around zero zero burden from that trip a few people criminals Like Bernie Madoff went to jail you know a few people down there but that's about it and now you have to be a real fucking thief to go to and these people that just they did this and got away with it in and profited in redistributed all this money into their own personal accountant and a butthole, me sideways but heaven forbid you take out a bunch of school loans and things go south I just can't get out of it I mean I know the guy who's in his 50s whose an ophthalmologist who is deeply in debt still so amazing

and if you look at it just economically it's a massive burden on people starting businesses starting family is buying homes it's impossible with their parents showed up the first thing you do is you go to the people that are currently in debt and say look we're going to give you a pass out and their ways to do it you know you can have a payment plan one thing is I'm proposing me like 10 by 10 where if you commit 10% of your wages for 10 years and you're debt-free and that means like if you're not make a lot of money and then you can save a whole lot and the schools at this point have long since forgotten about this these loans cuz they got paid off already this is just these Financial companies that I are holding alone sex important for people to understand because people think you can be like a loan loan company yes what likes good news really like take this out into stimulus cuz like you said we've done a lot of things that were supposed to be a stimulus like give for trillion dollars the bank's be like

nothing's going to stimulate the economy better than getting student loans off the backs of freaking young people actually do what they're supposed to do which is actually do you know spend money economy to a chance to take chances and start businesses in the rest of it mean one of the reasons why are business formation rates are at multi-decade Lowe's that we are up to 1.5 trillion dollars in schooled it like 38k ahead that was like a hundred billion in like 1999 so we'd like gone up 15 x since then and it's crippling us it's like saying anyone who thinks that that's not burning the economy I mean just got a president be like hey guys it's a stimulus but this time to stimulus of people we're going to forgive some the student loan debt does have that stuff was generated in Morley any way a lot of it was his schools in a lying about does it get people in the door that the second thing you do is you go to the schools and say hey guys why you two and a half times more expensive than you used to be that's kind of weird cuz I guess far as I can tell there's been no massive quality change and the reason is

the pile of administrator that they has not gone to faculty it is not going to facilities it has gone to just administrative access and bloat and then say okay you can do whatever you want but if you want access to Federal loans which they all rely upon for their lifeblood like without it they die if you want your students have access to Federal loans you have to bring your administrator to student ratio in line with what it was like in the 1990s and then the schools would scream bloody murder they be like I can't do that it's impossible and bring it down and you would realize it doesn't impact the student experience at all like and I understand it cuz I've run a large nonprofit organization that it started and you're very natural tendency is it to higher excellent people and then before you know it you're like have excellent people like you know by students of everything but then over time that ends up building a very large cost structure that gets passed along to the public so you

the cost down I know you said before Bernie's like free college for everyone the problem with that solution as it pretends that college solves the employment problems again people and anyone who's coming out of college knows that that's not real the underemployment rate for recent college graduates today is 44% so you got like a 50/50 shot if you come out of college you're doing a job doesn't really require a degree and 94% of new jobs created right now our gig temporary or contractor jobs that don't have real passport or Healthcare benefits of the rest of it actually it might have been in that

the book that I was just telling you about Yuval Noah Harari 21 lessons for the 21st century I think he was talking about how many people plan on not being in the same job in 10 years because that job won't exist anymore versus what it used to be to be the people would think that they were going to get a job and they would stay with job and now they're planning that they're going to have to move that they're not going to be able to keep the same job and has automation kicks in this is obviously going to bottleneck it's going to get even to even worse yeah yeah completely so young to be really really adaptable and and have low cost structures and just be able to become entrepreneurs and I spent seven years trying to train young people to do just that but one of the things I've discovered is that where overemphasizing College

and what were under emphasizing is Technical vocational an apprenticeship work because a lot of that work believe or not it's actually really hard to automate like you know you've been talking to Autumn and air conditioning repair person on Plummer and anytime soon and for sure Craftsman people who build things mental health vocational training in Germany that's 59% give you a sense of what the the Gap can be so what we're doing is what overprescribing college were saying College College college for everyone it's not really working that well and then we're still treating people who are working in trades and everything is somehow you know like not in great careers with a lot of those prayers are actually really awesome and they pay great and they people enjoy them they're persistent right now we're going to automate away it's a lot easier to automate away a lot of repetitive cognitive work then it is non-repetitive manual work because like actually

robot digits you know it's like if you can imagine what it would take to have a robot plumber like I'm at your house I mean that stuff's really really tricky has a lot of fine motor work after like unscrew pipes and like stuff that's not going to get automated for a long time you know what is going to get on me did a lot of like entry-level kind of tasks a lot of Journalism tasks a lot of bookkeeping lot of stuff that college graduates think they're going to get a job in one of those jobs are going to disappear I was a corporate attorney for those five on Happy months and my friends are working on

why they can all tomato a lot of basic legal work and then like to not going to be there for it's often the problem of the parents giving them pressure to go into college as well because they don't want the kid to become a loser and if the kid you know like where I grew up in Boston if you went into the trades if you abandon like the idea of Higher Learning and going to college and just went right into like learning to be a carpenter or something like to have people look at you like you're selling yourself short but there's so many people that I know that went to school that just got University degrees and then they got out and they were fucked made it says so comment it's so common that they thought there was going to be this path

and this path to Sydney just once they got out or it was it was far far more difficult than was then they were led to believe if you look at it about 32% of Americans graduate from college right now and that levels been more or less constant for a long time it's not like hey I've got another 20% I could get into college like right now the College completion rate in six years about 59% so like four out of 10 people who start college or not graduating and 6 years A lot of them are just not going to finish ever so late. The people that have other possible to move to build those pads up and this is one reason why I'm So Into the freedom dividend instead of something like free college cuz why would you subsidize something that only get top third of the population is going to use you known and it's a highly inefficient costly system anyway like you have money into that you're much better off putting a thousand bucks a month every 18 year olds hands didn't they go to college great College Park sleep aid for they go to trade school great trade schools parsley paid for they start their own business they do something crazy

live like they want to do something to help that's great to like you can actually start building more varied pads and make it to that people don't feel like I need to get into this institution or else my life's going to be over now what are the primary concerns people have outside of what you're talking about so far with automation taking away jobs and and you know student loan debt in these things what are the other things you think they're going to have to talk about in order to get people take you really seriously I mean the hot-button issues you know what they all are it's like immigration and climate change is a really big one you know I mean I can talk about those at length numbers tonight my father and mother met as immigrants from Taiwan at UC Berkeley my father is a PhD in physics heat generated 69 us patents for GE and IBM playing over his career so I thought I'd like immigrants are awesome then we're going to come in and you know just make sure they would expect that just to look at me and say what I say

first it makes no sense to educate International students in US universities and then send them home to compete against us that makes no sense like they're going to come to staple a green card with a diploma and be like hey you got a diploma great news you can stay here and work cuz I personally know tons of awesome Internationals who would definitely help make the us more Dynamic and competitive that go home and start companies are you like I don't know like how that happened that's great for people come from a privileged background have the opportunity to come here and then become educated but what about people who are poor for trying to make it here from South America has available to for the approximately 12 million people who were here undocumented menu from from Mexico in Latin America would not like that you know frankly like you're not the profile I just described for the most part sew them because it's

people I mean like whole Regional economies would collapse like you can't do it practically like doesn't make any sense right number 2

is the you do nothing which is our current path and then you have massive problems too cuz they're constantly interacting with your schools in your hospitals and getting into car accidents in like you know it's like does not knowing who the heck is who is an untenable situation for any advanced Society so number three is you create a pathway to citizenship and then you integrate them into society but it's like a long-term path that takes a number of years and you need to keep your nose clean and pay taxes and work hard and do what seems to be the most feasible on board with that till they like you don't pay the political price and then they ran the other direction something so that is really the right path for people who are undocumented but I say to people a lot but the opposite of Donald Trump is an Asian guy who likes math

so Donald Trump's like build a wall and I'm like looking like I mean we got in for the Border like especially in a world where everyone every citizens getting a thousand bucks a month like you got in for Citron Gordon but the same time you know like people who are here they're making our communities a lot more Dynamic many of them mean at the high-end half of the Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are the immigrants are children of immigrants and that's true in a different way in terms of like the dynamism of these immigrant communities so what I say to people is like if I'm president people will see that you come to this country you work hard your son or daughter can become president knighted states now what do you do though in this scenario that you just described if someone comes here and they don't work hard and they don't keep your nose clean and they are still here and they're not a citizen yet so you know what operating the informal economy in the way that they have ended the truth is that even if we have this pathway there going to be

proportion of people who just do not trust us to be a lot of a lot of people that don't subscribe but that's where it is right now we're not making the situation actively worse we can at least improve the situation for a really significant proportion of them and you know the other situation would be tax revenue how many people that are here illegally you're not paying taxes I would imagine so enormous number to the formal economy cuz there's a lot of this cash going back and forth labor or work as a you know on construction sites or whatever whoever is willing to hire them and work for free rather with a free taxes

going on like that there are limits to you know like what sort of appeal you can have in terms of having people right right hand have a path to real Prosperity have it real path to citizenship would be very nice and it be enormous for them to bother them kids a lot of kids who are their life but but here to another issue I think you'll like it comes up on the campaign Trail is that what to do about marijuana and I'm for full legalization remove it from the federally controlled substance list and I would go a step further and pardon everyone who's in jail for a low-level nonviolent drug offense because it makes no sense to me to have people behind bars for things that are legal in parts of the country to my plan as President is on April 20th of 2021 I'm going to mass pardon everyone who's in jail for a non-violent drug later offend some of the high five of them on the way out and I'm to be very popular man that day going to be a lot of traveling to High V all those folks I know I'm going to have to go to a lot of places in Hi-Fi but I really want to high-five them jail

yeah I mean I would be the funniest freaking occasion so you know that's something that comes up that to me Nina is obvious that marijuana you know is an important remedy for many people were liking in various struggling with various like hell problems and everything else are friends were in that situation and that it's really much less dangerous than four examples I would like the opiates that have been getting prescribed for the same same things yeah what do you do about that that's a question that I have because I was just reading something about some approved drug that's more powerful than fentanyl which seems to me to be completely insane like we already have Fentanyl and you just you you make a mistake on whether you know things that happens with people that overdose is especially old people that are in pain when they're using fentanyl or using a dowel pin on a regular basis they sometimes forget if they took it

and you know look it's a fucken open I mean it did those they're very powerful and if you're high on that stuff and you forget whether or not you took it and you go and take it again you're dead yes and that that's a giant issue they're too damn powerful in the idea that you need something that's more powerful than that seems to be insane I agree with you it's it's irresponsible the entire opiate crisis was generated in part by the fact that the feds let Purdue Pharma just go crazy prescribing hundreds of thousands of Oxycontin prescriptions and that company management company got fined 635 million what sounds like a lot Until you realize they made like 16 billion so and those drop in the bucket right now some of the richest people in the country on the backs of American communities and it just keeps morphine cuz I went from oxy to heroin to Fentanyl and then you have people who are struggling with with this addiction so to me to me it was Federal negligence Unleashed this plague I mean you got to hold the sackler's and Purdue Pharma

John Travolta's Lily now they're profiting from one of the treatment drugs it's really obscene what they're doing they're just like a my non-addictive wonder drug turns out of cause a super plague of lethal addiction 400,000 mericans but I'm going to sell you a new Dragon flight you know trying to make money on the back end to so you got to get as much money as we possibly can from that family in particular but then you have to make resources available and try and get people to depend on these drugs last like on the front end from the doctor in this is like why you prescribing like that these hope it's been like as a doctor I recorded my book where he's like you've never seen a lethality rate for something prescribed for like a non life-threatening condition literally like a non-trivial percentage of people you describe it I'll get to it will be dead and five years and you know for in the hospital wasn't so

so we have to make treatment resource available but there's a very human problem it's not a money problem like you know you can throw money at some problems and it works this thing we should throw money at to try and give people a fighting chance but then you have to support the people coming out cuz it's a brutal brutal process trying to become whole and healthy if you're an addict it is an unbelievably brutal process and its I have family members are affected by it and people with hurt backs that got on these pills and next thing you know they can't get off of them and it's just it's devastating and it's so, it's it's just all three were Country property for nothing I had my nose fixed I had a deviated septum and other doctor prescribed me two different kinds of opiates and I said I'm not in any pain and he said yeah but you could be so here and I'm like but I don't think that's a good idea and I don't even want anyting he is well just take these just in case I want to tell you I am not playing tough guy just didn't hurt is a little Annoying my nose feels weird

I didn't need fucking opiates seriously man they just willing like he go come out

just take a little of that and I am a guarantee for you that there incentives drive them more towards dispensing those rather than those drugs and it's a large part because the incentive structure of our healthcare system is so it's like if I do more stuff if I give you more stuff I make more money if I decide you don't need it I make less money and that is one of the things that's driving us all into this this unhealthy is that if you went to a doctor who originally was like you know I don't think you need this stuff like that that would be the way many of them would see the problem if their paycheck was unrelated to the amount of activity that they were doing yeah when you look at all the issues that plagued this country and you think about the possibility you actually winning becoming president and then you look at what happens to president when they win and the amount of just aging happens to them to worry about that while our agents age very well

set back on for you let you know when I'm a married and let you know we've got two kids so I don't think she's going anywhere they could be like kind of tough for her to start over at this point I mean one of my my nightmare scenarios is I win and then like I can't get stuff done the way that cuz that's it for the other since you talked about this to we're good people go in a government to get stuck like flies and Amber cuz this system is designed to keep you from getting anything done but one thing I will say is that if you imagine a scenario where the Asian man who wants to give everyone a thousand bucks a month becomes president knighted states in 2021 and was going to know how I want it'll be alright guys its dividend time and then Democrats will be like yeah I like money for families that's great and here's their the great thing Joe is that the Republicans will look at him be like wait a minute this isn't it transfer for rural areas for red states on the interior am I really going to stand in the way and you can imagine

every state would be into it we can actually get this done this is a bipartisan thing it's it's not left or right it's forward and keep in mind the state that has been demonstrated blazkowicz the Deep Red conservative state is Republican Governor that passed the plan in the first place he said who'd you rather get the oil money that government is just going to screw it up or or you the people of Alaska and then give us please what's an app to incentivize people to support the idea of drilling and some controversial areas though nothing's been infected 37 years is wildly popular so I'm done because I think it's going to be really popular among not just progressives but also Independence Libertarians like Milton Friedman is the patron saint of libertarian economist's love this plan because of what Libertarians and

conservatives hate is government making people's decisions what they like is economic freedom and autonomy I just spoke at a Libertarian conference like libertycon and was like guys like the freedom dividend would help people enjoy actual economic freedom because you got a thousand bucks a month like that makes you more for you to do all sorts of things like you can like you know so you can like make better choices and as long as the government is completely like and it's like what you do is your business so this can actually become something we can get done the freedom dividends a great name to us like the Patriot Act Like a Man Too excited Freedom we're all about Freedom this is got to be taking up a tremendous amount of your time like what are you doing anything else in addition to doing this or you setting aside everything else in your life other than your family obligations

two jobs man one help accelerate Society to try and deal with this historic transition wiring and to stay married there's only things I'm about wow that's powerful path when you're looking at the opposition and you looking all the other people that are running for president and wonder whether or not they're going to be there by the time the elections roll around what it what are you saying it's really interesting Joe holy cow the one of the funnest things are running for president is you run into all the other candidates on the trail in Iowa and New Hampshire sounds like just hanging out backstage with like the gang it's so it. Fun it is weird sometimes but I really liked most of them and I'm just like everything depends upon who I click with best cuz we're just going to be on the trail all the time together so having met a bunch of them I got to say most of the candidates are really genuine Patriots just want to try and do something positively see the

just heading in the wrong direction I could work with most all of them who I think's going to be there in the end man it's really interesting one reason I like I will say that apparently the mainstream press had it out for Bernie last time where they were just going to like I have a friend who worked in the media and they were like just thought you know need cat burning something going on where like certain corporate media companies have certain candidate they kind of want to tip the scales for a little people that you want to like to pit against will they thought that he was going to get in the way of Hillary winning is at the idea they were in the Hilary camp for sure that I was also the DNC which is now on the record so many the DNC is turned a totally differently for the dnc's like we're not going to do anything that like what they did was a disaster

yeah it was bought something typically end like perception wise the disaster for them said this time I got to say and I'm at the team is turned over almost entirely like it's almost totally different people and then the media we have the sense that you know they're they're still feeling out who they're going to try and put the thumb on the scale for you want to know something is really stupid but it changed my opinion of him he was being grilled by someone with the airport with a camera I just pretending to talk on the phone but you can tell it wasn't really on the phone and I saw that I was like no you can't do that you can't do that you can say I'm not giving impromptu interview thank you very much and keep walking like if you want to interview me do it through the correct channels but he didn't do that he pretended to be on the phone it's a weird thing cuz if you're willing to do that like that's just that's it's deceptive especially if you can actually see the deception

it's like he's it's like you can see his text messages tell you're not on the phone and he keeps walking it's like I know that's a stupid thing to it but it's like huh we all know we all details and it's like I think one reason I'm so grateful for this opportunity is this like you know like you actually can get a sense of different people in different environments and it does end up impacting your your perception so many people made decisions on much lesser datapoints than that I'm sure I'll remember what the fox's name from Vermont Howard Dean the dean scream every 15 Hampshire that scream killed him sanctum remember the Chappelle show parody this poster parody of that was hysterical

dr. It was just because it was a lot like as a person who works in front of audiences a lot when you're yelling into a microphone like you here like especially if you don't have monitors in front of you what you hear is like everything you hear the crowd screaming you hear everything I love you yelling at that microphone you're not realizing what it sounds like as a recording live with him is like

and that was it one scream imagine imagine that one scream literally changed the course of that man's life wanted him and also is the course of a Nation by the crazy I don't know if that would happen today I think especially post Trump one thing that has happened is were willing to forgive so much more in some ways and some ways no man I mean I feel like you know like something some people more forgiving than others for different things I'm sure there's certainly it varies but it would be interesting to imagine what what the dean scream would result in today I hopefully I'm not the person that test it out so what's next now you're trying to elevate your profile you're trying to make people aware of your platform and what your how you're running what what is next it's good fun man I'm enjoying running for president

that's a great thing to hear ya like it it's so one thing is that when you talk to the Americans and I like Varela Iowa or Manchester New Hampshire looks like that the stuff that you might imagine if I got people that know it's like really good honest genuine people just trying to make their lives better people I really love him now with our Union was fun hanging out with these Union metal workers the other day in New Hampshire has like a any like robots going on flat bar to reinforce a bridge now they're bringing a robot does it overnight and then they're like they're like a good for you guys you don't have to do this and then we're like we just lost a freaking trip so then when I go in I talk to him about what's going on with the economy they're like oh man yeah I like yeah that's like a real problem and unions been losing for years like they don't know it like that you know memberships gone in half

so just on the campaign Trail making the case into two different people I was on The Daily Show last week that's going to film pretty soon I'm the next big Benchmark for the campaign is the Democratic primary debates in June where they're going to bring all the candidates up in this is something the DNC happily seems like they're being really really open about which that it's not like you need to you know like like I was a particular thing so I'm very confident that it will be on that debate stage and then we can just keep on making the case the American people when you going to do something like that how do you prepare do you do have someone throw fake questions at you and you practice and practice the answers do you work with a coach what time does how do you do that for a given the enormity the occasion I'm sure we will have something like that but I'm on a double back in the conversation you had recently with the guy name Lawrence lessig it on campaign Finance reform

the girl is in a related problems in our society and in my opinion the Automation Way of his like driving a lot of them because making people less functional is making people less able to focus on the big problems in the future and it part of it is that our political systems held captive by corporations and billion like Mega wealthy individuals and like the average voter feels like my vote doesn't matter and so you know I was talking to Lawrence lessig is like he had we fix it I heard your conversation with him and some of that solution would be we give every American adult a hundred dollars democracy dollars that can only be contributed to a political campaign and then you end up counterbalancing and washing out a lot of the corporate money because all the sudden if I get 10,000 people on board with me that's like a freaking million bucks no that's very interesting idea I like that a lot because that the problem Joe is that a lot of a regulatory proteins right now or like the negative approach it's like don't do this don't do that and the fact is a lot of the time

word till I actually like regulate away a lot of the stuff and so Laurence was like you know what let's just put money in the people's hands I can only go into the political system and then it makes it so if someone like me appeals to humans then I get money as opposed to making it so that the people in the money are like two different sides of the equation and I got to say we were talking as a team about being here in like you are like the biggest audience of just about any media platform in the country right now like bigger than cable news bigger than anything that happened to me you're like a you're the primary voice of reason right now in our society man is ridiculous I mean the one step up and take that please I think it's for the time being brother what I was saying was that like if if people that listen to this conversation donate ten twenty bucks to my campaign that like 10 million people going to listen to this that's like a hundred to two hundred million dollars and that's enough for me to go

want to break the the money system I can go in there and just say alright let's get money out of politics in the way we're going to do it as when I actually just give people money to be able to restore democracy in a real way to have a patreon page racing what's up my website yang2020. Com and so are average donations only $19 so we joked that my fans are even cheaper than Bernie's

is it the thing with people as he got to make it easy make it easily have an Amazon one-click button for a while also want to say one of the thing I did I think that will entertain the heck out of you I'm giving a thousand bucks a month to a family in New Hampshire and a family of Iowa just out of my own pocket just to illustrate you know $1,000 a month I'll actually like do you and your household good and I got to take these people we had a bunch of submissions online for New Hampshire and I hope we're still taking some Mission so if you know people in Iowa that could use a thousand bucks a month just go to 92029 time nominate them and then what will take someone and there's no obligation so it's out of my own pocket and there's no obligation so you have to see was like well you know no problem is just a psychoactive philanthropy or like you know what gift front and then a family in South in Georgia was so touched by my campaign that there now is applying at the

bucks a month to a family in South Carolina and other Martin Luther King who is four basic income so we're really inverting is mindset of like scarcity and take take take and being like look like plenty to go around would like the richest and most advanced Society in the history of the world and we can make lies better just by coming together as a people there's nothing stopping the majority of citizens in a democracy from voting ourselves a dividend I love the idea man I really do and I love the idea of trying to find solutions to this obvious issue that's pending and it just seems like we're not going to escape I mean it seems like automation is coming there's no way to get around it no way

there's no way around it for sure I mean it's here with us already it's inevitable and the danger we're in right now is that a we don't respond to it then there's going to be a lot of a lot of anger about the changes that are coming our way and so a bunch of techies are actually supporting my campaign because a lot of techies are not jerks they're just like I'm doing my job I'm just like you know my job actually just attempts to resolve other people losing their job Brian and so what I say to them and they agree it's like this is enlightened self-interest for us all it's like progress should be something we're excited about there is a world where we're celebrating the fact that the truckers are getting liberated from their trucks because that's a really difficult punishing job to try and make it so that people are actually able to be happy about the inevitable you know it's as a quote in my book Bismarck was like if we're going to go through a revolution

rather undertake it then undergo it you know it's like like if the revolution's coming then we need to get in front of it and start making it work for us instead of just waiting for it to tear us apart well I love the idea and it would be amazing if you want I mean the really would be fasting and like I said I've done a complete one-eighty on the idea of universal basic income particular once I start talking to Elon about it and he was saying that it it's inevitable that you're going to need something like that to do that is coming let's say you go to early what is the downside well let's see you alleviate Untold pointless human misery and you have more time to build institutions and help us adapt yeah that's a downside of you go to early what's the downside of you go too late

the downside if you go too late is literal disintegration and catastrophe cuz it's not like Society will magically reorder itself if you're like okay guys were a little bit late to this but like now we're going to start like putting sex in the people's hands look so the incentive to go early are a pretty much all the incentives it's like going to late is literally Society ending so if you accept what you wanted which I agree with that look is inevitable then there's no point in trying to like time it particularly if you accept the fact that all of the signs you would expect if we were displacing labor already there man leaving the workforce like drug overdoses video games like I like it's all right there in front of us if you just like take the Rock in like flip it over and the thing I'm going to say you know a friend of mine and Eastern said is that our government is terrible at most things but it is excellent at sending large numbers of checks to large numbers of people

Copley and reliably we have to lean into one of the only core competencies our government has that we can trust and then it will let us make our own decisions like this is very much about human empowerment and the alternative is too terrible to to contemplate last question because I guess no discussion of presidential policy and the deposit ability of Someone Like You running this country's how do you feel about international relations and the obvious issues of dealing with other countries and what's going on with China and Russia and the interference of our democracy and all the different various issues that we've experienced over the last is particularly the last couple years with Russia and I were talking about this before we went on air

when I'm president I will say look Prussia I get it we have tampered with other people's elections for years and decades like we America done that you've done it cost for the last number of years it is going to stop right now and if we have any credible evidence that you are tampering with our information our democracy will take that as an act of hostility and aggression and we will retaliate in some way that will make your life very very painful and inconvenient and and the people United States will support me on this and so we can hear is you're drop-dead date like turn off the box and if we find that your boss are still going after this date I will just bring the evidence the American people and then we will act and you will not like it one bit know if if I'm thinking 89% of Americans would that be like how are we just like looking at it being like what are we going to do what are we going to do the end of this one I actually feel a little bit for the tech companies because it's very difficult for the tech companies to to prevent

almost impossible almost almost impossible to identify and if you go back to Sam Harris's podcast who were discussing which is called the war of information information war war of information recent podcast for the last couple weeks they detail how there is essentially just giant groups of people that work for the Russian government that pretend to be people that are involved in Black lives matter pretend to be people that are involved in Texas culture Southern Culture and they're just sowing seeds of argument and end descent and they are laughing their asses and making funny memes like some of their memes are really hilarious but to them this is the greatest Roi they've ever seen didn't want to watch I like return-on-investment listen to the doctor Pandora YouTube I don't have a man hanger I have a normal freaking house so like

money like but they found like this underbelly they can ask freaking slice into and so they they've spent best as soon as I can low tens of millions of dollars and it's caused us how much damage how much are a real impact I mean you can't even put a dollar figure on it so you have to just say like look I get the tech companies are going to try but they're not going to be able to pull it off so just like go on at the stade like the world and say hey this is the Russia but anyone else same thing like if you tamper with our democracy we are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks and if we're not quite sure we're still going to come down on you like a ton of bricks like I don't need like a hundred percent certainty on days I need like you know like a legal standard I need like 80 85% and the American people would be like about time because you know if we can trust ourselves or each other what we're seeing and this is before deepfakes in the rest of it starts hitting like like if you're actually going to believe in democracy then you have to start protecting our information is fast

possible and you also in my mind have to start and this is a local issue but I'm in New Hampshire and Iowa talking about this stuff their local newspapers are all dying like that wasn't a local papers is winking out of existence because they used to rely on classified ad there are no classified ads anymore it's all Craigslist and so they all died and if you believe in democracy how the heck can anyone vote on anything if they have to tow it there a lot of interrelated issues and one thing I'm saying is we look we had a happy time where local newspapers were supported by classified ads it's over now but we're still a democracy you still need some information to vote so we need to try and find new ways for you to get quality information like that that's torn our hands up and be my guest the Russians are going to let you know like in like just missing for months with Bots and I guess all the local newspapers going to die like you said like these are problems and we have to start sounding them if you still believe that democracy is the best form of government and that's what we're going to carry portaluca obviously have to believe like you have to go with

that as your model and so it's all interrelated but we have to start thinking much much bigger about what we can get done because things are slipping away things are trending in a terrible terrible direction will Andrew good luck to you you're a good man I wish you well thank you for being here I think your message is excellent and I hope you really make an impact that comes out when you can do a special JRE from the White House and that would be a blast appreciate it man thank you everyone for your thank you to the cash app the number one app and finance download the cash app and enter the referral code Joe Rogan all one word five hours ago to you $5 will go to support our good friend Justin Brands fight for the Forgotten charity helping to build Wells for the pygmies the Congo and $5 will also go to UFC fighter re-board son's medical bills

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